8th ed CHAOS tactica

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**Gibs55**

What Daemon vehicles are worrth taking? There is a spell or stratagem can't remember which that lets you buff their chances to hit in combat or shootinh.

**BlaxicanX**

Preds are nice. Land Riaders are nice if you have something to put inside it.

I really want to like the daemon engines but BS4+ is a total kick in the nuts- most of them suffer from "weak BS and low volume of attacks" syndrome.

The Defiler could make a nice murder-bunker if you support it with a prescience sorcerer. With the points reduction, it's only 180 points for a Defiler armed with: battlecannon, reaper autocannon, defiler claws and defiler scourge. You can even toss a combi-weapon on there without having to swap something out.

That actually seems really good now that I think about it. I mean, for 180 points it's got like twice the firepower of a tricked out Leman Russ and is about as durable. You should basically never move, but you don't have to as its guns all have decent range, and it makes a nice counter-assault unit too with the scourge. 6 strength 12 Ap3 Dam3 attacks isn't too bad, especially with prescience.

**Eldenfirefly**

Lord of skulls is a Demon Engine.

Packs a pretty mean shooting phase too.

If you have its 12 shot Hades gratling

**Matt.Kingsley**

Kytan is the ultimate Daemon Engine - give that thing the stratagem and watch pretty much anything it touches turn into a fine red mist in a single phase.

**Eldenfirefly**

Kytan Ravager is 514 points for a 8 shot Kytan Gatling cannon and 22 wounds.

A Lord of skulls after our new codex comes out is 607 points when equipped with a Ichor cannon and a Hades Gatling cannon. The Hades Gatling shoots 12 shots while the Ichor is range 48, shoots d6 shots, has ap -4 and does d3 damage. The lord of skulls also has 28 wounds.

Personally, I think after the points drop, I would take Lord of skulls any day now over the Kytan Ravager. And if demonforge causes a Kytan Engine to turn anything it trains its gun on into a red mist. Then, what more if you use demonforge on a Lord of Skulls... lol

**Matt.Kingsley**

True yeah, I'd forgotten the Lord of Skulls was getting a points drop.

Also I was more talking about the Kytan's Axe lol, but then the LoS has the exact same weapon.

**McGibs**

Forgeworld decimators, greater plague drones, plague hulk, blood slaughterer and our good friend the brass scorpion are also daemon engines which got hilarious with the deamonforge stratagem.

**Cephalobeard**

Do we know if Sorcerers were adjusted in points at all?

**str00dles1**

Any way to get Zhufor the Impaler and Kahrn working together?

He has the World Eaters, Skulltakers keywords. Would like to use him cause of the larger Aura. Plus he can stop a spell possibly where Kharn cant. I'm guessing though the best way is to use him with squad of termies and deepstrike down. and youd need to make the termies skulltakers and not world eaters?

**Sorix**

How are World Eaters in the new Codex? Thinking about starting a army.

**GrafWattenburg**

I think I'll be running my guys as Alpha Legion for the sweet WL traits and -1 to hit is just great. Do Decimators have the Helbrute keyword? I forgot my FW book somewhere so I can't check, but getting -2 to hit (AL trait + Changeling, because they have both the Legion and Mark of Chaos + Daemon) would be very nice.

**Gordon Shumway**

GrafWattenburg wrote:
I think I'll be running my guys as Alpha Legion for the sweet WL traits and -1 to hit is just great. Do Decimators have the Helbrute keyword? I forgot my FW book somewhere so I can't check, but getting -2 to hit (AL trait + Changeling, because they have both the Legion and Mark of Chaos + Daemon) would be very nice.

None of the FW engines do in the book. The FAQ gave it to contemptors, levis, and Doritos only.

**Leth**

str00dles1 wrote:
Any way to get Zhufor the Impaler and Kahrn working together?

He has the World Eaters, Skulltakers keywords. Would like to use him cause of the larger Aura. Plus he can stop a spell possibly where Kharn cant. I'm guessing though the best way is to use him with squad of termies and deepstrike down. and youd need to make the termies skulltakers and not world eaters?

Problem is that Zhufors aura keyword(like Arkos) only works on their specific legion/warband. So Kharn and Zhufor wont overlap, however a lot of it will be down to if they get successor chaptor like rules. I am hoping that they do as it will be annoying to be limited to just being named 1 thing or another.

**mrhappyface**

Sorix wrote:
How are World Eaters in the new Codex? Thinking about starting a army.

Well we have THE best cc unit in the game and one of the best legion traits in the game. I want to try out Zerkers, Khorne Terminators and the new Champion with lords along with my new Fire Raptor and my Night lords psykers for some sweet buffs.

Psychic buffed world eaters are looking to be a top tier army.

