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Niiru wrote: What is the current thinking on HQ choices? Lord vs Sorcerer, Jumppack vs Termi armour? Or is one Prince better than having a Lord+Sorc? (One prince seems to be a similar cost to a lord+sorc combo)
I think a mobile Sorcerer is pretty strong, you want to have Warptime but being able to also cast a god's protection spell or Death Hex is pretty important. I usually go with a Slaanesh Steed Sorcerer, as he gets a larger reach from his base, loses nothing from being disqualified for my Legion Trait, and he can benefit from Slaaneshi Herald buffs (usually goes off with one and a pack of Fiends or Seekers).
If you've got Berzerkers against IMPERIUM then a Dark Apostle will give them like a 103% hit rate. Again, must-have in the 150power games I'm playing, especially with Cursed Crozius. I've started taking an Exalted Champion with him, partly because I've not modelled my zerks with chainaxes (World Eaters auxiliaries are getting those), partly to avoid the six power fist attacks getting blocked, partly to fill out an extra detachment.
I usually take a Nurgle DP to rendezvous with the plasma deep strikers but I'm not sure that he's the best choice. I'm kind of tempted to switch him out for a Slaaneshi one who could benefit from Herald tricks and that magic potion, but I like having Grandfather's Blessings and Fleshy Abundance up my sleeve - especially when he exposes himself whilst finishing off a Death Hex target.
Is a double DP (QP?) list any good?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/18 00:58:50
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-flamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Power sword
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Combi-bolter, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: 20x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators: No Chaos Mark
Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
I like this list a lot better than your last list, but am wondering where the Primaris-killers are. It feels like your solution for them is Plasma, Plasma, Plasma. Which might work, only I think they can bring more than you are bringing.
When I read your list of available units, I thought 2 Preds with autocannons and heavy bolters might be nice options. Not positive how they compare to a HLD tho.
What is the reason for 10x Terminators instead of 2x5 Terminators? Feels like you would want to split them to keep wounds from spilling over, and maybe to position them in different places.
Niiru wrote: What is the current thinking on HQ choices? Lord vs Sorcerer, Jumppack vs Termi armour? Or is one Prince better than having a Lord+Sorc? (One prince seems to be a similar cost to a lord+sorc combo)
I think a mobile Sorcerer is pretty strong, you want to have Warptime but being able to also cast a god's protection spell or Death Hex is pretty important. I usually go with a Slaanesh Steed Sorcerer, as he gets a larger reach from his base, loses nothing from being disqualified for my Legion Trait, and he can benefit from Slaaneshi Herald buffs (usually goes off with one and a pack of Fiends or Seekers).
If you've got Berzerkers against IMPERIUM then a Dark Apostle will give them like a 103% hit rate. Again, must-have in the 150power games I'm playing, especially with Cursed Crozius. I've started taking an Exalted Champion with him, partly because I've not modelled my zerks with chainaxes (World Eaters auxiliaries are getting those), partly to avoid the six power fist attacks getting blocked, partly to fill out an extra detachment.
I usually take a Nurgle DP to rendezvous with the plasma deep strikers but I'm not sure that he's the best choice. I'm kind of tempted to switch him out for a Slaaneshi one who could benefit from Herald tricks and that magic potion, but I like having Grandfather's Blessings and Fleshy Abundance up my sleeve - especially when he exposes himself whilst finishing off a Death Hex target.
Is a double DP (QP?) list any good?
I actually keep forgetting that the steed etc CSM sorcerers are still an option, I need to copy/paste the index pages into my CSM codex really. I have been tempted by a daemons sorcerer on chariot a few times, and if I do stick with chaos for the long haul then I may make myself some more daemon units while I'm at it.
I also forgot that the Apostle was another HQ choice haha, but my points are so limited due to all the Engines I'm trying to pack in there that I think I need to prioritise. A lord would be handy in the rear on the gunline, and a sorcerer would be handy on the front lines. Or I could keep all my units moving and use a prince for both roles.
Saying that...my gunline currently consists of a leviathan dread. I used to have a battery of 3x Rapier Quad Heavy Bolters, but tapping into renegades was causing issues with them not having any other decent units to field along with it. So I could change the butcher cannons for Grav Flux's, and keep the Levi stomping up behind the contemptors and maulerfiend, and maybe ending up in range of a Prince aura.
Hell, might mean I could drop the need for a seperate lord and find points for two princes...
