Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
lindsay40k wrote: Well, a big part of Nurgle is about the infected serving Nurgle to save themselves. Could be that this mechanical host remain only carriers with no visible symptoms as long as they spread grandfather's blessings to more hosts?
I give all my sorcerers spectral Familiars as this was an important thing as a wysiwygAAC collector in previous editions. This leads me to envisage a still fully organic technomancer directing his little dark cherubs, mecha-golems, and chaotic servo-skulls? Maybe even carried on a Palanquin borne by his creations? I recall a scene in E For Evolution where a fevered Professor X dismantles his wheelchair and it's pieces form shapes from his subconscious.
That is certainly an interesting thought... Not sure about the palanquin though, as the rules don't seem worth it from my brief glance at the rules. I usually end up picking jetpack or terminator armour, for the deepstrike. None of the chaos mounts seem worthwhile, except maybe the disc of tzeentch to go with a changeling aura.
Edit: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/22 00:28:33
Any thoughts on whether the Word Bearers stratagem would work for an Arch-Daemonic Ritual for summoning one of the big four? While I'd very much like it to I'm leaning towards it probably not. In standard English an "arch-daemonic ritual" is a subset of "daemonic rituals" but I don't think it applies that way here.
The reason I'm asking is that I am wondering whether it's worth trying to summon Zarakynel on turn 2 with units that come out of a Dreadclaw turn 1. If the stratagem doesn't work then it's probably better to summon a shed load of Bloodletters instead.
saint_red wrote: Any thoughts on whether the Word Bearers stratagem would work for an Arch-Daemonic Ritual for summoning one of the big four? While I'd very much like it to I'm leaning towards it probably not. In standard English an "arch-daemonic ritual" is a subset of "daemonic rituals" but I don't think it applies that way here.
The reason I'm asking is that I am wondering whether it's worth trying to summon Zarakynel on turn 2 with units that come out of a Dreadclaw turn 1. If the stratagem doesn't work then it's probably better to summon a shed load of Bloodletters instead.
Unfortunatly I think the answer is no. While it is still a "daemonic ritual", it does specifically say that you have to use a new rule, which is called "Arch-daemonic Ritual". And the strategem says "using a Daemonic Ritual". I assume this is referencing the specific rule, rather that just saying "any type of ritual that summons daemons". You might be able to make the case in friendly games, but I dunno what tournament judges would say. I suspect they'd just say no though.
Niiru wrote: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
Pg 96: Inexorable Advance (move & shoot better) only works on INFANTRY & Helbrutes (same lower case questions as C:CSM) in DEATH GUARD detachments. Plague Host (ObSec) only works on Troops in DEATH GUARD detachments. So yeah, all three of the new Daemon Engine units lose nothing from being in CHAOS soup detachments, but Plague Marines and Plasma Cataphractii certainly want purity and probably so too do Poxwalkers and Cultists.
I guess the main thing that will make soup less attractive is when Daemons get their deity/host/etc traits. Be interesting to see how that fits in with DAEMON HERETIC ASTARTES units.
Still shocked there's no Havocs equivalent or straight up new general set, Raptors and Bikers might have been a big 'it doesn't say you can't' divergence from traditional DG builds but I know there's a lot of people who destroyed heavy bolters or bought from Forgeworld to field those amazing Autocannon Squads that 7ed loved as much as HH does. And no Warpsmith. Who's making these new Daemon Engines?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/22 01:13:51
Niiru wrote: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
Pg 96: Inexorable Advance (move & shoot better) only works on INFANTRY & Helbrutes (same lower case questions as C:CSM) in DEATH GUARD detachments. Plague Host (ObSec) only works on Troops in DEATH GUARD detachments. So yeah, all three of the new Daemon Engine units lose nothing from being in CHAOS soup detachments, but Plague Marines and Plasma Cataphractii certainly want purity and probably so too do Poxwalkers and Cultists.
I guess the main thing that will make soup less attractive is when Daemons get their deity/host/etc traits. Be interesting to see how that fits in with DAEMON HERETIC ASTARTES units.
Still shocked there's no Havocs equivalent or straight up new general set, Raptors and Bikers might have been a big 'it doesn't say you can't' divergence from traditional DG builds but I know there's a lot of people who destroyed heavy bolters or bought from Forgeworld to field those amazing 7ed Autocannon Squads.
It just says that the detachment needs to be battleforged. It does say it has to be a DEATH GUARD detachment... but it doesn't specify that all units in the detachment must have the legion keyword <DEATH GUARD>.
This is different to the CSM codex, which specifies "so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion".
So as long as a detachment has death guard units in it, you can call it a death guard detachment. Doesn't seem to matter if it also has other units in it. Though only Death Guard units in the detachment would get a trait.
Someone was asking about a chaos full termie army in the general forum and I thought it was an interesting concept for an army.
