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 Desubot wrote:
Welp looks like my warp talons wont be deepstriking anytime soon.

weaksauce.

Good thing i just got 10 painted up and them warptiming in super buffed was my game plan☹

 Desubot wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I play 3 different Black Legion lists.

- Cultists and Obliterators
- Noise Marines jumping out of a Kharybdis Assault Claw
- Lascannon spam (25 lascannons on Preds / CSM / Helbrutes)

One of them got a lot better with the FAQ. Free round of shooting, no one is charging my CSMs until turn 2 (turn 3 for most units.)

Not that it was bad before. Just that I don't see the hard counter anymore, other than getting outshot by Tau. I used to be afraid of Death Company, but that's not as much of an issue.

well sure if you play a chaos gunline now ur pretty strong no one can charge you until turn2 and now DS units cant move in any way, no warptime no swarmlord ability and so on. but anything become pretty boring.

Hypex Reavers move+advance 28" - hell, even Slaanesh Maulerfiends can still charge T1. If you haven't played with deepstriking/infiltrating CQC units till now, you probably know how to charge a gunline T1.

Renagade bikes and various other units can easily get t1 charges.

kinda sad on the warp talons. deep striking to deny overwatch was their only real sthick. and without warp time its kinda meh. (otherwise its ok for a jump pack unit with a butt load of lightning claws just a shame their main niche got weaker)

I line up units in the back of my deployment zone and screen them with Cultists at a distance of about half an inch.

Sticking out 4 inches max, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have a chance to reach them, not much else. Other than the Predators, a single unit has at most 2 Lascannons. So it's not like anyone is taking down the gunline.

Salcomine wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Welp looks like my warp talons wont be deepstriking anytime soon.

weaksauce.

Good thing i just got 10 painted up and them warptiming in super buffed was my game plan☹

In a similar boat: just got 5 converted WE terminators built and painted with the intention of having them charge in with warptime and prescience to make them, well, good.

Hmm, Im actually pleased I am unaffected by alot of these "Nerfs" Never used Warptime, or Bloodletter Bombs. Always felt Poxwalker Farm took too much investment and momentum. Only used Tide of Traitors once per game anyways due to CP restrictions I did enjoy the Stackable FNP IW Prince, but Ive moved on from that build a while ago in favor of CD Princes and their Locus. I do have a Gnarlmaw, but I havent painted it, nor played it yet. The 50 pts did seem like a steal. Now it IS just a better Aegis Defense Line. Dont use Soup since why lose Locus/Tactics and Strategems.

Now I do like to Alpha Oblits with a Nurgle Herald, but about half my games I forget to deploy them Turn 1 by mistake anyhow.

And with my usual Double Battalion lists, I no longer have to choose between spending CP on Tide of Traitors, Revolting regeneration, or a second Endless Cacophany. I daresay my list might have even improved.

I'm ready pleased with the ability to take chainswords on my chosen now. A couple of units with bolters, chainswords and the Icon of wrath will work really nicely in a Renegades army. Taking power weapons on them is a total trap though, as Berzerkers as still far far better in close combat.

Double power scourge Helbrutes are freaking whirlwinds of death! 11 attacks because of battering onslaught.

My terminator plasma warptime bomb got nerfed so that it's turn 2 onwards but honestly it's not that bad. Now I'll just take Delightful Agonies instead of warptime and shrug off anything that gets thrown at them.

I'm very seriously considering a Spartan now. For 120 points more than a Land Raider you get +15 transport, 4 extra lascannons and you will never die. Terminators probably aren't strong enough to bother but 20 berzerkers with HQ support sounds pretty nice.

Summoning gets more interesting too now because of the soup and deep strike changes. Now you can get your bloodletter or horror bombs in the same turn as someone who deep strikes them.

While this FAQ hurts us a bit overall it's a big buff. We can still soup well and lots of other armies got nerfed heavily.

Trying to figger what kind of list is viable now. Think I might run:

Iron warriors batt:

Troops: 480 pts, all Slaanesh

40x cultists
40x cultists
40x cultists

Heavy support: 585

3x3 obliterators

Hq:

Daemon prince, warlord, cold and bitter, elixir, axe, delightful agonies, warp bolter: 159

Sorcerer: 108, warp time, prescience

Spearhead:

Dorito dread, butcher, havoc, veil, twin hvy bolter: 288

Quad bolted rapier x 2

Las cannon havocs

Chaos lord hq

Thoughts on viability?