So I'll second Lindsay's question - How good is a double-DP? (DVDA?) (Sorry, couldn't help it. They do funny songs.)
If you're bringing loads of melee Daemon Engines then a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion could be incredible. With those chunky bases reaching back to them, it's like an always-on Daemonforge. Now I definitely want to give this a go with Voice do Lorgar.
JuggerAxeLord and Jugger Herald behind a Rhino full of Khorne Possessed looks pretty meaty. Maybe have an EC or Sorcerer along for the ride and you've got a Supreme Command to pick off the shelf. Make it 20 in a Spartan and we're getting close to deleting anything they reach.
Running three predators is superior to running two predators because of the +1 strength +1 damage until end of phase stratagem. I would assume a dark apostle and exalted champion in a rhino each with 9 khorne berserkers is optimal. Is running a third hq good in a melee army like Abaddon or a daemon prince? Or is two HQs as opposed to three to save points better depending on the army?
lindsay40k wrote: If you're bringing loads of melee Daemon Engines then a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion could be incredible. With those chunky bases reaching back to them, it's like an always-on Daemonforge. Now I definitely want to give this a go with Voice do Lorgar.
JuggerAxeLord and Jugger Herald behind a Rhino full of Khorne Possessed looks pretty meaty. Maybe have an EC or Sorcerer along for the ride and you've got a Supreme Command to pick off the shelf. Make it 20 in a Spartan and we're getting close to deleting anything they reach.
Voice do Lorgar?
I can see what you mean about the apostle + champion, but I only have a maulerfiend and two contemptors, so thats like... 18 attacks total? Not sure if its enough attacks to make it worthwhile, when you'd normally have berserkers or something throwing out 40 attacks or more each turn (or whatever it is they do lol).
Though I may end up making the models for it one day, just to do fun lists with added HQ's buffing units, but I'm not sure how much priority I should give them...
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: Black Legion
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-flamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Power sword
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Combi-bolter, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: 20x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun, Mark of Slaanesh
Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
4x Marine w/ Boltgun
Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
+ Elites +
Chaos Terminators: No Chaos Mark
Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
Terminator: Combi-plasma, Power axe
I like this list a lot better than your last list, but am wondering where the Primaris-killers are. It feels like your solution for them is Plasma, Plasma, Plasma. Which might work, only I think they can bring more than you are bringing.
When I read your list of available units, I thought 2 Preds with autocannons and heavy bolters might be nice options. Not positive how they compare to a HLD tho.
What is the reason for 10x Terminators instead of 2x5 Terminators? Feels like you would want to split them to keep wounds from spilling over, and maybe to position them in different places.
Naaww. Keep those Terminators in a Squad of ten and give them the mark of Slaanesh for the Strategem.
It is a lot of eggs in one basket, but man, what a basket!!
I tried a squad of 10 Terminators and the fist attempt was disappointing. 7 of them with combi-plasmas, 2 combi-bolters,1 Heavy flamer and a combination of power axes, power swords and a couple of power fists. Quite pricy but I couldn't wait to activate the stratagem on them.
Nothing worked as I expected. Crazy bad rolls on the first shooting (killed 2 Screammers) and bad positioning didn't allow me to shoot at the Daemon Prince of my opponent with the Stratagem. Killed a couple of Tzaangors instead and charged the Daemon Prince thanks to Warptime. Didn't even touch him, flew on his turn and charged the termies with a bunch of Horrors after shooting the hell out of them with a squad of Rubrics.
Now, that bad game was a combination of poor rools and a lot of mistakes on my own - I even forgot the Terminators have 2 attacks! - but it seems to me that having 2 squads of 5, or even just one squad of 5 trmies with combi-plasma works better and makes harder for your opponent to focus on just one big target.
I will try again with that unit since I own the models, but don't think I am including that big squad in my future lists. Hopefully you guys can avoid the big amount of mistakes I made.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 14:45:35
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your first problem was not using the Reaper Autocannon over the Heavy Flamer. It actually works well if you plan that double tap drop.
Oh, that is a nice idea, and I have a model with a Repaer Autocannon (yes, I have a lot of Terminators). I can equip both on a squad of 10, right? The rule says I can equip one special weapon for each 5 models.
