Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)

P177 of the BRB, on the right of the page under reinforcements, states:

Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc).

"In this manner" is specified to be things like teleportarium strikes or other forms of deepstrike in the previous sentences btw.

Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.

DaPino wrote:
Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.

And then you realize to not a be an ass, and that that whole statement about not moving more is so that TFG doesn't move after dropping down, and has nothing to do with Warptime at all. Least that's how I'd run it because the intent is to stop people from dropping and than doing their movement, not to screw over over a spell (that ignores rules, because you can only move once a turn last I checked) and the swarmlord (he'd also be affected by this by not allowing trygons to advance when popping out).

Interesting point. I missed that statement in the reinforcement rules. The question I guess would be does the warptime rule count override what the reinforcement rule says in the same way that some units can advance and charge despite the BRB saying a unit that advances cannot charge.

DaPino wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)

P177 of the BRB, on the right of the page under reinforcements, states:

Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc).

"In this manner" is specified to be things like teleportarium strikes or other forms of deepstrike in the previous sentences btw.

Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.

To take the other side, look at it this way. The general DS rule that you quoted effectively states that units set up via DS cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive BECAUSE their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield. That's fine, and makes perfect sense. Since most models only get one movement phase a turn, if their movement phase is essentially eaten-up via DS deployment, they can't then do anything else in that movement phase and effectively their movement for that turn is over. However, movement that occurs outside of the movement phase (i.e., charging), CAN still occur on the turn when a model deploys via DS, and that's important, because that's exactly what Warptime does. It allows a model to move in the psychic phase as if it was that model's normal movement phase.

The upshot of all this is that yes, a model deploying via DS cannot perform any other movement in that movement phase, but Warptime provides a second opportunity to move outside of the movement phase, so the model should be able to DS and then move via Warptime.

Brian888 wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Can you point me where it says "end of turn", can't seem to locate it anywhere, only "end of movement phase".

Also, don't you think that if people could not move after DS the entire turn, it would mean assaulting form DS was imposible? (and we know full well it is an option.)

P177 of the BRB, on the right of the page under reinforcements, states:

Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc).

"In this manner" is specified to be things like teleportarium strikes or other forms of deepstrike in the previous sentences btw.

Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.

To take the other side, look at it this way. The general DS rule that you quoted effectively states that units set up via DS cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive BECAUSE their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield. That's fine, and makes perfect sense. Since most models only get one movement phase a turn, if their movement phase is essentially eaten-up via DS deployment, they can't then do anything else in that movement phase and effectively their movement for that turn is over. However, movement that occurs outside of the movement phase (i.e., charging), CAN still occur on the turn when a model deploys via DS, and that's important, because that's exactly what Warptime does. It allows a model to move in the psychic phase as if it was that model's normal movement phase.

The upshot of all this is that yes, a model deploying via DS cannot perform any other movement in that movement phase, but Warptime provides a second opportunity to move outside of the movement phase, so the model should be able to DS and then move via Warptime.

That's not what it says though. It says it cannot perform any other movement in that turn, not "that movement phase". Charging and moving are two very different things and explicit permission is given to charge.
Like, I would love thousand sons to not be gak on the table; They're my primary and favorite army. However, things don't work a certain way because you or I want them to. The rules say turn, not phase.

Azoqu wrote:

DaPino wrote:
Warp time specifically states that you can move (a.k.a. take a move action) as if it were the movement phase. But since the rules for reinforcements state explicitly forbids you from taking any further move actions, regardless of whether it actually is the movement phase, the whole deepstrike->warptime->charge strategy is void.

And then you realize to not a be an ass, and that that whole statement about not moving more is so that TFG doesn't move after dropping down, and has nothing to do with Warptime at all. Least that's how I'd run it because the intent is to stop people from dropping and than doing their movement, not to screw over over a spell (that ignores rules, because you can only move once a turn last I checked) and the swarmlord (he'd also be affected by this by not allowing trygons to advance when popping out).

When following the rulebook makes you an ass.

