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Donno, the helm can roll multiple times a turn, unlike the book.

And burning CP to mitigate your own CP generator flaws seems counter productive

 BoomWolf wrote:
Donno, the helm can roll multiple times a turn, unlike the book.

And burning CP to mitigate your own CP generator flaws seems counter productive

I accept that the Helm can activate more than once a turn, but, it is rarely gaining you CP beyond the 3rd turn, and still has the significantly higher chance of failing, than the Tome has of gifting your opponent a CP.

10CP is often used as the “average” CP an army has. Many armies use some of that during deployment and list building. On top of that, many lists burn through a significant portion of their CP in battleround 1, in the attempt to alpha strike and gain a large advantage (especially in ITC). It is not uncommon to see lists with 0 CP left after battleround 1, or to only have enough CP to perform a “trick” or highly important re-roll. In both these cases, you’re generally maxing out at 1 CP gained from the relic, maybe 2 if you’re lucky.

The Tome on the other hand, is going to give you a CP 50% of the time, no gain or loss 41.66% of the time, lose 1 CP 5.55% of the time, and have it swing where you lose 1, and they gain one, 2.77% of the time.
This gives you a massive 91.66% chance of gaining or not losing. Even if you don’t have CP to re-roll, you’re still looking at an 83.33% chance of gaining/not losing. For me, that reliability over 4-6 turns is well worth it in the long run.
Granted, if you were playing against a list that was rocking 15CP+, and you knew that the CP burn would hold out for 4-6 turns, then, it’ll possibly be reasonably close between the 2 for overall gains, but, again, it’ll depend on your opponent not blowing 50%+ of their CP before the end of battleround 1.

For example, my current Craftworlds list runs 10CP. 2CP is burned before the game, 1 CP is burned in deployment.
1, maybe 2, CP is spent in turn 1, pretty much everything else gets used in turn 2. I don’t have an Autarch to regain CP.
The Helm would only have a 33% chance of getting a CP turn 1, those, the odds would be in favour of it getting one turn 2. After that, there is nothing. Whereas the Tome will remain active throughout the entire battle.

Take the helm/tome as your second artifact, this way you can select it after you see your opponent list.

There have been games were my helm gave a whole 0 CP, and the tome would have been really nice.

So, reviews are out.


Only 9 stratagems, but pretty good ones. we're gonna need more CP. a LOT more.

Some of the cults are cool. time is probably my favorite.

The effect wont be great, and honestly it loots like just being a supcom for another chaos army is what got the most out of this book-but at least it adds some flair.

Watched a review and wrote most of the stuff down for you guys.
Might have missed some small details but that should be it:

There is no army wide buff like with SM chapters, instead we get a bonus detachment wise, choosing a cult for each detachment and get a psychic power, WL trait and relic for it. Multiple detachments can be from the same cult as well. Each psyker in that detachment knows that cult psychic power. Named characters, tzaangor units and cultists don´t get the bonuses but don´t prevent detachments from gaining the bonus as well. So sadly no cult buff for Magnus and Ahriman, but they still get the strategems.

Here a list of the Cults:

Cult of Knowledge:

Psychic Power: 18" WC6+ Cult units reroll wound rolls of 1 against an unit within18"
Warlord Trait: reroll dice rolls of 1 with psychic tests
Relic: relic warpflame pistol with D6 shots and S6


Cult of Change:

Psychic Power: 12" WC6+ -1 Ld & -1 attack on an enemy unit
Warlord Trait: reroll charge rolls + fall back & charge
Relic: once per turn ether switch a 1 to a 6 for 1 of your psychic tests or a 6 to a 1 for an enemys


Cult of Prophecy:

Psychic Power: WC6+ roll a dice and set it aside, uce that dice for a cult units hit, wound, advance or charge roll, or a psychic, deny the witch or morale test. (Not sure what about rolls of 2D6, guess you still roll the second one?)
Warlord Trait: can move up to 6" after overwatch
Relic: 6" bubble on FRIENDLY units, reroll 1 hit, 1 wound or 1 damage roll (might get FAQ`d?)


Cult of Time

Psychic Power: 6" WC 5+ bring back 1 destroyed cult infantery model or D3 on 9+
Warlord Trait: if you manifest a psychic power with a result of 9+, manifest an additional power (once)
Relic: model that dies gets back once with D3 wounds at the end of the phase


Cult of Mutation:

Psychic Power: 18" WC 6+ select a terrain feature in 18" than a unit within 3" of it. Halve its movement & -1 advance and charge rolls
Warlord Trait: hit rolls of 6+ in melee inflict an additional mortal wound
Relic: sorcerer model adds 1S 1T & 1A


Cult of Sceming

Psychic Power: 24" WC6+ cult unit can shoot and charge after falling back
Warlord Trait: cult units in 3" get Obsec or improve their ObSec to count as 2 models
Relic: you get to use one strategem for 0CP once


