Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyway, about his movement. That's not really a big issue. He already moves 12 inches, as fast as a DP. Plus, I assume those wings he has aren't for show only, so he will have the fly keyword. So, he will effectively be like a flying DP in terms of movement.

He is a CSM, so he can be boosted by warptime. Warptime him 12 inches up after he has moved his normal 12 inches means he is 24 inches up the board already. He should be in range then to charge something juicy. I think have to see his full rules to determine just how squishy he is. Maybe there is some rule we are missing here. I mean, if his DR is a 4+ DR with a rerollable 1, then all of a sudden he will look a lot more tanky.

Don't get me wrong - what you are saying is correct - he is fast, probably he hits hard aswell too. But thats not my issue... he wasn't supposed to be hardest hitting guy around - that was Angron's job. He was supposed to be THE TANK.
As it stands he got exactly same statline as magnus T7 / 18W 3+/4++ with difference that he got FNP and Magnus rerolls invu 1's ...
Now that doesn't look like impossible to take down in 1 turn at all. Far from it.

Ok but i end rant - lets wait for codex.

Against anything with a - 2 rend (aka lascannons, meltas, other powerful single shot weapons) his 4++ and 5+++ are better than Magnus' 4++ re-rolling 1s.

Disgustingly Resilient also works against mortal wounds which is a huge benefit.

Yes, Magnus can cast Weaver of Fates but Morty can cast Miasma of Pestilence which has a similar or better result depending on who is shooting at him.

This guy looks like an absolute beast and will definitely be around the same impact as Guilliman and Magnus.

saint_red wrote:
Against anything with a - 2 rend (aka lascannons, meltas, other powerful single shot weapons) his 4++ and 5+++ are better than Magnus' 4++ re-rolling 1s.

Disgustingly Resilient also works against mortal wounds which is a huge benefit.

Yes, Magnus can cast Weaver of Fates but Morty can cast Miasma of Pestilence which has a similar or better result depending on who is shooting at him.

This guy looks like an absolute beast and will definitely be around the same impact as Guilliman and Magnus.

Well I know about miasma - but if you are not going first - then you won't have opportunity to cast it.

And guess where all lascannons and overheated plasmas will go ? Also Morty doesn't have equvialent of changeling who helps Magnus to survive even when isnt going 1st.
Given that I think it's safe to say Magnus is ... the resilient one there. But then again maybe there is hidden gem like actually 4+ FNP for Mortarion - then i suppose it would be making huge difference.

And again it seems like you guys dont understand what is my problem. He may be worth his points and hype but not in way he should be . That is my issue. He is not supposed to be insane killer machine fluff-wise.
He is known to outlast his opponents. So as i mentioned - he may be as powerful/useful as Magnus/Guilliman and still look disapointing in my eyes. Not what i was expecting. Too much focus on offensive, not enough on resilience.

Swaping his S with T would be at least good start.

He was supposed to be THE TANK.
As it stands he got exactly same statline as magnus T7 / 18W 3+/4++ with difference that he got FNP and Magnus rerolls invu 1's ...
Now that doesn't look like impossible to take down in 1 turn at all. Far from it.

We didn't saw his warlord trait. I'm expecting a tanky trait like reroll 1 for failed FnP. Even if Mortarion don't have his special warlord (wich will be surprising) you can give him the FnP 6+ of rulesbook (on top of his 5+ FnP as said the FAQ).

Unlike his brother Magnus or Guilliman, Mortarion can heal 2D3 wounds per turn ! (Nurgle stratagem and Chaos Nurgle spell), and we didnt saw the capacity of the DG Apothicary let

Personally not looking forward to fighting Mortarian at all. For those who did not see the link:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/03/mortarion-and-the-death-guard-next-weekend/

18 wounds, 4+ invulnerable and Disgustingly Resilient does make him a tough unit to kill.

It's the debuffs that really concern me though: "Toxic Presence reduces the Toughness of anyone foolish enough to stand close to him by 1, while Host of Plagues allows him to stack up a growing tally of Mortal Wounds on nearby enemies."

So he's not going to die easily and opponents will take automatic mortal wounds just standing near him. He's going to be tanking Storm Shield Terminators with about a 67% chance to shrug off any damage.

