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Vaguely on topic with the current Noise Marine talk... does anyone have any ideas for a Noise Marine conversion that is more... mechanicum-ey?

I have a plan for an obliterator squad, and have the models in mind for it, but I haven't been able to find an appropriate "robotic noise marine" type of model.

Has anyone tried to use a spartan yet ?

 Rydria wrote:
Has anyone tried to use a spartan yet ?

I watched a batrep where it got blown off the board by a shadowsword.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Has anyone tried to use a spartan yet ?

I watched a batrep where it got blown off the board by a shadowsword.

This fills me with confidence in its abilities.

 Rydria wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Has anyone tried to use a spartan yet ?

I watched a batrep where it got blown off the board by a shadowsword.

This fills me with confidence in its abilities.

Shadsword can destroy anything though, so don't hold that against the Spartan. It is basically a LR on steriods, with all the pros and cons of its smaller version. Its expensive, but very tough and can fit so much stuff.

Anyone put their Kytan or Brass Scorpion to work in 8th yet? Any thoughts?

Also, I desperately want to drop Berzerkers in pods (2 Dreadclaws, 1 Kharybdis), but man, it seems like MSU is the only way to come close to "guaranteeing" 1st turn charges, but having that many units off the table means I need a ton of cultists on the board to balance the unit numbers. I'm struggling so hard with sticking to fluff and not bringing sorcs in the list. Warptime makes all the difference.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Mechanicum-Myrmidon-Secutors

Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Anyone put their Kytan or Brass Scorpion to work in 8th yet? Any thoughts?

Also, I desperately want to drop Berzerkers in pods (2 Dreadclaws, 1 Kharybdis), but man, it seems like MSU is the only way to come close to "guaranteeing" 1st turn charges, but having that many units off the table means I need a ton of cultists on the board to balance the unit numbers. I'm struggling so hard with sticking to fluff and not bringing sorcs in the list. Warptime makes all the difference.

World Eaters, right? How about adding a Word Bearers Supreme Command detachment? Our two Legions have close associations, after all.

Niiru wrote:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Mechanicum-Myrmidon-Secutors

Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol

Big axe, lumbering posture, two guns - Terminators, surely? Mix and match the guns and you've got a combi-squad with power axes.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Niiru wrote:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Mechanicum-Myrmidon-Secutors

Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol

Big axe, lumbering posture, two guns - Terminators, surely? Mix and match the guns and you've got a combi-squad with power axes.

I didn't think about terminators because I thought current version terminators were better as shooty and not choppy... I didnt think about using those shoulder-mounted guns as combi weapons though! Interesting...

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Also, I desperately want to drop Berzerkers in pods (2 Dreadclaws, 1 Kharybdis), but man, it seems like MSU is the only way to come close to "guaranteeing" 1st turn charges, but having that many units off the table means I need a ton of cultists on the board to balance the unit numbers. I'm struggling so hard with sticking to fluff and not bringing sorcs in the list. Warptime makes all the difference.

Best I can tell you is to bring the Khorne Icon of Wrath. Re-roll failed charges for 10 points could help you out a lot. And it doesn't even have to be what you use. Say you roll 8 inches, but its a 6 and a 2. You can burn a command point to reroll the 2 instead of the Icon to reroll the charge.

May also want to strike a middle ground on unit size: you don't have a benefit for bringing 20 models in a unit of zerkers, so don't worry about bringing squads of 10. More chargeable targets that way anyway.

@lindsay40k: Yep, Word Bearers FTW. As much as I love World Eaters because they're totally all about Khorne, I think I like Word Bearers better overall. Too bad their legion rules are sucky (for my purposes). The sorcerer I use right now is painted in WB colors, as is my Dark Apostle.

@Warpyt0013: For sure every unit will have an Icon of Wrath. Such a great piece of gear. Even still, 9" charges are easily failed twice. That's why I was thinking MSU is the best way of doing it.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
I'm not following what your getting at here. Yes, the Fire Frenzy stratagem doesn't apply to the units the FW granted the Helbrute keyword too by FAQ. But your wrong on the Sonic Dreadnought which by FAQ is a Helbrute with two additional weapons options. It uses the same Datasheet so it obviously has on the same keywords as the Helbrute excluding the faction Keywords EMPEROR'S CHILDREN and SLAANESH. So, it can use the Fire Frenzy stratagem just fine.