Cult of Magic

Psychic Power: 9" WC 6+ closest enemy unit suffers D3 MW & each unit in 3" gets 1 MW
Warlord Trait: in you inflict MW with a psychic power, increase MW inflicted by 1
Relic: +1 on psychic tests


Cult of Duplicity

Psychic Power: 6" WC7+ teleport a cult unit
Warlord Trait: set up D3 cult units again at the start of the first battle round
Relic: roll a D6 at the start of the battle round roll of 1 opponent gets 1 Cp, roll of 4+ you get 1 CP


Cult of Manipulation

Psychic Power: 18" WC6+ select an enemy character, he suffers 1 MW and -2 on psychic tests for him
Warlord Trait: substract 1 from enemy units attack characteristic in 1"
Relic: you can steal the melee weapon of an enemy infantry unit in 1", but no hit or wound rerolls and you have to attack that unit


Short summary of the new strategems:

1 CP Risen Rubricae: infiltrate them dudes, one use strategem
1 CP Magister: extra WL trait
1 CP Infernal Fusillade: Scarabs or rubrics shoot twice with rapid fire weapons if they remained stationary,
1 CP Sorcerous Infusion: after resolving a psychic power with 9+, a model in this unit gains D3 lost wounds. Otherwise return 1 lost modell with full wounds
1 CP Indomitable Foes: Rubrics or Scarabs can improve their invul by 1 if chasen as target of an attack
2 CP Yoked Automata: After enemy charges 1 squad Rubrics or Scarabs in 12" to a unit that charged an non tzaangor character they can do 2 2D6 heroic intervention to that unit
1 CP Adepts of the Immaterium: prevent a perils of the warp



Really love the stuff we got. Can see a lot of people using Cult of magic to do lots of mortal wounds.
That Infusion strategem is awesome for magnus or some Scarabs, even on Rubrics.
All cult units knowing their relevant psychic power is just fantastic, like that duplicity one where your rubrics can port themselves in the endgame for example.
That manipulation psychic power to debuff an enemy psyker is sweet as well.
That cult of prophecy relic bubble can buff chaos knights and other stuff, at least until they FAQ it. (If they do?)
Cult of time seems to be good as well.

Overall its not OP, but we get some quite cool buffs, nice strategems and a lot more flexibility.
Can`t wait to test it on Tuesday.

As I wrote on bolter+chainsword, I'm ranking the cults the following:


A tier-Just always good to have as your main-Time, Duplicity

B tier-Useful to have around as a SDC to support another force/main in tiny games-Magic, Prophecy, Scheming

C tier-can be useful when you know who you are facing in advance-Mutation (when you know something needs to be slowed), Manipulation (against armies that depend on one specific spell going off)

D tier-just a meme-Knowledge, Change

 BoomWolf wrote:
As I wrote on bolter+chainsword, I'm ranking the cults the following:


A tier-Just always good to have as your main-Time, Duplicity

B tier-Useful to have around as a SDC to support another force/main in tiny games-Magic, Prophecy, Scheming

C tier-can be useful when you know who you are facing in advance-Mutation (when you know something needs to be slowed), Manipulation (against armies that depend on one specific spell going off)

D tier-just a meme-Knowledge, Change

I would put Magic in A-tier.
The amount of MW you can dish out is just great, also that "small" infernal gateway with 15" is fantastic on Rubrics.
That +1 relic is cool as well.


Otherwise i completely agree with you.
Prophecy, Sceming and Manipulation also heavily depend on your opponent and might be a lot better / worse against certain armies / builds.

 Grotrebel wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
As I wrote on bolter+chainsword, I'm ranking the cults the following:


A tier-Just always good to have as your main-Time, Duplicity

B tier-Useful to have around as a SDC to support another force/main in tiny games-Magic, Prophecy, Scheming

C tier-can be useful when you know who you are facing in advance-Mutation (when you know something needs to be slowed), Manipulation (against armies that depend on one specific spell going off)

D tier-just a meme-Knowledge, Change

I would put Magic in A-tier.
The amount of MW you can dish out is just great, also that "small" infernal gateway with 15" is fantastic on Rubrics.
That +1 relic is cool as well.


Otherwise i completely agree with you.
Prophecy, Sceming and Manipulation also heavily depend on your opponent and might be a lot better / worse against certain armies / builds.

Magic can never be tier A.
Because its strong. competing for the strongest even-but it does nothing to support your main army. it just creates one nuker. (a very scary nuker, but one nuker.)

Magic is going to probably be the go-to choice for a SCD (unfortunately what TS usually are relegated to, a supporting SCD), with Prophecy (because of the amazing relic) and Scheming (for Objsec termies and a 0CP beam) being the second choices for people who want to mix it up a bit.
But it will not be the choice for a "main" detachment in a "real" TS army. only Time and Duplicity really hold tools that make a main detachment shine.

