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First and last warning for this thread - posting flamebait like "Americans lack basic empathy" will get you suspended.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Do I need to explain why conflating Nazis, the IRA and Jihadis doesn't work?

I don't think that's what's happening.

And I think the futility of modern radical terrorism can be a maddening aspect that conventional warfare doesn't have. Britain could've capitulated before Nazi Germany. That's a maddening option in and of itself, and the British showed great resolve in not taking it. But how the hell do you even capitulate before radical islamist terrorism? In what scenario could enough bombings, enough knife attacks, enough crazy lone wolf compel the entirety of Western civilisation to convert to the most extreme of interpretation of a religion which, 70 years ago, was barely less alien and exotic than Maoritanga?

The aim is impossible and ridicule, and the means are barbaric and degrading. It's a pretty perfect representation of absolute nihilism.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'd much prefer they just blow him up, even if he is still alive, than risk a Police Officer's life.

Of course that means one dead guy. Getting perpetrator alive is preferred solution though. Isolate him and see if you can get him dead first. The fact he hadn\t already blown himself up says it might be possible.

There must be some thought leaders promoting and ultimately responsible for these crimes. It seems to me that the UK intelligence apparatus must get smart enough to identify these individuals and deal with them accordingly. Free speech should not be a shield for inciting people to murder.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Do I need to explain why conflating Nazis, the IRA and Jihadis doesn't work?

I don't think that's what's happening.

And I think the futility of modern radical terrorism can be a maddening aspect that conventional warfare doesn't have. Britain could've capitulated before Nazi Germany. That's a maddening option in and of itself, and the British showed great resolve in not taking it. But how the hell do you even capitulate before radical islamist terrorism? In what scenario could enough bombings, enough knife attacks, enough crazy lone wolf compel the entirety of Western civilisation to convert to the most extreme of interpretation of a religion which, 70 years ago, was barely less alien and exotic than Maoritanga?

The aim is impossible and ridicule, and the means are barbaric and degrading. It's a pretty perfect representation of absolute nihilism.

Absolutely. These "men" are just inflicting their hate and rage on us, and are revelling in the hate and rage they get in return. There's no realistic political aim, even the IRA at their most despicable had a plausible aim, but these modern "terrorists" have an aim that is so completely unachievable that it might as well not even exist.

All we can do is beef up, and properly resource, our internal security, be vigilant and stoical, and carry on with our lives.

tneva82 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'd much prefer they just blow him up, even if he is still alive, than risk a Police Officer's life.

Of course that means one dead guy. Getting perpetrator alive is preferred solution though. Isolate him and see if you can get him dead first. The fact he hadn\t already blown himself up says it might be possible.

Of course alive nets you far more information.
But do not risk peoples lives without need to do so.

If it can be fine but if not, I cannot be done.

 jasper76 wrote:
There must be some thought leaders promoting and ultimately responsible for these crimes. It seems to me that the UK intelligence apparatus must get smart enough to identify these individuals and deal with them accordingly.

To give them their due, the UK intelligence services are one of, if not the, most respected such institutions on the planet.

Free speech should not be a shield for inciting people to murder.

As it goes, free speech is not universal in the UK, as it is in some democracies. That may be a good or bad thing, depending on your perspective, but you aren't free to incite hatred or murder here. People do and get away with it, obviously, but there are laws there to pursue them.

All I can think about are the victims. And when and where the next one is going to happen. My brothers friend was in that area at the time and he hasn't heard anything from him and he's going crazy with worry.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
All I can think about are the victims. And when and where the next one is going to happen. My brothers friend was in that area at the time and he hasn't heard anything from him and he's going crazy with worry.

After reading so many first hand accounts on reddit, I don't know what to think or feel, This can't go on, it can't. The death toll at the time of writing this is 7 with a further 48 injured.

Attackers shot dead by police. They were wearing dummy explosive vests hence the controlled explosions.

Extremist guides often instruct followers to commit knife attacks or use vehicles as making explosives takes some expertise.

They also instruct on using fake vests in order to provoke LE shooting.

I suppose the good news is that the attackers have been shot dead, so that will save the taxpayer some money, as we won't need expensive trials.

Good riddance to them.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I suppose the good news is that the attackers have been shot dead, so that will save the taxpayer some money, as we won't need expensive trials.

Good riddance to them.

I second this.

I once asked my grand-father how he survived 4 years in the trenches of the Great War.

He said you just had to carry on and do your duty.

And that's what we have to do in these tough times. Do our duty and not roll up the white flag.

when I was growing up in the 1980s, with IRA bombs going off in British cities, it seemed like it would never end, but we came through the other end.