DaPino wrote:
That's not what it says though. It says it cannot perform any other movement in that turn, not "that movement phase". Charging and moving are two very different things and explicit permission is given to charge.
Like, I would love thousand sons to not be gak on the table; They're my primary and favorite army. However, things don't work a certain way because you or I want them to. The rules say turn, not phase.

Well, let's look at the actual language. As you quoted, "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive - their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield- but they can otherwise normally act (shoot, charge, etc)." The portion of that quote that I bolded is there to explain WHY such a unit normally cannot move or advance further during the turn they arrive; otherwise, there's no reason for it to be there. What follows from that is the argument I made before:

1) A unit normally only gets one movement phase a turn in which it can move or advance.
2) A unit that deepstrikes uses its entire movement phase in order to finish that deepstrike, so normally it cannot move or advance that turn.
3) Such a unit CAN engage in types of movement that occur outside of the movement phase (such as charging).
4) Warptime allows a unit to move or advance outside of the movement phase, during the psychic phase.
5) Accordingly, a unit that deepstrikes and gets buffed with Warptime cannot move or advance during its actual movement phase per the deepstrike rules, but it CAN move or advance during the psychic phase.

Please take rules debates to YMDC forum.

Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?

 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?

Tzaangors don't get the daemon keyword, however if you put your HQ's on a disc they count as daemons so there can be some synergy there. They lose access to their own buffs if you do that but getting the -1 accuracy penalty from the changeling is almost certainly worth it.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?

Tzaangors don't get the daemon keyword, however if you put your HQ's on a disc they count as daemons so there can be some synergy there. They lose access to their own buffs if you do that but getting the -1 accuracy penalty from the changeling is almost certainly worth it.

Hmmm interesting, they still give out their buff right? does it add the keyword or replace?

Replace. Nearby Rubrics/other KSons infantry would get the buff from a Disc Exalted Sorcerer, but the Sorcerer himself would not.

So is a disc worth it for Ahriman and/or exalted sorcers? Its mobility vs the selfbuffs. I am not sure on what is better. Or is Ahriman better of on foot?

I ran Ahriman on foot because I wasn't trying to rush him into combat or anything. I wanted him to stay safely with his Tzaangor and Rubric escorts. Saved the points since I saw no benefit in taking the disc (not even a toughness upgrade).

The benefit of the disc to me is keeping up with what you have cast warptime on, in case you need to cast it again.

 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?

There are some synergies but not many.

Sorcerers on Disks gain the Daemon Keyword and can gain benefits from Heralds and Changling.

there really isn't a whole lot of synergy.

Tzzangors are odd right now they are supposed to be a Chaff unit that Draw enemy fire but the fire they draw is not the fire you want them to draw. There useful against melee focused armies but against shooty armies you have stick them in Rhinos to get them up to the front line, and at that point your paying 14 PPM for what is a slighlty better in melee combat SM on a much worse frame.

As best I can tell they are supposed to be character hunters, but they lack the ability to get to Characters, and any real punch to actually take them down.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
Are T-sons looking any good with Tzeench Demons? maybe I missed it earlier but how are tzangors now? Are they still considered CSM or are they CD?

There are some synergies but not many.

Sorcerers on Disks gain the Daemon Keyword and can gain benefits from Heralds and Changling.

there really isn't a whole lot of synergy.

Tzzangors are odd right now they are supposed to be a Chaff unit that Draw enemy fire but the fire they draw is not the fire you want them to draw. There useful against melee focused armies but against shooty armies you have stick them in Rhinos to get them up to the front line, and at that point your paying 14 PPM for what is a slighlty better in melee combat SM on a much worse frame.

As best I can tell they are supposed to be character hunters, but they lack the ability to get to Characters, and any real punch to actually take them down.

Yeah I am getting alot of mixed signals on em from all over. Kinda kickin myself in the ass cause I used to run chaos daemons in 7th but before 8th was even leaked I traded them cause I got tired of spending the first 30 min of every game rolling for powers. Now though with 8th I am really tempted to get back with them but add some t-son goodness this time.