"Cult of Magic

Psychic Power: 9" WC 6+ closest enemy unit suffers D3 MW & each unit in 3" gets 1 MW
Warlord Trait: in you inflict MW with a psychic power, increase MW inflicted by 1
Relic: +1 on psychic tests"

Does anyone know the exact wording of that warlord trait? Could be super powerful with the Cult Power and Infernal Gate.

 Virules wrote:
"Cult of Magic

Psychic Power: 9" WC 6+ closest enemy unit suffers D3 MW & each unit in 3" gets 1 MW
Warlord Trait: in you inflict MW with a psychic power, increase MW inflicted by 1
Relic: +1 on psychic tests"

Does anyone know the exact wording of that warlord trait? Could be super powerful with the Cult Power and Infernal Gate.

Yes, it works exactly as you think.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Virules wrote:
"Cult of Magic

Psychic Power: 9" WC 6+ closest enemy unit suffers D3 MW & each unit in 3" gets 1 MW
Warlord Trait: in you inflict MW with a psychic power, increase MW inflicted by 1
Relic: +1 on psychic tests"

Does anyone know the exact wording of that warlord trait? Could be super powerful with the Cult Power and Infernal Gate.

Yes, it works exactly as you think.

Wow, that's especially good on the Cult power working off of UNIT not MODEL like infernal gate...Hit an Ork Boy 30-model mob, everything within 3" of that mob takes two mortal wounds as well as the mob itself....

Fair enough Boomwolf, the other Cults get a better overall buff.
Especially when you consider chaos soup, i see your point there.
For my part, i play Thousand Sons mostly mono, so i get 2-3 detachments easy and can sneak that Nuke in more easily without loosing on the other a-tier Cults.


@virules: Yeah that power sounds amazing, even better if combined with infernal gateway or some other MW power.

Also makes an great Magic-Cult Assassin with Doombolt / Firestorm / Infernal Gaze sniping Characters and doing 7,5 MW on average if he gets off all 3 powers using the great sorcerer strategem.

Cult of Change relic is pretty strong IMO. Force perils, guarantee super smites, take away or set up key denies, etc.

Cult of magic seems like a brute force method to winning with tsons which goes against my feelings on how tsons should be run.

Now the Cult of Duplicity, that's money. The movement shenanigans there are just outstanding. If what I am seeing is correct we are talking about any unit from tsons (not a named chr) so you can teleport all sorts of things around the board all game. You could even do stuff like dark matter crystal a sorcerer behind enemy lines, cast a few mortal wound spells to a chr that isnt properly screened, then teleport back before your opponent can do anything about it if the opportunity arises. Duplicity is definitely where I am going with my sons.

Not any unit, just cult.
So cultists, and anything goat Is a no go.

I do think Spawn, Mutaliths, Helbrutes, Tanks, and Daemon Engines all qualify.

It's worth getting away from Tzaangor bombs. You will have to play a full game instead of banking on a T1 win, but Rubrics have recieved so many microbuffs they're probably emerging as a stronger choice.

Tabletop Tactics channel on youtube has a batrep up. 2k 1k Sons and GK...neither army WAAC armies but fun.

1k Sons player managed to form his army into a Brigade detachment.

Honestly, brigades are not as hard as most people think they are for csm

We got dirt cheap FA to work with, and multiple elites at fair price. Troops are also cheap if you use cultists.
HS is the main limiting factor.

Problem is, we lack quality HS. His triple predator only worked because the opponent wasn't waac either. Had he faced even a simple space marine tank line, they would quickly fall behind, as every support chaos gives tanks is outmatched by loyalists.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Problem is, we lack quality HS. His triple predator only worked because the opponent wasn't waac either.

It also probably helped that he was running 30x Rubrics. The GK bolters coudn't find a worthwhile target at all once the enlightened got blown off the table.

General question regarding Sorcerous Facade (Cult of Duplicity spell), when cast it yeets a unit somewhere and state that the unit counts as having moved, but if I use it on a unit that was in combat, do they count as having fallen back? Or just as having moved so they'd be able to shoot?
If its the latter the the Cult of Duplicity is really starting to seriously tickle my interest

Edit: I did a bit of googling around Da Jump as its worded exactly in the same way aaaaand.... *trumpets*.... They don't count as having fallen back as they did not perform a fall back move and are not within 1" at the beginning of the shooting phase.
Ooooh boy I'm excited

General question regarding Sorcerous Facade (Cult of Duplicity spell), when cast it yeets a unit somewhere and state that the unit counts as having moved, but if I use it on a unit that was in combat, do they count as having fallen back? Or just as having moved so they'd be able to shoot?

