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Mazzyx wrote:
Thing to remember is we can use the Daemons for those troop slots as well. Horrors, daemonettes, bloodletters, and plaguebearers are not terrible troops and are pretty cheap.

My CSM so far this edition have performed well if I build them for specific rolls. Be it back line guards or upfront cheap assaults with flamers.

The problem with daemons though is they don't have the <Legion> keyword. So they don't count to the requirement to run a Legion.

Pretty sure you can use the index entries for troop zerkers and troop noise marines still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for daemon troops just use a battalion with x2 princes/or cavalry lords they don't benefit from legion traits anyway then take the juicy elites/fast attack/heavy support in a other detachment.

 Rydria wrote:
Pretty sure you can use the index entries for troop zerkers and troop noise marines still.

Why do you think that? You can't pick and choose the rules you use, always the updated rules.

Space marines can use any unit entry in the index that isn't in the codex. There is no unit entry for troop noise marines or troop berserkers so it is still a legal datasheet.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Pretty sure you can use the index entries for troop zerkers and troop noise marines still.

Why do you think that? You can't pick and choose the rules you use, always the updated rules.

What he said....only the most recent data slate is valid. The index only supplements where there is no data slate for the unit in the codex.

You could argue that the data slates for cult-units-as-troops and cult-units-as-elites are separate entities (that's how they are in the Index after all).

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:
Thing to remember is we can use the Daemons for those troop slots as well. Horrors, daemonettes, bloodletters, and plaguebearers are not terrible troops and are pretty cheap.

My CSM so far this edition have performed well if I build them for specific rolls. Be it back line guards or upfront cheap assaults with flamers.

We always could include Daemons in a list, they all share a faction keyword - Chaos. It's just that everything in a faction must share the LEGION keyword to get legion traits.

That said, I see more value in summoning them to the battlefield instead of walking them up the board. Any CSM character can do it.

Everything in a DETACHMENT must share the legion keyword, not faction. This is an important distinction since tournament lists are generally permitted 3 detachments. You can get 3 completely different legion traits active at the same time in your list just by splitting them up.

Hmmm.

I know the units in a detachment can't get legion traits unless they all share the same legion keyword. But are you saying the rules prohibit having a detachment with units that don't share a legion keyword?

What? No, what are you reading? I'm saying acquiring the legion traits only applies to a single detachment sharing the common legion keyword. If you want to add Daemons to your list without losing your legion benefits, they simply need to be in their own detachment. Segregating the two will ensure their keywords don't interfere and still allow you to cheese up your lists with benefits.

Arachnofiend wrote:
You could argue that the data slates for cult-units-as-troops and cult-units-as-elites are separate entities (that's how they are in the Index after all).

If GW don't FAQ that WE Zerkers are troops i probably will end up argueing that, I just got my Zerker horde!

Excuse my ignorance but the codex isn't out yet, right? Where was it stated that world eaters don't get berserker troops?

Hey, I want my Noise Marines as troops to but that's some serious rules lawyering to claim they're separate units. That's clearly not what's intended. I'm hoping for an FAQ though as well. We should all ask on their Facebook page.

the_trooper wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but the codex isn't out yet, right? Where was it stated that world eaters don't get berserker troops?

It's because, when people flipped through the codex (people who got it early) there were no entries for cult troops like there were in the index.

However, now people are saying that cult units are troops in their legion armies (something from Frontline Gaming).

 mrhappyface wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but the codex isn't out yet, right? Where was it stated that world eaters don't get berserker troops?

It's because, when people flipped through the codex (people who got it early) there were no entries for cult troops like there were in the index.

However, now people are saying that cult units are troops in their legion armies (something from Frontline Gaming).

On a side note, I enjoy the combination of the divisiveness of cult units not being troops and the divisiveness of your avatar.

EDIT Good post / avatar combo

the_trooper wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but the codex isn't out yet, right? Where was it stated that world eaters don't get berserker troops?

At least two different people with reviewer copies of the codex in hand have told me they are elites only now. No reason for them to lie about.

the_trooper wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but the codex isn't out yet, right? Where was it stated that world eaters don't get berserker troops?

It's because, when people flipped through the codex (people who got it early) there were no entries for cult troops like there were in the index.

However, now people are saying that cult units are troops in their legion armies (something from Frontline Gaming).

On a side note, I enjoy the combination of the divisiveness of cult units not being troops and the divisiveness of your avatar.

EDIT Good post / avatar combo

Don't knock the Nige, the party he campaigned for weren't the most inspiring but damn: tell me that face doesn't doesn't inspire!

Here's what GW said about dataslates being updated by new codices:

“Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.”

 mrhappyface wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Excuse my ignorance but the codex isn't out yet, right? Where was it stated that world eaters don't get berserker troops?

It's because, when people flipped through the codex (people who got it early) there were no entries for cult troops like there were in the index.

However, now people are saying that cult units are troops in their legion armies (something from Frontline Gaming).