Did you see part in the video where the Poxwalker exploded? Imagining this as a mechanic for healing DG units. If it turns out he can regenerate wounds as well, fighting him will not be fun.

Lord of Contagion is entirely enclosed within a suit of the toughest infantry armour humanity has ever mass-produced, and loses a point of movement for it. Mortarion has got a massive pair of organic wings that are always going to be more exposed than his face that is left unhelmeted for model aesthetics, and is as mobile as a less portly Daemon Prince. He's just going to have to deal with small arms fire leaving pockmarks.

Assuming his DR is as normal, 4++ & 5+++ is equivalent to 3++ against attacks which roll to wound, and is far superior against Mortal Wounds. So, when Mortarion is asleep, his body is more resilient to damage than that of the greatest psyker in the galaxy when he's not having his barriers trolled by Sisters of Silence. If he casts Miasma upon himself, he's probably the toughest thing in his league.

3++ is here to stay, until GW get tired of selling THSS Squads.

mario88826 wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Against anything with a - 2 rend (aka lascannons, meltas, other powerful single shot weapons) his 4++ and 5+++ are better than Magnus' 4++ re-rolling 1s.

Disgustingly Resilient also works against mortal wounds which is a huge benefit.

Yes, Magnus can cast Weaver of Fates but Morty can cast Miasma of Pestilence which has a similar or better result depending on who is shooting at him.

This guy looks like an absolute beast and will definitely be around the same impact as Guilliman and Magnus.

Well I know about miasma - but if you are not going first - then you won't have opportunity to cast it.

And guess where all lascannons and overheated plasmas will go ? Also Morty doesn't have equvialent of changeling who helps Magnus to survive even when isnt going 1st.
Given that I think it's safe to say Magnus is ... the resilient one there. But then again maybe there is hidden gem like actually 4+ FNP for Mortarion - then i suppose it would be making huge difference.

And again it seems like you guys dont understand what is my problem. He may be worth his points and hype but not in way he should be . That is my issue. He is not supposed to be insane killer machine fluff-wise.
He is known to outlast his opponents. So as i mentioned - he may be as powerful/useful as Magnus/Guilliman and still look disapointing in my eyes. Not what i was expecting. Too much focus on offensive, not enough on resilience.

Swaping his S with T would be at least good start.

If you're going to include The Changling in Magnus' cost, why are.t allowed to do the same when we don't even have all the information yet?

Let's not forget that Epidemius and some teleporting Obliterators can give Mortarion some pretty tasty buffs and draw fire for him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we need to review Steed characters.

Both Sorcerer and Lord are able to benefit from Herald aura. That means a Power Sword wounds Marines on a 3+ and Gravis on a 4+. That's not at all bad.

Both add 6+D6 to threat range. That applies to Psychic, Flamer or Melta, and also to melee.

Both get +1W and +1A. That means a Lord with MURDER SWORD is going to delete a 5W character if he doesn't miss with re-rollable 2+, and is much more able to catch the target. Decent candidate as guided missile to finish off many Lords of War? Certainly a frightening scarecrow. Maybe even try Warptime to take out an unharmed Warlord.

Lord's brilliant aura gets a reach buff from base size, and comparable relocatability with Jump Pack. Sorcerer's powers likewise benefit from reach and relocatability - this looks like a decent candidate for Death Hex to worry THSS teleporters.

I wanted to point out that there was a list posted in the NOVA thread in the General Discussion subforum that used Alpha Legion, but most importantly it used Arkos, who've I been saying is Faithless = Alpha Legion. Otherwise there's no point in using him just for the extra Command Point, so I wanted to look at him once again.

Not only is he a cheap option at 125 points, but he adds 1" to charge distances. That means Berserkers will be having a gay ol' time making it to the enemy. Not to mention that, because he has Alpha Legion and Aura, he's at -2 to hit. You can literally not be hit by shooting Orks and Conscripts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I wanted to point out that there was a list posted in the NOVA thread in the General Discussion subforum that used Alpha Legion, but most importantly it used Arkos, who've I been saying is Faithless = Alpha Legion.

That's not true though. The reason he's legal in that list is because an FaQ from FW gave him Alpha Legion in addition to The Faithless.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I wanted to point out that there was a list posted in the NOVA thread in the General Discussion subforum that used Alpha Legion, but most importantly it used Arkos, who've I been saying is Faithless = Alpha Legion.

