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Niiru wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyway, they have yet to reveal the DG legion traits also. They confirmed that DR is not a legion trait. So, this is something that affects all DG infantry and dreadnaughts,

Kinda sad that since we don't have bikers and our iconic "dread" is Bloat drone - I would prefer it to be affected by Legion trait - in place of our non-existent bikers. Because lets face it we all love new bloat drone - it's lovely. I'm really curious about 2 other weapons for CC and long range.

As of DG trait I have no clue what it can be, but I hope it won't be rerolling 1's on FNP. That would be lame as no bikers or brutes could benefit from it in first place.

I haven't looked at many of the leaks of the DG codex yet, have they shown bikers/helbrute rules that show they don't get FNP? I thought everything in the DG codex got Disgustingly Resilient.

If not, then the legion trait may be something like "All infanty, bikers and helbrutes in a DG detachment gain disgustingly resilient."

It was hinted that Disgustingly Resilient is not legion trait.

But on the other hand it would be really nice if anything fielded in battle forged DG detachment actually got this FNP. We lost access to really many units normal CSM can take, so some compensation would be welcome.

Hell yeah that would make some units like possessed and helbrutes pretty good.
But i wouldn't count on that sadly ;/. Good things don't happen to Nurgle.

On side note I find it weird that those Nurgle models look splendid and beautiful, but in fact their rules are bloated and roted to core . Don't judge book by it's cover HAHAAHHAAHAHHAAHHAHA.

mario, you keep saying you are going to reserve judgement until the codex drops. But there is so much judgement in what you are laying out...

Something to consider. In 8th edition, models drop off the board much faster than in previous editions. What makes Death Guard special is that they are not going to do that, at least not as fast. From what we know about the new Codex, the point seems to be that DG just don't die easily.

Not sure what you were expecting, but this seems to be an attrition army. It's totally fine to say you don't like such a thing, but I don't see where the rules are all that bad considering the nature of the force. The stratagems are no better or worse than what other armies have, same with the special rules.

 techsoldaten wrote:
mario, you keep saying you are going to reserve judgement until the codex drops. But there is so much judgement in what you are laying out...

Something to consider. In 8th edition, models drop off the board much faster than in previous editions. What makes Death Guard special is that they are not going to do that, at least not as fast. From what we know about the new Codex, the point seems to be that DG just don't die easily.

Not sure what you were expecting, but this seems to be an attrition army. It's totally fine to say you don't like such a thing, but I don't see where the rules are all that bad considering the nature of the force. The stratagems are no better or worse than what other armies have, same with the special rules.

Ok indeed i post a bit too much of recent. But my point is they are not that resilent at all. And you have to pay VERY HEAVILY for extra resilence. When others just can field more bodies instead ... Who happen to be doing more damage aswell.

Good example what i'm saying is plague marine - 19 points (used to be 21 points ...) - improved resilience but that guy is still just 1 swing in CC, and simple bolter. Fact is you can just get 3 CSM Marines for your 2 plague Marines. It will be equally hard to kill them and they just do 50% more damage plain and simple. Idk how is that fair, also it helps to fill troop tax much easier aswell. This gets even more dire when you compare them to primaris marines who cost same per model but get 2 wounds , MUCH better gun and twice as many attacks ... 2 wounds beat 1 wound even with T5 and FNP. Last but not least all those mentioned marines have movement of 6 compared to Plague Marines 5 - rendering them as assault unit aswell unless with expensive transport.

And here I can pass final judgement as plague marines full value and stats were updated in recent CSM codex.

So to wrap it up : yeah DG units are more resilient but at same time way more expensive so in fact it's as easy to table them as anyone else- as example with plague marine vs csm marine proves. At same time they don't pack punch at all. This is why i'm concerned.
So idk what war attrition means if you don't have anything going for you.

To show you what balanced and solid cult marine looks and it's priced as it should be is Rubricae Marine :
1. Very resilient against 1 damage attacks - and those usually are aimed at your troops, when bigger guns go for Magnus/Vehicles/Other heavy stuff.
2. Even against bigger guns they still hold on 5+ invu when such plague marine is striped to no armor against helblaster shoot.
3. And most importantly along extra resilience they also hit like a truck with -2 AP bolters.

