8th ed CHAOS tactica

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**Rydria**

Sersi wrote:
I got my codex today and the first thing that stuck out to me was that the Renegade Legion Trait was just better than the Emperor's Children one. Then looking at the actual Slaanesh: artifacts, stratagems and warlord traits; compared to the Emperor's Children specific artifact, stratagem and warlord trait. Blissgiver is garbage, compared to Intoxication Elixir. Stimulated by Pain is nice but all of the generic Warlord Trait are good as is Inspiring Presence from the main rule book. As for Stratagems the Endless Cacophony for shooting twice is generic Slaaneshi. While the EC on Excess of Violence 1CP for +1 attack "if" you kill something, isn't great unless its Terminators, Warp Talons, or Power Sword equipped Chosen. You do miss out on Veterans of the Long War for +1 to wound. Which along with loosing access to the Sonic Dreadnought is the only real negative to just taking a Slaaneshi Renegade Force instead. Or at the very least taken any melee oriented units in a Slaaneshi Renegade detachment.

For instance since CP are shared over the entire army. You would take a Slaaneshi <Renegade> Battalion and kit the those CSM troops, that get nothing the EC legion trait out with chain swords and take advantage of Advance & Charge. Melee Chosen and Terminators are also better taken in a renegade force as well since they can still use Endless Cacophony. Then take a <Emperor's Children> Vanguard for your shooting units or models you want to take EC specific gear on.

The only thing to be mindful of in a mixed force would be characters auras are specific to units with their legion trait. Fortunately, Sorcerers are agnostic in that the power either work for all Heretic Astarte or are Slaanesh Specific.

Chaos terminators and chosen are not strictly better in renegades, they are more likely to make charges (except after the initial deep strike) but you're making them worse at killing things since they lack veterans of the long war for that +1 to wound which is incredible.

Terminators with lightning claws having a 75% chance to wound toughness 5 - 7 models is great., a 88% chance vs toughness 4, and a 98.8% chance vs toughness 3, now add in the support staff on a large unit of terminators you can get terminators who hit with 98.9% of there attacks and wound with 98.8% which roughly equals 19.5 unsaved wounds vs conscripts/other toughness 3 swarms (not calculating dtfe) if you used excess of violence on that unit for 1CP you just almost doubled your terminators attacks, which means you just used fury of khorne for 1 less CP.

As for the legion trait, it is the strongest one vs other melee oriented armies since it forces them to play alternating fights (which weakens there offence) you then get army wide priority in every subsequent fight phase where they can't even use counter offence since it can only be used vs charging units. They can't even opt to leave combat as that is an even worse situation as that means you can now shot them before you simply charge them yourself, which puts them back into a unfavorable situation. (Some units despite having really good killing power don't like being hit before they can attack, like Bloodletters, daemonettes and genestealers to name a few this is one of the reasons that noise marines having 2 base attacks is great as it means people have to think twice about mass assaulting EC)

**Coyotepunc**

What would be the best loadout for a generic Terminator Chaos Lord for the Death Guard?

Thank you

**Sersi**

Chaos terminators and chosen are not strictly better in renegades, they are more likely to make charges (except after the initial deep strike) but you're making them worse at killing things since they lack veterans of the long war for that +1 to wound which is incredible.

True, but that assumes you intend to use CP on VOTLW as opposed to more chances at double shots with say Noise Marines, Havocs or Sonic Dreadnoughts shooting. Noise Marines being able to advance shoot a more distant target and then charge a nearby on is pretty tempting.

Terminators with lightning claws having a 75% chance to wound toughness 5 - 7 models is great., a 88% chance vs toughness 4, and a 98.8% chance vs toughness 3, now add in the support staff on a large unit of terminators you can get terminators who hit with 98.9% of there attacks and wound with 98.8% which roughly equals 19.5 unsaved wounds vs conscripts/other toughness 3 swarms (not calculating dtfe) if you used excess of violence on that unit for 1CP you just almost doubled your terminators attacks, which means you just used fury of khorne for 1 less CP.

That's a very good point regarding lightning claws I hadn't given much stock due to the cost. I assume your taking a single claw per Terminator? What your thought on taking those mandatory troops in a renegade battalion; surely there better with advance and charge that always strikes first?

