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 TonyH122 wrote:

=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSU CC army.

Nice thing about the Night Lords is that if you do paste a unit(s) and/or they fall back from the combat, you can spend 1 CP and drop In The Midnight Clad and make everyone shooting a them suffer the -1 to hit. Which beyond the simple -1 to hit, it eliminates any ones buff to re-rolling 1's only as well.

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 TonyH122 wrote:

=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSU CC army.

Nice thing about the Night Lords is that if you do paste a unit(s) and/or they fall back from the combat, you can spend 1 CP and drop In The Midnight Clad and make everyone shooting a them suffer the -1 to hit. Which beyond the simple -1 to hit, it eliminates any ones buff to re-rolling 1's only as well.

No it doesn't. Modifiers happen after re-rolls. If they roll a 3, which would be a hit, and the -1 makes it a miss, they can't re-roll that. Same with re-roll 1 auras, it's only what the dice says, no modifiers.

What it does do is make plasma marines more likely to kill themselves on Overcharge.

It is still weird to me that people think the NL trait is useful. It's a trait you have to build around that will do nothing against multiple armies. That's fine in friendly games where you know what your opponent has, but it'll never be a good choice anywhere else, particularly not when those armies that utterly shut it down tend to already be top tier armies. Maybe as a small detachment in a larger force, but even that I'd just rather have the reliability of WEs. Who, in all honesty, will generally offer as much extra oomph unless you go all in on the LD nerds and I already said why I think that's a horrible plan.

I think WE are still the best legion for a mechanized melee army. AL and renegades both work well for footslogging and AL can also do the forward deploy trick, but they don't offer a lot to a mechanized force.

are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)

I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Marius Xerxes wrote:

 TonyH122 wrote:

=4) Night Lords - I would actually say that their CC is comparable to that of World Eaters. Sure, they lack the raw killiness of WE in many ways, but they still get Berzerkers and can take the Khorne Strategem. But in many ways I think that the leadership debuff can do more reliable damage to non-single model units than a few extra attacks, particularly given how easy it is now just to leave combat. I'd say that whereas WE is more of a large unit CC army, Night Lords are the MSU CC army.

Nice thing about the Night Lords is that if you do paste a unit(s) and/or they fall back from the combat, you can spend 1 CP and drop In The Midnight Clad and make everyone shooting a them suffer the -1 to hit. Which beyond the simple -1 to hit, it eliminates any ones buff to re-rolling 1's only as well.

No it doesn't. Modifiers happen after re-rolls. If they roll a 3, which would be a hit, and the -1 makes it a miss, they can't re-roll that. Same with re-roll 1 auras, it's only what the dice says, no modifiers.

What it does do is make plasma marines more likely to kill themselves on Overcharge.

Yeah I know. I was mis-thinking when I typed that. So ignore the re-rolling 1's and bask in the benefit of the general -1, which was the main point.

So messing with lists and schemes, I am thinking of running a big block of 15 Raptors in my Night Lords list, just everybody with chainswords, ready to get stuck in. The question is, do I reun them as Nurgle, or Khorne. Reasoning:

Nurgle: icon of Despair for an addition -1 leadership, plus I cancast Miasma of Pestilence on them, making them -1 to hit from shooting and CC attacks. Adding in 'In Midnight Clad', they could potentially be -2 to hit from shooting

Khorne: Banner of Wrath to re-roll the charge from deepstrike, and then use Fury of Khorne for a second batch of attacks, essentially making the Raptors jump pack bezerkers.

Thoughts?

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
So messing with lists and schemes, I am thinking of running a big block of 15 Raptors in my Night Lords list, just everybody with chainswords, ready to get stuck in. The question is, do I reun them as Nurgle, or Khorne. Reasoning:

Nurgle: icon of Despair for an addition -1 leadership, plus I cancast Miasma of Pestilence on them, making them -1 to hit from shooting and CC attacks. Adding in 'In Midnight Clad', they could potentially be -2 to hit from shooting

Khorne: Banner of Wrath to re-roll the charge from deepstrike, and then use Fury of Khorne for a second batch of attacks, essentially making the Raptors jump pack bezerkers.

Thoughts?

Khorne buffs the one thing that can go wrong with raptors, giving you a better chance. And doubles the effectiveness.