Some things i'm starting to see time and time again with my IW's
1. Obilts are actually rather good and when they roll good they are amazing
2. DPs really gonna gear mine now to survive instead of being choppy... they aint making it there more times than they do
3. Meltagun havocs in a rhino.. just not feeling them seem to die to easily before getting into that nice 6" range.
4. vindicators ... meh
5. lascannon havocs - outstanding
I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
While I'm asking Tzeentch related things, what do people think of the Rubrics at the moment? Their statline seems inferior to noise marines, but their auto-sorcerer and weapon options seem like it might be interesting. How do people run them? Or are they just inferior to noise marines across the board?
edit: Also, Warp Talons vs Raptors - Do either of these have a decent place in a list, or are they seen as being a bit too weak? The only thing I've seen is on 1D4chan, which pretty much says they're both worthless, but that hasn't been updated since the Index so I dunno if anything has changed...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/18 22:25:36
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
If I were to run two units of Oblits, it would definitely be one of each. No point taking more than 1 slaanesh unit, except that I guess the first one will die haha but usually by then you're pretty low on CP anyhow.
I do prefer the slaanesh approach over the Tzeentch approach for a single unit, but if you have other units that are making use of the double fire stratagem, then it's fine to do mono Tzeentch Oblits. As long as you don't wind up with enough CP to multi fire a unit, and have no slaanesh units on the board, with a decent amount of regularity, you're doing just fine.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
Probably means the stacking -1 to hit fro Changeling and Alpha Legion. Put them in cover for a 1+ armor save too.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
Its a -2 to hit if you're within 9" of Changling, and outside 12" of enemies due to Alpha Legion. It absolutely was soul-crushing for my Guard playing opponent, misery inducing for a 'Nid opponent, and ditto vs. an Ork player who functionally couldn't shoot them.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I've now run Alpha Legion Obliterators, near a Changling, three times, and in every game they've been MVPs.
I cannot believe how good they are, and while running one unit as Slaanesh-marked for double-fire is tempting, the frustrating durability of Tzeench-marked has proven to do more, at least for me, across the longer game.
Do you mean just because of the -1 to hit from the changeling? Or is there something else you're making use of?
Its a -2 to hit if you're within 9" of Changling, and outside 12" of enemies due to Alpha Legion. It absolutely was soul-crushing for my Guard playing opponent, misery inducing for a 'Nid opponent, and ditto vs. an Ork player who functionally couldn't shoot them.
It is tragic, which is part of why these armies struggle so mightily in the competitive scene right now. Multiple negative modifiers and no way to mitigate them are awful for armies that don't have a 3+ BS in the first place. It's why footslogging warp talons are great in alpha legion, as well as the Maulerfiend.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your first problem was not using the Reaper Autocannon over the Heavy Flamer. It actually works well if you plan that double tap drop.
Oh, that is a nice idea, and I have a model with a Repaer Autocannon (yes, I have a lot of Terminators). I can equip both on a squad of 10, right? The rule says I can equip one special weapon for each 5 models.
Yep. You can divert the Autocannons as needed too. Even Conscripts will lose like 9-10 models to Autocannons doubling on them while the Plasma goes after other targets twice.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Has anyone thought about being a real meany and have an army of:
Nurgle ThunderHawk with a sorcerer to give it -1 to hit,
The Changeling
And as many Warptalons and Obliteraters you can fit into a list.
Everything is either -2 to hit or can't be fired upon whilst not being the closest model, you'll have a stupid amount of fire power with the Oblits and ThunderHawk and the Warptalons can do some heavy lifting in CQC. Off the top of my head, would that be 3 units of Oblits and 3 units of Talons along with the characters and flyer in a 2000pt list?
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
I'm usually taking a Daemons Battalion with two Nurgling Squads and a Plaguebearers squad. Mischief Makers is excellent, you can easily have four objectives under your control at the start of Maelstrom and it seems to take about a dozen shots fired to kill a single base. They can draw an opponent out to where your mobile units can charge them, which if you have Fiends is brilliant as it locks down an entire flank's shooting. The Plaguebearers make an infuriatingly robust speedbump or screen that doesn't need cover, and are good guards for a Herald throwing healing spells at Obliterators or my DP.
I'll also take a Word Bearers Battalion with three Cultist units, two of them pretty minimal to just screen deep strikes, one of them quite large to do a human attack wave that puts itself in harm's way to draw fire before being recycled & outflanking.
I flirted with CSM squads but they're just too expensive compared with four times as many Cultists. My Bolter guys now serve as ablative wounds in Havoc Squads, or as Rapier crew.