**Arkaine**

mrhappyface wrote:
Psychic buffed world eaters are looking to be a top tier army.

But don't forget about their Legion Weakness trait.

"When a World Eater is buffed by a friendly psyker, roll a d6. On a 2+, your opponent becomes enraged, shouts "HERETIC!", and declares Exterminatus, flipping the game table with all your models on it."

**mrhappyface**

Arkaine wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
Psychic buffed world eaters are looking to be a top tier army.

But don't forget about their Legion Weakness trait.

"When a World Eater is buffed by a friendly psyker, roll a d6. On a 2+, your opponent becomes enraged, shouts "HERETIC!", and declares Exterminatus, flipping the game table with all your models on it."

Khorne does not care from whence the broken model tears flow, only that they do.

**Arachnofiend**

I think Forgefiends are worth another look with the new daemon engine stratagem. You'd only want to use one, but with reroll everything it should pack a pretty serious punch even with BS4+.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Arachnofiend wrote:
I think Forgefiends are worth another look with the new daemon engine stratagem. You'd only want to use one, but with reroll everything it should pack a pretty serious punch even with BS4+.

With rerolling all hits that's still just 6 shots on average.

**Ecdain**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Now that Blood letters have been reduced from 9 points to 7. Summoning a whole horde of them in for a devastating charge might be a thing. 10 blood letters aren't so scary. But 20 or 30 charging in is definitely scary. What do you guys think? Is there a way to make this work? Maybe turn one, charge a sorceror on bike upfield with a bike escort. Turn two, summon in a big group of blood letters for a devastating charge.

They may a way to exploit weaknesses in the opponents line. Like maybe the opponent sees you only have a bike unit with sorceror on bike on the left flank and so, he doesn't put much there. Then, turn two, he gets hit on the left flank with 20 to 30 blood letters, with the bikes providing support fire.

Black legion bikes can shoot even rapid fire in assault. So, you can turbo boost a group of bikes and said bike sorceror 20 inches upfield turn one. The potential reach of a summoned in blood letter group turn two is potentially really really big.

Also, now that warp smiths are much reduced in points. Might be worthwhile considering how to make them work. The biggest baddest thing Chaos has (which is not a titan) is the Lord of skulls, which has incidentally also gotten 100 points cheaper. The thing has 28 wounds with auto regen 1 wound. But if we also have 2 warpsmiths behind it. Then that's 1 + 2d3 hp regen every turn! If you don't do enough damage to kill off the said Lord of skulls, its going to keep on going, and going and going! lol And of course, the huge demon engine will provide support to the two warp smiths near it. Charge up the board while shooting for all you are worth with 1 cp demonforge strategems. Once you get within range, even the warpsmiths can get into the action with their flamers and melta guns. With warp smiths being so cheap now, you can even go 3 or 4 smiths. The LOS can be the lynchpin behind the whole army and focal point. Very awesome narrative wise, since this huge demon engine will be charging up the field, laying down devastating firepower everywhere, and despite taking horrendous damage, the smiths behind it and its own infernal regeneration keeps it going (plus it gets more and more attacks as it gets wounded.) lol.

While the Lord of skulls is a Khorne Daemon Engine, it is a massive Daemon Engine, and Iron Warriors worship all titans. Since cult troops can appear in other legions now, having a Lord of skulls which is the lynchpin of an Iron Warriors Army with warpsmiths supporting it sounds pretty fluffy to me?

I would love this idea and would already have done it if the warpsmith didn't specifically say a vehicle can only be healed or hurt by a warpsmith once per turn. Doesn't matter how many you have, you can only heal D3 wounds a turn once sadly :(

**Sersi**

I got confirmation from the guy who did the first video review. Cults are now Elites only. Forge the narrative confirmed the change as well. Their Legion rules do not change their unit type. Which makes sense I guess GW wants to make all units viable. So CSM will be getting used now?

**GreaterGood?**

Sersi wrote:
I got confirmation from the guy who did the first video review. Cults are now Elites only. Their Legion does not change their unit type. Which makes sense I guess GW wants to make all units viable. So CSM will be getting used now?

I'm not sure I see a use for CSM's. Even if they were the only troops in the codex. They are generalists in a specialists game.

**Sersi**

Oh I agree with you, even with the legion traits they aren't worth taking over cultists. It really screws over the battalion detachment. I can't see needing 3 units of CSM or Cultists for that matter.

Its a real shame that taking daemons interferes with the Legion Traits.

**ochobits**

Sersi wrote:
Oh I agree with you, even with the legion traits they aren't worth taking over cultists. It really screws over the battalion detachment. I can't see needing 3 units of CSM or Cultists for that matter.

