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Here's a tactica/list-building question...

Assuming all other things equal, in a well rounded list, which would you prefer to take...

1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)

2. Replacing the above with two units of Obliterators (one Slaanesh for possible double-fire, one Tzeentch to benefit from a nearby Changeling)

Either permutation would result in my list ending up legal, and netting 8CP, but I am really conflicted as to which option to take for an upcoming GT.

mario88826 wrote:
@ kessthanjeff

Well sorry mate, but I disagree. Rubric Marines tend to be extremely durable against very popular weapons like ASS-cannons , bolters or even non overheated-plasma.

Simple comparison against very popular in this meta assault cannon - both will be wounded on 3+ , but Rubric will remain 2+ in cover and 3+ outside of cover - when plague Marines will have 3+ and 4+ respectively. Sure there is FNP. But I would call that far from being more durable especially in cover Rubric Marines shine big time. And damn assault cannons are one of dominant in this meta weapons who like to aim infantry !

Against multi wound weapons both cult marines have serious problems as chain rolling 5+ is already pretty hard even against D2 weapons it's 1 out of 9... Rubric lose thier extra armor there, but very often when you are outside of cover - or enemy can ignore cover they at least can hide behind invu save to bounce of multi melta/ hellblaster or lascannon. And what about plague marine ? Can you really Pass 6 times FNP for example ?

So it's situational really but against tons of stuff Rubrics hold better or equally than Plague Marines - and at same time and same cost they dish SUBSTANTIALLY more firepower - inferno bolters are threat to anything but T8 targets, and even those you can damage with Veteran stratagem.
While Plague Marines who don't hold some xpensive special weapon simply cannot hurt anything - against other marines thier pathethic S4 no AP bolters basically bounce off.

Good example is to simply put rubric in front of plague marine and let them fight - i bet my money on rubric dude. GL getting through 2+ WITHOUT even need to be in cover. While despite T5 and FNP you get save of 5+ or 4+ if you sit in cover ...

And stop being so optimistic in your bolter comparison - more and more bolters are replaced by autobolt rifles - so Rubric in cover is still 2+ when your Plague Marine let TWICE as many hits gets through - same against popular ASS-Cannons.

So I'm doing the math with and without cover and I've still gotta disagree with you here.

Against bolters, the Plague Marine is hands down tougher in all setups.

Against the assault cannon: They are equally durable.

Against Plasma Guns: The rubric is 3.7% less likely to die if it's not overcharged and there is no cover but in all other situations where cover or overcharging is involved the plague marine ends up less likely to take damage sometimes by as much as 12%.

Even for the bolt rifles (which I assume is what you meant since autobolt rifles don't have any different ap values or anything to change the numbers from regular bolters) that you're saying I'm being too generous to not consider I'm seeing the plague marines are universally tougher against than rubrics with or without cover.

I think you said something about a math degree, but I'm not understanding where your math or your assertions are coming from. Why don't we compare computations for a moment here.

Bolt Rifle against target in the open
Plague Marine: 1/3 to wound, 1/2 to fail save, 2/3 to fail fnp= 1/9 chance for a hit to kill
Rubric Marine: 1/2 to wound, 1/3 to fail save=1/6 chance for a hit to kill

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)

My experience is limited, but when I used my contemptor with 1x Kheres and 1x Deathclaw, that helbrute must have taken total 15-17 damage during the game as I managed to gain wounds back with the machina malifica ability. If you go dual-kheres, you will shoot hard but your dread will be basically useless if anything charges it, it will just attack 4 times WS 2+ S 7 but AP 0 D 1. Some hordes it could kill little by little, but were it charged by vehicle or any elite high save unit it will be bogged down easily. It also has 5++ save which becomes 4++ in melee.

All in all, I would personally always have one melee weapon bought for it as it's rules support melee fighting. The unit itself has good movement speed (9") and can easily move and shoot heavy weapons while closing in on enemy with BS 2+. With melee weapon it can threaten most vehicles and characters and will just rip through MEQs.

EDIT:
Ok, I reconsidered your whole original question, and I would say go with the Obliterators. Your 2x Kheres Contemptor + 10 extra berserkers (on top of you having already 10 berserkers in list) is huge amount of horde control, but at the same time these don't really increase your anti-vehicle firepower - Kheres are very unoptimal against any T 7 Sv 3+ units.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/07/codex-focus-death-guard-part-2-special-rules-and-psychic-powers-sep-7gw-homepage-post-2/

AND THAT IS SOMETHING. Finally we getting useful stuff.

You see I was only complaining when we got only sour candy .
Now that ... I can see TACTIC for DG where they are not there to get wrecked by others.

Actually even though a bit overpriced - I can see units like CC oriented Plague Marines actually being able to demolish ANYTHING including stuff like Custodes. That is if they strike first.

Just imagine Veteran of Long War combined with Blades of Putrefaction and/or Putrescent Vitality. They would be wounding with proper CC weapons on 2+ rerolling 1's and on top of that doing mortal wounds on 5+ !!

Legion Trait looks good , but idk about what heavy weapons they are talking about - except for Brute there is hardly anyone to benefit from this Trait.

Though now Plasma guns and Blight Launchers suddenly got even better.
Helbrute moving up 8" and still hiting on 3+ with twin lascannon ?

Now this doesn't sound like rant? Of course not since actually useful stuff for army I want to expand .

Seems like we have to use psyker heavy armies to do well. Fair enough.

@ lessthanjeff

I didn't say that Rubrics are all day long more resilient against anything in any situation. So please don't bring quiet pitiful arguments of my math failing. As yourself proved that there are situations where defense against ASS-Cannons can equal and against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines. Thanks since I wasn't even running math for it , just guessed . Glad I was right.
Against Auto Bolt rifle your math is correct, but once again supporting my statement - you intentionally forget case when marines are in cover - and that is case very often. In that situation Plague Marine gets wounded with 7% chance and Rubric with 8%. So yeah hardly "disgustingly resilient" compared to TS Marine.

Entire problem I have with typical Plague Marine is that they don't have punch and we are paying too much for just toughness. Where Rubric is nearly as tough and punches WAY HARDER.