That's not true though. The reason he's legal in that list is because an FaQ from FW gave him Alpha Legion in addition to The Faithless.

Nobody is going to buy him just for the additional command point because you might as well just get a Sorcerer instead.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Let's not forget that Epidemius and some teleporting Obliterators can give Mortarion some pretty tasty buffs and draw fire for him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we need to review Steed characters.

Both Sorcerer and Lord are able to benefit from Herald aura. That means a Power Sword wounds Marines on a 3+ and Gravis on a 4+. That's not at all bad.

Both add 6+D6 to threat range. That applies to Psychic, Flamer or Melta, and also to melee.

Both get +1W and +1A. That means a Lord with MURDER SWORD is going to delete a 5W character if he doesn't miss with re-rollable 2+, and is much more able to catch the target. Decent candidate as guided missile to finish off many Lords of War? Certainly a frightening scarecrow. Maybe even try Warptime to take out an unharmed Warlord.

Lord's brilliant aura gets a reach buff from base size, and comparable relocatability with Jump Pack. Sorcerer's powers likewise benefit from reach and relocatability - this looks like a decent candidate for Death Hex to worry THSS teleporters.

I got a well painted juggerlord I would love to use. But flying daemon prince seems to beat it in so many ways. Sure, the DP is more expensive, but it is hittier, has more hp, has a much bigger reach, and if its non-khorn, it even has psychic powers. Either I go all the way cheap, get a foot lord with no upgrades just for the aura, or a go the full bore and get a flying DP. The only other in between that fills up a niche is the jump pack sorceror or lord but that's because I would have a very specific deep strike unit or units that I feel that absolutely needs to be supported by exact placement of a jump pack lord or sorceror.

Honestly I want an FAQ or Errata on whether steed characters get their Legion bonuses. I just think it's stupid silly they don't RAW. Plus, as mentioned above, the Prince is just hitting everything better and is getting their Legion bonuses too!

I was specifically thinking of Steed of Slaanesh - and another fringe benefit over Jump Pack occurs to me; not having FLY means that some enemy weapons and units won't benefit from anti-air bonuses.Very marginal, but there you go - still a great choice of MS wielder, though.

Yeah, Juggerlord is in a difficult place right now. I guess an Axe of Blind Rage or other relic is the best way to make our conversions somewhat viable.

Yeah, I'm kind of bummed out about my own Juggerlord. He was my main beatstick HQ in my 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin army, and now he's all but useless except perhaps in casual games. My problem with Daemon Princes is that both of mine have weapons other than talons, although my group is probably okay with me saying he's got double talons (that axe is just a messed-up looking talon, because Chaos).

I just hope my Khorne Daemon Prince does okay in a tournament I've got coming up, as I'm going to try him with the Talisman of Burning Blood as kind of a suicide unit. I'll move and advance with him and keep an allied bike sorcerer behind him. The Sorcerer will cast Diabolic Strength and Warptime on him, after which he will move and advance again. Thanks to the Talisman, he can then charge something and hopefully kill the crap out of it before he gets shot to pieces.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Yeah, I'm kind of bummed out about my own Juggerlord. He was my main beatstick HQ in my 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin army, and now he's all but useless except perhaps in casual games. My problem with Daemon Princes is that both of mine have weapons other than talons, although my group is probably okay with me saying he's got double talons (that axe is just a messed-up looking talon, because Chaos).

I just hope my Khorne Daemon Prince does okay in a tournament I've got coming up, as I'm going to try him with the Talisman of Burning Blood as kind of a suicide unit. I'll move and advance with him and keep an allied bike sorcerer behind him. The Sorcerer will cast Diabolic Strength and Warptime on him, after which he will move and advance again. Thanks to the Talisman, he can then charge something and hopefully kill the crap out of it before he gets shot to pieces.

Thing to remember about princes is they can't be shot if they are the closest model.

Give them a guard of some rhinos with zerkers or other group in front absorb the shots as you get into combat.

My Slaanesh Prince tends to shred stuff when it gets into combat. Easily earns its points.