I know a few of my local gamers will be unhappy to hear the Fire Frenzy Stratagem no longer work on Leviathans.

I always knew that the GW Stratagems were not made with FW units in mind... Just look at the Dark Eldar Tantalus. With the Dark Creed Character killing Stratagem, you can turn a transport boat into a 12 shot, 36" range, S8 AP-3 D2 sniper rifle.

 lindsay40k wrote:
@the.cobb - Warp Talons want Warptime and/or Mark of Khorne + allied Herald (re-roll charges) to be effective. A really sneaky trick is to take two Sorcerers; one has Warptime, the o5er doesn’t. Have them a distance apart; your opponent assumes the WTime one is going to tag in the WTals and respond to that, then in your turn you use the Familiar Stratagem to give the other one Warptime and hit an area with less DTW coverage and screening that’s not prepared for WTals

A Daemons Patrol with Karanak and some cheap Bloodletters is a great source of Khornate Daemon Marines re-rolling charges. (I think a Decimator can take a Butcher Cannon? Great unit) Can even make him your Warlord for an additional Morale hit, though he’s not difficult to kill.

You’ll be wanting to hit several units a turn with multiple morale attacks, as focussing on one can be dealt with via Insane Bravery. Also, try to approach your morale sapping ability as a bonus, rather than a primary attack, as Tyranids and similar will laugh it off :(

@Lindsay40k thanks for the trick I'll remember that. I think I'll go the warptime route; if my local gaming group ends up being super competitive I might look at mixing in some daemon fun, but at the moment my social group aren't into hyper-tuned lists so sticking closer to the fluff I want to focus on is okay.

I'll remember to hit multiple units; that's a great point. I had built a list based on an alpha strike but I might rejig to go for chaff clearing and multiple moral overload.

Gonna mathhammer some ideas for taking out synapse creatures to deal with Tyranids, I'll have a good read of the Tyranids codex and their tactics thread for some ideas. At this point I had thought of maybe grabbing a few units of renegade mauraders with sniper rifles just to mess with things. Don't really expect them to do a great deal though; 3 units is only 0.666 sniper mortal wounds and comes in over 100pts for 5-model units. So maybe something to do for fun and flavour.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas

the.cobb wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
@the.cobb - Warp Talons want Warptime and/or Mark of Khorne + allied Herald (re-roll charges) to be effective. A really sneaky trick is to take two Sorcerers; one has Warptime, the o5er doesn’t. Have them a distance apart; your opponent assumes the WTime one is going to tag in the WTals and respond to that, then in your turn you use the Familiar Stratagem to give the other one Warptime and hit an area with less DTW coverage and screening that’s not prepared for WTals

A Daemons Patrol with Karanak and some cheap Bloodletters is a great source of Khornate Daemon Marines re-rolling charges. (I think a Decimator can take a Butcher Cannon? Great unit) Can even make him your Warlord for an additional Morale hit, though he’s not difficult to kill.

You’ll be wanting to hit several units a turn with multiple morale attacks, as focussing on one can be dealt with via Insane Bravery. Also, try to approach your morale sapping ability as a bonus, rather than a primary attack, as Tyranids and similar will laugh it off :(

@Lindsay40k thanks for the trick I'll remember that. I think I'll go the warptime route; if my local gaming group ends up being super competitive I might look at mixing in some daemon fun, but at the moment my social group aren't into hyper-tuned lists so sticking closer to the fluff I want to focus on is okay.

I'll remember to hit multiple units; that's a great point. I had built a list based on an alpha strike but I might rejig to go for chaff clearing and multiple moral overload.

Gonna mathhammer some ideas for taking out synapse creatures to deal with Tyranids, I'll have a good read of the Tyranids codex and their tactics thread for some ideas. At this point I had thought of maybe grabbing a few units of renegade mauraders with sniper rifles just to mess with things. Don't really expect them to do a great deal though; 3 units is only 0.666 sniper mortal wounds and comes in over 100pts for 5-model units. So maybe something to do for fun and flavour.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas

Unfortunately, now you can't warptime thing that just arrived from reserved, so warp talons, raptors, terminators, etc, are all equally SOoL.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I know a few of my local gamers will be unhappy to hear the Fire Frenzy Stratagem no longer work on Leviathans.