But I start to see merit in DG guys as of now with new psychic powers and legion trait. Now they still shoot useless bolters but rapid firing at 18" ... Okay so they double damage 6" before Rubrics ! In CC they got more potential aswell.
So maybe - actually i'm 100% sure everyone is right i should hold my judgement till we get codex .

mario88826 wrote:


I didn't say that Rubrics are all day long more resilient against anything in any situation. So please don't bring quiet pitiful arguments of my math failing. As yourself proved that there are situations where defense against ASS-Cannons can equal and against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines. Thanks since I wasn't even running math for it , just guessed . Glad I was right.
Against Auto Bolt rifle your math is correct, but once again supporting my statement - you intentionally forget case when marines are in cover - and that is case very often. In that situation Plague Marine gets wounded with 7% chance and Rubric with 8%. So yeah hardly "disgustingly resilient" compared to TS Marine.

Entire problem I have with typical Plague Marine is that they don't have punch and we are paying too much for just toughness. Where Rubric is nearly as tough and punches WAY HARDER.

But I start to see merit in DG guys as of now with new psychic powers and legion trait. Now they still shoot useless bolters but rapid firing at 18" ... Okay so they double damage 6" before Rubrics ! In CC they got more potential aswell.
So maybe - actually i'm 100% sure everyone is right i should hold my judgement till we get codex .

Your quote from page 82 that encouraged me to start running comparisons was "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT". If you're changing your statement now that's fine, but don't say I'm the one putting those words in your mouth. I'm replying to you.

Another of your quotes was "against tons of stuff Rubrics hold better or equally than Plague Marines". I've not found tons of stuff though. I've found one calculation for one weapon type that showed a 3.7% advantage while 3 other setups with the same exact weapon under different circumstances show as much as a 12% advantage the other way. It makes less sense to me that you read that and then replied "against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines".

I haven't forgotten cover's effect either. I specifically showed how cover calculations make the Plague Marines even tougher in comparison because the rubric invul stays the same but Plague Marines get a better save. I used it specifically in my first lascannon example but it also applied to the plasma gun calculations I gave you which showed Plague Marines being tougher. I did not intentionally leave it off from the bolt rifle comparison either and I don't know why you're using it to support your claim that "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT" as it also shows the plague marine is harder to kill. It's one of many similar results I found.

Had a pretty good innings for Konor today. Death Hex is murder for Thunderwolves, lost count of how many died after hacking their Storm Shields. Space Wolf units just deleted me in CC in 7ed, this time a Thunderwolf Lord charged my Word Bearers Berzerkers and got ripped apart. They weren't even a massive unit or carrying any big axes or fists, I built them as fencers & Matrix gunslingers as a project and wanted to see how they'd fare. So yeah, you can load out Zerks suboptimally and get charged by beatsticks and still wreck face. (EDIT: Dark Apostle and DTTFE -helped a lot. I was getting fifty hits per fight phase)

Building up a Disc Herald and Disc Sorcerer, going to see what Tzeentch Possessed can do with some nasty buffs. Not sure if I'll bother with Changeling? It feels like I may as well spend the points on more Possessed and not have to worry about conga lining back to him or leaving another character out the Brigade?

Anyone having luck with Screamers? I'd like to run a load of them alongside this lot but 5 Power for three with 2W and one alright attack hitting on 4+ just doesn't feel like it compares with Fiends' unique superpower, or Seekers' bucket of rending attacks. Nine of them can fly over stuff and inflict 1.5MW before getting kicked to death, for nearly half the cost of a flipping Land Raider. Impressive threat radius, but Slaanesh seems to do that better? Probably only going to use them in Narrative Play when I've got a stationary Tzeentch Sorcerer who may as well make a free unit....

 lessthanjeff wrote:

mario88826 wrote:


I didn't say that Rubrics are all day long more resilient against anything in any situation. So please don't bring quiet pitiful arguments of my math failing. As yourself proved that there are situations where defense against ASS-Cannons can equal and against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines. Thanks since I wasn't even running math for it , just guessed . Glad I was right.
Against Auto Bolt rifle your math is correct, but once again supporting my statement - you intentionally forget case when marines are in cover - and that is case very often. In that situation Plague Marine gets wounded with 7% chance and Rubric with 8%. So yeah hardly "disgustingly resilient" compared to TS Marine.

Entire problem I have with typical Plague Marine is that they don't have punch and we are paying too much for just toughness. Where Rubric is nearly as tough and punches WAY HARDER.

But I start to see merit in DG guys as of now with new psychic powers and legion trait. Now they still shoot useless bolters but rapid firing at 18" ... Okay so they double damage 6" before Rubrics ! In CC they got more potential aswell.
So maybe - actually i'm 100% sure everyone is right i should hold my judgement till we get codex .

Your quote from page 82 that encouraged me to start running comparisons was "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT". If you're changing your statement now that's fine, but don't say I'm the one putting those words in your mouth. I'm replying to you.

Another of your quotes was "against tons of stuff Rubrics hold better or equally than Plague Marines". I've not found tons of stuff though. I've found one calculation for one weapon type that showed a 3.7% advantage while 3 other setups with the same exact weapon under different circumstances show as much as a 12% advantage the other way. It makes less sense to me that you read that and then replied "against plasma often it can even exceed that of Plague Marines".

I haven't forgotten cover's effect either. I specifically showed how cover calculations make the Plague Marines even tougher in comparison because the rubric invul stays the same but Plague Marines get a better save. I used it specifically in my first lascannon example but it also applied to the plasma gun calculations I gave you which showed Plague Marines being tougher. I did not intentionally leave it off from the bolt rifle comparison either and I don't know why you're using it to support your claim that "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT" as it also shows the plague marine is harder to kill. It's one of many similar results I found.

Ok I though we can move on with this, but since you really want more examples then let's point out those.