As for the legion trait, it is the strongest one vs other melee oriented armies since it forces them to play alternating fights (which weakens there offence) you then get army wide priority in every subsequent fight phase where they can't even use counter offence since it can only be used vs charging units. They can't even opt to leave combat as that is an even worse situation as that means you can now shot them before you simply charge them yourself, which puts them back into a unfavorable situation. (Some units despite having really good killing power don't like being hit before they can attack, like Bloodletters, daemonettes and genestealers to name a few this is one of the reasons that noise marines having 2 base attacks is great as it means people have to think twice about mass assaulting EC)

All true but that more of a defensive benefit than anything. If you play aggressively or against a shooty but weak in melee army I'd say advance and charge is better.

**Rydria**

I feel that using endless cacophony + vets x2 each is good enough.

I'm going to take daemonettes troops in my battalion soon as we get objective secured from chapter approved or codex (which ever comes first) I feel like they are a good follow up to a terminator bomb.

If I ran cultists i'd still take them as emperor's children, always hitting first is better than advance and charge on objective campers anyway.

The one thing I'd take as renegades 100% of the time are chaos bikers I'm planning on trying a list with 3 full sized squads with x2 flamer, combi melta and power sword/or lightning claw, i'm actually pretty hyped to try it out.

**Arkaine**

Sokhar wrote:
Jackal444 wrote:
Note regarding Uber Magnus: Page 156 states "Note that DG and TS deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section ..."

What're the rules in that section? Page 156: "These rules include the abilities below and a series of stratagems. This section also includes CSM Warlord Traits, Psychic Disciplines, Relics, and Tactical Objectives"

Thus, even though the discipline is Dark Hereticus, it seems Magnus is not allowed to use these psychic power.

Actually on looking at the full text that you're citing parts of, I think you read that wrong. The line that mentions Death Guard and Thousand Sons is printed on the section detailing what "Chaos Space Marine units" are, to wit, units with the <Legion> keyword. The "rules or abilities in this section" is referring to Despoilers of the Galaxy and Legion Traits, as those are explained immediately afterwards. Each one of those other sections you describe (Warlord Traits, Relics, and Tactical Objectives) all include the necessary pre-requisites for your army to benefit from them--Stratagems require a CSM Detachment, Relics require your army to be led by a CSM Warlord, Warlord traits require a CSM Warlord, and Tactical Objectives also require a CSM Warlord.

Dark Hereticus though, includes no such stipulations. Where the other sections detail first what you have to do to unlock those benefits, Dark Hereticus simply states "Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline using the table below." No mention of Chaos Space Marines, or any other such requirements. Just that they have to be a pskyer, and one that can use the Dark Hereticus discipline. So Magnus is in. Be'lakor as well.

That sounds like a reasonable argument. (gosh I miss saying that... so rare these days...)

**Sersi**

Rydria wrote:
I feel that using endless cacophony + vets x2 each is good enough.

I'm going to take daemonettes troops in my battalion soon as we get objective secured from chapter approved or codex (which ever comes first) I feel like they are a good follow up to a terminator bomb.

If I ran cultists i'd still take them as emperor's children, always hitting first is better than advance and charge on objective campers anyway.

The one thing I'd take as renegades 100% of the time are chaos bikers I'm planning on trying a list with 3 full sized squads with x2 flamer, combi melta and power sword/or lightning claw, i'm actually pretty hyped to try it out.

So, six command points is enough? I would think you would want more, are you taking two battalions then?

Oh definitely, I would love to field Daemonettes as troops with obsec in a EC legion detachment. I don't think we'll be getting that though, but taking a couple Slaaneshi Daemons detachments with obsec Daemonettes will work well. I see now that I under estimated Flawless Perfection. I also forgot that the CP's for an army being pooled. So I could just take a EC Vanguard Detachments and avoid taking any marines as troops.

I like the idea of the Bike list. I would you take it as an Outrider detachment along with some Seeker Chariots and Seekers.

Here's hoping that when the Chaos Daemon Codex lands that it has a stratagem to allow them to use normal tactical reserves.

**Kajaki War Pig**

Played a 2k game with my Night Lords today using the new codex, and I have ZERO complaints. I friggin loved how they played. I like that needing to get in close with multiple units encourages the kind of ambush mentality I've felt matches the Night Lords.

