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Why Cultists infiltrating? Why not Noise Marines?

I think if you want a big zerk unit, it's best off in a Spartan. Even then, two squads in Rhinos are probably better. KAC is interesting but give you two things that really want to be Warptimed, which isn't ideal in Matched Play. Which brings up the weakness of pure WE lists - Warptime, Death Hex, and the three deities' endurance spells are a huge opportunity cost for the +1A.

Anyone have any luck using chaos boon with morty and/or magnus? Adding 1 toughness / the possibility of adding to the save look spicy. I get it is highly variable but if you save a reroll the odds of 1:1 or 6:6 seems slim.

I don't think you can boon a daemon character.

You can boon any Tzeentch Daemon unit, which is OK for loads of HA units but not Mortarion as his Mark is incompatible

 lindsay40k wrote:
You can boon any Tzeentch Daemon unit, which is OK for loads of HA units but not Mortarion as his Mark is incompatible

I think he meant the Boon Stratagem.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I don't think you can boon a daemon character.

It's... weird. The Death Guard version excludes Daemon Characters and therefore would exclude Mortarion, but CSM version only excludes Daemon Princes, and since it calls out <Heretic Astartes> it may be used on Mortarion if you have a CSM detachment. I think the intent is that you can't use Chaos Boon on the daemon primarchs but by RAW you can.

I guess this is covered on page 156 of the codex:
Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legion deviate significantly in terms of organization and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section. Instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codex's.

In any case I did not notice that this was clarified in the FAQ:
Page 158
– Chaos Boon
Change the first sentence of rules text to read:
‘You can use this Stratagem at the end of a Fight phase
in which one of your Heretic Astartes Characters
(excluding Daemon Characters) slays an enemy
Character, Vehicle or Monster.’

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I don't think you can boon a daemon character.

It's... weird. The Death Guard version excludes Daemon Characters and therefore would exclude Mortarion, but CSM version only excludes Daemon Princes, and since it calls out <Heretic Astartes> it may be used on Mortarion if you have a CSM detachment. I think the intent is that you can't use Chaos Boon on the daemon primarchs but by RAW you can.

Csm version has been faqd to be the same wording as DG

Okay, here’s a possible contradiction: CSM pg156 says that DG & TS cannot benefit from any of these, after a list including Stratagems. I seem to recall a community post or something in which it was stated that taking a CSM Detachment opens up CSM Stratagems, and CSM Stratagems which affect a HERETIC ASTARTES unit could be used on a DG or TS unit. I need to resolve this as I’m building a few Word Bearers - DG lists that might want to use Tide of Traitors on DG Cultists.

Yeah the DG faq said that DG (and by extension TS) CAN use CSM stratagems , if they are unlocked and match all the keywords.

*poxwalker farming intensifies*

Is there a tactical section in this thread with what works and how it works?

After their point drop, Defilers are now pretty efficient in terms of power vs points. Just don't put twin lascannons on them because their BS 4+ doesn't make it worth it. Since lascannons all cost 25 points a piece, better to add that to something with a BS 4+ rather than a defiler.

But everything else, Defiler is great. I equipped mine with twin heavy bolter (more shots), combi bolter and power scourge. In close combat, it was deadly, and ranged wise, it was decent too. And it was very resilient. Even if one gets destroyed, its barely 169 points. I took two Defilers and they stamped their presence on the board. For 169 points, they extremely hard to remove.

They are pretty deadly in close combat too. I have had my defiler tank Celestine before. She then fall back because she wasn't gonna kill the defiler anytime soon and a few lucky hits from the defiler may kill her instead. I had my defiler charged by a death company blood angels captain who was the warlord and it not only survived, it killed the captain too. This was despite that captain rocking a storm shield with a 3++

Because its close combat weapons are very high damage, so all you need is to have two hits go through and it would kill most characters. I am loving that my defilers are relevant again!

That's great to hear. Been relegated to intentional list weakening category for far too long.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
After their point drop, Defilers are now pretty efficient in terms of power vs points. Just don't put twin lascannons on them because their BS 4+ doesn't make it worth it. Since lascannons all cost 25 points a piece, better to add that to something with a BS 4+ rather than a defiler.

But everything else, Defiler is great. I equipped mine with twin heavy bolter (more shots), combi bolter and power scourge. In close combat, it was deadly, and ranged wise, it was decent too. And it was very resilient. Even if one gets destroyed, its barely 169 points. I took two Defilers and they stamped their presence on the board. For 169 points, they extremely hard to remove.