I always knew that the GW Stratagems were not made with FW units in mind... Just look at the Dark Eldar Tantalus. With the Dark Creed Character killing Stratagem, you can turn a transport boat into a 12 shot, 36" range, S8 AP-3 D2 sniper rifle.

It didn't work because it referenced the Helbrute datasheet rather than the Helbrute keyword. It was pretty clear. Stratagems DO work on FW units just like they would on GW ones, just not in this instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VoidSempai wrote:

the.cobb wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
@the.cobb - Warp Talons want Warptime and/or Mark of Khorne + allied Herald (re-roll charges) to be effective. A really sneaky trick is to take two Sorcerers; one has Warptime, the o5er doesn’t. Have them a distance apart; your opponent assumes the WTime one is going to tag in the WTals and respond to that, then in your turn you use the Familiar Stratagem to give the other one Warptime and hit an area with less DTW coverage and screening that’s not prepared for WTals

A Daemons Patrol with Karanak and some cheap Bloodletters is a great source of Khornate Daemon Marines re-rolling charges. (I think a Decimator can take a Butcher Cannon? Great unit) Can even make him your Warlord for an additional Morale hit, though he’s not difficult to kill.

You’ll be wanting to hit several units a turn with multiple morale attacks, as focussing on one can be dealt with via Insane Bravery. Also, try to approach your morale sapping ability as a bonus, rather than a primary attack, as Tyranids and similar will laugh it off :(

@Lindsay40k thanks for the trick I'll remember that. I think I'll go the warptime route; if my local gaming group ends up being super competitive I might look at mixing in some daemon fun, but at the moment my social group aren't into hyper-tuned lists so sticking closer to the fluff I want to focus on is okay.

I'll remember to hit multiple units; that's a great point. I had built a list based on an alpha strike but I might rejig to go for chaff clearing and multiple moral overload.

Gonna mathhammer some ideas for taking out synapse creatures to deal with Tyranids, I'll have a good read of the Tyranids codex and their tactics thread for some ideas. At this point I had thought of maybe grabbing a few units of renegade mauraders with sniper rifles just to mess with things. Don't really expect them to do a great deal though; 3 units is only 0.666 sniper mortal wounds and comes in over 100pts for 5-model units. So maybe something to do for fun and flavour.

Anyway, thanks for the ideas

Unfortunately, now you can't warptime thing that just arrived from reserved, so warp talons, raptors, terminators, etc, are all equally SOoL.

You can start raptors on the board. Warp talons are probably too expensive though unless you can safely keep them outside line of sight.

Good thing I hadn't built the warp talons yet. Gonna start with the raptors, might buy some more this week.

How do i move forward now?

Nurgle daemons battalio
Prince w/warpbolter, virulent blessing
Powxbringer w/ fleshy abundance

2x3 nurglings
20 plaguebearers w/ banner, horn

Fortification
Feculent gnarlmaw

Renegades battalion
Chaos lord on bike, plasma, lightning claw
Sorcerer w/ jumpack, force axe, warptime, priecenece

3x10 cultists

3 bikes w combi flamer, 2 flamers
10 warptalons

Defiler, autocannon, scourge
Maulerfiend
3 oblits

Idea was to drop a castle around the gnarlmaw with plaguebearers, oblits, talons, sorcerer, herald and prince. Buff the talons with warptime, virulent blessing, maybe priecenece. Then pop vetrans for +2 to wound and 2 damage on a 4, 3damage on 5,6 rerolling cause of lightning claws. Usually able to pop a tank or 2 and tie up as many other units as possible.

With the new faq and beta the whole team comes in turn 2 and the talons cant hide behind a ring of plaguebearers. So i am forced to hit the closest unit rather than jumping over screens. Seems like a pretty big gamble now with the 9" charge into a screen vs the 6" charge of casting warptime and getting toncharge whatever i want. I am at a loss of how to rebuild my army. The whole army got nerfed by 16-25% losing turn one deepstrike/ turn 1 protection from shooting.

*edit* I cant read, you still need half your stuff on the board, the power level thing is just an additional restriction. Alpha Legion is going to be even more popular than it already is though. Ignoring deepstrike turn 2 limitations with its stratagem and -1 to hit keeping it safer from ranged opponents taking less chaff and more artillery. I see a lot of groaning about that -1 hit army rule, and can understand the annoyance when it’s stacked with other stuff like fliers, but honestly it’s pretty important in an even more long range driven meta.