Mazzyx wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Yeah, I'm kind of bummed out about my own Juggerlord. He was my main beatstick HQ in my 7th edition Khorne Daemonkin army, and now he's all but useless except perhaps in casual games. My problem with Daemon Princes is that both of mine have weapons other than talons, although my group is probably okay with me saying he's got double talons (that axe is just a messed-up looking talon, because Chaos).

I just hope my Khorne Daemon Prince does okay in a tournament I've got coming up, as I'm going to try him with the Talisman of Burning Blood as kind of a suicide unit. I'll move and advance with him and keep an allied bike sorcerer behind him. The Sorcerer will cast Diabolic Strength and Warptime on him, after which he will move and advance again. Thanks to the Talisman, he can then charge something and hopefully kill the crap out of it before he gets shot to pieces.

Thing to remember about princes is they can't be shot if they are the closest model.

Give them a guard of some rhinos with zerkers or other group in front absorb the shots as you get into combat.

My Slaanesh Prince tends to shred stuff when it gets into combat. Easily earns its points.

So, maybe I should switch my Khorne Prince with Talisman into a Slaanesh Prince with Elixir? I could do that, although I'd have to move him from the WE detachment to the AL one (which would be easy as I've already got enough other guys to fill the slots). Maybe I'll do that actually, as I can then throw another Smite out there or a different power maybe. I just kind of like the idea of a WE prince with talons having 10(!) attacks on the charge (4 base, 1 for being Khorne, 3 for double talons, 1 on charge for being WE, and 1 for Diabolic Strength) that are S9 and do 2 damage each, plus they hit on 2's with rerolls of 1's. I guess the Slaanesh version does basically the same thing plus he's a psyker. That's a sad commentary on Khorne princes...

Ive had pretty good luck with my Nurgle DP but im never sure how to kit him out power wise do i try give him Miasma to be a bit of a support where he can help others or have him be a speed freak with warp time or maybe even give the squad of zerkers that usually accompany him up the table in a rhino prescience so they really hack peeps to pieces.

Belakor is another great option since that -5ap is something that absolutely terrifies termies and if he drops strength and hex he can vaporise a whole heap of them in one turn pretty easily, or even chew through most of a landraider/ knight in one charge

At the very least, dude should be T8, I mean come on. Magnus is T7 and tzeentch, burgle supposed to be tougher...

I agree even drop his strength and make his auras a little less powerful but make him properly tanky, A DP with a few bits of armour here and there have a 3+ save so not being T8 or having a 2+ seems very strange for one of the tankiest primarchs in a termy heavy legion

 Ubl1k wrote:
Belakor is another great option since that -5ap is something that absolutely terrifies termies and if he drops strength and hex he can vaporise a whole heap of them in one turn pretty easily, or even chew through most of a landraider/ knight in one charge

Only problem here is Be'lakor doesn't have the Heretic Astartes keyword. So even though he can cast Diabolic Strength, he can't cast it on himself.

 lindsay40k wrote:
I was specifically thinking of Steed of Slaanesh - and another fringe benefit over Jump Pack occurs to me; not having FLY means that some enemy weapons and units won't benefit from anti-air bonuses.Very marginal, but there you go - still a great choice of MS wielder, though.

Yeah, Juggerlord is in a difficult place right now. I guess an Axe of Blind Rage or other relic is the best way to make our conversions somewhat viable.

A Slaanesh Lord on Steed w/ 2x Lightning Claws is 6 Attacks at ap-1 1d, and 2 at s4 ap- 1d with a 12" Move + Advance and Charge.

I'm very strongly considering using them, as they're quite good for 107 points.

Now give him Blade of the Hydra and make him Alpharius.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

Death Guard traits, relics and some others.

Looking incredible.

Arch contaminator gives something CSM doesn't really have, which is a good way to boost wound rolls at range. Admittedly it's just for DG, and even then only a few units which already reroll ones, but it still seems useful. Depending on the new DG tank they might make a solid artillery/heavy support detachment.

A page or so ago the question was asked of why bother with a Dreadclaw when you could take a Kharybdis; when it comes to Helbrutes, both can carry only one. So if you want to deploy a Contemptor up close on the same first turn as a KaC drops off shock troops and gets Warptimed into the fray, DC is a cheaper option with less wasted space. In that case, the question is whether it's worth paying like 50% more to give it more endurance and two and a half assault cannon's worth of firepower, and making & transporting such a huge model for such a relatively modest passenger.