It's a point of contention. Currently the rules aren't explicit as to what the name of the unit is supposed to be. They reference it, define it as, an Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought. Using the Helbrute datasheet doesn't necessarily make it a Helbrute but since we no clear instruction to change the name to Emperor's Children Sonic Dreadnought, I would still allow the interpretation. From an intent standpoint, I think the stratagem was made with a clear idea of what weapons would be firing (ones from the codex the stratagem is pulled from) and the FW/Sonic versions wouldn't apply. If Forgeworld is going to be releasing their own books for these models, they might want to come out with some stratagems too.

Blastmasters and Dooms Sirens are weapons option in Codex: Chaos Space marines. The FW FAQ tells us to use the Helbrute data sheet, only adding weapons options and faction keywords. Factions which can be freely taken on a Helbrute anyway. It would be more accurate to call a "Sonic Dreadnought" is in fact a "Sonic Helbrute". Honestly, this is the first time I've seen this argument. Any, guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:
Vaguely on topic with the current Noise Marine talk... does anyone have any ideas for a Noise Marine conversion that is more... mechanicum-ey?

I have a plan for an obliterator squad, and have the models in mind for it, but I haven't been able to find an appropriate "robotic noise marine" type of model.

I have Sonic Terminators that I usually proxy as my Obliterators. But I've proxy-ed my Subjugator and Questor titans from Warmaster. There easy to find on eBay at a reasonable price even now.

Excuse me, while I math this 9" charge out right quick for @Wolf_in_Human_Shape. "Easy to fail" hurts my desire for accuracy.

1+1
1+2, 2+1
1+3, 2+2, 3+1
1+4, 2+3, 3+2, 4+1
1+5, 2+4, 3+3, 4+2, 5+1
1+6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2, 6+1
2+6, 3+5, 4+4, 5+3, 6+2
3+6, 4+5, 5+4, 6+3
4+6, 5+5, 6+4
5+6, 6+5
6+6

You pass the charge roughly 27.778% of the time(10 passes/36 possible results). Icon of wrath allows you to re-roll the remaining 72.22% bringing the failed percentage(72.22% of 72.22) to 52.157%. That is the Icon of wrath alone. 4 of those 26 failed results contain a 6, which you can re-roll the second die using a CP with a 66.67% pass rate. 4/36=11.11% two thirds of that is 7.408%. 6 of the 26 failed results contain a 5 which can be re-rolled for a CP with a 50% pass rate, 6/36=16.667% half of that is 8.333%. the results containing 4s can be re-rolled for a 33.333% pass rate which is higher than the original charge chance, but that is a little further than I would be willing to go if I had two units charging.

In conclusion: the original charge has a 43.519% chance of success for a charge using a single command point., and a 47.843% chance if you use the Icon. Unfortunately, no dice can be re-rolled more than once, so you cannot combine the two results for a higher than 50% chance of success. This means that in order to "guarantee" a 9" charge, without warptime, or the AL stratagem, you need 3 units charging. 10 zerkers with Chainswords, 3 ea plasma pistols, and an Icon comes to 191 points, times 3, with a cheap Lord(Axe, jump pack and plasma pistol for 101) comes to 674 points. Yup. that's a lot of points with those drop pods on top. MSU(5 man squads) comes to 402, but now you are spending far more points on your "missile"(drop pods) than on your "warhead"(zerkers).

Didn't want to quote cos of the lot of text, but doesn't that just mean it's a lot more cost effective to just buy one squad of berserkers, and then spend the saved points on a sorcerer for warptime? Though I dunno what the chances of failing warptime would be

 lindsay40k wrote:

Niiru wrote:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Mechanicum-Myrmidon-Secutors

Anyone think of a decent chaos unit that I could use these as conversions for? They already look pretty suitable for chaos, but I can't think of anything we have that would fit... My first thought was mutilators, but unfortunately they seem to be terrible at the moment lol

Big axe, lumbering posture, two guns - Terminators, surely? Mix and match the guns and you've got a combi-squad with power axes.

This is what I was gonna say! I think they would make great count as terminators. Personally, I'd make them dedicated to khorne to justify those axes (and cause I dedicated 95% of everything I make to khorne)!

 Warpy0013 wrote:
Excuse me, while I math this 9" charge out right quick for @Wolf_in_Human_Shape. "Easy to fail" hurts my desire for accuracy.