For DG units we get random +1T and FNP and suddenly price goes up 50% out of nowhere. So yeah sounds like gak :(.

You have to understand we are waiting for codex from people who put original prices in mini book for DG like that: Bloat drone - 206 (my God ...) , LoC 184 (hohoho) , plague marines - 21 points ( yep no mistake 8 points more than normal CSM for what ?). So yeah i have my faith shattered as for now.
Can you really trust when someone charges you for FNP 50% or more compared to equivalents without ? I don't :(.

I get your point about bodies versus wounds.

All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.

Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I get your point about bodies versus wounds.

All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.

Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.

Ok lets wait for codex and chapters approved. Maybe you are right, that stuff may not be balanced now but can get better - like CSM codex shows.

I gotta stick with DG since i just like fluff and just style of this faction along with fantastic models .

Screw it ... maybe winning is not everything . Though would be nice bonus .

 techsoldaten wrote:
I get your point about bodies versus wounds.

All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.

Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.

Well, basically at 19 points a PM isn't actually any tougher than a normal CSM. Toughness 5 and DR result in roughly a 50% increase in durability, and the model costs roughly 50% more. What PM's actually get it is the ability to load up with more wargear than a normal CSM, making them more expensive units with higher firepower and some startlingly cheap weapon options.

Generally this a problem you saw magnified even worse for index DG, they were priced such that they weren't any more durable than other models for their points, often were less durable (PM were less durable than CSM squads for their points). Sometimes they'd have other advantages, sometimes they wouldn't.

Seeing them put PM at 19 makes me think they've admitted there was a problem but are being conservative about fixing it (19 ppm is the very outer range of acceptable pricing imo). Even that seemed an odd price when they were elites, only really palatable for troop PM imo. So I'm still thinking the issue will exist in the codex. Not as bad perhaps, but I think it'll still be a thing.

Disregard

SilverAlien wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I get your point about bodies versus wounds.

All I know is the overpriced units in the Index went down in cost when the CSM Codex was released. I think GW is trying hard to do right by CSMs in general, and I can't think of a reason they would screw with DG too hard.

Let's see what they come up with. I personally think Plague Marines are priced right in the Codex, they are damn tough on the table.

Well, basically at 19 points a PM isn't actually any tougher than a normal CSM. Toughness 5 and DR result in roughly a 50% increase in durability, and the model costs roughly 50% more. What PM's actually get it is the ability to load up with more wargear than a normal CSM, making them more expensive units with higher firepower and some startlingly cheap weapon options.

Generally this a problem you saw magnified even worse for index DG, they were priced such that they weren't any more durable than other models for their points, often were less durable (PM were less durable than CSM squads for their points). Sometimes they'd have other advantages, sometimes they wouldn't.

Seeing them put PM at 19 makes me think they've admitted there was a problem but are being conservative about fixing it (19 ppm is the very outer range of acceptable pricing imo). Even that seemed an odd price when they were elites, only really palatable for troop PM imo. So I'm still thinking the issue will exist in the codex. Not as bad perhaps, but I think it'll still be a thing.

Honestly I just want Plague Marines to have 2 attacks again without having to give up the Bolter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I just want Plague Marines to have 2 attacks again without having to give up the Bolter

Can I ask why? Just a fluff thing or wanting continuity?

I ask because I think that'd actually make them less useful, unless they stayed the same price which I don't consider likely. As it is, you can kit them out as melee specialists, ranged specialists, or a generalist build. Giving them two attacks base and the corresponding price increase honestly just prevents them from acting as a proper ranged unit and might mess up their really efficiently priced melee options.

Honestly, 1-2 bolters are fairly useless. Give a couple flails or axe+knife if you want some melee power on the unit, it's more than enough to compensate for one attack on the other models.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disregard

If you were still wondering, the Fire Raptor is a beast: I used it today against an Ork player with a Nurgle Sorcerer for -1 to hit and my opponent couldn't actually shoot at it because he was BS5+. I did kind of feel sorry for him till he blasted my new, painted up cultists off the board, such a crime could not be forgiven (especially when I had a unit of my old ugly looking cultists right next to them).