@Cephalobeard, might be a typo but you've understated the AP of Lightning Claws there.

What's the consensus on Heavy bolter Havocs for anti infantry and as an Alpha legion firebase? For just over 500 pts you can get a Chaos lord surrounded by 4 x 5 man havocs (16 HBolters). Rough calcs is 26 dead ork boyz / 18 Fire warriors / 13 marines. So effectively being able to wipe at least one, maybe one and a half opposing infantry squads a turn.

For slightly more pts I could get 3 x 5 man squads with Missile launchers for more flexibility ( reduced anti infantry - 15 dead boyz ). Bear in mind I plan to take 2 x 3 Obliterators for anti-tank, Alpha strike.

If you're already taking Obliterators, I'd say go for Autocannons or Heavy Bolters.

 lindsay40k wrote:
A page or so ago the question was asked of why bother with a Dreadclaw when you could take a Kharybdis; when it comes to Helbrutes, both can carry only one. So if you want to deploy a Contemptor up close on the same first turn as a KaC drops off shock troops and gets Warptimed into the fray, DC is a cheaper option with less wasted space. In that case, the question is whether it's worth paying like 50% more to give it more endurance and two and a half assault cannon's worth of firepower, and making & transporting such a huge model for such a relatively modest passenger.

I'd take a Dreadclaw for Helbrutes and a Kharybdis for 20 man units. I feel like that makes the most sense point for point when you add everything together. You aren't spending more on the Kharybdis for its toughness, you're spending it to be a fire magnet, and 20 man units need a fire magnet buddy more than a Contemptor does.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/

Death Guard traits, relics and some others.

Looking incredible.

Stratagems are VERY unimpressive, like what is even purpose of Cloud of flies ? I won't spend command point to hide my plague marines or poxwalkers, why would i do anything stupid like that. I already paid royally to field those guys with high resilience. So they can soak damage for me .
It's not like we have any equivalent of havocs (was hoping for some bio-weapons/chemical squad ) to protect. And since we don't have any extra sources of command points like abaddon/guilliman - then wasting them like that would be unwise at best.
And casting this on terminators seems even more stupid - they should be super tanky and most importantly after deep strike they will be probably the closest opponent anyway.

Nurgle Rot ? Really 3 CP ? It's 50% of CPs normal army will have in first place for mere chance to deal of average of 1 mortal wound (simple math 50% for D3) ... I will never ever even consider using it unless idk flooded by 5-6 independent units at least within 7".

Putrid detonation - ok this could be situational and be of any use. But then again - you would have to take land raider to utilize this. On bloat drone it's useless - it already got 4+ to explode for whooping 1 mortal wound ;x. On the other hand if I will have some predators/defilers/plagueburst crawlers behind shooting and someone deepstrike them into CC - then yeah. That is why this stratagem at least is medicore - not straightforward bad as those above.

But traits are okay - especially Revoltingly Resilient - kinda autopick compared to others. ACTUALLY READ LAST PARAGRAPH. It's weak.
Though Archcontaminator seems potentially super dangerous combined not with actually CC weapons but blight launchers/plague spitters etc. This is actually best trait , but we still don't know about 3 others.
Overall traits are balanced and okay.
Now that I think of it - Daemon prince could be potentially really powerful support character - already rerolling 1's and then rerolling all wounds for all plague artilery / flamers. On top of that psyker and formidable combatant. Only weak part is that he doesn't have plague weapon himself ;x.

Speaking of relics - kinda disappointing except for The supporating Plate - and then again it's only useable on Daemon Prince. Why would you give it to Lord of contagion who already has 2+, though secondary effect is super powerful.

Weak stratagems so far - but there is more.
Warlord traits are okay - hopefully Mortarion actually has this one with FNP 4+.
Relics are average, with plate being STRONG.

Edit 1: Did some math and FNP 4+ is inferior to CSM general trait of +1W and yet another 6+ FNP. 4+ FNP stops 50%(not Mortals!) of damage instead of 33%, BUT 6+ FNP after 5+ FNP gives you roughly 44% damage stopped. (including mortal wounds). But then it gives +1 Wound aswell.
So I would still take CSM codex warlord trait ... as it's ... better. Funny isn't it ? More like Pathethic ...