There is always hope...

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm broken now. These attacks, all of them, are driving me to depression. I'm just gutted looking at the hopeless situation in front of us. I'm lucky. I live in Northern Ireland were this doesn't happen. I can't imagine what anyone living in London or Manchester or anywhere like that must feel like these days. How do you fight the urge to just stay indoors and give up?

You must know there are bombs and shootings frequently in Northern Ireland, they're just not targeting the general public. The IRA did much worse than these attacks.

I live in London and was in Leicester Square at the time of the attacks and didn't know anything was going on. I didn't know until I was on the train home. Frankly, everyone has jobs to go to and stuff to do and terror attacks won't change that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
Attackers shot dead by police. They were wearing dummy explosive vests hence the controlled explosions.

Extremist guides often instruct followers to commit knife attacks or use vehicles as making explosives takes some expertise.

They also instruct on using fake vests in order to provoke LE shooting.

The frequency of vehicle and knife attacks rather than bombings like that on the tube suggests that it's become a lot harder to acquire the materials and make such things covertly. But our security services don't discuss how they do this.

Yeah there's still shootings and attempted bombings here, but these car and knife attacks are something else entirely. It could happen anywhere at anytime and they'll target anyone. At least here in N.I they're more directed. Most of the people shot here are either paramilitaries themselves or prolific criminals receiving vigilante justice. It's actually more like criminal gangs fighting over drug territory. Stay out of the police and prison services, don't join the paramilitaries and don't be a serious criminal and you'll hardly encounter them.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I suppose the good news is that the attackers have been shot dead, so that will save the taxpayer some money, as we won't need expensive trials.

Good riddance to them.

I second this.

Except by doing this all you are doing is encouraging further attacks... We have to remember that these people have been hoodwinked into believing that being killed whilst killing people (that they have been hoodwinked into believing are their mortal enemy) is a "Go straight to heaven card" (not sure this is the right terminology) . As such it encourage further attacks from people that have been hoodwinked in this way because their death becomes inevitable. If you come from a poor background, in an isolated community with few propsects (that the person can see) in a world where you are bombarded with self concious messages of wealth and looks then a one way ticket to having everything you ever wanted is likely to be appealling in a twisted sort of way.

What you really want is to capture them, put them on trial and if found guilty to be put away for life. Yes it is expensive, but it sends a strong message that the glorious death they were hoping for is highly unlikely.

Ideally the terrorists should be captured for trial and so on, however the police presumably are instructed to shoot them dead as quickly as possible if they are thought to be carrying a bomb.

If the police could corner such a group in an isolated location, then probably they would try to negotiate their surrender.

@ Whirlwind

I respect your ability to argue a point without getting personal. It's a rare trait around here.

 jasper76 wrote:
There must be some thought leaders promoting and ultimately responsible for these crimes. It seems to me that the UK intelligence apparatus must get smart enough to identify these individuals and deal with them accordingly. Free speech should not be a shield for inciting people to murder.

The Saudi royals and Gulf countries (specially Qatar as far as I'm concerned) have been behind it all for a long time.

They're super duper friends with the western economic elites and monarchies, so don't expect things to change in the short term.

I'm just going to put this here, because this is how we deal with this stuff and this is why they will never win. An old friend died on the bus in Tavistock Square on 7/7, and her loss didn't stop any of us getting out there and continuing to live our lives.

The IRA and the alphabet soup of Nirthern Irish terrorists didn't win and neither will these idiots.

https://www.indy100.com/article/people-are-relating-to-this-man-and-his-pint-london-bridge-terrorism-attack-borough-market-7771861

Ace From Outer Space wrote:
The IRA and the alphabet soup of Nirthern Irish terrorists didn't win and neither will these idiots.

The IRA didn't win? They got amnesty deals, a withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland, IRA prisoners were released, and a political power sharing deal. Former members and allies of the IRA are in government or have been in government. How is that not a victory?

 jhe90 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'd much prefer they just blow him up, even if he is still alive, than risk a Police Officer's life.

Of course that means one dead guy. Getting perpetrator alive is preferred solution though. Isolate him and see if you can get him dead first. The fact he hadn\t already blown himself up says it might be possible.

Of course alive nets you far more information.
But do not risk peoples lives without need to do so.

If it can be fine but if not, I cannot be done.

But you would be happy with them just blowing those guys up. If blowing up is your first option then that's most definitely not possible to do.

As it is you would have preferred police to blow them up for sake of them having fake bomb vests. So your blow them up attitude would give dead terrorist with very little left to investigate from.

