Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tuluth wrote:
In regards to the 'All is Dust' ability on Rubrics, at least according to the enhanced ibook Index: Chaos (as I don't have the new Chaos codex, and don't have the hard copy book on me at the moment), it reads

"Add 1 to the saving throws for the unit if the attack has a damage characteristic of 1. In addition, the -1 modifier to hit rolls for moving and shooting with a Heavy weapon does not apply to this unit."

I never specifically mentions 'Rubric Marines' in it at all, so I would argue that it applies to the Aspiring Sorcerer as well. In addition, the entire unit has the keyword 'Rubric Marines', and it can be argued that on older revisions that 'All is Dust' specifically mentioned Rubric Marines or Scarab Occult Terminators, that the ability specifically applied to the associated Keyword, and thus affected the entire unit, including the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Thoughts? Or has the wording changed again in Codex: Chaos Space Marines?

Your ibook isn't accurate to the hard covers (not surprising, countless errors exist between them).

The Index and Codex both clearly indicate it's for Rubric Marines only. "Add 1 to the saving throws for Rubric Marines if the attack has a Damage characteristic of 1. In addition, the -1 modifier to hit rolls for moving and shooting with a Heavy weapon does not apply to Rubric Marines."

So sorry but it's only Rubric Marines, not the Aspiring Sorcerer. This is sorted both by the lore where the Aspiring Sorcerer is NOT DUST, the other sorcerers in the same books all being NOT DUST, and the rule that follows this one on the Rubric Marines page which clearly shows that when they specify Rubric Marines, they mean Rubric Marines.

"Favoured of Tzeentch: All models in this unit have a 5+ invulnerable save."

Any time you see in the Wargear Options something refer to the unit name, they mean the unit mooks alone and not the Champion or Aspiring Sorcerer. The Chosen entry reflects this, stating what options are available to Chosen, which the Chosen Champion is not permitted to select, yet also having options that can be used by the Chosen Champion or by "any model" in the unit.

 Nym wrote:

A Arkaine pointed out, the Sorcerer doesn't have All Is Dust, hence the 57 figure. And I highly doubt spending CP to reroll Rubrics' saves is wise, considering how vital they are to our psychic phase.

Yeah I always forget about that.

 Nym wrote:
Hmm that's right. It's probably the biggest weakness here. Don't we have any mean to counter that ?

Unfortunatly no. The only thing we have is the 2CP auto pass morale test.

 Nym wrote:
I'm not really adding anything actually. The Sorcerer (Ahriman in my case) will be there wether I play Tzaangors or not. They're mandatory for us. It was just a question of "what's the best unit to buff".

What I mean is if your going to look at units and how to make them more durable always consider whether the best thing to do is just bring more bodies.

 Nym wrote:
Anyway thanks for your input, you convinced me. Denies affect all units the same so I don't thing it's that much of a problem, but as you said, Morale really kills these guys. :(

If you want to run some, which you should have at least a couple units, you should run them in groups of 10, not 30. Have them share a Rhino with another unit to get them up close when neccissary.

Tzzangors are really good at bubble wrapping, eating other chaff units, and eating Charcters that get caught out in the open. Use them accordingly. They can also sit on a rear objective if needed. Not the best unit for that but not bad at it either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Here you go!

Spoiler:

Found this in the CSM tactia thread. Not much has changed. Except we can now take SOULREAPER CANNONS IN SQUADS OF 5!!!!!!

This drops the cost of bringing Soulreaper Cannons by 100 points plus they are now 15 points which means a 105 point drop in fielding a single Soulreaper cannon

Personally I will be exploring bringing 6 5 man squads with SRCs because I can.

Muhahahahahahaha

Actually, it's not the only change to rubrics.
The sorcerer got cheaper too, though his smite is slightly worse (overpower when over 10 rather that 10 or more)

But it is not applied to us yet, at least not formally, as it's the elite CSM rubrics, not out troops.

Casually though, most people will probably agree to let you play your rubrics the new way.

Feel like I've asked this before, but what would be considered the best loadout for a Hellbrute?

Would only be a single Hellbrute but it would be supported by a Daemon Prince.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Feel like I've asked this before, but what would be considered the best loadout for a Hellbrute?

Helbrute Fist + Power Scourge is one the best multi-wound killer in the game, point-for-point, and it gives us a much needed counter-assault unit.

Twin-LasCa + Missile Launcher is nice but it has to stay immobile for full effectiveness.

I feel that hybrid Helbrutes really don't perform well, since moving reduces their BS, but it's just my humble opinion.

I personally like a scourge/Hbolter setup.
Scourge makes it good enough in CC, the Hbolter gives some ranged ability and the fact crazed gunning isn't wasted, and the loadout in general is cheap enough.