1+1
1+2, 2+1
1+3, 2+2, 3+1
1+4, 2+3, 3+2, 4+1
1+5, 2+4, 3+3, 4+2, 5+1
1+6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3, 5+2, 6+1
2+6, 3+5, 4+4, 5+3, 6+2
3+6, 4+5, 5+4, 6+3
4+6, 5+5, 6+4
5+6, 6+5
6+6

You pass the charge roughly 27.778% of the time(10 passes/36 possible results). Icon of wrath allows you to re-roll the remaining 72.22% bringing the failed percentage(72.22% of 72.22) to 52.157%. That is the Icon of wrath alone. 4 of those 26 failed results contain a 6, which you can re-roll the second die using a CP with a 66.67% pass rate. 4/36=11.11% two thirds of that is 7.408%. 6 of the 26 failed results contain a 5 which can be re-rolled for a CP with a 50% pass rate, 6/36=16.667% half of that is 8.333%. the results containing 4s can be re-rolled for a 33.333% pass rate which is higher than the original charge chance, but that is a little further than I would be willing to go if I had two units charging.

In conclusion: the original charge has a 43.519% chance of success for a charge using a single command point., and a 47.843% chance if you use the Icon. Unfortunately, no dice can be re-rolled more than once, so you cannot combine the two results for a higher than 50% chance of success. This means that in order to "guarantee" a 9" charge, without warptime, or the AL stratagem, you need 3 units charging. 10 zerkers with Chainswords, 3 ea plasma pistols, and an Icon comes to 191 points, times 3, with a cheap Lord(Axe, jump pack and plasma pistol for 101) comes to 674 points. Yup. that's a lot of points with those drop pods on top. MSU(5 man squads) comes to 402, but now you are spending far more points on your "missile"(drop pods) than on your "warhead"(zerkers).

Thanks for the statistical analysis, it was interesting to see all that play out.

As for the final point regarding the missile costing more than the warhead, MSU would allow more than 1 (2 max per Dreadclaw, 4 max per Kharybdis) unit per transport. I have yet to try this method using any transport, but my rationale was to maximize the number of units making charges to go for that aforementioned "guarantee" while minimizing the amount of points spent on the pods themselves. Were I to go for 1 unit per transport, I'd definitely max it out though. I guess the pods should be factored in for charges too, for the sheer number of units attempting charges to at least tie stuff up, if not shut down overwatch for successful berzerker charges. That also factors into the problem, though, in that I need to have so many units on the table to balance the large number of units deep striking.

As for it being easy to fail, looking at the ~43.5% and ~47.8% chances of success, maybe easy isn't the most accurate word. However, it isn't likely that each unit will successfully charge, either. All 3 could fail - or succeed, in fairness - but having the outcome of the battle hinge on those odds may not be the best idea. Doesn't mean I won't try it repeatedly, however. Pulling it off will just be that much sweeter and more satisfying.

Regardless, both pods are pretty damn expensive. This makes me wonder whether it's worth even trying to bring 3 pods for turn 1 charges compared to the additional units I could bring were I to just chuck the berzerkers in rhinos. 128*2 = 256 points saved by swapping the Dreadclaws out, and 228 for the Kharybdis. That's 484 points I could be spending on things like terminators to nuke stuff or maulerfiends/blood slaughterers/heldrakes/daemon prince to run up the board with my berzerkers so they aren't the only threat. I don't have my iPad with me to check my FW chaos index, but based on power level I'd even be able to run a Kytan for the cost of the Kharybdis and 1 Dreadclaw, and almost be able to run the 3 rhinos for the cost of the second dreadclaw. I guess, having all the minis, I can try out every permutation of the list eventually. This tangent notwithstanding, the point was trying to make max pods work somehow.

What units complement noise marines? Abaddon for the rerolls? Cultists so you can have more noise marines? Rhinos? Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.

What are peoples thoughts on a non thousand sons mono tzeench list. Can it be effective? I am thinking of mixing in some tzeench demons (maknly for flamers and exalted flamers) . units on the csm side which i am definately wanting to include are
Lord or sorceror (ideally either in terminator armour or on disc)
A squad of terminators
Some possessed
A couple of 9 man squads of marines
A predator + some obliterators.
Im toying around with running a patrol detachment + vanguard

I've played a couple games now with the new codex.