They are pretty deadly in close combat too. I have had my defiler tank Celestine before. She then fall back because she wasn't gonna kill the defiler anytime soon and a few lucky hits from the defiler may kill her instead. I had my defiler charged by a death company blood angels captain who was the warlord and it not only survived, it killed the captain too. This was despite that captain rocking a storm shield with a 3++

Because its close combat weapons are very high damage, so all you need is to have two hits go through and it would kill most characters. I am loving that my defilers are relevant again!

I slapped Las's on mine, just because of the magic range of 48". I took that and a Havoc, so I could basically use it as an artillery piece in the far, far backline.

I tried it before too. But that makes them kinda more expensive because the twin lascannon is 50 points. And yet, their BS is 4+ whereas CSM can easily get BS 3+ for shooting. Since we are paying the same 50 points for 2 lascannons be it on a defiler or on a Havoc. It kinda seems like a more inefficient choice to get it on a Defiler.

Also, the defiler is pushing forward anyway, so it doesn't really need that 48 range.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also, the defiler is pushing forward anyway, so it doesn't really need that 48 range.

And that's where the catch 22 is. You want to push it into melee, but that makes it hitting on a 5+ the entire walk up. Where as if you sit it in the back, you can just shoot all game without worry.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also, the defiler is pushing forward anyway, so it doesn't really need that 48 range.

And that's where the catch 22 is. You want to push it into melee, but that makes it hitting on a 5+ the entire walk up. Where as if you sit it in the back, you can just shoot all game without worry.

If you're just going to make it sit back and shoot why not take Havocs instead?

No need to beat a dead horse that the defiler is odd. The best use, in my experience, has been as a line anchor. I never count on it's shooting other than a nice to have an instead use it as a fatty to counter attack. It's far more survivable than a helbrute for roughly the same cost. I leave it with just a reaper and a power scourge which is a decent unit for 167 points.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also, the defiler is pushing forward anyway, so it doesn't really need that 48 range.

And that's where the catch 22 is. You want to push it into melee, but that makes it hitting on a 5+ the entire walk up. Where as if you sit it in the back, you can just shoot all game without worry.

If you're just going to make it sit back and shoot why not take Havocs instead?

Havocs can't take a stratagem that allows them to reroll literally every wound and hit missed in the shootin'.

but havocs can get Slaanesh mark and fire twice+votlw, they are deadly.

Shooting with a defiler should always be treated as angry bonus noises as it trundles forwards to smash things. Defilers are cheap giant bullet sponges with really big can-opener hands (not much else can wound T8 on a 2+). Warptime them up the field, feed them daemonforge in combat, or have an apostle nearby and they'll shred whatever they get their mitts on.

What is the viability of 5 man chaos marine units with either a lascannon or missile launcher in the unit?

 McGibs wrote:
Shooting with a defiler should always be treated as angry bonus noises as it trundles forwards to smash things. Defilers are cheap giant bullet sponges with really big can-opener hands (not much else can wound T8 on a 2+). Warptime them up the field, feed them daemonforge in combat, or have an apostle nearby and they'll shred whatever they get their mitts on.

with all the powerful things chaos can warptime you think someone warptime a defiler? thank God there are players using warptime for that, stay away Mortarion, Magnus, CaC termies, big blobs of berserkers and so on
Defiler is decent for his basic cost, but usually do nothing against semi-competitive/competitive lists, havocs with 3 las cannons marked slaanesh deals tons of more damage, votlw on them plus slaanesh stratagems and you have 6 hits wounding almost anything on 2+ -3ap and 6d6 potential damage, use mathammer if you want and you ll see....make them alpha legion put in cover then let me know which unit last longer.

daemonix wrote:
What is the viability of 5 man chaos marine units with either a lascannon or missile launcher in the unit?

Frontline Gaming swear by bois as anti-alpha-strike zoners. I can see the appeal: allow your other units to move around the board while keeping your opponent exactly where you want them by denying deep strike in overlapping bubbles. Plus you have a heavy weapon plinking wounds off gak from afar. It's not a bad strategy at all and helps fill out a potential second Battalion.

It's not chaos, but I run my Salamander Space Marines this way, at least 4 squads of 5 men with 1 laz cannon or missile launcher, I normally give the srg a combi flamer for charge protection as well. They work well for me as anti deep strike area denial, protecting my tanks or what have you from the dreaded deep strike and fire. No Trygons filled with genestealers popping up around here! Lol.

As a World Eaters player I know the pain of being surrounded by the enemy and picked off. I've had Grey Knights and Nids surround me with their bs!

Anyways, I'm warming up to the idea of a second Battalion of backfield bois just to ensure I control more of the battlefield.

I am liking the idea of a squad of havocs, 10 man, with 4 heavy bolters for a semi-forward fire position. They should be cheap enough to not worry if they die but have enough firepower to help support whatever needs it. What's the consensus on this for anti horde? Cost too much? It would be vs genestealers and the like.