Against meltagun/multi melta - in open Plague Marine gets completly stripped out of armor :
So vs PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to get through FNP in case of damage 1 - but that is hardly case since D2 it's 8/9 already and gets worse for PM with more damage rolled.Only in 1/6 case PM gets better chances to survive (when damage rolled on melta is 1).
vs RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to get through armor. So yeah 10/18 to kill RM

Although we already spoken about plasma - let's dig deeper - as of now we got access to juicy helblasters. And expect those to be pretty popular. Hell your Plague Marines do experience them right in Dark Imperium starting BOX!!!

without overheating in open (and trust me you will in open pretty damn often with plague marines - read thier new legion trait / setup)

VS PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to pass FNP - 4/9 to nail one. 44% to go down. In cover it's 37% - so less durable in cover than RM in open - quiet powerful argument is it ?
VS RM 2/3 to wound and 1/2 to get through armor - RM dying in 33,3% cases (All is dust states all save gets better !)

Against overheated plasma in open / cover

VS PM 2/3 to wound and 8/9 to get through FNP - 16/27 so 59,2% . In cover its 2/3*5/6*8/9= 80/162 - 49% STILL not much improvement.
VS RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to make it through invu - 10/18 - 55% to kill RM. In cover same (unless cover improves invu save which i don't think).

EDIT : Ok actually there is way more just like I said - so let's move to something you face VERY often on table - your good ol lasgun and thier cc weapons all S3 AP0 - just to make sure we don't raise case of cover.

VS PM 1/3 to wound 1/3 to make through armor and 2/3 to get past FNP = 2/27 ~~ 7,4%
VS RM 1/3 to wound 1/6 to make through armor = 1/18 = 5,5% , that is substantial difference there.

You can't use cover vs CC attacks or often you just don't have it or you are being shoot by guys who ignore it (iron warriors , noise marines etc). Having your terminator 2+ armor vs 1 damage shoots regardless of having cover or not - cannot be underestimated.

I can probably dig for more and more examples that actually see table (hellblaster vs plague marine) - but where is point ? I think we got already got share of guns where Rubric is equal or stronger than PM.
And still dishing out more damage with standard setup for both without special weapons. Aka bolter vs bolter.

You completely miss my point - As above examples prove I wasn't actually pulling facts out of nowhere. But let's even agree you are right - and so what ? Marginally more durable than RM, but hitting like a wuss.

Ok to beat the dying horse more - would you take Plague Marines as your ELITE CHOICE for any army except for DG ? Because people do use and to great benefit Zerkers/Noise Marines and Rubricae.
This is when you realize your not so great Plague Marines really don't shine at all. As it is now - probably getting cultists for 4 ppm to fill my troop tax is just superior.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw to actually stick to the topic - how strong is Defiler on Table now ? Didn't have any chance to field it.

I expect it to be total MVP especially with stratagem to reroll everything in both shooting and CC.

Let me know since I want one .

mario88826 wrote:


Ok I though we can move on with this, but since you really want more examples then let's point out those.

Against meltagun/multi melta - in open Plague Marine gets completly stripped out of armor :
So vs PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to get through FNP in case of damage 1 - but that is hardly case since D2 it's 8/9 already and gets worse for PM with more damage rolled.Only in 1/6 case PM gets better chances to survive (when damage rolled on melta is 1).
vs RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to get through armor. So yeah 10/18 to kill RM

Although we already spoken about plasma - let's dig deeper - as of now we got access to juicy helblasters. And expect those to be pretty popular. Hell your Plague Marines do experience them right in Dark Imperium starting BOX!!!

without overheating in open (and trust me you will in open pretty damn often with plague marines - read thier new legion trait / setup)

VS PM 2/3 to wound and 2/3 to pass FNP - 4/9 to nail one. 44% to go down. In cover it's 37% - so less durable in cover than RM in open - quiet powerful argument is it ?
VS RM 2/3 to wound and 1/2 to get through armor - RM dying in 33,3% cases (All is dust states all save gets better !)

Against overheated plasma in open / cover

VS PM 2/3 to wound and 8/9 to get through FNP - 16/27 so 59,2% . In cover its 2/3*5/6*8/9= 80/162 - 49% STILL not much improvement.
VS RM 5/6 to wound and 2/3 to make it through invu - 10/18 - 55% to kill RM. In cover same (unless cover improves invu save which i don't think).

EDIT : Ok actually there is way more just like I said - so let's move to something you face VERY often on table - your good ol lasgun and thier cc weapons all S3 AP0 - just to make sure we don't raise case of cover.

VS PM 1/3 to wound 1/3 to make through armor and 2/3 to get past FNP = 2/27 ~~ 7,4%
VS RM 1/3 to wound 1/6 to make through armor = 1/18 = 5,5% , that is substantial difference there.

You can't use cover vs CC attacks or often you just don't have it or you are being shoot by guys who ignore it (iron warriors , noise marines etc). Having your terminator 2+ armor vs 1 damage shoots regardless of having cover or not - cannot be underestimated.

I can probably dig for more and more examples that actually see table (hellblaster vs plague marine) - but where is point ? I think we got already got share of guns where Rubric is equal or stronger than PM.
And still dishing out more damage with standard setup for both without special weapons. Aka bolter vs bolter.

You completely miss my point - As above examples prove I wasn't actually pulling facts out of nowhere. But let's even agree you are right - and so what ? Marginally more durable than RM, but hitting like a wuss.

Ok to beat the dying horse more - would you take Plague Marines as your ELITE CHOICE for any army except for DG ? Because people do use and to great benefit Zerkers/Noise Marines and Rubricae.
This is when you realize your not so great Plague Marines really don't shine at all. As it is now - probably getting cultists for 4 ppm to fill my troop tax is just superior.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw to actually stick to the topic - how strong is Defiler on Table now ? Didn't have any chance to field it.

I expect it to be total MVP especially with stratagem to reroll everything in both shooting and CC.

Let me know since I want one .

I've not said the Plague Marine is going to come out tougher in every single comparison. I'm pretty sure every unit in the game will show varying survivability against competitors under different circumstances, but you have claimed "Rubric Marines are MORE RESILIENT" to claim some overall advantage in the majority of scenarios when all I'm seeing is a small minority. When I saw Plague Marines are tougher, it's because against most weapons under most circumstances they take less damage, how are you defining being more resilient?