The question I have is, what are everyone's thoughts that has them completely panicing and abandoning the idea of deep striking as a tactic? I ask because I feel there's a point I'm missing perhaps. I get the fact that my transports and units starting on the board will be in a more precarious situation given that I have to wait longer to bring in my DS'ing distractions, which sucks. As someone who plays an assault army and deep strikes units in on their first and second turns, I'm not a fan of the beta changes to deep striking naturally. I've never used alpha striking as a tactic to end a game as quick as I can, I've used it as a screen to allow my transports to move up the board. With that in mind I do see a lot of people that are completely abandoning units and tactics. I do still see utility in the fact that I have to wait until turn 2 to deep strike (and to be honest, there were some games where I found myself better suited for a turn 2 deep strike). What predictions does the community have regarding reactions from other armies and rosters? I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to completely abandon ship on my deep striking units and tactics..

 Badablack wrote:
So the Alpha Legion stratagem isn’t affected by this, correct? And deepstriking has been changed to require 50% of total power level as the ratio instead of units?

If I’m taking a superheavy like a Lord of Skulls, the changes almost resemble a buff. That’s a lot of infiltrating Berzerkers and cultists without much I need to deploy in my starting zone. 2 battalions and a superheavy Detachment is 13 command points; A rhino with HQs and a CSM squad behind the superheavy, then about 900 points of whatever feels right to deploy up in their face.

Its 50% units AND 50% power level.

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a terrifying deathstar, best taken in large units that are uniquely able to bypass screens and entangle large swathes of the enemy, able to work in any daemonkin list

Post spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a niche gimmick unit, best taken in MSU with MoK to have as many chances as possible to execute a charge before they get blown away as quickly as footslogging Berzerkers

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are really good. Really, really good. Why are you even bothering with a different Legion, other than for things like Renegade Bikers rushdown?

Post spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are now uniquely positioned to employ tested and proven alpha strike strats, in a metagame in which 90% of anti-alpha strike measures are going to stand down

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is essentially a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem

Post spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is a dropship that can function as a guided nuke after it has done the job of delivering units, costed as a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem

Pre spring 18 FAQ: summoning is gimmicky rubbish useless for anything other than recouping unused Horror splitting reinforcement points to reinforces a failing screen

Post spring 18 FAQ: summoning has two gimmicky uses

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are remarkably cheap CP sources

Post spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are incredibly cheap CP sources

 lindsay40k wrote:
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a terrifying deathstar, best taken in large units that are uniquely able to bypass screens and entangle large swathes of the enemy, able to work in any daemonkin list

Post spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a niche gimmick unit, best taken in MSU with MoK to have as many chances as possible to execute a charge before they get blown away as quickly as footslogging Berzerkers

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are really good. Really, really good. Why are you even bothering with a different Legion, other than for things like Renegade Bikers rushdown?

Post spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are now uniquely positioned to employ tested and proven alpha strike strats, in a metagame in which 90% of anti-alpha strike measures are going to stand down

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is essentially a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem

Post spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is a dropship that can function as a guided nuke after it has done the job of delivering units, costed as a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem

Pre spring 18 FAQ: summoning is gimmicky rubbish useless for anything other than recouping unused Horror splitting reinforcement points to reinforces a failing screen

Post spring 18 FAQ: summoning has two gimmicky uses

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are remarkably cheap CP sources

Post spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are incredibly cheap CP sources

Exalted.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Pre spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a terrifying deathstar, best taken in large units that are uniquely able to bypass screens and entangle large swathes of the enemy, able to work in any daemonkin list

Post spring 18 FAQ: Warp Talons are a niche gimmick unit, best taken in MSU with MoK to have as many chances as possible to execute a charge before they get blown away as quickly as footslogging Berzerkers

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are really good. Really, really good. Why are you even bothering with a different Legion, other than for things like Renegade Bikers rushdown?