FLG has better knowledge on the intent of the rules than anyone outside GW themselves, so I'd go with what they say. Even if the RAW currently is that cult troops are no longer troops I'd just take it as FAQ fodder and continue to play the proper way (because honestly, cult legions not getting their special units as troops is stupid. Would that extend to Death Guard and Thousand Sons, who can't even take baseline CSM?).

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/08/06/chaos-space-marines-8th-ed-codex-overview/

Considering that their is a written rule, not just data slates, in the Index that says for example Emperor's Children can take Noise Marines as troops that rule either is in the EC children section or still counts.

The could of not separated the data slates like they did in index which is stupid if they don't have a written two sentences that mark bezerker horde or masters of kakophoni and so on.

Knowing GW they could of probably overlooked that and will have to FAQ it. Hopefully on Saturday as we are a few weeks out from like NOVA here and such.

Edit:

Looked the FLG link above. It is in the comments but he says you can still take cult units as troops for your legion.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Kytan Ravager is 514 points for a 8 shot Kytan Gatling cannon and 22 wounds.

A Lord of skulls after our new codex comes out is 607 points when equipped with a Ichor cannon and a Hades Gatling cannon. The Hades Gatling shoots 12 shots while the Ichor is range 48, shoots d6 shots, has ap -4 and does d3 damage. The lord of skulls also has 28 wounds.

Personally, I think after the points drop, I would take Lord of skulls any day now over the Kytan Ravager. And if demonforge causes a Kytan Engine to turn anything it trains its gun on into a red mist. Then, what more if you use demonforge on a Lord of Skulls... lol

Kytan Ravager simply does not have enough wounds/survivability to justify 514 points. The model is amazing, however 22 wounds disappear very quickly, plus you want it in combat to use its full potential. Its also Khorne so you cannot give it a 5+++ feel no pain from Slannesh or -1 to hit from Nurgle. After the Lord of Skulls points change it would be nice to see FW follow with a reduction for the Kytan.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Have you noticed how strong the Obliterators are now? They should cost like a full laser predator, but if you do the math, they shoot better against any target. With the teleportarium you avoid the apha strike predators suffers, and being 3 models, is so easy to put them in cover... and the slannesh stratagem, my god.

Thanks! Your comment made me take a look at them again. Wow... 4 shots per Obliterator now really might make a difference. Their firepower is effectively doubled now from before. Their weakness and strength is that they are a three wound model, so they are a really good target for stuff like lascannons, missile launchers. But consider this, one lascannon Havoc shoot once, while an Obliterator shoots 4 times. Even if you end up with str7, ap -1 shots, its still 4 shots versus the havoc's one shot. And the difference in cost is smaller than it looks. A 5 man squad of Havocs with lascannons cost 165 points and fires 4 shots. A 3 man Obliterator costs 195 points and fires 12 shots! Its just 30 more points. Would you mind paying 30 more points for 8 more shots (admittedly of variable quality lol).

And like what Darkly Dreaming said, with teleportarium you are assured to at least get one round of shooting, and the Slannesh stratagem on them is sick. Also, they are considered Infantry, so they benefit from legion traits. An Alpha legion obliterator gets a -1 to hit when you try and shoot it from over 12 inches away. An Iron warrior obliterator ignores cover when shooting.

I'm probably going for Alpha Legion overall myself. The -1 To hit is excellent with a perfect Deep Strike now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said you can't go wrong with any of them for Obliterators outside maybe Black Legion.

Mazzyx wrote:
Considering that their is a written rule, not just data slates, in the Index that says for example Emperor's Children can take Noise Marines as troops that rule either is in the EC children section or still counts.

The could of not separated the data slates like they did in index which is stupid if they don't have a written two sentences that mark bezerker horde or masters of kakophoni and so on.

Knowing GW they could of probably overlooked that and will have to FAQ it. Hopefully on Saturday as we are a few weeks out from like NOVA here and such.

Edit:

Looked the FLG link above. It is in the comments but he says you can still take cult units as troops for your legion.

Can you quote what your referencing in the Frontline link. I see mention of using old data slates for specific option if you have the model. But nothing from Reecius explicitly saying cults can be taken as troops in the comments. I even directly asked but haven't gotten a reply yet.

Since they don't have any options that aren't ported over, I would err on the side caution RAW and think you have to use the new datasheet, as the rules for the factions themselves have been completely replaced as well. It's quite possible they will FAQ it, but they are elite units and no other armies get to do that kind of thing anymore AFAIK so it might be a trend that has come to an end.

 Sersi wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:
Considering that their is a written rule, not just data slates, in the Index that says for example Emperor's Children can take Noise Marines as troops that rule either is in the EC children section or still counts.

The could of not separated the data slates like they did in index which is stupid if they don't have a written two sentences that mark bezerker horde or masters of kakophoni and so on.