For the couple weapons you're listing, the Rubrics only win out under some of the circumstances regarding cover/weapon modes and not others and that seems to be the best Rubrics can claim in terms of resilience. Plague marines come out a good ways ahead against almost all of the weapons in each army's codex across almost every scenario. Take a scan down lists of the most used weapons like lascannons, missile launchers, bolters, flamers, plasma guns, sniper rifles, and hell even the inferno bolters themselves if you think they're great weapons and you'll get plague marines more likely to survive across the board. Toss in literally every mortal wound dealing source in the game and I don't see why you would think Rubric marines are so much more resilient that you should shout it out.

You said I shouldn't exclude cover but you seem to be saying we shouldn't include it for your calculations for a reason I must have missed. You do see the irony in claiming plague marines being 6% tougher in one scenario is "STILL not much improvement" but then saying for a difference of 1.9% the other way that "that is substantial difference there.", though right? Consistency is key.

Yes, barebones plaguemarines do put out less damage, but the unit also costs 18 less points if you aren't letting the plague marines take any upgrades. How would it make sense for them to be tougher, cheaper, and do more damage? I don't know if you've spent much time in the Thousand Sons tactica thread, but they aren't even running many Rubric Marines as troops. I like both and I play both, but I also understand which unit is more resilient, which does more damage, and which costs more.

Yes back on topic. I am kinda excited to see the rest of DG now. They mentioned got other Daemon engines, so maybe those will be hellbrute variants that will benefit from the legion rule on heavy weapons. I also heard rumors that DG Daemon Princes get DR.

Defilers are good on the table now with the reduced cost, bring them with twin heavy flamers. Those are amazing. But only thing is Defilers don't benefit from legion traits because they are not hellbrutes.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yes back on topic. I am kinda excited to see the rest of DG now. They mentioned got other Daemon engines, so maybe those will be hellbrute variants that will benefit from the legion rule on heavy weapons. I also heard rumors that DG Daemon Princes get DR.

Defilers are good on the table now with the reduced cost, bring them with twin heavy flamers. Those are amazing. But only thing is Defilers don't benefit from legion traits because they are not hellbrutes.

Well fair enough, given cost of Defiler it's completely okay they don't benefit from Legion traits. Twin heavy flamer ? what about scourge 3 additional hits at S12 AP-2 D3 sound like good deal and on top of that you save over 20 points ?

About other new Daemon Engines ... idk really. They may be just refering to various Bloat drone setups - as we seen there will be one for CC and another for some long range support I think. Of course would be cool, but sadly I think it's just Bloat Drone .
Unless ... this Plagueburst crawler is also Daemon Engine - which would be great since it would get FNP and 5+ invu !! That is my real hope.

And yeah those new spells seems to be actually useful , so it's not just miasma anymore. Legion trait gives some merit to Plague Marines now that they can rapid fire at 18" both Plasma and bolters - it essentially doubles thier damage output compared to normal marine between 12" and 18" ... so I suppose it's damage buff I was missing ! But then again only between 12" and 18". Still I will take something over nothing . More useful to me is ability to actually advance and shoot 2 blight launchers and still hit 3+ , this gives possible range of up to 35" and still hitting on 3+. That is neat actually.

@ lessthanjeff

Ok my dear heretic brother - peace . I will admit you have arguments going for you - i'm not blind. But you can see some going for me aswell I believe. And of course speaking about Rubrics or anything - still 4 ppm cultists beat gak out of any cult marines due to cost alone. And then you can spend your points anywhere from elites/fast atttack etc.
Given that DG did not lose access to cultists - then if poxwalkers wont drop in cost - it will be simple what DG players gonna field. Especially that those cultists can benefit from all nice Contagion spells aswell. Funny if you cast both new spells on them and use veteran of long war - then they can wound T7 targets on 3+ . Sure needs a lot of setup - but thats surprisingly dangerous.

And yes I forgot stupid Rubric tax for sorcerer - but he actually can cast something . Especially with Chaos familiar. And the bigger unit you take of Rubrics - the better. With Plague Marines it's opposite sadly due to system of special weapons.
Tell me LessthanJeff - what is setup you find to be best for PM, if you would want to field them anyway ? Champion with Plague Sword + plasma , 2 blight launchers and 2 mandatory bolter guys. With that setup they can actually dish out some dakka , but then again still just 5 wounds on table and cost 137 points ;x.

The problem with the defiler is that it is 4+ to hit for ranged as well as for melee. So that's why twin heavy flamers are amazing. Because those are auto hit. Auto hitting 2d6 hits without having to miss 50% of the time is amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Most people usually wouldn't want to go too close to a defiler. Those defiler claws do d6 damage.

mario88826 wrote:


And yeah those new spells seems to be actually useful , so it's not just miasma anymore. Legion trait gives some merit to Plague Marines now that they can rapid fire at 18" both Plasma and bolters - it essentially doubles thier damage output compared to normal marine between 12" and 18" ... so I suppose it's damage buff I was missing ! But then again only between 12" and 18". Still I will take something over nothing . More useful to me is ability to actually advance and shoot 2 blight launchers and still hit 3+ , this gives possible range of up to 35" and still hitting on 3+. That is neat actually.

@ lessthanjeff

Ok my dear heretic brother - peace . I will admit you have arguments going for you - i'm not blind. But you can see some going for me aswell I believe. And of course speaking about Rubrics or anything - still 4 ppm cultists beat gak out of any cult marines due to cost alone. And then you can spend your points anywhere from elites/fast atttack etc.
Given that DG did not lose access to cultists - then if poxwalkers wont drop in cost - it will be simple what DG players gonna field. Especially that those cultists can benefit from all nice Contagion spells aswell. Funny if you cast both new spells on them and use veteran of long war - then they can wound T7 targets on 3+ . Sure needs a lot of setup - but thats surprisingly dangerous.

And yes I forgot stupid Rubric tax for sorcerer - but he actually can cast something . Especially with Chaos familiar. And the bigger unit you take of Rubrics - the better. With Plague Marines it's opposite sadly due to system of special weapons.
Tell me LessthanJeff - what is setup you find to be best for PM, if you would want to field them anyway ? Champion with Plague Sword + plasma , 2 blight launchers and 2 mandatory bolter guys. With that setup they can actually dish out some dakka , but then again still just 5 wounds on table and cost 137 points ;x.