Arachnofiend wrote:
I've been struggling mightily against vehicle heavy lists and not sure what our best AV is. Anyone have good suggestions for what they've been using to deal with big tanks and superheavies, and how many of them I should be fielding?

THE CRIMSON KING

and Helbrutes and Predators are okay at it

Had two games this weekend for the Konor event. We were the attacker this time vs Imperials being defenders.

Mission was to get units off the table edge on their deployment side. Extra VP was awarded if it was a vehicle. They get an extra VP if they wipe out a unit of yours, if the last model killed was done by their vehicle.

I took:
- Ahriman on disc with Diabolic Str, Warp Time, Weaver of Fate, Smite
- Rubric squad of 5 with 1 warpflamer
- Helbrute with Fist + heavy flamer, Scourge
- Heldrake with Balefire flamer
- 30 man squad of Tzaangors

First game was against IG. He had a full platoon or more, plus a LR Vanquisher, LR Punisher, Chimera, and a full 3 Lascannon heavy weapons squad.

We only got 2 rounds in but it was a slaughter. Drake moved up the full 30" to get in the vanquisher's face. Ahriman moved up alongside the brute. Warp timed the Helbrute another 8". Rubrics and Tzaangors on the other half the map moved up and shot/advanced. Ahriman also Weaved the Tzaangors down to a 4++, and Diabolic Strengthed the Drake.

Shooting wise, didn't do much. Few casualties. Assault side, Helbrute made contact with an infantry squad, Drake made contact with the Vanquisher. Drake didn't do much, but it did force him to withdraw on his movement phase. It took a bunch of wounds from the lascannon squad. He did the 2 CP bonus for this mission which allowed one vehicle to fire everything twice while taking a -1 to hit. This looked like it was going to hurt. 40 Punisher shots, 2 lascannon shots, 12 heavy bolter shots, and 6 stubber shots later, I lost 4 Tzaangors. I already love these guys.

Round 2, Drake charged the vanquisher again. Helbrute wiped out the squad he was fighting. Ahriman warp timed himself and did 9 (!) wounds to the Punisher. Tzaangors got stuck in with another infantry squad. Rubrics finished off the lascannon teams.

Thousand Sons won 4-0. If we had gone another round, I'd have easily gotten 6 more VP.


Game two vs Footdar with a Prism tank, 2 quads of hawks, baharroth, and a few guardian squads. Same strategy.

Drake ran down a guardian squad but didnt' do much damage. Helbrute advanced. Ahriman buffed everything. Tzaangors took the middle of the field and Rubrics moved forward shooting.

He deployed his hawks, wiped out the Rubrics. Didn't do much else.

Second turn. Drake disengages, charges into the Prism tank. Ahriman kills off the guardian squad. Helbrute beats the snot out of some hawks. Tzaangors manage to make the charge into Baharroth. 32 attacks and 31 hits later (love that character re-roll), I do 12 wounds. I forgot they had the -1 Ap and baharroth only takes 4 wounds.

His other hawks and dragons hit the helbrute but he holds on. He shoots some Tzaangors but forgets to disengage his Fire Prism. From here the Beastmen kill Baharroth after I remember the -1 AP, they cause something like 21 wounds. Helbrute wipes out the dragons, leaving only a couple hawks. Ahriman disengages, smites the prism tank down, smites the other hawks out of existence. 2 easy VP. Drake kills his farseer finally. And Thousand Sons walks out with an impressive 11-1 win.



Thoughts on the army.

Ahriman. As good as everyone says he is. He is a force multiplier that can really wreck vehicles or anything with multiple wounds.
Helbrute. I still love this guy. He managed to craze finally while in combat. It was glorious.
Tzaangors. Wow these guys overperformed. They held off the punisher. Lost 10 to morale, and still survived. In game 2 they even managed to kill a phoenix lord.
Heldrake. Didn't really do much damage, however that 30" movement and the ability to tie things down was very valuable and cannot be under-stated.

Cant even believe this even needs clarifing.... But this is 40k......the aspiring sorc..is infact a rubric marine in the same way a sm sgt in a tac squad is still a sm...as he still has the rubric marine keyword...so unless they make aspirings their own datasheet with new keywords your sorcs get the all is dust rule as well...dont let some pedantic gakker try and screw you..theyve also played with rubrics on the stream before and applied the buffs to the sorcs so until they get their own sheet or FAQ them, enjoy your dust sorcs

The Aspiring Sorceror has the RUBRIC MARINES keyword, but the All is Dust rule doesn't reference the keyword so he gets no benefit. Remember if the rule isn't referencing something in bold it's not referencing a keyword, it's referencing a unit/model name.

Chrysis wrote:
The Aspiring Sorceror has the RUBRIC MARINES keyword, but the All is Dust rule doesn't reference the keyword so he gets no benefit. Remember if the rule isn't referencing something in bold it's not referencing a keyword, it's referencing a unit/model name.

