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I don't see the errata to brotherhood of sorcerers changing the 6" range bump to smite to not adding 1 to the warp charge number.

 heckler wrote:
I don't see the errata to brotherhood of sorcerers changing the 6" range bump to smite to not adding 1 to the warp charge number.

its in the Big FAQ not TS FAQ

Has anyone else tried the t1 smashface tsons list?

Basically you run

Deamon prince warlord w/ warptime and aetherstride trait.
Tzaangors
3 x helldrakes

T1 the deamon prince rushes forward, advaces, warp times, and can still charge. On average your getting 30" movement before charging.

Tzaangors get dmc'ed to a striking position 9" away from an enemy line. Using the brayhorn you can get an 8" charge off pretty easily.

The 3 helldrakes are taken because their incredible movement allows them to just move 30" before anything else happens.

This gives us 5 turn 1 charging units. Bonus points for allying in some Red corsair cultists and chaos marines to red tide / tide of traitors for 2 more potential t1 pressure.

Heldrakes are pretty terrible. They can easily charge turn 1, but they don't kill much when they get there, and are quite easy to kill if your opponent goes first.

The Tzaangor Bomb turn 1 is a tried-and-true strategy. Aetherstride Prince works, but it's also serving up "Slay the Warlord" to your opponent on a platter. You can do that same trick with any Red Corsairs Daemon Prince as well, without having to use your warlord trait for it.

I know red corsairs can do it with their dp, but marines and cultists make good back up pressure, not actual pressure like tzaangors can.

I have had mild luck with 1 helldrake myself, your correct in 1 dies way to quick it you dont get t1. Thats why I was interested in 3. If you get t1 3 bale flamers + charge dmg plus 16 tzaangors and a deamon prince hitting an opponents left or right flank (whichever seems weaker) could do some serious damage. On top of all the stuff a mutalith or caster can put on one to buff it up, a demonic str hell drake isnt exactly a weak opponent for example.

But i do see where your coming from. Maybe run 2 detachments, a red corsair for the charge / dont lose slw, and extra cp on top of a tzaangor bomb could do the same thing effectively.

Idk, i just have this idea that hell drakes could be devistating in the right army. My defiler always does better in tsons for example. But maybe renegade chapters would be better

Again, it's really difficult to Heldrakes to ever be "devastating" when they can't actually kill anything effectively. Their shooting attack is mediocre and doesn't pile up enough hits to be impactful, and it has a miniscule number of attacks in close combat. Sadly, the new Lord Dischordant drinks Heldrake's milkshake. Heldrake has it's great movement speed and the fly keyword working for it, but screens are still a thing. Best case scenario would be a Heldrake flying over a screen to lock up a significant unit in close combat, but that's a pipe dream.

Whats the thinking on Enlightened these days?

Sterling191 wrote:
Whats the thinking on Enlightened these days?

I run a unit of 9 of the sky-fire ones in almost all of my lists and they are totally.............mediocre. Their fire power is in a crappy place in that the 2 St5 ap-1 D1 shots are not enough shots to really affect hoards, but not strong enough or damage enough to be a threat to vehicles (plus no VotLW as they are not infantry). So the only thing they are good at killing is really MEQ type units, and we have LOTS of ways to kill MEQ in Thousand Sons lists. Their shooting should really have been 3 St4 ap-1 D1 shots, which would have made them much better against soft infantry, which is something we need. The auto wounding is nice, but doesn't make up for the lack of damage.

Also, they are not very resilient for a 17 point model. They are T4 W2 5++. My usual opponent has storm ravens and the hurricane bolters do a number on them, and anything that does D2 or more just melts these guys. Also, they don't benefit from the cover stratagem if you go second, and they are tall and wide and trying to hide 9 of them out of sight is really difficult, and I usually play on tables with more terrain then you see on most tables at tournaments or on video battle reports. At the current point price they really really need at least a 4++, and maybe T5 (bikes get that, why not discs?). I also use a big blog of flamers, and they are similar being T4 W2 but 4++ and the difference in survival is huge.

they really should be about 11 points per model, with the bow and spear being 1 point each. That would take 9 to be just over 100 points, which is what they feel like they are worth, instead of just over 150 points.

They are not a terrible choice, just not really competitive unless it is a more friendly game. I tend to use mine as a moving screen for my DPs and Tgor sorcerers, which they usually move up, screen, do a small amount of damage somewhere, and then promptly die. I do love the model though.

I have used the spear ones, and they have the same problems, only compounded because you need to get them in combat to use them, and they rarely make it. Really, they are only good is a small squad to counter any FLYER battle role units, and even then it is rare for them to get a kill.

 xeen wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Whats the thinking on Enlightened these days?