If they are the only way to get CP's, yes, people are getting them, or at least I am - 10 cultists and 2 5-man CSM squads is not that expensive. With the new stratagems CP's are likeley going to be one of the most important resources for each army. Sure they are not the best units around, but I think you can still make them do their job and get those 3 CP's for the Batallion Detachment.

**Mazzyx**

Thing to remember is we can use the Daemons for those troop slots as well. Horrors, daemonettes, bloodletters, and plaguebearers are not terrible troops and are pretty cheap.

My CSM so far this edition have performed well if I build them for specific rolls. Be it back line guards or upfront cheap assaults with flamers.

**Red Corsair**

Arachnofiend wrote:
I think Forgefiends are worth another look with the new daemon engine stratagem. You'd only want to use one, but with reroll everything it should pack a pretty serious punch even with BS4+.

Better off with a decimator equipped with two butcher canons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreaterGood? wrote:
Sersi wrote:
I got confirmation from the guy who did the first video review. Cults are now Elites only. Their Legion does not change their unit type. Which makes sense I guess GW wants to make all units viable. So CSM will be getting used now?

I'm not sure I see a use for CSM's. Even if they were the only troops in the codex. They are generalists in a specialists game.

Obsec dude, they will definitely be solid. They are specialists at the mission which is how you win games aside from the tabling, best two ways to win are to go balls deep at damage and hope to table or focus on the mission. Folks have been dumping on the black legion and words bearers but they are pretty solid for running a metric feth ton of marines. Remember the average game is now 2k and marines with gear cost a lot less. You can drop a serious amount of bodies if you felt so inclined and it would actually be solid at missions.

**SilverAlien**

You couldn't mix demon troops in a CSM detachment without losing all the benefits of legion tactics etc, though this might get faq'd later.

I think it'll be another edition of cultists over CSM though. With the price drop and stratagem they can really be hard to remove, particularly in large units with one of the morale immunity buffs.

I'm particularly liking the idea of an EC battalion mixed with a BL spearhead. Abby sits in back with tanks and a large screen of melee EC cultists, plus the plasma terminators+sorc and lord option. Seems like a solid combo. Maybe toss in a couple msu cultists to move up the field.

**techsoldaten**

Mazzyx wrote:
Thing to remember is we can use the Daemons for those troop slots as well. Horrors, daemonettes, bloodletters, and plaguebearers are not terrible troops and are pretty cheap.

My CSM so far this edition have performed well if I build them for specific rolls. Be it back line guards or upfront cheap assaults with flamers.

We always could include Daemons in a list, they all share a faction keyword - Chaos. It's just that everything in a faction must share the LEGION keyword to get legion traits.

That said, I see more value in summoning them to the battlefield instead of walking them up the board. Any CSM character can do it.

**DarklyDreaming**

Have you noticed how strong the Obliterators are now? They should cost like a full laser predator, but if you do the math, they shoot better against any target. With the teleportarium you avoid the apha strike predators suffers, and being 3 models, is so easy to put them in cover... and the slannesh stratagem, my god.

**Arkaine**

techsoldaten wrote:
Mazzyx wrote:
Thing to remember is we can use the Daemons for those troop slots as well. Horrors, daemonettes, bloodletters, and plaguebearers are not terrible troops and are pretty cheap.

My CSM so far this edition have performed well if I build them for specific rolls. Be it back line guards or upfront cheap assaults with flamers.

We always could include Daemons in a list, they all share a faction keyword - Chaos. It's just that everything in a faction must share the LEGION keyword to get legion traits.

That said, I see more value in summoning them to the battlefield instead of walking them up the board. Any CSM character can do it.

Everything in a DETACHMENT must share the legion keyword, not faction. This is an important distinction since tournament lists are generally permitted 3 detachments. You can get 3 completely different legion traits active at the same time in your list just by splitting them up.

**techsoldaten**

Arkaine wrote:
techsoldaten wrote:
Mazzyx wrote:
Thing to remember is we can use the Daemons for those troop slots as well. Horrors, daemonettes, bloodletters, and plaguebearers are not terrible troops and are pretty cheap.

My CSM so far this edition have performed well if I build them for specific rolls. Be it back line guards or upfront cheap assaults with flamers.

We always could include Daemons in a list, they all share a faction keyword - Chaos. It's just that everything in a faction must share the LEGION keyword to get legion traits.

That said, I see more value in summoning them to the battlefield instead of walking them up the board. Any CSM character can do it.

Everything in a DETACHMENT must share the legion keyword, not faction. This is an important distinction since tournament lists are generally permitted 3 detachments. You can get 3 completely different legion traits active at the same time in your list just by splitting them up.

Hmmm.

I know the units in a detachment can't get legion traits unless they all share the same legion keyword. But are you saying the rules prohibit having a detachment with units that don't share a legion keyword?