As soon as you get the -2 to hit the Fire Raptor is an untouchable fire magnet: your opponent needs to fire at it but they can't hit it.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disregard

If you were still wondering, the Fire Raptor is a beast: I used it today against an Ork player with a Nurgle Sorcerer for -1 to hit and my opponent couldn't actually shoot at it because he was BS5+. I did kind of feel sorry for him till he blasted my new, painted up cultists off the board, such a crime could not be forgiven (especially when I had a unit of my old ugly looking cultists right next to them).

As soon as you get the -2 to hit the Fire Raptor is an untouchable fire magnet: your opponent needs to fire at it but they can't hit it.

Yeah. I'm feeling like it's not too shabby. Without a natural Inv save, though, a 362pt Flyer feels pretty dangerous in a world where it can be killed in 3 lucky lascannon shots with zero defense.

I also hear they're absolute abominations to build, but thats a separate topic.

I most certainly didn't break both sides of the fuselage when putting it together and have to fix it with green stuff...

 mrhappyface wrote:
I most certainly didn't break both sides of the fuselage when putting it together and have to fix it with green stuff...

Yeah. It's a lovely model, but I can't help but have PTSD from building Three Y'Vahra, let alone a giant plane.

Try a Stormbird. You have to assemble the parts to assemble after treating them to make sure they fit first. It's cheaper and better to just use a Lego one.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Destroyer_Marine

So actually if GW wanted - they could give us nice ranged stuff if they wanted and fluff wise also accurate.
Like equivalent for removed havocs/oblits - and still in theme of DG.

"Led by a Space Marine Sergeant, Destroyer Squads were most typically equipped with Missile Launchers armed with Rad Missiles or Volkite Serpenta. They also commonly carried Phosphex Bombs, Rad Grenades, and Melta bombs.[1] To better rain death upon their foes, they were sometimes equipped with Jump Packs.[3]"

Melta bombs/phosphex bombs/rad missiles ? Sounds like pure DG thing.

or maybe we actually will get those guys ?

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
I most certainly didn't break both sides of the fuselage when putting it together and have to fix it with green stuff...

Yeah. It's a lovely model, but I can't help but have PTSD from building Three Y'Vahra, let alone a giant plane.

But once you've got through the few hours it takes to put it together, the pay off is worth it... Only a few bits have needed to be re-glued since then...

mario88826 wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Destroyer_Marine

So actually if GW wanted - they could give us nice ranged stuff if they wanted and fluff wise also accurate.
Like equivalent for removed havocs/oblits - and still in theme of DG.

"Led by a Space Marine Sergeant, Destroyer Squads were most typically equipped with Missile Launchers armed with Rad Missiles or Volkite Serpenta. They also commonly carried Phosphex Bombs, Rad Grenades, and Melta bombs.[1] To better rain death upon their foes, they were sometimes equipped with Jump Packs.[3]"

Melta bombs/phosphex bombs/rad missiles ? Sounds like pure DG thing.

or maybe we actually will get those guys ?

This would be so cool! I do suspect we will get atleast some kind of special havocs and these fit perfectly. Idk about DG obliterators or anything with jump packs or bikes, seems to fast paced for DG and obliterators are already unique so I doubt there will be a different version of them. DG havocs would add some much needed offensive punch while keeping i theme of footslogging marines.

 Arkaine wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."

But... but... English... not how works it...

I can only eat ice cream if it is frozen. <-- implies the ice cream must be cold to be eaten
If it is frozen, I can only eat ice cream. <-- implies my food selections are limited to junk food

Sometimes it works either way but not always and that's why you can't just switch things around like that.

Actually suppose all there is to eat is ice cream...

1. I can only eat ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to do nothing but eat ice cream

2. I can eat only ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat nothing but ice cream

3. I can eat ice cream only if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat ice cream

1 is RAW. 3 is (presumably) RAI.

Oh lord I can already see someone arguing #1 "see, the cloud of flies is so large you can't see anything behind them, so you have to target the unit in front".

mario88826 wrote:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Destroyer_Marine

So actually if GW wanted - they could give us nice ranged stuff if they wanted and fluff wise also accurate.
Like equivalent for removed havocs/oblits - and still in theme of DG.