The opposing view is mildly reducting from when it does go wrong, you should be playing for the best chance to make it go right no?

I am voting Nurgle. The whole thing with Nightlords is you want stacking negatives to leadership so a slight tap to a squad leads to half of them running away.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)

I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.

Why were WE ever not viable? I've been running variations of WE lists since launch and they've all done brilliantly, they even put up a tough fight for the most competitive Guard lists, now with +1A on the charge? Not really changed Zerkers much but Khorne Terminators have just become my go to unit! Easily capable of destroying 2 different units when they drop from deep strike.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)

I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.

Well zerkers are troops for WE now, so you can run them without cultists. Though honestly I'd be inclined to run at least some cultists as objective grabbers, zerkers are for charging into the enemy.

As for how they look, keep in mind there is no "pure" legion list that out performs one using detachments from multiple legions tailored to role. WE are a solid choice for a pure assault army however, or as the assault portion of a mixed army. Solid all around if you plan to deepstrike a lot of units or mainly use mechanized assault troops.

Are Warp Talons actually worth a look now? They've been reduced in cost slightly again (lower cost of double claws) and with certain legion tactics I think they might be able to do some work. I think the best legion for them would be World Eaters since they get +1A on the charge, plus if they are marked Khorne they could use the stratagem to attack a second time. They could at least supplement Berzerkers, although perhaps the best thing to supplement Berzerkers with is simply more Berzerkers.

Why Khorne terminators I'm confused how did they get better aren't chaos terminators drop and shoot, I thought that would be EC that made them better.

SilverAlien the new codex made Berzerkers Elites everyones been talking about it mate sorry.

Zergsmasher Warp Talons with the overwatch thing look good but they need a lord or something to drop with them and cast warptime I think, can you do that if they are Khorne? if you can you are looking at first turn great charges. The only problem being of course screening units so they'd serve as a distraction more than anything, but gorgeous models what a distraction unit.

So with today's CSM FAQ, a Sup Command Det. of Daemon Prices (3 in my case) can take the Renegades CSM Legion trait; then can advance and charge in the same turn? They can still take the mark of Tzeentch as well right?

That seems amazing when running with Magnus, SOT, The changeling, some brims and BeLakor (I take him cuz he is painted and I throw some buff on him and let him beat face along with Magnus (ie Bullet Magnet).

With 10 drops, I might actually get a chance to go first and make this a decent alpha list.

Am I missing something?

Warptalons look pretty beast, if you're casting Warptime on them then they may well have jumped over the screening unit and can declare a charge on everyone within 12", facing zero overwatch - and then when you roll the distance see what you can reach. "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge" - so you have free reign to daisy chain all over the place, exploit Pile In, burn off 3CP to really get in there - remember,if your initial charge distance was good, you can have half your unit zoom up to be 1.1" in front of a load of support units, and then you are OBLIGED to pile into them, EVEN IF you didn't charge them, COMPLETELY IGNORING their two dozen flamers. On top of that, if you are 1.3" in front of a Leman Russ, you can pile in sideways so that you are 1.2" in front of it, and then do the same with your after attacks pile in, so that your Fury of Khorne stratagem lets you sidestep again to 1.1" away from it, and then again to 1" - and also 1" away from a Company Commander. Wham, even on a snake eyes charge you've moved 26", entangling a mass of enemy units into melee. Unless you're facing Ultramarines, that's a hell of a lot of disruption - and even then, they're a nuisance.

...or, you might fail to cast Warptime. Still, nice trick for Magnus

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Why Khorne terminators I'm confused how did they get better aren't chaos terminators drop and shoot, I thought that would be EC that made them better.

I have a Night Lords suplimentry force that allows me to bring sorcerers to the table, so each game a have a 5 man WE terminator unit w/ plasma +of, WE terminator lord and a NL sorcerer in reserve. Each game they drop in, I cast warptime + prescience on the terminators and then unleash hellfire: 12x S8 ap-3 D2 shots hitting on 2s (and always wounding on 2s/3s with VotLW), which is likely to kill or cripple something beyond repair, then they charge in with a total of 16xS8 ap-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 3s (can use VotLW again here), which again will utterly destroy or cripple something. The +1A on the charge really pushed Terminators from a nusense to an actual threat.