Black Legion Batallion detachment.
1 Abaddon.
1 sorceror termi lord
1 squad of slanaash 10 termis with combi plasma. (icon of excess)
1 squads of 8 slanaash termis with combi plasma. (icons of excess)
1 squads of 10 Khorne terminators with combi bolters (icon of wrath)
5 cultist squads of 10 each
For the black legion detachment, take slanaash terminators, take at least one big squad of ten with combi plasma. Take a Slanaash terminator sorceror as well. This is the shooty part. Deep strike them within 9.1 inches along with the sorceror and Abbadon, then doubletap with overcharged combi plasmas. So, you get rerolls to hit on 20 shots at str 8, 2 damage. Then use that slanaash strategem to make a unit shoot again and repeat for another 20 shots. That's 40 shots of over charged plasma.
Your slanaash sorceror has warp time and either prescience or delightful agonies. Given how dangerous that unit is, it might get focus fired. So cast delightful agonies which gives it 5+ FNP for more resilience.
So, this build pumps out 40+16 = 56 plasma shots at double tap range. and 40 bolter shots for chaff clearing. You can tweak the number of plasma terminators in the second slanaash terminator squad by reducing the number of combi plasmas for more combi bolter terminators if you wish. And what if the enemy bubble wraps so that you don't even have a decent target to double tap your plasma within 12 inches upon deep strike? Then that's what warp time is for. Then don't use warp time on your khorne termis. Cast it on that big 10 man slanaash squad so that they move another 6 inches. Now they are further forward 6 inches. If there is still nothing decent to double tap your plasma within 12 inches after deep striking within 9.1 inches and moving forward another 6 inches, then your enemy is a master at bubblewrapping or just simply, run full hoard with characters and nothing else. In which case, just it doesn't matter, just full shoot everything at the chaff anyway. lol.
Khorne terminators are there to clear chaff with combi bolters and the charge into melee (icon of wrath). Abaddon's warlord trait makes them deadly too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't want that many big squads of Terminators. Definitely split the Khorne one in half and get points for another Icon for them.
I could do that, but that means I need yet another squad of cultists as tax... lol
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't want that many big squads of Terminators. Definitely split the Khorne one in half and get points for another Icon for them.
I could do that, but that means I need yet another squad of cultists as tax... lol
Honestly since you're going with Abigail, he's gonna give you enough CP that you don't NEED the cultist tax a whole lot. Have you considered maybe just a couple of Vangaurd detachment with Cultists to round it off or something else?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
My original army list was vanguard. But the issue is if you want to deep strike, you still need half your units on the table. So, if I want to deep strike 6 units, then I need 6 cultist units on the table.
Eldenfirefly wrote: My original army list was vanguard. But the issue is if you want to deep strike, you still need half your units on the table. So, if I want to deep strike 6 units, then I need 6 cultist units on the table.
If you actually want to do that list, add the 6th squad of cultists and 3 more malefic lords. 130 points will net you 4 additional CP
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You don't want that many big squads of Terminators. Definitely split the Khorne one in half and get points for another Icon for them.
I could do that, but that means I need yet another squad of cultists as tax... lol
Honestly since you're going with Abigail, he's gonna give you enough CP that you don't NEED the cultist tax a whole lot. Have you considered maybe just a couple of Vangaurd detachment with Cultists to round it off or something else?
I actually assumed the "tax" he was paying was for deep strike anchors... I dunno abbadons rules offhand but the 3 termi squads plus termi sorcerer would need 4 non-deepstrike units. Guess Abby can deepstrike too. So that's 5 cultist squads.
You could save some points by using brimstone squads instead I think. Just put them in a different detachment. Dunno how you'd organise it but it might work. Or nurglings, and they'd also fit your teleport theme (but I think are still anchors cos they do "start" on the table).
saint_red wrote: Any thoughts on whether the Word Bearers stratagem would work for an Arch-Daemonic Ritual for summoning one of the big four? While I'd very much like it to I'm leaning towards it probably not. In standard English an "arch-daemonic ritual" is a subset of "daemonic rituals" but I don't think it applies that way here.
The reason I'm asking is that I am wondering whether it's worth trying to summon Zarakynel on turn 2 with units that come out of a Dreadclaw turn 1. If the stratagem doesn't work then it's probably better to summon a shed load of Bloodletters instead.
Unfortunatly I think the answer is no. While it is still a "daemonic ritual", it does specifically say that you have to use a new rule, which is called "Arch-daemonic Ritual". And the strategem says "using a Daemonic Ritual". I assume this is referencing the specific rule, rather that just saying "any type of ritual that summons daemons". You might be able to make the case in friendly games, but I dunno what tournament judges would say. I suspect they'd just say no though.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. So that sucks but I realised it's possible to put R&H units into the Dreadclaw, so instead of sacrificing a marine sorceror you can sacrifice a 30 point Malefic Lord. It also means there's even less use in going Word Bearers.