I haven't looked at the exact wording, but if it works like Da Jump for the orks, which I think it does, than yes, you can teleport out of combat without counting as falling back. IIRC it's how Dark Mater Crystal works too.

That's really powerful, for the first time I'm tempted to include some tank or leviathan dread into a TS detachment as it would mean that they are really hard to tie down I combat, as compared to Da Jump this is not limited to Infantry only.
Also even simply teleporting a buffed up Leviathan dread with a claw and a grav-flux 9" away from the enemy might be hella scary and pretty effective, shoot then charge and in your turn teleporta him out again and repeat on another flank, oh boy

I agree pretty much with Boom’s take on the Cults. Duplicity feels like it will be the standout Cult for any main detachment going forward. However, I’m not too sure about Time. Regaining models is always good, but, your only options are Rubrics or SOTs, and if you’re going heavy on those, you’re prob running Duplicity anyway.

Prophecy, I feel like is going to get the FAQ nerf. But, if it doesn’t, then I can see it being a toss up between running Magic or Prophecy on your SCD, depending on the rest of your list.

My personal take on this is going to be a Duplicity Battalion, Magic SCD and a Tzeentch Daemons Battalion. The extra CP from the cheapish Daemons Battalion, along with some of their strats is really helpful.

I currently have 25 Tzaangors in the Battalion, but I might take them out depending on testing. The idea of Rising 20 Rubrics, Jumping 10 Rubrics and DMCing 25 Tzaangors is very interesting. All depends on how things go in the games where my opponent deploys fully first and has Infiltrator units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do have a question though…

If a unit is deployed mid table via a strat (i.e Risen Rubricae), but then re-deployed later by the Duplicity WL trait, can it still deploy as per the strat, or does it need to be setup in your own deployment zone?

I think Change is a "small detachment support" rather than a pure meme, simply because it has maybe the best relic in the business.

Against any opponent with lots of psykers, my small support detachment is 100% going to be change. That thing is like a Culexus Assassin that also gives me +2 if I'm near it, doubles my opponent's chance to peril, halves my chance to peril...so good.

The problem with change is that the relic is the only thing worth a damn.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The problem with change is that the relic is the only thing worth a damn.

Change is much stronger in soup I think. You need some kind of gimmick to make the LD drops and CC effects relevant.

Just attempting to wrap my limited brain power around this... so the Cult of Magic WL trait - if I manage to roll two 6s for Tzeentch's Firestorm, is that 4 MW?

And the Astral Blast spell will be D3+1, then 1+1 on everything else in 3"? Hoo boy.

Gonna play my first game with the new rules tomorrow.

Time Cult Battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince (Comeback relic)
Exalted Sorcerer (Warlord w. High Magister)
20 Rubrics
2 x 10 Kultists

Magic Cult Vanguard Detachment:

Daemon Prince (+1 Psy Relic and +1 MW Warlord trait)
Exaltet Sorcerer on Disk (DMC)
Contemptor wit 2 x TwinLasCa
5 Scarabs
Shaman

Daemon Battalion:

Changecaster
Fluxmaster
3 x Brimstones with some blue horrors

Not 100% sure about the Time Cult battalion, might be better to switch for duplicity to jump those 20 Rubrics around and get access to the CP relic instead?
Wanna infiltrate those 20 Rubrics and use fussilade + veterans first turn. Sounds to much fun not to do it.

Also want to test that MW spamming Magic Cult HQ.
First idea was to use the DP to get Gateway + new spell for lots of mortal wounds.
Alternative is to use the Disk Exaltet with Doombold, Infernal Gaze and Firestorm to snipe some characters. Maybe a mix of both?
Thought about combining DMC and / or warptime to reach some sweet spot.
Altarnative take: Exaltet on foot to get Boon of mutation as well and hope to get a gateway with +4 at some point.

Or try to use a Termi Sorcerer to get a +6 on his gateway test just for the lulz, no +1 MW tough.

 Patch wrote:
Just attempting to wrap my limited brain power around this... so the Cult of Magic WL trait - if I manage to roll two 6s for Tzeentch's Firestorm, is that 4 MW?

And the Astral Blast spell will be D3+1, then 1+1 on everything else in 3"? Hoo boy.

Yes indeed.

 Patch wrote:
Just attempting to wrap my limited brain power around this... so the Cult of Magic WL trait - if I manage to roll two 6s for Tzeentch's Firestorm, is that 4 MW?

And the Astral Blast spell will be D3+1, then 1+1 on everything else in 3"? Hoo boy.

It should only be 3 mortal wounds for Tzeentch's Firestorm - 2 for the spell, and then an additional 1 for the warlord trait.

I think the winning approach is playing the mission and piecemealing the enemy army over 6 turns, not trying to force a decisive finish by the bottom of T2. TS got a lot of love but they're not going to outshoot marine gunlines due to a stratagem or leafblow entire armies off the board due to a few casting tricks.