The Slaanesh stratagem is very good but we aren't some namby pamby Emperor's Children warband, we are the World Eaters! Slaughter your opponent in combat or don't slaughter at all!

 mrhappyface wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
Why Khorne terminators I'm confused how did they get better aren't chaos terminators drop and shoot, I thought that would be EC that made them better.

I have a Night Lords suplimentry force that allows me to bring sorcerers to the table, so each game a have a 5 man WE terminator unit w/ plasma +of, WE terminator lord and a NL sorcerer in reserve. Each game they drop in, I cast warptime + prescience on the terminators and then unleash hellfire: 12x S8 ap-3 D2 shots hitting on 2s (and always wounding on 2s/3s with VotLW), which is likely to kill or cripple something beyond repair, then they charge in with a total of 16xS8 ap-3 Dd3 attacks hitting on 3s (can use VotLW again here), which again will utterly destroy or cripple something. The +1A on the charge really pushed Terminators from a nusense to an actual threat.

The Slaanesh stratagem is very good but we aren't some namby pamby Emperor's Children warband, we are the World Eaters! Slaughter your opponent in combat or don't slaughter at all!

That sounds awesome I wasn't aware you can mix and match things like that (I said I'm new to chaos still working my way through it I've got two new armies -tyranids- on go its taking some time)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Warptalons look pretty beast, if you're casting Warptime on them then they may well have jumped over the screening unit and can declare a charge on everyone within 12", facing zero overwatch - and then when you roll the distance see what you can reach. "The first model you move must finish within 1" of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1" of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge" - so you have free reign to daisy chain all over the place, exploit Pile In, burn off 3CP to really get in there - remember,if your initial charge distance was good, you can have half your unit zoom up to be 1.1" in front of a load of support units, and then you are OBLIGED to pile into them, EVEN IF you didn't charge them, COMPLETELY IGNORING their two dozen flamers. On top of that, if you are 1.3" in front of a Leman Russ, you can pile in sideways so that you are 1.2" in front of it, and then do the same with your after attacks pile in, so that your Fury of Khorne stratagem lets you sidestep again to 1.1" away from it, and then again to 1" - and also 1" away from a Company Commander. Wham, even on a snake eyes charge you've moved 26", entangling a mass of enemy units into melee. Unless you're facing Ultramarines, that's a hell of a lot of disruption - and even then, they're a nuisance.

...or, you might fail to cast Warptime. Still, nice trick for Magnus

Feel like I need to read that 3x to fully get it and its going to get better every time. Warptime, plus jump pack, screening units can suck a **** love it

Aye, take two detachments: a WE detachment filled with berzerkers, terminators and any other cc unit you want to take and a NL/AL/etc. detachment filled with sorcerers, cultist blobs and ranged support units. Supported WE detachments hit like a ton of bricks and keep going.

I feel like EC noise marines might be some of the best troops in the game now. In fact the chaos book in general seems so strong compared to the other codexes so far.

jcd386 wrote:
I feel like EC noise marines might be some of the best troops in the game now. In fact the chaos book in general seems so strong compared to the other codexes so far.

I agree, noise marines are really strong since they are so versatile they're good enough at shoting to sit back and shot, good enough at combat to potentially fend off assault units and if need be they are fast enough to run down the board due to there weapons being assault.

But they are elites? Someone else above said berzerkers are troops but since the new codex came out they aren't surely?

FAQ changed both Berserkers and Noise Marines to troops for their legions.

 Eldarain wrote:
FAQ changed both Berserkers and Noise Marines to troops for their legions.

Wow that makes so much more sense, is that not a crazy basic mistake for them to make?

Jaq Draco lives wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
FAQ changed both Berserkers and Noise Marines to troops for their legions.

Wow that makes so much more sense, is that not a crazy basic mistake for them to make?

you would think so but they have made mistakes before

Noise Marines I think might be my favorite unit right now. The amount of damage I can do with is insane. Blastmasters are missile launchers but hyped up. Sonic blasters put out tons of damage. They are mean in close combat. And even in death they break units. I wish I had more actually converted, it is just expensive.

Anyone try out the Possessed since the upgrade in an actual game? I really want to try them in a land raider with apostle+exalted champion support.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)

I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.