Post spring 18 FAQ: Alpha Legion are now uniquely positioned to employ tested and proven alpha strike strats, in a metagame in which 90% of anti-alpha strike measures are going to stand down

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is essentially a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem

Post spring 18 FAQ: Kharybdis is a dropship that can function as a guided nuke after it has done the job of delivering units, costed as a guided nuke that incidentally drops off units en route to causing horrific mayhem

Pre spring 18 FAQ: summoning is gimmicky rubbish useless for anything other than recouping unused Horror splitting reinforcement points to reinforces a failing screen

Post spring 18 FAQ: summoning has two gimmicky uses

Pre spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are remarkably cheap CP sources

Post spring 18 FAQ: Cultists and Brimstones are incredibly cheap CP sources

You forgot that Horrors and Bloodletters went from effective ways of clearing out chaff and distracting your opponent before your other assault units made it up the board, to situational counter attack units.

eternalxfl wrote:
The question I have is, what are everyone's thoughts that has them completely panicing and abandoning the idea of deep striking as a tactic? I ask because I feel there's a point I'm missing perhaps. I get the fact that my transports and units starting on the board will be in a more precarious situation given that I have to wait longer to bring in my DS'ing distractions, which sucks. As someone who plays an assault army and deep strikes units in on their first and second turns, I'm not a fan of the beta changes to deep striking naturally. I've never used alpha striking as a tactic to end a game as quick as I can, I've used it as a screen to allow my transports to move up the board. With that in mind I do see a lot of people that are completely abandoning units and tactics. I do still see utility in the fact that I have to wait until turn 2 to deep strike (and to be honest, there were some games where I found myself better suited for a turn 2 deep strike). What predictions does the community have regarding reactions from other armies and rosters? I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to completely abandon ship on my deep striking units and tactics..

My thoughts are that it's a beta rule. Ultimately, the decision whether or not to keep it will probably have something to do with tournament organizers.

Tell tournament organizers not to implement the beta rule. Tell them you don't like it and believe it will cripple your enjoyment of the game. If enough people make a fuss, GW will get rid of it.

In a way, it's nice that GW is actually playtesting changes like this on a mass scale. Give them points for trying.

This change to deep strike makes the weaker armies weaker and the stronger armies stronger. Armies that were unplayable until this edition are going to be hit hard. The game is not better off by crippling armies.

Most likely they will tweak the rule a tiny bit, most likely by saying if you deepstrike and move again you can’t charge as that seems to be what most people are worried about. I don’t know about many units that deepstruck and moved to be able to shoot. Only thousand sons with flamers.

I think they wanted to deepstrike charging to become relatively risky affairs and only have rerrolls be the way to mitigate that.

I’m the end I don’t think it crippled armies, you’ll have to change the way you play and it wil lead to players who use deepstrike to have really durable units on the board to start.

Having said that this really helps tau

With the nerf to warptime anyone else thinking of ripping off some claws and teaching their warp talons to shoot?

Really disappointing

 techsoldaten wrote:

eternalxfl wrote:
The question I have is, what are everyone's thoughts that has them completely panicing and abandoning the idea of deep striking as a tactic? I ask because I feel there's a point I'm missing perhaps. I get the fact that my transports and units starting on the board will be in a more precarious situation given that I have to wait longer to bring in my DS'ing distractions, which sucks. As someone who plays an assault army and deep strikes units in on their first and second turns, I'm not a fan of the beta changes to deep striking naturally. I've never used alpha striking as a tactic to end a game as quick as I can, I've used it as a screen to allow my transports to move up the board. With that in mind I do see a lot of people that are completely abandoning units and tactics. I do still see utility in the fact that I have to wait until turn 2 to deep strike (and to be honest, there were some games where I found myself better suited for a turn 2 deep strike). What predictions does the community have regarding reactions from other armies and rosters? I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not going to completely abandon ship on my deep striking units and tactics..

My thoughts are that it's a beta rule. Ultimately, the decision whether or not to keep it will probably have something to do with tournament organizers.

Tell tournament organizers not to implement the beta rule. Tell them you don't like it and believe it will cripple your enjoyment of the game. If enough people make a fuss, GW will get rid of it.

In a way, it's nice that GW is actually playtesting changes like this on a mass scale. Give them points for trying.

This change to deep strike makes the weaker armies weaker and the stronger armies stronger. Armies that were unplayable until this edition are going to be hit hard. The game is not better off by crippling armies.

Agreed. I personally don't like the changes, but it also felt very powerful to be able to deep strike and charge on turn 1. Whether the changes are good or bad, the most notable thing for me is GW's new attitude. I say new because I haven't played Warhammer in a couple years and so this is the first time I've ever seen them post an errata that clearly said "are these changes good? Tell us what you think."

demontalons wrote:
Most likely they will tweak the rule a tiny bit, most likely by saying if you deepstrike and move again you can’t charge as that seems to be what most people are worried about. I don’t know about many units that deepstruck and moved to be able to shoot. Only thousand sons with flamers.