I consider Tzaangor one of the best units available to Thousand Sons. They're basically super-cultists and I use them as such. For 2 points/model over a generic Chaos Cultist you get better WS, S, T, and Ld, AND they get an invul and THOUSAND SONS Faction. Ad they start with a FAR better set of weapons (sorry, autoguns are terrible for most jobs they are doing anyways). If you give them the alt weapon set the chainsword + autopistol > autopistol + brutal melee even before you get into the fact that the Tzaangor are strikingly better in CC even against non-Characters. All that for +2 points over a cultist. In my mind (at least, how I play) you need to bring a Dark Apostle or some other buffer to get even close to having Cultists match baseline Tzaangor.

This all assumes you're taking Chaos Cultists as objective campers or bubblewrap. I love Tzaangor for the looks but even I'm transitioning to Brimstones as my el-cheapo army of expendables. Tzaangor are good all-rounders in my opinion and I'll still use them in themed armies, but I am finding more and more I just need bodies that stick around under fire and chainswords rather than outright killing anyone.

(If you don't mind working with Khorne, Brimstones and Berserkers working together are DIRTY by the way.)

So in reading all 5 pages, is the general consensus that Tsons are not competitive any longer? At least until a new rule book comes out.

Unless you are hellbent on every single unit having Thousand Sons Faction they are great. They have some of the best Legion-specific units (so far, we'll see what Death Guard get), good synergy with both daemon engines and daemons, and all their major drawbacks from 7th are gone.

Are they "competitive" in the sense that they have some units that are absurdly undercosted and that can be spammed? No. But that tier is what, five or six units in the entire game?

And Thousand Sons look fantastic on the table, which never hurts

I think you should definitely expect to run a little Tzeentch (and maybe the new Renegade snipers, we'll have to see how those pan out) but there's certainly enough good in the faction that you can run enough Thousand Sons to call it a Thousand Sons army. SOT's and Rubrics are both very good and Magnus is one of if not the best LOW's in the game (as far as ones that can be reasonably taken in a 2k point game goes).

I'm fairly happy I can use my Ammarara as marauders snipers. Just need to make some more models to be the ones without sniper rifles..

DireTribe wrote:
Ok so looking forward to trying out 8th edition tzeentch goodness this coming weekend.

First impressions of 8th is that we dust buckets have gained a lot more flexibility in list composition at the expense of a constrained, but hugely streamlined (read less paper work), psychic phase.

Here is roughly what I'm planning on running. It is one detachment with a mix of sons and tzeentch daemons:

HQ
Ahriman on foot
CSM daemon prince with 2x Malefic Claws and wings
Tzeentch herald on a disc

Troops

2x 9 Rubrics (including aspiring sorcerer with a sword)
Both riding a rhino with havoc launcher
10 pink horrors

Elites
9 Scarab Occult Terminators
9 Flamers of Tzeentch

Fast Attack
9 Screamers

If BattleScribe is right this comes in at 2001 points with everyone packing stock gear unless otherwise specified.

Basic plan is screamers, herald, flamers and prince go haring off at the enemy as fast as possible. Herald will boon the screamers hoping for +1T and otherwise just dishing out his aura. Meanwhile rhinos also boot it at the enemy. Turn 2 rubrics get out and I then have the option of deepstriking the scarabs in support of either rubrics or daemons. If they pop up near rubrics then Ahriman can cast prescience and warp time on the SoTs. This means 36 2+ to hit inferno bolter rounds followed by fair odds for a charge to mop up stragglers for more 2+ to hit goodness. If by some miracle they are affected by the princes aura then that's 2+ re rolled...Similar but less effective shenanigans can be pulled by the CSM prince who can manage either prescience or warp time.

Meanwhile the horrors chill out on their deck chairs preferably near an objective.

The list has a good dose of smite (3 "proper" smiltings and 4 reduced effectiveness smitings).

It also relatively hardy with a fair number of hardy "all is dust" wounds and T4 4++ multi wound models.