Niiru wrote: Something I just noticed, and I'm not sure if I've just missed the appropriate line in the rules, but Death Guard don't seem to have the same "All units in the detachment must be of the same legion in order for the detachment to get the legion trait" that all the codex chaos legions have to follow. Meaning you can add any nurgle daemons you want to a single Death Guard detachment, and it'll still be battleforged and get the trait? Though I dunno how good that trait actually is, as it only works on infantry.
Pg 96: Inexorable Advance (move & shoot better) only works on INFANTRY & Helbrutes (same lower case questions as C:CSM) in DEATH GUARD detachments. Plague Host (ObSec) only works on Troops in DEATH GUARD detachments. So yeah, all three of the new Daemon Engine units lose nothing from being in CHAOS soup detachments, but Plague Marines and Plasma Cataphractii certainly want purity and probably so too do Poxwalkers and Cultists.
I guess the main thing that will make soup less attractive is when Daemons get their deity/host/etc traits. Be interesting to see how that fits in with DAEMON HERETIC ASTARTES units.
Still shocked there's no Havocs equivalent or straight up new general set, Raptors and Bikers might have been a big 'it doesn't say you can't' divergence from traditional DG builds but I know there's a lot of people who destroyed heavy bolters or bought from Forgeworld to field those amazing 7ed Autocannon Squads.
It just says that the detachment needs to be battleforged. It does say it has to be a DEATH GUARD detachment... but it doesn't specify that all units in the detachment must have the legion keyword <DEATH GUARD>.
This is different to the CSM codex, which specifies "so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion".
So as long as a detachment has death guard units in it, you can call it a death guard detachment. Doesn't seem to matter if it also has other units in it. Though only Death Guard units in the detachment would get a trait.
BRB, pg 240: 'A unit's Faction is important when building a Battle-forged army because some Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same Faction'
Whilst there is no explicit definition presented of what constitutes a DEATH GUARD detachment, I am overwhelmingly inclined to the common sense interpretation that a Supreme Command consisting of a Malefic Lord, Abaddon, Lord of Change, Blightlord Terminators, and a Renegade Knight would not qualify. I would not base my purchasing choices on hoping that any other interpretation would survive the first FAQ, or be accepted by TOs or the majority of players.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saint_red wrote: It's <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos> which I believe R&H have access to right?
Malefic Lord Faction Keywords: CHAOS, RENEGADE & HERETICS
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/22 13:22:43
Alright, Nerds. This is what I'm working with for now. Feels really solid, has a good punch behind it. Any opinions? My goal is to, in the next few months, phase out Magnus and replace him with Noise Marines.
saint_red wrote: It's <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos> which I believe R&H have access to right?
Malefic Lord Faction Keywords: CHAOS, RENEGADE & HERETICS
Ah damn, that means the Daemonic Lord summoning idea is out the window. Not really sure the best way to get leverage out of the Word Bearers stratagem other than a turn 2 bloodletter bomb.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/22 15:26:50
Yeah, really should have been a Legion trait instead of a stratagem. Wouldn't make it more useful, but IMO the bearers of the word are in a pretty mediocre place, so in the situations when summoning is utilized they'd at least have something worthwhile.
I think we'll gain more utility when the Daemon codex comes out. At the present time it's not really worth summoning stuff because we've got units that will fill similar roles. If Dark Pact worked on Arch-Daemonic Rituals then having a really solid chance to summon a Daemon Lord on turn 2 could be really fun.
Whilst there is no explicit definition presented of what constitutes a DEATH GUARD detachment
There is actually
P96 of codex. A Death Guard Detachment is a detachment which includes only DEATH GUARD units.
Ah, there we go. Always read the introductory paragraph!
Ahh I'm not home to check but I only read the rule on the traits page, which I assume is a different page haha. My bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lindsay40k wrote: Well, this is more a tactics than a hobby thread, but have you considered your sorcerers could be technomancers? There was a whole magic discipline for it before, and most of the spells can be reimagined as such.
Daemon engines suggests Epidemius to me, especially if you're going to include the ubiquitous Obliterators and some of those Death Guard machines.
Spoiler:
What Lindsay said about Technomancers stuck with me last night while I was mulling through army ideas, and one of the alternative models I found for a unit made me realise the (probably obvious) link between technomancy and necromancy. Merging my old dark mechanicus idea, with a group of sorcerers who raise and build an army of walkers and beasts to fight for them. Lets me have some nice character units, while also having tech walkers with bone armour and black robes. Throw in some skeletons and I'm good to go!