Between some light shooting, and a few close combat charges, followed by heavy losses to morale, my Night Lords slaughtered 2 units of ten Blood claws, and a unit of ten reivers in a single turn. I think he ended up taking more casualties from leadership fails than he did from my attacks.

Couple observations:
Terminators with endless cacophony: Pretty solid and powerful unit, I'm not really sold on the Combi-Plasma though. I think I'm gonna lean towards combi-meltas more, as a more reliable death dealing weapon. 10 melta shots from 5 termies should be enough to shred most units of whatever number of wounds.

Sorcerers are an absolute must have. The buffs and options are just too good.

I don't think Obsec will have any real impact on Night Lords, as the chapter tactics kind of lend themselves to slaughtering your opponent wholesale anyway haha.

Overall, very pleased!

**Eldarain**

Nice. What melee weapon are people pairing with the combis on Terminators?

Also maybe it's just the VotLW in me but Marines being the most vulnerable to morale seems weird as gak.

**jcd386**

I would say the lightning claw is the most ideal choice, or swords if you need to stay cheap. You could probably also mix in other things (maybe a PF or two?) which seems like it would be okay.

**Arachnofiend**

What's a good way to use the Renegade Chapter tactic without using bikes? I've got a Tzeentch Renegades army I like but I'm not really sure how to exploit their advantages because bikes are such an obvious choice but don't exactly feel right.

**Dr. Temujin**

Some of my thoughts upon reading through the codex a few times:

1. Struggling to think of a reason why you would take Raptors over Warp Talons, since Talons are cheaper, and much more useful in melee?
2. Speaking of which, I think a good tactic would be to Deep-Strike Talons with a Jump-Pack Sorcerer, give them Warp Time, and watch as the intended enemy target turns into meat sauce pasta.
3. I seem to remember an ability or Stratagem to temporarily increase ability auras by 3" (unless I'm going crazy and remembered this wrong). If this is the case, maybe use it for WB aura buff shenanigans?
4. Possessed got an extra wound. Cool, but I'm finding it difficult to see them as useable. Maybe if they also had T5 in addition, then sure.

Eldarain wrote:
Nice. What melee weapon are people pairing with the combis on Terminators?

I've been taking 3 axes and 2 PF on a unit of 5. I feel it gives them enough punch to deal with heavy infantry and vehicles, along with combi-plasma.

**lindsay40k**

@Sersi - How are you getting two Special and a combi weapon in a five man Heretac squad?

Teleporting Termies sound good. TBH a ten-man squad of them are about the best option for the Slaaneshi Stratagem (and, incidentally, the Khornate one). What are you thinking, Plasma and Reaper and a Lord letting them really blaze away? I'm not impressed with the Reaper myself and prefer HFs & even plasma-melta split, and Warptime getting them in charge-flame-melt range. With conga lining that's likely a Land Raider and two Primaris Squads dead, easy.

Possessed look like they really benefit from the Renegade ability. They've got no shooting to lose by Advancing, and they're already decent footsloggers with their M7. W2 has decent synergy with 5++ and Slaanesh - their natural enemy is overcharged Plasma, and if they roll 5+ on one of three dice they survive a 2W high AP hit.

Bikers are also a solid choice, if they carry their special weapons they can shoot with them and their TL bolters at no penalty (except the one for advancing, obvs)

**SilverAlien**

Arachnofiend wrote:
What's a good way to use the Renegade Chapter tactic without using bikes? I've got a Tzeentch Renegades army I like but I'm not really sure how to exploit their advantages because bikes are such an obvious choice but don't exactly feel right.

Any melee unit you want to footslog rather than deepstrike or load up in a rhino benefits. If you aren't using any khorne, raptors and even warptalons can benefit as it's hard to get the charge off post deepstrike without thhe reroll. Large units of melee cultists, melee loadout plain CSM, or possessed are also options. You can even include your counts as Huron in your counts as red corsairs if you want to work around the morale issues of taking them as high model count units and foot slogging them up the board.

**Latro_**

mrhappyface wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
I would but its a converted imperial fist dread with a antenna that an IW dude controls from orbit to torment him from 2004

I need to take a photo.

Please do!

only one i could find hes in the middle

Spoiler:

**Trasvi**

I noticed a stealth buff to Maulerfiends - lasher tendrils now do 6 attacks instead of D6. Also dropped by 9pts to 152.