I think I'm, going to have issues dealing with armour. Herald, prince and screamers together can do a fair number on tough targets I hope with lampreys bite, heralds strength aura and potentially an extra +1 S from boon (far from guaranteed as a result of both the random roll and need to pass a psychic test). Might also have issues with hordes but I'm hoping between flamers, buckets of screamer attacks and precise application of SoT inferno bolters I should put out a fair showing.

Oddly, I couldn't get the points to work out until dropping unit size down the sacred number...

Thoughts and comments would be appreciated. Will do my best to report back after the weekend.






So got a few games in with this list and variants of it over the weekend. All in all I was pleased with its performance and bagged a couple of wins.

The daemon brigade (flamers and screamers) tended to get wasted pretty early on but bought time for Rubrics and daemon price to get close. Scarabs dropping in thigh prescience and warp time were devastating. Rubrics were rarely targeted and did good work all game long. All in all fast tzeentch daemons and and inferno bolts get work done.

 Solosam47 wrote:
Yeah I am getting alot of mixed signals on em from all over. Kinda kickin myself in the ass cause I used to run chaos daemons in 7th but before 8th was even leaked I traded them cause I got tired of spending the first 30 min of every game rolling for powers. Now though with 8th I am really tempted to get back with them but add some t-son goodness this time.

The TS units wouldn't do too well but the HQ slots with wings/disks would do well. S7 attacks from the Exalted Sorcerers on disks hitting on 2s, DP Would get S8 attacks with Talons which would make them shred Tanks getting 7.7 wounds per turn between melee and psy attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TzeentchNet wrote:
I consider Tzaangor one of the best units available to Thousand Sons. They're basically super-cultists and I use them as such. For 2 points/model over a generic Chaos Cultist you get better WS, S, T, and Ld, AND they get an invul and THOUSAND SONS Faction. Ad they start with a FAR better set of weapons (sorry, autoguns are terrible for most jobs they are doing anyways). If you give them the alt weapon set the chainsword + autopistol > autopistol + brutal melee even before you get into the fact that the Tzaangor are strikingly better in CC even against non-Characters. All that for +2 points over a cultist. In my mind (at least, how I play) you need to bring a Dark Apostle or some other buffer to get even close to having Cultists match baseline Tzaangor.

This all assumes you're taking Chaos Cultists as objective campers or bubblewrap. I love Tzaangor for the looks but even I'm transitioning to Brimstones as my el-cheapo army of expendables. Tzaangor are good all-rounders in my opinion and I'll still use them in themed armies, but I am finding more and more I just need bodies that stick around under fire and chainswords rather than outright killing anyone.

(If you don't mind working with Khorne, Brimstones and Berserkers working together are DIRTY by the way.)

Tzzangors are not the best unit even if you narrow the options to things down to only infintry units. SOT are probably the best unit, depending on what metritcs you use. Tzzangors are not nearly as good as you are presenting them. They are too expensive and dont draw the fire that Rubrics/SOT need drawn. Keep in mind the whole point of a chaff unit is to draw fire so your real heavy hitters can do thier work.

They pay a lot of points for an invul save that is pretty bad, and dont have the speed necessary to make them a good melee unit. They are slightly less expensive CSM with a much worse save. Which causes them to die exceedlying fast to non AP D1 weaponry which is the exact thing you want your enemy to shoot at your Rubrics.

Thier LD is marginally better then Cultists and they have no way to make it better where as the cultists have access to DA which can buff thier attacks and thier LD Tzzangors will just get shot down to 3 guus and then the rest will likely run off the board.

Lastly notice how quickly your switching out your Tzzangors with brimstone horrors. Which have half the T and 1 better invul save, if Tzzangors were as great as you claim them to be you would not be swaping them out so quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpha wrote:
So in reading all 5 pages, is the general consensus that Tsons are not competitive any longer? At least until a new rule book comes out.

Using Rubrics as a distraction, or throwing in some SOT to add some punch to your army can be very effective, but as an Army TS are lacking a lot right now.