Not impressed with the other Daemon infantry, T3 is just not good enough for melee specialists with no Transports when I have Berzerkers and Possessed, haven't even bothered trying to get a summoned daemon bomb ploy together. I don't mind paying Reinforcement Points for them but the fact that they also have to wait for a character to get into position and then forfeit a movement phase is really not drawing me in, this Attack will broadcast itself.
Pink Horrors would be a must have were I not playing Power games where generating two blues or a single brimstone would cost as many Reinforcement points as Epidemius. I hope we get a TSons Codex before long with a more granular costing for them in the Power Level Matched Play that GW have explicitly endorsed with the Throne of Skulls setup.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 00:42:22
mrhappyface wrote: Has anyone thought about being a real meany and have an army of:
Nurgle ThunderHawk with a sorcerer to give it -1 to hit,
The Changeling
And as many Warptalons and Obliteraters you can fit into a list.
Everything is either -2 to hit or can't be fired upon whilst not being the closest model, you'll have a stupid amount of fire power with the Oblits and ThunderHawk and the Warptalons can do some heavy lifting in CQC. Off the top of my head, would that be 3 units of Oblits and 3 units of Talons along with the characters and flyer in a 2000pt list?
I assume you're picking warp talons because they get the changeling buff as they're counted as daemons? I'm currently waiting for a reply regarding the usefulness of talons vs raptors, as I know talons can't get marks and dont seem to get much in the way of buffs from other units (they get changeling buff, but changeling needs to be within 9" and talons will be deep striking).
Also, wouldn't the oblits be better off being slaneesh, for the double fire?
And the chances of all those units being within 9" of the footslogging changeling is slim, likely only one or two units at any given time, I'd have thought...
@Niiru - I dig Warp Talons, their purpose is not so much to actually kill stuff but to be a disruptive factor. Deep strike in, Warptime, declare a charge against everything within 12", see how far you can get. If you're not facing Ultramarines or Harlequins or various FLY or TITANIC stuff, everyone you tag loses a shooting phase. And even if you are, you can disarm a unit that has horrific Overwatch so that your real shock Troops can get stuck in. MOS is probably best for them ATM, extra hits against half the armies you'll face and access to an endurance spell from the sorcerer that Warptimed them.
Raptors are interesting with an Icon of Despair but everything they do seems to be done better by other units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 00:51:25
So, after playing three tournament games and one casual game with Berzerkers, I'm actually feeling a little underwhelmed with how they do. In all four of the games they really didn't ever get to charge anything interesting thanks to intervening chaff units (cultists, conscripts, etc.) and their Rhinos more often than not just got popped before they could get close enough, meaning the Zerkers just got shot off the table. In the tournament I was running three units, in the casual game I only ran two, and I actually did get a charge in against some Genestealers, but after one round of combat my opponent just spent 2 CP to interrupt and scrag them. In one of the tournament games, I attempted a last-ditch Hail Mary effort to take out Roboute Guilliman, and same story (interrupted combat and destroyed them). I'm starting to think maybe they aren't as powerful as I've been led to believe. Two rounds of attacks don't mean jack if your opponent just gets to interrupt combat and wipe them out.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You need your bumps felt. With a patented, Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000.
The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
I ran Khorne berserkers for the first time Wednesday against my brother's four razorbacks with two assault cannons each, three predators with four lascannons, a land raider with four lascannons, and two vindicators all with 4+ invulnerable saves next to his special character. He blew up both my
rhinos before I got to charge and charged me with his predator. It took two turns and two cp points of +1 to wound strategem to destroy the predator and afterwards my Khorne berserkers were shot off the table. I managed to use the 1 cp stratgem to give my three predators +1 strength and +1
wound until end of phase which with my autocannons was devastating against him. I took out four vehicles but still lost. I hope my Khorne berserkers will do better this Thursday against either my friend's black templars, chaos space marines, inquisition, or orks. I'll remember to use smoke launchers
this time, and am going to run a dark apostle and exalted champion this time. Although I only played one game with Khorne berserkers and they underperformed, and with the person's post above me who said they underperform, I'm getting worried that they are overrated too. I guess they are good
against plague marines though. Which are a popular army now these days due to the starter set. What do you guys think of Khorne berserkers or had any luck with them? Thanks.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
Epidemius. I hope we get a TSons Codex before long with a more granular costing for them in the Power Level Matched Play that 
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