I've had a harder time getting use out of Cultists than I thought I would. They do do fantastic damage when buffed, but morale is a huge issue if you're trying to take advantage of Tide of Traitors. The only way to fix this is Abaddon, who you don't really want to have on the board turn 1. An Iron Warriors warlord would also work, but you probably really want them to be Alpha Legion. This ends up being a huge gamble, where you basically auto-win if you go first and get to move and charge with your Cultists, but if you go second and your opponent has a lot of anti-infantry shooting you're likely to lose a ton of guys once you figure in morale. I've gone back to Horrors for competitive lists, since they're just so much more durable. With the Death Guard codex it may make sense to bring some Pox Walkers too and hide them behind Horrors -- you're essentially invincible as you walk up the field at this point because every 3 point Horror that gets killed spawns a new 6 point Poxwalker, with stratagems.

I've struggled to use Noise and Plague Marines. They're just so expensive. I always feel like I'm just giving my opponent good stuff to shoot at unless I hide them away in transports, but with the way I tend to build lists the transports stick out as a target for anti-tank weapons (I otherwise tend towards mass infantry). I know people here have suggested using a Kharybdis, and that probably makes sense but I haven't gotten to try it yet.

Obliterators are even better than they seem on paper. I knew they were hard to screen, with their 24" guns, but terrain often makes them basically impossible to hide from. They can deep strike in on top of a building in order to stay 9" away from units on the ground. I have found that they're very vulnerable to counter-assault; the worst example was a player who had Eversors in reserve and used them to attack Obliterators after they came in. It's less that they get killed and more that they get tied up. So it often makes sense to hold off on the Obliterators for a turn or two until you're in a better position, as long as the rest of your army is durable enough (here's where the Horrors come in). But their damage output is ridiculous. I am not sure that you can have too many of them; 3 units is easily justifiable in just about any list. I'm beginning to think that Iron Warriors is best for them, since you'll sometimes roll poorly for damage and have to take potshots at a dug-in unit in cover instead of the tank you were wanting to kill.

The codex's big weakness seems to be hordes, which is probably no surprise since that's what everyone's having a hard time with now. I've had a little success with summoning Bloodletters for this. I only summon once the Horrors are also in position to charge and tie things up, so missing the charge isn't disastrous, and the Obliterators are probably already on the table or are coming in the same turn. This is also what makes Noise Marines so appealing, but like I said their 24" range and lack of innate deep strike is a problem.

A non TSons Tzeentch list... Interesting.

First, CSM squads of 9, while fluffy, are really impractical. You only need one more model to take your second heavy/special weapon, and you really are not running MSU at 9 models per unit. Probably better to take that last model, and get the extra weapon.

Second, marks are free. The only real downside is that you are no longer undivided, and cannot take an Icon of Vengeance for leadership 9 on those 10 man squads. Not without spending command points to give them a mark after the game starts. Plus, while the Icon of Wrath sounds cool, it only triggers on a 6. If it was something crazy like D3 mortal wounds instead of just 1, then sure. But a 16.667% chance of dealing a mortal wound is not worth it in my mind. I'll take my ten points and buy a few more cultists.

Next, Sorcerers are Tzeentch's thing. And his stratagem only applies to psykers with his mark(wait, I can Prescience, Death Hex, AND Smite all at once?!?!). And between his relic adding one to your psychic tests, and his power improving/giving invulnerable saves, you really should run Sorcerers over Lords in a list like this. Especially in Open or Narrative play where you can multicast from different sources.

Also, regarding that psychic power of Tzeentch's, anyone who already has an Invul save should be in your repertoire. Invulnerable saves are both better and worse in this edition, because some of our more common infantry units with a 5++ also have a 2+ armor(Termies, and Oblits). This means that we only use it against Melta, and silly things like Knights, or other Apoc-point cost range models. Plasma? Their armor is degraded to 5+. But Tzeentch Psykers have the potential to improve those Invuls to a 4++, and that actually matters against things like Hellblasters, or Lascannons. Possessed and Warp Talons benefit more from the 5++ that they have, because it works against such things, but that Predator, or those ten marines we were talking about, sure could use a 5++ to cover themselves.