Viable now? They hit the ground running in this edition.

Surprising access to DTW coverage, and if Magnus the Red casts 2D6mw Smite on a 14, you can burn a CP to DTW on a 4+. Throw in Karanak and some Hounds and you don't need to worry too much about psykers.

You can take a thoroughly solid firebase, with Havocs and Predators re-rolling 1's to hit and the infantry gaining a 1+ save in Ruins.

You can fire your Land Raider's lascannons on the hoof.

Axe of Blind Rage Juggerlord is still formidable. Khârn is a brutal beatstick and it's not hard to stage manage a melee so that he gives his buffs to comrades and then they get out of the way before Gorechild starts swinging.

Plasma Terminators and Chosen got a massive boost with perfectly safe low power, awesome overcharge that may as well be made for hunting tanks, termies and Primaris, and common access to re-rolls. Without access to Warptime for close range shots, combi plasma is better than melta.

You can always attempt to charge out of your Dreadclaws and Kharybdis, which have also gotten even scarier.

Not only can your Dark Apostles buff your butchers, you also get to buff your wound rolls with Exalted Champions - and you're not obliged to have the back of the conga line creep away from their aura radius.

The Pile In and Consolidate rules can be stage-managed to enable a unit to extend its reach by up to 18" (in exceptional circumstances - nonetheless you can feasibly get a unit to push in hard and deep to disrupt the enemy army).

Nothing wrong with Daemon Princes, now they can't be easily sniped.

Chainaxes are excellent, easily worth the paltry point and easily better than a bolt pistol in nearly all circumstances.

You can take forty Cultists, get 39 of them killed, and then have the whole lot reappear behind the enemy army. Next turn, they charge with 3A each.

Nothing wrong with Possessed, now - if you want to try jumping out a Dreadclaw and then next turn Summoning something tasty, they'll put 18W in front of a character. If there's no Plasma around, that's a lot to chew through.

By the way, WRT your building plan - whilst the Berzerkers kit is antique, IMO it mixes *really* well with Calth marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mazzyx wrote:
Noise Marines I think might be my favorite unit right now. The amount of damage I can do with is insane. Blastmasters are missile launchers but hyped up. Sonic blasters put out tons of damage. They are mean in close combat. And even in death they break units. I wish I had more actually converted, it is just expensive.

Anyone try out the Possessed since the upgrade in an actual game? I really want to try them in a land raider with apostle+exalted champion support.

I'm looking forward to trying it, this was my go-to unit in 7ed, unfortunately now I suspect their unreliable number of attacks means setting aside a CP for them if you want them to charge. Honestly, I think their likely use now is as 2W 5++ models that take up a single transport slot, have an elevated threat radius, and can be given endurance-boosting buffs. They cannot be overlooked and should take a lot of firepower to put down. Renegades can field them as a horde and terrify any screen that's not Conscript cheese or green tide - and even then, they'll get some chomping done and take some pounding, especially with endurance buffs.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
are world eater lists looking viable now? I've never done chaos and was thinking of basing it around berzerkers (mixture of 30k plastic marines and upgrade WE sets)

I know a lot of people got pissed off with changing them to elites, but it seems to me like any competitive army needs screening units and cultists are damned cheap.

Viable now? They hit the ground running in this edition.

Surprising access to DTW coverage, and if Magnus the Red casts 2D6mw Smite on a 14, you can burn a CP to DTW on a 4+. Throw in Karanak and some Hounds and you don't need to worry too much about psykers.

You can take a thoroughly solid firebase, with Havocs and Predators re-rolling 1's to hit and the infantry gaining a 1+ save in Ruins.

You can fire your Land Raider's lascannons on the hoof.

Axe of Blind Rage Juggerlord is still formidable. Khârn is a brutal beatstick and it's not hard to stage manage a melee so that he gives his buffs to comrades and then they get out of the way before Gorechild starts swinging.

Plasma Terminators and Chosen got a massive boost with perfectly safe low power, awesome overcharge that may as well be made for hunting tanks, termies and Primaris, and common access to re-rolls. Without access to Warptime for close range shots, combi plasma is better than melta.

You can always attempt to charge out of your Dreadclaws and Kharybdis, which have also gotten even scarier.