The setup you mention is only 20 points more than your beloved rubrics and in my opinion better in every way .
I won't use Cultists or at least not more than one squad for objective camping. They don't fit my idea of DG and I don't want to paint or buy hundreds of similar models. And I like my PMs, they won't die from the first enemy looking at them and they'll put out some decent firepower - can't say that about Cultists. Poxwalkers are okay, as long as they're supported by Typhus, if Typhus gets higher points costs I agree pox walkers could become cheaper. Personally I hope for a suicide bomber stratagem for poxwalkers or cultists, but I won't hold my breath .

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The problem with the defiler is that it is 4+ to hit for ranged as well as for melee. So that's why twin heavy flamers are amazing. Because those are auto hit. Auto hitting 2d6 hits without having to miss 50% of the time is amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Most people usually wouldn't want to go too close to a defiler. Those defiler claws do d6 damage.

I'm really liking Defilers, they have fantastic durability and melee output for their cost (at the price of crappy offensive stats). Any shooting they do I think should be treated as a bonus. Their main role is to waddle up the field sucking up fire, and then hopefully ripping apart things in combat. The scourge seems like a better bet, because once theyre in combat, 4 WS4 attacks arent enough to end an engagement quickly. With the flamers, youll fire them once, get stuck in, and then stay there and never use them again.
I do however, like putting combiflamers on them for a little extra spice at close range.
For the other shooty options, twin h-bolter wins out. Reaper autocannons are woefully underclassed with their 1 damage (which is regular autocannon's primary advantage over h-bolters in the first place).
A little bit of support also goes a long way. Demonforge is good, even for shooting (just hope you get lucky on that battlecannon roll!). Warpsmiths are awesome to suck up even more damage, and apostles make them annihilate anything they punch.

Im going to pick up a box of rubrics to convert in to shooty marines. Im undecided if I should run them as rubrics, or noise marines... Thoughts?

The wierd thing is that the most efficient build for spamming plasma guns with DG is likely the minum 5 man plague marine squad with 3 plasma guns and 2 bolters. This squad is bad at CC though. But the good thing about it is that it has 2 guys with bolters who can serve as abalative wounds. So, if its a shooting war, such a squad can stand at mid range at keep on pumping out 6 plama shots for quite a long time. Don't really need to worry much about morale too since it is just a 5 man squad.

If the daemon prince has DR and gives a reroll 1 aura. I can see it becoming the CC countercharge for a bunch of 5 man plasma plague marine squads clustered around it. Not sure if Rhino is really necessary in such a case. Once they get to that sweet spot 18 inches, they can stay there and keep shooting indefinitely. Such a squad doesn't really want to get into CC anyway.


And to the above poster, yeah Defilers are good now. Its just kinda sad they don't benefit from legion traits. :(

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The wierd thing is that the most efficient build for spamming plasma guns with DG is likely the minum 5 man plague marine squad with 3 plasma guns and 2 bolters. This squad is bad at CC though. But the good thing about it is that it has 2 guys with bolters who can serve as abalative wounds. So, if its a shooting war, such a squad can stand at mid range at keep on pumping out 6 plama shots for quite a long time. Don't really need to worry much about morale too since it is just a 5 man squad.

If the daemon prince has DR and gives a reroll 1 aura. I can see it becoming the CC countercharge for a bunch of 5 man plasma plague marine squads clustered around it. Not sure if Rhino is really necessary in such a case. Once they get to that sweet spot 18 inches, they can stay there and keep shooting indefinitely. Such a squad doesn't really want to get into CC anyway.


And to the above poster, yeah Defilers are good now. Its just kinda sad they don't benefit from legion traits. :(

Yeah I was thinking same - until i realised that Blight Launcher is just so much better weapon. Actually if there is point in shooty PM - it's blight launchers.
Now with new legion tactic you can stand, move , advance and still shoot up to 24" and still hit on 3+ without need for any character supporting it with aura. On top of that they benefit from new warlord trait so they can reroll all wounds not just 1's !!
Blight launcher is just too good, honestly even if you really want to shoot vehicles with it and you don't have warlord to reroll all wounds - just go for veterans of long war - they will wound even land raiders on 4+ and rerolling 1's - pretty decent.
It's almost always better and hey ... regardless you won't kill yourself when shooting it !
Of course you will still end up with 1 plasma gun on champion - and honestly since you can now rapid fire from 18" - it's rapid firing before helblaster can . Which is neat.

Now CC PM's ... sound like great idea with all those new spells to make them super deadly with plague weapons - but there are still massive problems :
1. Low movement - 5 instead of 6 other marines have. Though mitigated by noxious blightbringer - sadly makes him mandatory if you footslog.
2. High point cost - even with really amazing weapons like flail of corruption - we are looking 29 ppm. And that dude is still 1 wound guy.

When it's all adding up - either need for blightbringer or rhino even small 5 man squad can suddenly explode in points.

128 points for champion with just plague sword (no fist) , 2 flails , 2x bubotic axe + rhino with just combi bolter = 202 points . And I went really easy here - no icons, no havoc for rhino or better combi , no fist on champion or more expensive things like Cleaver/Mace.

Sounds very expensive for just 5 bodies , of course in this case it's better to bring more in rhino or use it to transport other support characters like plaguecaster(110 pts ?). But then again your rhino with cargo will be ~~350 points lol. Given that Magnus is at 415 points and Mortarion will be similar - I can hardly justify such cost.



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@ Sgt.Cortez

Same can be said about Rubrics - they can take special weapons. But let's leave this comparison already .

Poxwalkers on the other hand are questionable at best - sure no moral tests is something, but I REALLY DON'T WANT to invest 161 points for typhus and 80 more for noxious blightbringer to actually get them to combat. Not to mention I want Typhus to actually support my Terminators and/or Deathshroud with his psychic abilites.

What is necessary for them is to get plague weapons - after all they are damn victims of plague - GW please WTF. And 5 points sound alright.