Units I'd use (which is pretty much all the ones I like) would be :
Daemon Prince
Sorcerers
Obliterators
Warp Talons
Maulerfiends
Giant Chaos Spawn
I realised by this point that most of these units count as daemons, except for the contemptor/leviathan... Which might mean it would be possible to have a mix of CSM sorcerer and Chaos Daemons psyker (either character or herald) for a wider pool of spells to cast (thought this is only good if there are actually decent spells to try and cast...) So it opens up adding a few damon units too, though I'd probably have to convert those to fit the theme...
Which leads to the tactics questions:
1) Would an army built around these units actually be feasible? I know obliterators are strong right now, but I assume they'd need backing up by other units. What am I missing that would fill the gaps?
2) Which chaos god would be the better fit? Nurgle has the option to heal wounds to nurgle daemon units, which would seem to work on the maulerfiend and the giant spawn, which seems pretty handy. Don't know how well the rest of the nurgle discipline stacks up against the others though. I'd expect nurgle to have the weakest psykers. Actually I realise the nurgle psykers have no mounts at all, so the fastest is only 6". Would need to be summoned, which isn't ideal. Tzeentch powers seem good, but high cast cost so unreliable? And slaneesh... not sure. Symphony seems like it might be interesting to stack with alpha legion and changeling (even though that's tzeentch, it seems like all 3 would stack?).
Maybe this is a bad idea to mix these things, but it would be fun to model a mix of bones and technology. Colour scheme should look pretty good too (hopefully).
I realise this may be a bit much for this thread, so I may end up reposting this in it's own thread in the general forum.
I've posted this question in the general forum now, as it seemed a better place for it, but I'll leave it spoilered here in case someone wanted to reply in here for some reason. Appreciate any help in that other thread though Thanks
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/22 20:52:44
How are Obliterators in 8th edition? I was thinking about using them as Alpha Legion as a backup firing line to a combi-plasma Terminator squad with Sorcerer support while a Rhino full of Berzerkers and a Daemon Prince advance up the board with a Heldrake providing key target harassment while Noise Marines go around taking objectives, does that sound viable?
For the points, jet pack seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me, though I'm not sure about whether terminator armour is a worthwhile alternative. I know some people also like the daemon mounts, but I'm concerned that they're being phased out of the game by GW so dunno if I want to invest unless its really worthwhile for my list.
Which weapons though? Do you stay default with force sword + bolt pistol, or are there some worthy upgrades to pick up? I did consider combi-plasma, but it would only be the one guy shooting.
I'm considering deep striking a sorcerer in with a squad of warp talons. Warptime and maybe Prescience or Miasma of Pestilence, depending on if they're better of killier or tougher.
Niiru wrote: How are people equipping their Sorcerers?
For the points, jet pack seems like a no-brainer upgrade to me, though I'm not sure about whether terminator armour is a worthwhile alternative. I know some people also like the daemon mounts, but I'm concerned that they're being phased out of the game by GW so dunno if I want to invest unless its really worthwhile for my list.
Which weapons though? Do you stay default with force sword + bolt pistol, or are there some worthy upgrades to pick up? I did consider combi-plasma, but it would only be the one guy shooting.
I'm considering deep striking a sorcerer in with a squad of warp talons. Warptime and maybe Prescience or Miasma of Pestilence, depending on if they're better of killier or tougher.
I'm mainly running a Slaanesh Steed guy. He gets Herald buffs, I want the option of DA if Warptime isn't needed, he can Advance and pop a shot with his Combi-Flamer then charge. Gave him Force Axe as we usually end up having a cavalry battle between T5 Thunderwolves and Slaaneshi critters. Won me my last game by being able to zoom up to Harald Deathwolf and Smite him to contribute to Kingslayer.
In small games, I've had good results with a bare bones Sorcerer. He enabled a horde to run right up to the enemy and force them to drop their Terminators in to deal with them. After that, they had to walk across the board towards my Havocs.
Jump Pack seems the way to go for a Warp Talon strike. You ideally want to be able to drop outside of DTW coverage.
My friends want to try some Open and Narrative games. Definitely going to be dropping in a Terminator Sorcerer; he lands in a Ruin where he can Warptime some Terminators or whatever, and in subsequent turns he's a source of Summoning with loads of wounds and a solid save. Suddenly, WB become amazing!
I've mothballed my Palanquin Sorcerer, he was an excellent Summoner in 7ed but now that he can't move and bring the Warp... I'm not finding him worth it at all tbh. Maybe dig him out in an Epidemius list where he can Smite and Gaze some kills, but that's hella marginal and if that's his game then he wants to be DG, not WB - or better yet, drop him and just take more Obliterators.
Actually, RAW, a Palanquin Sorcerer is pure DG's only source of Warptime & (maybe) Death Hex. That's a niche I hadn't considered. Probably end up getting FAQ'd to Contagion, though - if you already have one then whip that piñata, but don't bother sinking time & money into a hobby project just to exploit this loophole.