Knowing GW they could of probably overlooked that and will have to FAQ it. Hopefully on Saturday as we are a few weeks out from like NOVA here and such.

Edit:

Looked the FLG link above. It is in the comments but he says you can still take cult units as troops for your legion.

Can you quote what your referencing in the Frontline link. I see mention of using old data slates for specific option if you have the model. But nothing from Reecius explicitly saying cults can be taken as troops in the comments. I even directly asked but haven't gotten a reply yet.

Summoning is very good. The top Daemon player at the BAO had 600 pts of his list in his summoning pool. I often summon in a big unit of Bloodletters in my faux-KDK army and they are extremely good. And yeah, Cult Legions can still take them as troops.

ctrl F type in the above to confirm

Can anyone who owns both a Leviathan and a Mauler/Forgefiend give me an idea as to how compatible the ranged fiend weapons would be with the Leviathan?

Cheers.

 Sersi wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:
Considering that their is a written rule, not just data slates, in the Index that says for example Emperor's Children can take Noise Marines as troops that rule either is in the EC children section or still counts.

The could of not separated the data slates like they did in index which is stupid if they don't have a written two sentences that mark bezerker horde or masters of kakophoni and so on.

Knowing GW they could of probably overlooked that and will have to FAQ it. Hopefully on Saturday as we are a few weeks out from like NOVA here and such.

Edit:

Looked the FLG link above. It is in the comments but he says you can still take cult units as troops for your legion.

Can you quote what your referencing in the Frontline link. I see mention of using old data slates for specific option if you have the model. But nothing from Reecius explicitly saying cults can be taken as troops in the comments. I even directly asked but haven't gotten a reply yet.

Question by blight yesterday:

Been very happy with what I’ve seen so far.
So you mention cult marines as troops. So can World Eaters and Emperor’s Children still take their cult marines as troops?
Also as a Word Bearer I think people that keep dissing summoning forget that daemons don’t deepstrike on their own anymore. Love that relic.

Reecius reply today at 8:13 am

Summoning is very good. The top Daemon player at the BAO had 600 pts of his list in his summoning pool. I often summon in a big unit of Bloodletters in my faux-KDK army and they are extremely good. And yeah, Cult Legions can still take them as troops.

Abaddon seems pretty solid now. does his shooting / morale aura apply to Cultists?

 scommy wrote:
Abaddon seems pretty solid now. does his shooting / morale aura apply to Cultists?

Yup. IW also have a warlord trait that gives ignore morale so they work pretty good with cultists as well.

Abby seems good on his own, but I don't see much reason to take BL unless you feel like it for fluffy reasons as their LT is not the most useful IMO.

jcd386 wrote:

 scommy wrote:
Abaddon seems pretty solid now. does his shooting / morale aura apply to Cultists?

Yup. IW also have a warlord trait that gives ignore morale so they work pretty good with cultists as well.

Abby seems good on his own, but I don't see much reason to take BL unless you feel like it for fluffy reasons as their LT is not the most useful IMO.

Yes spot on. Take a chaos lord for the 1 reroll and the 6 inch morale - almost as good as abaddons skills and waaay cheaper.

IW with ignore cover is nothing to sneeze at. The BL assault weapons thing seems ok as long as have abbadon for the rerolls I guess -1 on the hit roll wold hurt otherwise.

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:
Considering that their is a written rule, not just data slates, in the Index that says for example Emperor's Children can take Noise Marines as troops that rule either is in the EC children section or still counts.

The could of not separated the data slates like they did in index which is stupid if they don't have a written two sentences that mark bezerker horde or masters of kakophoni and so on.

Knowing GW they could of probably overlooked that and will have to FAQ it. Hopefully on Saturday as we are a few weeks out from like NOVA here and such.

Edit:

Looked the FLG link above. It is in the comments but he says you can still take cult units as troops for your legion.

Can you quote what your referencing in the Frontline link. I see mention of using old data slates for specific option if you have the model. But nothing from Reecius explicitly saying cults can be taken as troops in the comments. I even directly asked but haven't gotten a reply yet.

Summoning is very good. The top Daemon player at the BAO had 600 pts of his list in his summoning pool. I often summon in a big unit of Bloodletters in my faux-KDK army and they are extremely good. And yeah, Cult Legions can still take them as troops.

ctrl F type in the above to confirm

Thanks for that. I do wonder if Reecius is quoting from the codex though; or going off the index. Since asked both the guys from "Winter SEO" and "Forge the Narrative" and both said there was no mention of taking cults as troops in the codex.

Can Noise Marines and Berserkers still be taken as troops by their legions?

Winter SEO:

They are an elite slot now. The legion thing does not change that.

Can World Eaters and Emperor's Children still take cult units as troops?

Forge The Narrative:
.
They can't. But... the detachments in the main rule book make this less of a hurdle.

I don't know really. It doesn't sound like the codex makes them troops but you can use the entry in the Chaos Index. This is going to take an FAQ for clarity.