6 is too much because basically you will be always compared to 6 points troop boys - who swing on 3+ instead of 5+ , get 3 attacks instead of 2 (+ 1 sluga shoot) , have always S4 / T4. Move faster, can advance and charge - and most importantly can reroll charge.
And they don't have morale aswell as long as there is plenty of them or there is another mob near them - so they can use LD of it.

Honestly when I compare them to boys - even 5 points sounds like strech ... but then again boys are decent.

Pox for me is 4 ppm unless they get plague weapon rule - then yeah 5 ppm works .

mario88826 wrote:

@ Sgt.Cortez
Poxwalkers on the other hand are questionable at best - sure no moral tests is something, but I REALLY DON'T WANT to invest 161 points for typhus and 80 more for noxious blightbringer to actually get them to combat. Not to mention I want Typhus to actually support my Terminators and/or Deathshroud with his psychic abilites.

What is necessary for them is to get plague weapons - after all they are damn victims of plague - GW please WTF. And 5 points sound alright.

6 is too much because basically you will be always compared to 6 points troop boys - who swing on 3+ instead of 5+ , get 3 attacks instead of 2 (+ 1 sluga shoot) , have always S4 / T4. Move faster, can advance and charge - and most importantly can reroll charge.
And they don't have morale aswell as long as there is plenty of them or there is another mob near them - so they can use LD of it.

Honestly when I compare them to boys - even 5 points sounds like strech ... but then again boys are decent.

Pox for me is 4 ppm unless they get plague weapon rule - then yeah 5 ppm works .

Well, simply take a sorcerer in Termi armour to go with your termis . Typhus' aura helps poxwalkers, so for me it'd be a waste to not use him alongside them. I see whrere you're coming from with your comparison to boyz and as I don't have Orks in my gaming group I didn't know what they can do. But reading the forum it seems boyz are actually the only good thing in Ork codex, so maybe they are too good for their points? Poywalkers are much more resilient than boyz and can recover some troops. I wouldn't be opposed to 5points. For 4 points I'd consider them too cheap, or Cultists would have to cost 3points like conscripts then . It would also help poxwalkers to increase their squad size.

I think when the DG terminators come out, they will be the goto for melee, because they can deep strike, so they will fit better with Mortarion, who can move 12 inches. For melee you want something you can get into melee combat as soon as possible. Mortarion and deep striking terminators fit the bill. Slow walking pox walkers do not. Pox walkers are for bubble wrap. Enemy comes into melee with them when they are looking to break your bubble wrap to get to your guys behind. If opponent's list is actually beatable by a mass of slow moving pox walkers, then it can probably be beat by just about anything you throw together.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think when the DG terminators come out, they will be the goto for melee, because they can deep strike, so they will fit better with Mortarion, who can move 12 inches. For melee you want something you can get into melee combat as soon as possible. Mortarion and deep striking terminators fit the bill. Slow walking pox walkers do not. Pox walkers are for bubble wrap. Enemy comes into melee with them when they are looking to break your bubble wrap to get to your guys behind. If opponent's list is actually beatable by a mass of slow moving pox walkers, then it can probably be beat by just about anything you throw together.

Exactly entire footsloging idea doesn't work with Mortarion - he is just too fast for rest to keep up. So probably deep striking/embarked on land raider terminators combined with various weapon setup bloat drones - as HQ deep striking typhus and Demon Prince - those all can keep up.
And they better should keep up - or Mortarion will get wrecked alone. Poxwalkers with Movement 4 ... really will be too late to aid Morty.

Plague Marines can work in this setup - when embarked on Rhino , I wouldnt take them into Land Raider - it's better pack DeathShroud there or standard DG termies.

To some extent I can see Predators/New Tank/Defiler/Helbrute working along with Morty - because either they are reasonably fast at 8" and can shoot at same time at long range or just act like supporting artillery and holding objectives back at your base area - while still being able to throw in some precious lascannon shoots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

mario88826 wrote:

@ Sgt.Cortez
Poxwalkers on the other hand are questionable at best - sure no moral tests is something, but I REALLY DON'T WANT to invest 161 points for typhus and 80 more for noxious blightbringer to actually get them to combat. Not to mention I want Typhus to actually support my Terminators and/or Deathshroud with his psychic abilites.

What is necessary for them is to get plague weapons - after all they are damn victims of plague - GW please WTF. And 5 points sound alright.

6 is too much because basically you will be always compared to 6 points troop boys - who swing on 3+ instead of 5+ , get 3 attacks instead of 2 (+ 1 sluga shoot) , have always S4 / T4. Move faster, can advance and charge - and most importantly can reroll charge.
And they don't have morale aswell as long as there is plenty of them or there is another mob near them - so they can use LD of it.

Honestly when I compare them to boys - even 5 points sounds like strech ... but then again boys are decent.

Pox for me is 4 ppm unless they get plague weapon rule - then yeah 5 ppm works .

Well, simply take a sorcerer in Termi armour to go with your termis . Typhus' aura helps poxwalkers, so for me it'd be a waste to not use him alongside them. I see whrere you're coming from with your comparison to boyz and as I don't have Orks in my gaming group I didn't know what they can do. But reading the forum it seems boyz are actually the only good thing in Ork codex, so maybe they are too good for their points? Poywalkers are much more resilient than boyz and can recover some troops. I wouldn't be opposed to 5points. For 4 points I'd consider them too cheap, or Cultists would have to cost 3points like conscripts then . It would also help poxwalkers to increase their squad size.

I don't agree on poxwalkers being simple upgrade over cultists - cultists have base WS4+ even when number is under 10. On top of that they can dish out some ranged dakka and got movement of 6. Yep that is correct they have 50% higher movement.
Honestly depending on situation they are even better. Sure no Disgustingly Resilient, but at least they have any armor and in cover they can get pathetic 5+ - still better than pox.
And everyone got access to them not just DG - so them being more viable option than Pox alone is already bad. And that is the case. I prefer to pay 4 ppm for 6 movement ranged unit rather than 6 ppm for 4 movement zombies who are not even tough at all.
In fact I can easily see scenario where Cultists smash zombies - no Dark Apostole for them , no typhu9s for zombies etc. Raw autogun fire will just take down zombies. And even CC oriented cultists thanks to higher movement will charge first and probably kill tons of zombies T3/no armor/FNP.
And that is with equal numbers - what if there is 50% more cultists ? as they are 50% less expensive.(or 33% depends from which side you are looking).