Ultimately, a list like this will not be too different from most undivided lists out there right now. you can't run the other cult troops, because you already said you want a Tzeenctch list, and fluff-wise all Rubric marines are TSons, but I could see a few of them being picked up after you killed their original Sorcerer, and are using them as automatons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Dionysodorus, I have not had much trouble getting cultists to work for me.. I usually run them as 10 man teams to fill out my list, and throw them in the back on an objective or towards a unit that can shoot pretty well, but that I can tie up in CQC for forever. If they die, then I am out 40 points. If they live they accomplish something far more important than any 40 point unit should be capable of doing. Of course, this doesn't really work for Tide of Traitors, where 10 cultists isn't worth the command point, but It allows them to do a job and do it well. And if they are Alpha Legion, and are being shot at with that -1 to hit, then they probably aren't getting shot at because there are much more tasty targets and your opponent suddenly needs to make his shots mean something.

Any competitive forge world models of Chaos Space Marines? Thanks.

Does The Dead Walk Again last forever?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Does The Dead Walk Again last forever?

Just until your next Movement phase, so you'd be doing something like taking a big core of Poxwalkers surrounded by other cheap infantry, and then for 2 CP each round your opponent can't shoot your Poxwalkers and any time one of your other infantry models dies within 7" of a Poxwalker, you get a new Poxwalker. Which probably means that if your other models are Cultists or Horrors it doesn't even make sense to shoot at them. It may take you two or three turns to get there but your slow CC horde is definitely making it to the enemy.

File this under poorly conceived tactica and overconfidence on legion traits.

Watched a game last night with an Alpha Legion list featuring Berzerkers, Close-combat Helbrutes, a Maulerfiend, Bikers, Cultists and a Kharybdis Assault Claw. The only special weapons I could see were meltas on the bikers.

He put 20 cultists in the KAC and ran the Berzerkers up the board. The player spent all that money on the KAC model and was unaware it could move or assault after arriving.

The cultists died to overwatch, morale checks, and taking a charge from his Space Marine opponent. The Berzerkers never made it into combat, the Helbrutes died to Lascannon shots, I'm pretty sure the only things that did any wounds on the Space Marine player were bolter shots from the bikes.

It just felt icky to watch. More people need to read Dakka.

Poorly conceived tactica? Overconfidence? Add to that 'not bothering to learn your own rules'.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Poorly conceived tactica? Overconfidence? Add to that 'not bothering to learn your own rules'.

Isn't that the tagline for this whole thread?

Someone putting cultists in a kharybdis physically pains me.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Someone putting cultists in a kharybdis physically pains me.

It personally gave me a stroke.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Anyone put their Kytan or Brass Scorpion to work in 8th yet? Any thoughts?
.

I've given my GBS a whirl. No where near as durable as previous editions (I wrote the 4Chan entry on it). It moves 12" and charges 3D6", you absolutely have to use its speed unless you're in a fortunate position to not be facing armies with much in the way of long range at fire. A DP with wings for re-rolls or Demonforge stratagem is a fair backup. On the counterside it will absolutely maim anything it shoots or chargers.

To give you an example, I've suffered a unit of 5 deffkoptas (circa 400pts) take half its wounds. In another instance, I've also had a pair of land speeders take off a good 5 wounds in a single turn at 48" range, far outside the reach of the scorpion.

Personally, it should have the same rules for enemies/allies in regards to psychic powers (as in, if enemies can cast curses that don't cause mortal wounds on it, allies should be able to cast powers that bless the scorpion). It should also have the same number of wounds as a Knight, 20 wounds is a bit of BS for its whopping 625pts tbh as it's not THAT durable even with a 3+/5++, heal 1 wound per turn and T8. I'd definitely say slightly overpriced for what it does, i'd personally say 500 would be more appropriate when I think of it relative to other LoW choices such as Magnus, Knights and Roboute.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on a non thousand sons mono tzeench list. Can it be effective? I am thinking of mixing in some tzeench demons (maknly for flamers and exalted flamers) . units on the csm side which i am definately wanting to include are
Lord or sorceror (ideally either in terminator armour or on disc)
A squad of terminators
Some possessed
A couple of 9 man squads of marines
A predator + some obliterators.
Im toying around with running a patrol detachment + vanguard

Daemon synergy is the primary reason to run Renegade Tzeentch instead of Thousand Sons IMO. Run a bunch of daemon keyword CSM and take a supreme command of The Changeling+Heralds.