Not sure if this is intended or not, but as someone who has been trying to run 3 of them its a welcome little change for me.

I know people have been saying that Blood Slaughters are pretty good, but I think they're pretty comparable - 152 vs 180pts, 4 S12 AP3 + 6 S6 AP2 vs 6 S10 AP3 attacks 12 vs 10 wounds...

**lessthanjeff**

Damn, I even used 3 maulerfiends for two games yesterday and missed that. I was doing d6. Noticed the point change but not the output, thanks!

**jcd386**

SilverAlien wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
What's a good way to use the Renegade Chapter tactic without using bikes? I've got a Tzeentch Renegades army I like but I'm not really sure how to exploit their advantages because bikes are such an obvious choice but don't exactly feel right.

Any melee unit you want to footslog rather than deepstrike or load up in a rhino benefits. If you aren't using any khorne, raptors and even warptalons can benefit as it's hard to get the charge off post deepstrike without thhe reroll. Large units of melee cultists, melee loadout plain CSM, or possessed are also options. You can even include your counts as Huron in your counts as red corsairs if you want to work around the morale issues of taking them as high model count units and foot slogging them up the board.

Id say it is also quite useful in lists with assault units in rhinos. Having an extra d6 inches to the move + charge really helps make sure they get into combat once they get out, and the rhinos help them make sure they close enough to charge. Bikes obviously benefit a lot of from this as well.

**Sersi**

lindsay40k wrote:
@Sersi - How are you getting two Special and a combi weapon in a five man Heretac squad?

Whoops. That's supposed to be read as two units of 5 with a special and a combi weapon; not two specials and a combi weapon.

**McGibs**

Maulerfiends getting cheaper and choppier and also having access to daemonforge stratagem makes them a pretty appealing choice now. Compared to a melee-dread which is about the same points, theyre faster, have 4 more wounds, a 5++ and can heal themselves, with the downside of degenerating stats and worse accuracy (which can be curbed with demonfroge or a nearby apostle).
Even against bloodslaughterers, their extra toughness and points are good enough to make them comparable.
Not sure why you would ever take magmacutters though, they seem pretty terrible and overcosted still.

Also, defilers got an extra attack!
What are people arming them with? I'd take the twin h-flamers, but I like melee too much to give up the scourge. Twin bolter just seems flat out better than the reaper now that they decided it's the weeniest of autocannons.

**Sersi**

Actually, since CP are shared over the entire army. Take two minimum Battalions of Slaanesh Chaos Daemons. For instance 3 units of 10 Daemonettes and a Herald in a seeker chariot for 356 pts each; for 6 CP and 60 Obsec troops. Only 712 pts which leaves plenty of points for a Emperor's Children Vanguard detachment for you Noise Marines, Terminators, and Sonic Dreadnoughts.

**Sokhar**

McGibs wrote:
Maulerfiends getting cheaper and choppier and also having access to daemonforge stratagem makes them a pretty appealing choice now.

Agreed. I'm actually wondering if they don't stack up adequately even to the insane ball of stats that are Giant Chaos Spawn. Spawn are half the cost and have greater potential upside if you roll well, but the Maulerfiend would definitely be the more consistent choice. More wounds and daemonic bonuses working in favor of the Spawn, but Maulerfiend auto regens a wound each turn, has a better 3+ armor save, and toughness 7 vs 5 is certainly not nothing. 10 attacks base (with Lasher Tendrils) that all have at least -2 AP and 2 damage is quite impressive. Maulerfiends should be considerably faster, starting with a base 10" move and needing to lose more than 1 wound (unlike the Spawn) before the movement stat starts to degrade. Further, their being a Heretic Astartes model means you can launch them forward with Warp Time, a definite plus. Finally, the model is WAY cheaper to buy, which is the largest stumbling block for Giant Chaos Spawn right now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, they didn't waste any time....

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Index Chaos errata includes the new point cost for the daemon troops, as well as the change to Brims/Blue Horrors casting Smite. Also included is permission for Thousand Sons psykers as well as Be'lakor, to use the newly expanded Dark Hereticus discipline.