Too much over lap in points; spells, DTW, and Str 4 AP -2 weaponry. On top of that thier need for Rhinos is an anchor like no other. Once people figure out they can just destroy your Rhinos and your army is pretty much neutered dont expect to win any games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TzeentchNet wrote:
Unless you are hellbent on every single unit having Thousand Sons Faction they are great. They have some of the best Legion-specific units (so far, we'll see what Death Guard get), good synergy with both daemon engines and daemons

We know what Death Guard are getting. Plague Marines are more durable then Rubrics have access to better weapons with are better in CC and are cheaper with thier special weapons.

Plague Marines are WAY better then anything TS have access to right now, hyper versitile can take on hordes, or elite units, and have better support options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the best Army I have come up with so far.

4 units of Rubrics w/2 flamers and Hand Flamer
2 units of SOT with Soul Reaper Cannon
2 units of Tzzangors
2 Rhinos
2 Exalted Sorcerers on Disks
Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince with Warp Bolter

The idea is to swap between using the Rhinos to move the most important units up. Against shooty armies you want the Tzzangors in the Rhinos to get them close for the turn 2 charge. Melee armies you put the Rubrics in the Rhinos to prevent the Rubrics from getting charged, and use the Tzzangors to prevent the Rhinos from being surrounded and losing whole units. SOT Can be used to reinforce flanks or be used to punch holes in the enemy line to allow Tzzangors to move in for Charcter Kills.

The DP is your quick response to deep striking units. With him smiting and the warp bolter and getting 7 attacks you can take down a 5 man squad of Terminators in 1 turn.

The weak points of this army are the Rhinos, and Enemy Armor. You really need those Rhinos to stay alive for at least a turn or two. Enemy armor is dealt with by the Exalted Sorcerers zipping over the enemy line and tying them up in combat to prevent shooting. Giving the rest of your army a turn or to to punch holes in the enemy line so you can get some smites on the damn things and kill them.

To be fair, brimstones are almost certainly OP right now and need a points adjustment so I wouldn't fault the Tzaangors too much for being inferior.

Arachnofiend wrote:
To be fair, brimstones are almost certainly OP right now and need a points adjustment so I wouldn't fault the Tzaangors too much for being inferior.

There really not. They are wounded so easily its laughable. Lasguns wound on a 3+ boltguns wound on a 2+ killing them is easy and since people dont pay points for pink horrors they don't get models back if they roll a one. At that point all you have to do is 6 wounds to a squad and the rest will skitter off the board.

Check again, they are T3

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Check again, they are T3

Ugh so many changes yeah they are T3 but thier S1 which means in CC they only wound on 6s.

Probably should have thier save changed though

Yeah you really are relying on smite for damage output.
But that's actually pretty decent point for point anyway.

Brimstones are very durable. That's really what makes them incredible for their cost. T3, 4++, and can benefit from the Changeling (who is disgustingly awesome himself) if he's in 9". They can fire off Smite, Deny, and are a whopping 2 points each. They're not killing anything in close combat, but so what? That's what countercharge units are for.

Tzaangors are still great, and if they mod the Brimstones back I go for my meatshields (though if they leave their powers alone Brimstones may still be useful for MSU Smite spam).

Well, just found the answer in the decimator or contemptor question.
The contemptor's "containment breach" rule is just too devastating for us.

Sure, might not trigger, but when it does, it wrecks havoc on our forces.

Decimator could still blow up, but its not QUITE as nasty or us, and he's quicker, and does not get slown down when damaged-so throwing him far away to blow up there is more reliable.
Still not sure on the best loadout. my instinct says one claw and a soulberner petard for 149 points of pure nastiness, but not sure.

We can also technically pick up zhupor, akros and necrosis if we want for some odd reason, I personally find it amusing.


Moving on to daemons.

How do you guys find the blue scribes and tzeentch heralds?
How about non-brime horrors? they seem a bit overpriced. (and brimes rather underpriced)
Do they add any value to our TS forces?