So far I've still been running my plague marines with plasma guns. When you have nearby lords or princes they average more damage than melta guns and having the choice of weapon modes in games lets you play more safely unless you need the overcharge. I am interested in testing the new nurgle weapons though.

I've found that noise marines are actually the output kings and most of my lists that had a mix of rubrics and noise marines have slowly replaced rubrics with sonic weaponry. Their output it outstanding when you stack prescience, veterans of the long war, and endless cacophony. The fact that they do more killing even when they die just made them too appealing in the comparison for me. The rubrics always looked decent on paper, but they rarely got their points back and I found that smite was often too risky to justify it's use because it basically wipes the unit on a perils.

mario88826 wrote:

I don't agree on poxwalkers being simple upgrade over cultists - cultists have base WS4+ even when number is under 10. On top of that they can dish out some ranged dakka and got movement of 6. Yep that is correct they have 50% higher movement.
Honestly depending on situation they are even better. Sure no Disgustingly Resilient, but at least they have any armor and in cover they can get pathetic 5+ - still better than pox. No it's not, it's actually much worse as you always get DR, it can't be denied by AP unlike the cover/armour safe
And everyone got access to them not just DG - so them being more viable option than Pox alone is already bad. And that is the case. I prefer to pay 4 ppm for 6 movement ranged unit rather than 6 ppm for 4 movement zombies who are not even tough at all.
In fact I can easily see scenario where Cultists smash zombies - no Dark Apostole for them , no typhu9s for zombies etc. Raw autogun fire will just take down zombies. And even CC oriented cultists thanks to higher movement will charge first and probably kill tons of zombies T3/no armor/FNP.
And that is with equal numbers - what if there is 50% more cultists ? as they are 50% less expensive.(or 33% depends from which side you are looking).

We are clearly rating DR very differently. While my opponents constantly freak out about it you seem to have little success. Also I admit I'm only seeing poxwalkers with support, never alone. Since I agree that they're rather weak withouth support I'm not opposed to 5ppm. Cultists on the other hand... I can't see more use in them than minimal squads to fill slots and camp on an objective.

You can take 20 Cultists, lose 19 of them, and then pay 2CP to recycle the lot & drop them near your opponent's artillery after their screening units thought your deepstrikers had all committed already. That's pretty good. The mere presence of survivors of a largeish Cultist unit forces your opponent to keep their blocking units in place even after you've done your teleports, and makes them a target that really has to be wiped out.

Poxwalkers not taking Morale casualties opens up possibilities for hordes that don't need CP for recycling or Insane Bravery. Even Word Bearers Cultists near a Dark Apostle are not difficult to kill in sufficient numbers to ensure double casualties. And the fact that they have DG and can infect others adds a psychological edge.

They're different.

 lindsay40k wrote:
You can take 20 Cultists, lose 19 of them, and then pay 2CP to recycle the lot & drop them near your opponent's artillery after their screening units thought your deepstrikers had all committed already. That's pretty good. The mere presence of survivors of a largeish Cultist unit forces your opponent to keep their blocking units in place even after you've done your teleports, and makes them a target that really has to be wiped out.

Poxwalkers not taking Morale casualties opens up possibilities for hordes that don't need CP for recycling or Insane Bravery. Even Word Bearers Cultists near a Dark Apostle are not difficult to kill in sufficient numbers to ensure double casualties. And the fact that they have DG and can infect others adds a psychological edge.

They're different.

Ok I give up - fair enough guys you can defend Plague Marines and Poxwalkers all day long . I think both suck big time. We all can have our own oppinion. When I mean suck - bad points value. As every unit given enough discount/increase start to be good/bad.

Let's proceed with those tactics :

How does Forgefiend work for you guys ? Even though i cannot field it as DG, I could take them as friendly nurgle renegade detachment. I really love how it looks <3.

Forgefiend... I've got four kits, going to do each of the four variants as I also love their aesthetics, but Lasherfiend is the only one I'm interested in getting done soon and fielding. I've already got several Squads of Havocs and neither dakkafiend feels like it'll be more useful than them :/

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Here's a tactica/list-building question...

Assuming all other things equal, in a well rounded list, which would you prefer to take...

1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)

2. Replacing the above with two units of Obliterators (one Slaanesh for possible double-fire, one Tzeentch to benefit from a nearby Changeling)

Either permutation would result in my list ending up legal, and netting 8CP, but I am really conflicted as to which option to take for an upcoming GT.

dont forget havoc launchers on contemptors for that extra dakka

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Here's a tactica/list-building question...

Assuming all other things equal, in a well rounded list, which would you prefer to take...

1. A Contemptor Dread with 2x Kheres, and a unit of 10 Alpha Legion Berserkers (lets say for argument, the list already has another unit of 10 Berserkers)

2. Replacing the above with two units of Obliterators (one Slaanesh for possible double-fire, one Tzeentch to benefit from a nearby Changeling)

Either permutation would result in my list ending up legal, and netting 8CP, but I am really conflicted as to which option to take for an upcoming GT.

Pretty sure I'd go with the Oblits, especially if you haven't already got a Slaanesh gunner unit that obviously wants to hog EC, and are taking Changeling anyway, and already have infiltration sorted. Cover is not dead for compact infantry gunner units, especially ones with good saves - Changebliterators teleporting into a Ruin or forest will be tough to shift, and ECblits will deliver some potent firepower where it's needed.


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I'm starting to reconsider how I approach building my list.

I like to field Daemons with my Word Bearers, they're useful and fluffy. Dropping Nurglings on objectives and using Heralds to buff & heal is going well. Some of the fast stuff is proving handy as well.

However, in games above 120power, I can get an extra CP from putting everything into a Brigade.

This does reduce HQ slots, but it also reduces HQ tax - sometimes I get by just fine with just five.

Now. My Legion Trait is widely regarded to be the weakest. So, if I'm building an army with so many Heretic Astartes and so many Daemons, the question of the use of Profane Zeal comes down to:

Which is better, re-rolling Morale checks with 10-11CP, or not rerolling Morale with 12CP?