"Led by a Space Marine Sergeant, Destroyer Squads were most typically equipped with Missile Launchers armed with Rad Missiles or Volkite Serpenta. They also commonly carried Phosphex Bombs, Rad Grenades, and Melta bombs.[1] To better rain death upon their foes, they were sometimes equipped with Jump Packs.[3]"

Melta bombs/phosphex bombs/rad missiles ? Sounds like pure DG thing.

or maybe we actually will get those guys ?

They actually mentioned the blight launcher is supposed to pay homage to both the rad missle launchers with suspensors as well as the GL in the grave wardens. So it wouldn't shock me if we had a PM variant that could load up on a few more special weapons and possibly had a couple additional unique ones.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Actually... that's clearly the intention, due to the description of the flies hiding the unit, but... it does say "enemy units can only shoot this unit if it is the closest visible target". I can see how it could be read as "If it is the closest visible unit, enemies can only shoot this unit."

But... but... English... not how works it...

I can only eat ice cream if it is frozen. <-- implies the ice cream must be cold to be eaten
If it is frozen, I can only eat ice cream. <-- implies my food selections are limited to junk food

Sometimes it works either way but not always and that's why you can't just switch things around like that.

Actually suppose all there is to eat is ice cream...

1. I can only eat ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to do nothing but eat ice cream

2. I can eat only ice cream if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat nothing but ice cream

3. I can eat ice cream only if it is all we have to eat. <-- you are allowed to eat ice cream

1 is RAW. 3 is (presumably) RAI.

Ahh English.

To the person who said that I was incorrect in my 'translation', I was simply pointing out that I can see how people could read the sentence both ways. I personally read it the "right" way the first time I read the rule, but I can see how and why people might read it differently.

English can be funny like that sometimes, I think it's because we don't structure our grammar as much as many languages do. In some languages, if you reorganise a sentence it no longer makes sense, but as... Abbadabbadooban? Really? I only just noticed that name, that's brilliant. But as he shows, you can have three different meanings with essentially the same sentance, and sometimes multiple meanings with one sentence depending on emphasis.

I do think the rule making a unit a fire magnet for a turn would be fun though, but the RAI is clearly meant to be making them immune to targetting for a turn. In fact, if they had worded the rule "This unit is unable to be targetted unless it is the closest visible unit" there would be no ambivalence. But GW don't get English graduates to proof-read their rules. I'm not sure anyone proof reads their rules sometimes!

Maybe someone could clarify something for me... but can Hellforged (Forgeworld) Dreads gain Chapter Tactics? I know they added the Hellbrute Keyword in one FAQ, but a very capable tournament player I know says that GW elsewhere said they could not.

Edit: Apparently it came up at NOVA where a judge deferred to a FB post from Warhammer Community where the answer provided is very much not the way the rest of the strategems are written... saying keywords don't matter unit name does (even though they always refer to keywords like Infantry, etc)

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Maybe someone could clarify something for me... but can Hellforged (Forgeworld) Dreads gain Chapter Tactics? I know they added the Hellbrute Keyword in one FAQ, but a very capable tournament player I know says that GW elsewhere said they could not.

FW said they got chapter tactics.

If the rule allows for Helbrute keyword (not unit), then it gets the rule. The difference evidently is "Helbrute" is bolded when it is a keyword.

SilverAlien wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly I just want Plague Marines to have 2 attacks again without having to give up the Bolter

Can I ask why? Just a fluff thing or wanting continuity?

I ask because I think that'd actually make them less useful, unless they stayed the same price which I don't consider likely. As it is, you can kit them out as melee specialists, ranged specialists, or a generalist build. Giving them two attacks base and the corresponding price increase honestly just prevents them from acting as a proper ranged unit and might mess up their really efficiently priced melee options.

Honestly, 1-2 bolters are fairly useless. Give a couple flails or axe+knife if you want some melee power on the unit, it's more than enough to compensate for one attack on the other models.

Continuity. All the Cult Marines besides Rubrics have always at minimum 2 attacks.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If the rule allows for Helbrute keyword (not unit), then it gets the rule. The difference evidently is "Helbrute" is bolded when it is a keyword.