Not only can your Dark Apostles buff your butchers, you also get to buff your wound rolls with Exalted Champions - and you're not obliged to have the back of the conga line creep away from their aura radius.

The Pile In and Consolidate rules can be stage-managed to enable a unit to extend its reach by up to 18" (in exceptional circumstances - nonetheless you can feasibly get a unit to push in hard and deep to disrupt the enemy army).

Nothing wrong with Daemon Princes, now they can't be easily sniped.

Chainaxes are excellent, easily worth the paltry point and easily better than a bolt pistol in nearly all circumstances.

You can take forty Cultists, get 39 of them killed, and then have the whole lot reappear behind the enemy army. Next turn, they charge with 3A each.

Nothing wrong with Possessed, now - if you want to try jumping out a Dreadclaw and then next turn Summoning something tasty, they'll put 18W in front of a character. If there's no Plasma around, that's a lot to chew through.

By the way, WRT your building plan - whilst the Berzerkers kit is antique, IMO it mixes *really* well with Calth marines.

Ive got the 30k boxset marines, planning on some forgeworld upgrades for helmet and shoulder pads as it happens and yes a mate told me to get the old kit for the poses.

But that is literally all I have. I really quite like the idea of warp talons and warp time idea, raptors for a DS dirty melta strike kharn and exalted for rerolling hits and wounds in a rhino...that is as far as I've got.

HANG. ON.

I've just noticed that FLY does not specifically affect MOVEMENT PHASE moves.

This is MASSIVE for Raptors and Warp Talons doing deep insertion attacks.

Their charges have to:

- get the first model that moves within 1" of a unit you declared the charge on
- maintain coherency
- not get within 1" of an enemy they didn't charge
- land on a space they're allowed to occupy
- erm...
- that's it

If you warptimed into the face of a DS screen, and roll well for your charge, you can jump over their heads and backstab them for deeper insertion, or alternatively IGNORE THEM ALTOGETHER and jump over the intervening wall to get slapping the Devastators who couldn't see you.

But wait! There's more!

The restriction on getting within 1" of non-charged foes does not apply to the 3" pile-in moves. Which are moves. And what does FLY mean?

If you can make it so that the BACK of your base is within 3" of the BACK of your dueling partner's base, and you are not touching them, you can use a pile-in move to JUMP OVER THEIR HEAD like a freaking Solitaire. You ended your pile-in closer to the nearest enemy! Do it with half your squad, and you've trapped a non-FLY unit so it can't run off and expose you to shooting! If there's a unit 2.25" behind the unit you're fighting? Congratulations, you just tagged it and now it's gonna forfeit it's next shooting phase, and didn't even get to shoot you when you declared that charge. You can't punch it right now, but who cares? You just poked a Land Raider in the eye and all it can do about your approaching Helbrute is run away!

Oh, you did this with Warp Talons who arrived this turn? NOBODY got to Overwatch you. At all.

But that's not all! There's more! You're not Warp Talons who arrived this turn, and Aggressors are goading you with their dozen D6 of autohits? Get into position 8.1" away. Declare charges on them and a closer, proximate unit with mediocre OW. You can see where this is going, right?

Can't get far enough away, and absolutely must neutralise them? Declare on another proximate unit, jump over the Aggressors' heads, and then pile into them. You've got an endurance spell on you or at the very least your 5++, so they're not going to do an awful lot with their power fists, and they're losing their shooting whatever happens. That's one way to check this formidable DS/horde deterrent. In fact, if you had another fairly big unit charge nearby, they could also mob up around the Aggs and prevent them from falling back, and start pushing them over in their turn. As long as they're not getting 12D6 auto hits, job's a good 'un.

Oh, you got a Fiend into one of the units you engaged and it survived the turn? They can't run away, and your troll unit can't be shot at at all.

Lindsay40k is making me plot out Warp Talon conversions...

 Eldarain wrote:
Lindsay40k is making me plot out Warp Talon conversions...

Well, in the absence of my sig behaving itself...

Ha. 6 of those on my desk will feature prominently. Thinking the claws from the Vanguard set painted in badly battered ultramarine colors. Outfitted by tearing them from dead XIII Legion fools. For Monarchia!