**Kajaki War Pig**

Dr. Temujin wrote:
Some of my thoughts upon reading through the codex a few times:

1. Struggling to think of a reason why you would take Raptors over Warp Talons, since Talons are cheaper, and much more useful in melee?
2. Speaking of which, I think a good tactic would be to Deep-Strike Talons with a Jump-Pack Sorcerer, give them Warp Time, and watch as the intended enemy target turns into meat sauce pasta.

I've been taking 3 axes and 2 PF on a unit of 5. I feel it gives them enough punch to deal with heavy infantry and vehicles, along with combi-plasma.

**nintura**

Errata for Daemons and 1k Sons. Daemons points changes. 1k Sons get to use the new Dark Hereticus discipline

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

**Rydria**

Sersi wrote:
Actually, since CP are shared over the entire army. Take two minimum Battalions of Slaanesh Chaos Daemons. For instance 3 units of 10 Daemonettes and a Herald in a seeker chariot for 356 pts each; for 6 CP and 60 Obsec troops. Only 712 pts which leaves plenty of points for a Emperor's Children Vanguard detachment for you Noise Marines, Terminators, and Sonic Dreadnoughts.

You can actually get a pretty good brigade in chaos space marines now that fits in 2000pts, at 2500 you can drop the 3 singular spawn for raptors to support the terminator bomb).
HQ 321
Chaos Lord – 80 (Combi-bolter, power sword) (Mark of slaanesh)
Chaos terminator Lord – 115 (Terminator Armour, Combi-Bolter, Lightning claw) (Mark of slaanesh)
Chaos Sorcerer – 126 (Jump Pack, bolt pistol, force sword)

Elites 850
10 Terminators – 550 (10 Combi Plasma, 10 Lightning claws, Icon of excess) (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Sonic Hellbrute – 150 (Power scourge, twin Blastmaster) (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Sonic Hellbrute – 150 (Power scourge, twin Blastmaster) (Mark of slaanesh)

Troops 240
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)
10 cultists – 40 (Mark of slaanesh)

Fast Attack 99
1 Chaos Spawn – 33 (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Chaos Spawn – 33 (Mark of slaanesh)
1 Chaos Spawn – 33 (Mark of slaanesh)

Heavy Support 490
5 Havocs – 165 (x4 Missile Launcher) (Mark of slaanesh)
5 Havocs – 165 (x4 Missile Launcher) (Mark of slaanesh)
5 Havocs – 160 (x3 Missile Launcher, 1Autocannon) (Mark of slaanesh)

**doc1234**

How are you finding the use of singular chaos spawn for bumping out slots? Don't they just vanish into red paste once they get looked at ?

**mrhappyface**

nintura wrote:
Errata for Daemons and 1k Sons. Daemons points changes. 1k Sons get to use the new Dark Hereticus discipline

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Über Magnus is a go!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Latro_ wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
I would but its a converted imperial fist dread with a antenna that an IW dude controls from orbit to torment him from 2004

I need to take a photo.

Please do!

only one i could find hes in the middle

Spoiler:

It's so tiny! I haven't got great eye sight you know!

Also, brilliant collection and over half your army is painted! Well done!

**Kajaki War Pig**

doc1234 wrote:
How are you finding the use of singular chaos spawn for bumping out slots? Don't they just vanish into red paste once they get looked at ?

They're relatively tough, and I like the fact that if you're trying to kill one, you're not shooting something else, like a tac squad. I've also not seen anyone put out enough damage in overwatch to kill one as it charges, so I use them as my overwatch absorbing first charges. They're remarkably pesky for only 33 points.

**Arkaine**

mrhappyface wrote:
nintura wrote:
Errata for Daemons and 1k Sons. Daemons points changes. 1k Sons get to use the new Dark Hereticus discipline

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Über Magnus is a go!

That's clumsy to say. Can't we just use the popular blue robot member and go with MegaMagnus?

**mrhappyface**

Arkaine wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
nintura wrote:
Errata for Daemons and 1k Sons. Daemons points changes. 1k Sons get to use the new Dark Hereticus discipline

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/13/daemons-and-thousand-sons-in-codex-chaos-space-marines-aug-13gw-homepage-post-2/

Über Magnus is a go!

That's clumsy to say. Can't we just use the popular blue robot member and go with MegaMagnus?

ThunderMagnus are go?

**HeavenLord**

Is Magnus now a must have in any Chaos list ? I perosnally expect a nerf when the TS codex will be realeased, he is just a beast to stick like this...