Put another way - if Traits required you to use a cheap Stratagem at the start of the game to activate them, would you bother to use it? I can't say I'm that tempted with mine. Alpha Legion, on the other hand...

I'm looking forwards to my friends getting over 150power of stuff, so we can start playing games big enough to accommodate a Brigade and another detachment or two so I can have my Trait and daemons without feeling short-changed...

"Access to all Nurgle Deamons except for heralds of Nurgle" damn here goes my hidden tactic :(.

Ok I will share my GOD level tactic I was preparing...

So new spell giving +1 to wound and mortal wounds on 7's can be casted actually on anything that is DG not just infantry.

Now what is totally broken and can be done is take Herald of Nurgle even if i have to take Demon Detachment.

Herald not only gives our precious bloat drones +1S to make sure our flames auto hit with S7 and/ or other weapons they will use but can also cast ... Virulent blessing !!!! Both work only on Demons of Nurgle. Bloat drone is valid target !

Now effect is borderline broken.

Given that new CC oriented bloat drone probably will have way more attacks like ~~6-9 depending on profile.

It will jump to base strenght of 7 before weapon modifier +2 to wound rolls so basically on dice results of 5 and 6 it deals mortal wounds and on dice results of 5 and 6 it ALSO DEALS double damage. Now to make this even more ridiculous Lets throw in Demon Engine stratagem to make sure it also hits, as wounding won't be a problem.

So to sum this up this thing will hit very well, will wound probably everything o 2+ with rerolling 1's and just double damage of 5's and 6's and deal mortal wounds on same rolls!!

I dig it ).

Edit : This is way more potent than version of Plague Marines with plague weapons. Because with Vetaran of Long War - they will only make mortal wounds on 5+ and 6+ without doubling damage on those rolls.
I don't have idea what will be profile for this Combine type weapons , but I find it hard to believe it will be 3 attacks. More like 3 hits for attack or D3 at least.

I mean you can still take heralds.. whats the problem

There are 10 other characters in the DG list.. I feel like getting allt eh characters I want (Fabius too!) I won't have an army left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boosting strength on Bloatdrones does seem decent. Possessed too.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I mean you can still take heralds.. whats the problem

There are 10 other characters in the DG list.. I feel like getting allt eh characters I want (Fabius too!) I won't have an army left.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boosting strength on Bloatdrones does seem decent. Possessed too.

Yes basically any target that fight in Close combat like mentioned by you possessed that can benefit from both herald AND this new spell.
possessed can also like you mentioned jump to S6 and +2 to wound rolls and mortals on 5's and 6's and doubling damage on same rolls. I can see scenarios where your infantry wound Land Raiders and 3+s while also dealing tons of mortal wounds and double damage hits. Flipping LR in 1 turn .

So whatever is DG demon can really be pimped well. Though I really see Drones to be huge benefactors of Herald usage.

Even just simple +1S gives drone fair chance to flame even vehicles to death , not just infantry. Making from it mobile,versatile, tough and deadly unit. Bloat drone is huge MVP as always .

Mario, how are Possessed getting Mortal Wounds on a 5+, I thought that only applied to Plague Weapons?

Edit: oh, I see, it's from the Herald's spell


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, my Word Bearers - Daemons lists just got a new trick: use VOTLW in place of Putrefaction, no DG +1S, BUT THAT IS FINE, because when I'm trying to tip a tank I want to be getting my re-rolls from Exalted Champion to maximise my 5+. Shame there's no MW but still a nice combo.

So. Twenty Possessed, Nurgle Sorcerer to Warptime and Miasma them, Herald and ExCh and DA to provide other buffs. That's a Supreme Command deathstar right there...

...this wants covering fire from Nurgle Oblits, who can be feeding Epidemius. Shame there's no Herald on Plague Drone who could keep up with Warp Talons.

Could potentially trade Sorcerer and DA for DP. But you probably still want Warptime and Miasma... perhaps trade DA for DP, and put Sorcerer on Steed & give him Warptime & Death Hex?

But yeah, DG Possessed are looking lit. Especially if they get VOTLW to inflict double damage and MW on a 4+ to wound

Some new info on the new deathguard units!

Plague Surgeon has an aura that gives infantry units within 3 inches a reroll on a 1 for their DR save. And they are elite choice and quite cheap too.

And for those who were worried Mortarion might be singled out and gunned down by heavy weapons. Deathshroud Terminators have 4++ save, DR, 2 wounds, and they can take wounds for any character near to them. So, yeah, all those lascannon shots directed at Mortarion can be rediracted at the Deathshroud terminators first!

Blightlord Terminators are T5, DR, 2W terminators that can take the regular combi weapons stuff as well as the plague marine weapons like blight launchers and such and they are only a few points more expensive than regular CSM termninators.

The bloat drone with fleshmower sounds so fun to use! It adds 6 attacks to the Bloat drones attacks ... 6 !!! And its str user+2, so that's str 8 attacks on an uninjured bloat drone. This fleshmower will literally mow down stuff. lol Bloat drone has 3 attacks base, so at full health, it will do 9 Str 8 attacks. lol

The blight Hauler is a really interesting unit too. fast attack choice, moves 10 inches. 8 wounds, does not degrade, has 5++ as well as DR, packs 3 ranged weapons and 1 melee. And it gives a special aura that is 7 inches radius. Infantry units wholly within its aura get cover save! So, your 5 man plague marine unit close to the Blight Hauler is now a 2+ armor save as it trudges up the board. Nice! Its really cheap too. Under 100 points base. @@

The Plague burst crawler is really cheap too (its only slightly over 100 points base!) and quite hitty! Firstly, its really resilient, becuase it has T8, 3+ save and DR and 12 wounds. And it has a fair amount of heavy weaponery. You can swop the side sponstones into basically the equivalent of 36 inch range lascannons. And the Plague burst mortar is the heavy duty weapon. It does d6 hits, Str 8, AP -2. d3 damage at range 12 to 48 inches and you don't need line of sight to fire it! lol. With this, a gun line deathguard army is a distinct possibility.