As it is you would have preferred police to blow them up for sake of them having fake bomb vests. So your blow them up attitude would give dead terrorist with very little left to investigate from.

But the Police didn't know the vests were fake until they'd carried out controlled explosions, did they?

I'd rather have a dead terrorist than a dead police man.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Ace From Outer Space wrote:
The IRA and the alphabet soup of Nirthern Irish terrorists didn't win and neither will these idiots.

The IRA didn't win? They got amnesty deals, a withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland, IRA prisoners were released, and a political power sharing deal. Former members and allies of the IRA are in government or have been in government. How is that not a victory?

Don't see a united Ireland. Do you? Do see a Northern Ireland that no
longer exports terrorism.

So no, they lost, and we all won.

Ace From Outer Space wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Ace From Outer Space wrote:
The IRA and the alphabet soup of Nirthern Irish terrorists didn't win and neither will these idiots.

The IRA didn't win? They got amnesty deals, a withdrawal of British troops from Northern Ireland, IRA prisoners were released, and a political power sharing deal. Former members and allies of the IRA are in government or have been in government. How is that not a victory?

Don't see a united Ireland. Do you? Do see a Northern Ireland that no
longer exports terrorism.

So no, they lost, and we all won.

They now have political power in Northern Ireland. It might not be a complete victory, but its definitely A victory and one step closer to achieving their goal.

Hey I hope you get them all . I was watching what was going on was going on in London. I grew up in Detroit Michigan and one thing we were all taught to be aware of your surroundings. That what the saying mean treat everywhere you go like you in Detroit. Try to be safe out there.

 Whirlwind wrote:
What you really want is to capture them, put them on trial and if found guilty to be put away for life. Yes it is expensive, but it sends a strong message that the glorious death they were hoping for is highly unlikely.

I would agree with that as well. We tried that too, with one of the 9/11 planners - but there was political opposition to giving him a trial in federal court here, and it wound up not happening, which is a shame. I don't want to get into US based specifics but generally speaking, I think the best punishment for a would-be martyr is a lifetime with the murderers, rapists, narcotics enthusiasts, and the other common criminals that fill our maximum security jails.

You're not some magical supervillain, just a criminal.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Whirlwind

I respect your ability to argue a point without getting personal. It's a rare trait around here.

Many thanks that is appreciated. I try to avoid being personal, even if at times I can be pretty blunt. I try and work on the principle that if I can't articulate a point and have to resort, for want of a better terminology, name calling then I really don't have a valid argument.

We can only really come to a solution by looking at all the arguments and trying to assess which might improve the situation (and what the drawbacks would be of each one).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


They now have political power in Northern Ireland. It might not be a complete victory, but its definitely A victory and one step closer to achieving their goal.

To an extent, however if NI society had been more inclusive to start with then we may be still in the same position (some form of power share) but without the terrorism in between.

I am generally of the view that as human beings we all have the potential to be terrorists (biologically we are not really that different from one another). It is society that brings out the worst in us. As an animal once we are backed into a corner then generally the response will be to 'fight' because there is no other option. When all options are closed to a group of people, generally isolated then there is a risk that the only way they feel they can get their voices across is by being violent because at that point people take notice. What we must always try and avoid is the response that backs people into an even tighter corner as the result inevitably will be even more aggression.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

As it is you would have preferred police to blow them up for sake of them having fake bomb vests. So your blow them up attitude would give dead terrorist with very little left to investigate from.

But the Police didn't know the vests were fake until they'd carried out controlled explosions, did they?

I'd rather have a dead terrorist than a dead police man.

General training is to treat any bomb, gun or threat as genuine until proven otherwise.

Likewise as stated above the order of day seems to be end any threat quickly and directly.
If they think they got a bomb or such they don,t sit about, and don,t worry about taking them alive if public lives in potential danger.

nfe wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
There must be some thought leaders promoting and ultimately responsible for these crimes. It seems to me that the UK intelligence apparatus must get smart enough to identify these individuals and deal with them accordingly.

To give them their due, the UK intelligence services are one of, if not the, most respected such institutions on the planet.

Free speech should not be a shield for inciting people to murder.

As it goes, free speech is not universal in the UK, as it is in some democracies. That may be a good or bad thing, depending on your perspective, but you aren't free to incite hatred or murder here. People do and get away with it, obviously, but there are laws there to pursue them.

Laws only effect those who choose to be subject to them. The savages roaming the UK and perpetrating the attacks choose to be subject to another law. Those people should be made to live somewhere else, and telling them so should not be considered hate law. The subjects of the UK have hog tied themselves.