The rule states that INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units get legion traits. So yeh, all the forgeworld hellforged units are HELBRUTE now as of the faq, and so that tournament judge is very bad at his job.

If, as he says, it only effects unit names, and therefore only the CSM "Helbrute" unit, then it would also only effect the CSM "Infantry" unit and the CSM "Bikers" unit.

There is no such unit as "Infantry" or "Bikers". (There is "Chaos Bikers", but that's not the same now is it)

Judge is an idiot. Or, in fairness, the person posting on the warhammer community facebook page is an idiot. Though the judge taking an obviously incorrect facebook post as a source for rules is pretty foolish by itself.

Niiru wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If the rule allows for Helbrute keyword (not unit), then it gets the rule. The difference evidently is "Helbrute" is bolded when it is a keyword.

The rule states that INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units get legion traits. So yeh, all the forgeworld hellforged units are HELBRUTE now as of the faq, and so that tournament judge is very bad at his job.

If, as he says, it only effects unit names, and therefore only the CSM "Helbrute" unit, then it would also only effect the CSM "Infantry" unit and the CSM "Bikers" unit.

There is no such unit as "Infantry" or "Bikers". (There is "Chaos Bikers", but that's not the same now is it)

Judge is an idiot. Or, in fairness, the person posting on the warhammer community facebook page is an idiot. Though the judge taking an obviously incorrect facebook post as a source for rules is pretty foolish by itself.

I agree with this 100%, and it seems as cut and dry as I suspected. I just wanted to make sure before I go arguing against someone trying to repeat that awful NOVA judge-call.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Disregard

If you were still wondering, the Fire Raptor is a beast: I used it today against an Ork player with a Nurgle Sorcerer for -1 to hit and my opponent couldn't actually shoot at it because he was BS5+. I did kind of feel sorry for him till he blasted my new, painted up cultists off the board, such a crime could not be forgiven (especially when I had a unit of my old ugly looking cultists right next to them).

As soon as you get the -2 to hit the Fire Raptor is an untouchable fire magnet: your opponent needs to fire at it but they can't hit it.

Do you mind walking me through how the raptor can get -2 to hit?

Does the raptor need to be a DG legion to be affected by the nurgle sorcerers psyhic power?

O.o

Also... man, this is F'n awesome!

 whembly wrote:
Do you mind walking me through how the raptor can get -2 to hit?

Does the raptor need to be a DG legion to be affected by the nurgle sorcerers psyhic power?

O.o

Also... man, this is F'n awesome!

The Fire Raptor has [MARK OF CHAOS] Keyword which you can make Nurgle. In the CSM codex there is a psychic power that only affects Nurgle models which gives a single unit a -1 to hit.

All I did was take a Night Lords detachment with 2x Sorcerers, 3xCultists and a Fire Raptor and gave them all the Nurgle Keyword, honestly it hurts my fluffy side a little but it's a compromise from the part of me that wanted to give all my NL units the ALPHA LEGION keyword for a better legion tactic.

Im considering adding a 'centerpiece' unit to a chaos army, and was wondering which of the following hellforged units are worth taking, or the best value on the table?

Land Raider Achilles
Land Raider Prometheues

Fire Raptor
Storm Eagle

 mrhappyface wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Do you mind walking me through how the raptor can get -2 to hit?

Does the raptor need to be a DG legion to be affected by the nurgle sorcerers psyhic power?

O.o

Also... man, this is F'n awesome!

The Fire Raptor has [MARK OF CHAOS] Keyword which you can make Nurgle. In the CSM codex there is a psychic power that only affects Nurgle models which gives a single unit a -1 to hit.

All I did was take a Night Lords detachment with 2x Sorcerers, 3xCultists and a Fire Raptor and gave them all the Nurgle Keyword, honestly it hurts my fluffy side a little but it's a compromise from the part of me that wanted to give all my NL units the ALPHA LEGION keyword for a better legion tactic.

That Nurgle psychic power stack??? I was under the impression that those powers do not ever stack...

EDIT: Just realized the Fire Rapter has innate -1 hard to hit.

COOL!

<whem is going to paint his fire raptor for his next tourny... along with Morty! >