I run a unit of 9 of the sky-fire ones in almost all of my lists and they are totally.............mediocre. Their fire power is in a crappy place in that the 2 St5 ap-1 D1 shots are not enough shots to really affect hoards, but not strong enough or damage enough to be a threat to vehicles (plus no VotLW as they are not infantry). So the only thing they are good at killing is really MEQ type units, and we have LOTS of ways to kill MEQ in Thousand Sons lists. Their shooting should really have been 3 St4 ap-1 D1 shots, which would have made them much better against soft infantry, which is something we need. The auto wounding is nice, but doesn't make up for the lack of damage.

Also, they are not very resilient for a 17 point model. They are T4 W2 5++. My usual opponent has storm ravens and the hurricane bolters do a number on them, and anything that does D2 or more just melts these guys. Also, they don't benefit from the cover stratagem if you go second, and they are tall and wide and trying to hide 9 of them out of sight is really difficult, and I usually play on tables with more terrain then you see on most tables at tournaments or on video battle reports. At the current point price they really really need at least a 4++, and maybe T5 (bikes get that, why not discs?). I also use a big blog of flamers, and they are similar being T4 W2 but 4++ and the difference in survival is huge.

they really should be about 11 points per model, with the bow and spear being 1 point each. That would take 9 to be just over 100 points, which is what they feel like they are worth, instead of just over 150 points.

They are not a terrible choice, just not really competitive unless it is a more friendly game. I tend to use mine as a moving screen for my DPs and Tgor sorcerers, which they usually move up, screen, do a small amount of damage somewhere, and then promptly die. I do love the model though.

I have used the spear ones, and they have the same problems, only compounded because you need to get them in combat to use them, and they rarely make it. Really, they are only good is a small squad to counter any FLYER battle role units, and even then it is rare for them to get a kill.

How are they for capping objectives last minute? As a MSU the 12" M seems like they would be somewhat easy to hide out of sight and then advance out to objectives.

With the disks though do they not gain the Demon keyword, which opens up some (albeit theoretical) synergies with other abilities and strategems? The Tzeench demon psyker version of VotLW seems almost tailor made for these birds.

Sterling191 wrote:
With the disks though do they not gain the Demon keyword, which opens up some (albeit theoretical) synergies with other abilities and strategems? The Tzeench demon psyker version of VotLW seems almost tailor made for these birds.

That is true. However, that spell is so much better on Flamers or Horrors. And it doesn't add to the damage for larger targets, so they still don't put out that much damage to larger models. I don't think you can use daemon stratagems on units not from Codexaemons despite the daemon key word (GW really should have used "demonic" and "daemon" keywords to clarify what can and can't be used together).

Using them for late game objective grabbers could be useful, however even with 3 they will still be tough to hide and still die easily to any decent shooting.

I will say I use 9 Enlightened with a Shaman Every game of 2k points. And With casting Presience on them plus the Shaman they are auto wounding on 4+ to hit. And hitting on 2+ even with -1 to hit units and flyers. 18 Shots with half auto wounding right off the bat, plus some additional wounds clears screens easily. They always draw fire, which lets all my other stuff to get moving. When I get first turn I am hitting my opponents line with 30 Tzanagors and a Deamon prince. So they are more focused on them then my Enlighted that can sit back on an objective and keep shooting, or go hunting small MSU units. They have never done me wrong,

Auto Wounding Tanks and Knights on a 4+ to hit (normally rerolling ones)) and forcing saves on a 4+ to most tanks really takes some wounds off early.

KnightScion wrote:
I will say I use 9 Enlightened with a Shaman Every game of 2k points. And With casting Presience on them plus the Shaman they are auto wounding on 4+ to hit. And hitting on 2+ even with -1 to hit units and flyers. 18 Shots with half auto wounding right off the bat, plus some additional wounds clears screens easily. They always draw fire, which lets all my other stuff to get moving. When I get first turn I am hitting my opponents line with 30 Tzanagors and a Deamon prince. So they are more focused on them then my Enlighted that can sit back on an objective and keep shooting, or go hunting small MSU units. They have never done me wrong,

Auto Wounding Tanks and Knights on a 4+ to hit (normally rerolling ones)) and forcing saves on a 4+ to most tanks really takes some wounds off early.

That’s pretty much how I envisioned using them. One squad gets Presience, a second Flickering Flames to screen the DP(s) as they zoom upfield and I wheel Rubrics and other units into position midfield. At less than 150 points for a full squad they’re still pretty damn expendable.

Appreciate the insight folks!