I think they wanted to deepstrike charging to become relatively risky affairs and only have rerrolls be the way to mitigate that.

I’m the end I don’t think it crippled armies, you’ll have to change the way you play and it wil lead to players who use deepstrike to have really durable units on the board to start.

Having said that this really helps tau

So the need to place really durable units on the board to start is the situation I'm looking at now. As a World Eaters and Khorne Daemons player, what are my options? I imagine some unit(s) with high toughness, invuln save, to hit modifiers to start. Bonus points for something with ranged firepower to start poking holes in enemy screens. I've already got 2 rhino's on the board full of berserkers, those have, and will continue to get nuked turns 1 and 2 even with smoke deployed. What recommendations to players have to endure the first 2 turns of shooting?

For WE, I'm thinking Quad Heavy bolters for clearing chaff and maybe a Lord of Skulls for drawing fire.

In light of the new FAQ, I'm gonna drop my Terminator bomb and maybe cut back on the Bloodletter bomb.

So I have been thinking with the nerf to the DS, Alpha legion our Oblits may seem like a better option. So here is my thoughts. you Forward op your 40 man cultist bomb and then forward op your 2-3 oblit units in cover but in range to do some damage. granted this is on the basis that you are going first but at the same time 1+ save oblits are going to be hard to kill.

To be hardcore raw, can we even mix daemons and csm? The faction keyword in the daemon codex is “allegiance” in the csm book “mark of chaos”. Sure the options are predetermined but are allegiance Khorne identical to mark: Khorne (as per faq simply naming two things the same isn’t enough, they must share chapter, legion, Forgeworld whatever)? The reason I’m asking is that the faq text critiques the daemon/csm mix and guard/space marine mix and then makes the latter illegal. Is non spawning daemons for csm still an option?

For my WE + Daemons, I'll be playing around with Renegades to create a "tough" deployment zone. I haven't completely given up on my Bloodletter Bombs because the very idea of them is enough to dictate certain moves from my opponent and they're still pretty cheaper, "cheaper" still due to the increased CP I'll be getting. Thinking three battalions, WE + Daemons + Renegades. Renegades have some long / mid range shooting, WE in Rhinos, Flesh Hound screen, Bloodletters deep strike in. Just have to get more bodies on the table than my opponent can shoot off turn one.

Lucky for me my regular opponent is Tau so I'll be able to cut my teeth on the hardest jawbreaker possible.

Gremmer wrote:
To be hardcore raw, can we even mix daemons and csm? The faction keyword in the daemon codex is “allegiance” in the csm book “mark of chaos”. Sure the options are predetermined but are allegiance Khorne identical to mark: Khorne (as per faq simply naming two things the same isn’t enough, they must share chapter, legion, Forgeworld whatever)? The reason I’m asking is that the faq text critiques the daemon/csm mix and guard/space marine mix and then makes the latter illegal. Is non spawning daemons for csm still an option?

Maybe I misread it, but what I thought it said was that what was now illegal was the mixing of CSM and Guard, not SM and guard.

 andysonic1 wrote:
For my WE + Daemons, I'll be playing around with Renegades to create a "tough" deployment zone. I haven't completely given up on my Bloodletter Bombs because the very idea of them is enough to dictate certain moves from my opponent and they're still pretty cheaper, "cheaper" still due to the increased CP I'll be getting. Thinking three battalions, WE + Daemons + Renegades. Renegades have some long / mid range shooting, WE in Rhinos, Flesh Hound screen, Bloodletters deep strike in. Just have to get more bodies on the table than my opponent can shoot off turn one.

Lucky for me my regular opponent is Tau so I'll be able to cut my teeth on the hardest jawbreaker possible.

What options long / mid range shooting options do Renegades have that WE don't?

Gremmer wrote:
To be hardcore raw, can we even mix daemons and csm? The faction keyword in the daemon codex is “allegiance” in the csm book “mark of chaos”. Sure the options are predetermined but are allegiance Khorne identical to mark: Khorne (as per faq simply naming two things the same isn’t enough, they must share chapter, legion, Forgeworld whatever)? The reason I’m asking is that the faq text critiques the daemon/csm mix and guard/space marine mix and then makes the latter illegal. Is non spawning daemons for csm still an option?

As far as I can tell, this lays out our options:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4170/727523.page#9931502