Sterling191 wrote:

KnightScion wrote:
I will say I use 9 Enlightened with a Shaman Every game of 2k points. And With casting Presience on them plus the Shaman they are auto wounding on 4+ to hit. And hitting on 2+ even with -1 to hit units and flyers. 18 Shots with half auto wounding right off the bat, plus some additional wounds clears screens easily. They always draw fire, which lets all my other stuff to get moving. When I get first turn I am hitting my opponents line with 30 Tzanagors and a Deamon prince. So they are more focused on them then my Enlighted that can sit back on an objective and keep shooting, or go hunting small MSU units. They have never done me wrong,

Auto Wounding Tanks and Knights on a 4+ to hit (normally rerolling ones)) and forcing saves on a 4+ to most tanks really takes some wounds off early.

That’s pretty much how I envisioned using them. One squad gets Presience, a second Flickering Flames to screen the DP(s) as they zoom upfield and I wheel Rubrics and other units into position midfield. At less than 150 points for a full squad they’re still pretty damn expendable.

Appreciate the insight folks!

Two squads might be good. I only have one, so having a second to threaten units could be viable. However, there still is the defense issue, and they are going to die quick to D2 weapons (like those on knights). I do like using them in most list, I just won't expect them to be on par with top units.

As every Imperium player could easily throw a Culexus in the middle of road now, i would be glad to include some Tzeentch flamers in list. Unit of 6 could be teleported with 1CP, which is also good at killing screening chaff.

How is everyone feeling post FAQ?

Well, IK taken down a peg, and as such Imperial soup.
Imperial soup also pays more for assassin splashing now, and that's nice.

Elf Soup also takes a hit with high elf spells not helping dark elfs any more (and death elf reapers being far less opressive)

Bolter dicipline is great for both rubrics and scarabs, as they pack some of the best bolters around.
Conformation that sorcerers share their perils with the squad (so you start with mooks, not the psyker himself) is nice to have.


Overall, we didn't gain much-but the biggest dogs got smaller, so by comparison we are better.

I feel bolder discipline benefits us nicely and bolters are not ideal against us so pretty much didn't become a double edged sword

I am glad we kept Bolter Discipline as that has really been helpful to me in many games with Rubrics and SoT. The change allowing us to take mortal wounds on normal Rubrics and SoT is a really big change. It makes using the sorcerer in those squads soooooo much less dangerous. There have been times I have not cast with them because of the perils risk, and now I think that it is really mitigated. <incorrect statement on DMC is removed to avoid confusion >

I really would have liked Doombolt to go down to WC8 or even 7, as now it is only really useful on Arhiman or a WL with +1 cast. Actually a few of our powers are to much WC, so any fixes on that would have been nice. Overall could have been better but I am happy. How if only we could get some new units so we have more than 3 elites and 2 fast attack choices.

We need this https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Mirrorfiend and this https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Æther_Ray

 xeen wrote:
I am glad we kept Bolter Discipline as that has really been helpful to me in many games with Rubrics and SoT. The change allowing us to take mortal wounds on normal Rubrics and SoT is a really big change. It makes using the sorcerer in those squads soooooo much less dangerous. There have been times I have not cast with them because of the perils risk, and now I think that it is really mitigated. However, I am pretty sure the change to the "arrives on the battlefield as reinforcements" now prevents us from turn 1 using the Dark Matter Crystal, which sucks.

I really would have liked Doombolt to go down to WC8 or even 7, as now it is only really useful on Arhiman or a WL with +1 cast. Actually a few of our powers are to much WC, so any fixes on that would have been nice. Overall could have been better but I am happy. How if only we could get some new units so we have more than 3 elites and 2 fast attack choices.

We need this https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Mirrorfiend and this https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Æther_Ray

Re; DM crystal. Is this confirmed and can you reference where this is in the rules? I took a peek and didn't see it

DMC is fine turn 1, please dont spread misinformation and read more carefully.

 xeen wrote:

I really would have liked Doombolt to go down to WC8 or even 7, as now it is only really useful on Arhiman or a WL with +1 cast. Actually a few of our powers are to much WC, so any fixes on that would have been nice. Overall could have been better but I am happy. How if only we could get some new units so we have more than 3 elites and 2 fast attack choices.

Our powers are honestly horrible.
I mean, doombolt is the only WC9 in the game, and it aint even that great.
Firestorm has lower expected value than a minismite
Temporal manipulation and glamour both have identical spells for other armies, except at lower WC, and better range (so our "legion tactic" basically only makes our spells the same range as others get it naturally, but at higher WC?)
And boon of mutation is memetastic, but not serious.


This leaves Weaver of Fates and the DH as our "good" spells, who are basically available to all CSM anyway, so hardly anything special there.
And technically the tzeentch discipline, but that's only available to princes, who very much rather have DH spells, as they are more useful to them. heck, tzeentch spells got enough duds among them as it is (though a few great spells)



Basically, the "update" TS needs the most is not point update, is making our spells not horrible in comparison to everyone else's.
Because what's the point of being the "magic marines", when your choice of magic is outright bad?

orkswubwub wrote:

Re; DM crystal. Is this confirmed and can you reference where this is in the rules? I took a peek and didn't see it

To confirm, we can use the DM crystal on Turn 1. The relevant language comes on page 8 of the main faq. First, the faq offers language on tactical reserves prohibiting bringing in units from reserve on turn one. Then the faq adds this clarification:

For clarity, this matched play rule does not apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during Deployment, but that use Stratagems, abilities, psychic powers etc. to be removed from the battlefield and set back up during the first or subsequent battle rounds.

Hi folks,

I’m thinking of joining the ranks of the sons. I’m coming from Admech as my other army. I’m thinking of building sons for fun but I do like tournaments too so would like to be able to do both eventually

I’m not sure what to buy however as I am in two minds what route to go down. I love the Magnus model the most. From what I gather he’s in a bit of a weird place and can be targeted and killed easily - hence he’s a liability

I like the idea of having loads of models and board presence(something different to how I played my Admech) but I imagine that playstyle would lend itself to hiding >9w characters in the chaff. Magnus probably is the odd one out there

To me he seems like he’s a bit too much for casual games, but not that attractive in competitive ones. Would that be an accurate assessment? Does anyone know a way to make him work for tournaments that doesn’t involve chucking Mortarion with him?

Ok, so when I read this

Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield

It seems to me that it says that all the rules that apply to set up on the battlefield as reinforcements applies to a unit using the DMC. One of those rules is the beta rule that does not allow units who are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements to arrive until turn 2. That is why I said that.

I read the previous post about the FAQ saying it does not apply, which I think would take precedence over the above language, but certainly GW could have been a little more clear about it. Thanks for clarifying.

Your reading that wrong. Its not this rule follows the reinforcement rules, its any other rules that normally can come into play when reinforcements are used also can effect these units.

What they are saying is if you dark matter crystal or da jump a unit from one side of the field to another you can auspex scan if they jump in within 12" as if they were reinforcements.

But they specifically say that units that start on the table and then are moved are NOT reinforcments for the turn 2 deep stike rules.

Yea I agree

The FAQ seems to state that after using DMC, the moved unit cannot move in that phase other than charge etc. So warptiming Tzangoors to get more sure charge is now out?

Or am I misreading something here?

Not misreading, you cant warptime after a DMC.

Though between a brayhorn, a command reroll and possible gaze of fate reroll-it should be reliable enough.

 DrGiggles wrote:

 xeen wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Whats the thinking on Enlightened these days?

I run a unit of 9 of the sky-fire ones in almost all of my lists and they are totally.............mediocre. Their fire power is in a crappy place in that the 2 St5 ap-1 D1 shots are not enough shots to really affect hoards, but not strong enough or damage enough to be a threat to vehicles (plus no VotLW as they are not infantry). So the only thing they are good at killing is really MEQ type units, and we have LOTS of ways to kill MEQ in Thousand Sons lists. Their shooting should really have been 3 St4 ap-1 D1 shots, which would have made them much better against soft infantry, which is something we need. The auto wounding is nice, but doesn't make up for the lack of damage.

Also, they are not very resilient for a 17 point model. They are T4 W2 5++. My usual opponent has storm ravens and the hurricane bolters do a number on them, and anything that does D2 or more just melts these guys. Also, they don't benefit from the cover stratagem if you go second, and they are tall and wide and trying to hide 9 of them out of sight is really difficult, and I usually play on tables with more terrain then you see on most tables at tournaments or on video battle reports. At the current point price they really really need at least a 4++, and maybe T5 (bikes get that, why not discs?). I also use a big blog of flamers, and they are similar being T4 W2 but 4++ and the difference in survival is huge.

they really should be about 11 points per model, with the bow and spear being 1 point each. That would take 9 to be just over 100 points, which is what they feel like they are worth, instead of just over 150 points.

They are not a terrible choice, just not really competitive unless it is a more friendly game. I tend to use mine as a moving screen for my DPs and Tgor sorcerers, which they usually move up, screen, do a small amount of damage somewhere, and then promptly die. I do love the model though.

I have used the spear ones, and they have the same problems, only compounded because you need to get them in combat to use them, and they rarely make it. Really, they are only good is a small squad to counter any FLYER battle role units, and even then it is rare for them to get a kill.

How are they for capping objectives last minute? As a MSU the 12" M seems like they would be somewhat easy to hide out of sight and then advance out to objectives.

if you play GW ca2018 missions that's pretty impossible, you score points at start or end of ROUND, so last minute run on a obj hardly works