QFT.

If people let you get away with it Mesokhornee it's great for you, but neither RAW nor RAI support your interpretation.

And please refrain for insulting people who do not agree with you.

The ambiguity is in if it's refererencing the unit name or the model name. Nothing to do with keywords. In the face of it both interpretations are valid.

Looking at the other special rules I think model name is more likely.

I must be missing something about the whole Aspiring Sorcerer debate. He is a part of the unit. The unit has the All Is Dust rule so he has it because he is part of the unit. I dont understand why this is even a question.

Boski51 wrote:
The unit has the All Is Dust rule

That's why you don't understand. The unit doesn't have All Is Dust. "Rubric Marines" have it. The Aspiring Sorcerer is not a Rubric Marine.

If they wanted him to have it, they would have worded All Is Dust as they worded Favoured of Tzeentch : "All models in this unit ...."

Rubric marines are the poor souls turned into what is basically haunted power armour by the Rubric- they have no physical body. Sorcerers still have physical bodies, so why would they gain the benefit of not having a body?

The datasheet lists Rubrics and Sorcerers separately, and states that All is Dust applies to Rubric Marines, and Favoured of Tzeench applies to all models in the unit.. Anyone who tries to claim that All is Dust applies to the sorcerer doesn't know the fluff of their own army.

Plus anyone who tries to act like Rubric Marines = the champion too doesn't apparently know how Havocs and CSM work with their champions. No, you can't give your Champion a Lascannon.

The unit is the what has the special rule. When reading the data sheet it says:“This unit contains 1 Aspiring Sorcerer and 4 Rubric Marines.” further, the All is Dust rule states; "Add 1 to the saving throws for the unit..."

Erm, no, All Is Dust says "Add 1 to the saving throws of Rubric Marines". On the other hand Favoured of Tzeentch says "All models in this unit". The difference in wording is there for a reason.

It's dumb imo but Arkaine and the others have the right of it.

Now I see the issue-you all are talking about the Codex. I was reading the index-not the codex. Now I get the argument. I was wondering what the hell you guys were talking about.

Boski51 wrote:
Now I see the issue-you all are talking about the Codex. I was reading the index-not the codex. Now I get the argument. I was wondering what the hell you guys were talking about.

No, even the Index says it this way:

All is Dust - Add 1 to the saving throws for Rubric Marines if the attack has a Damage characteristic of 1. etc etc heavy weapon stuff

As I've told people a thousand times now, don't use the digital copies as RAW. They contain countless errors including considering Axes as Flamers that autohit and many rules and abilities have different wordings in them for no apparent reason (that actually break the rules they're supposed to enforce).

Both the Index and the Codex say the same thing. All is Dust, by design and lore, is strictly for non-Sorcerer tin cans.

Hi,

Had a 2000pts game against Necrons. Failed very badly, due to self-made mistakes and bad rolling.

However, when thinking about what didnt work, I stopped thinking about my casters and current limits on casting: I had Ahriman, DP, 2xsorc and one exalted. That means even if everyone smites I have 6 casts left. But due to bad positioning, and short range of spells, most of the time I really didnt get off any buffs where it would matter.

My conclusion is that more casters is actually bad, as there is not enough to cast, and if you have several casters, you still end up misplacing them. Unless matched play cast limits ease up in our codex (unlikely) or we get more useful spells than six (also not likely) I think only way to play "spell heavy" is to spam smite, and for that mini-smiting sergeants would seem more useful that real sorcerers.

Br,

Timo

Timmon wrote:
Hi,

Had a 2000pts game against Necrons. Failed very badly, due to self-made mistakes and bad rolling.

However, when thinking about what didnt work, I stopped thinking about my casters and current limits on casting: I had Ahriman, DP, 2xsorc and one exalted. That means even if everyone smites I have 6 casts left. But due to bad positioning, and short range of spells, most of the time I really didnt get off any buffs where it would matter.

My conclusion is that more casters is actually bad, as there is not enough to cast, and if you have several casters, you still end up misplacing them. Unless matched play cast limits ease up in our codex (unlikely) or we get more useful spells than six (also not likely) I think only way to play "spell heavy" is to spam smite, and for that mini-smiting sergeants would seem more useful that real sorcerers.

Br,

Timo

Quite the opposite. Unless you have a lot of command points, you dont want to use a lot of light smites for a couple reasons. If you perils, you likely kill your own guys since you only have 1 wound to start with. And it's also light smite, so you only do one wound and not d3 to start with.

With that said, Necrons might not be the best tournament tier army out there, but man are they tough. I had a 1500 point game chasing an ice cream truck, and I got tabled on the very last turn while most of his infantry made their way back on the field. But the best play of the game was Ahriman down to 2 wounds, flew over some immortals and landed next to his Warlord, heavy smite 3 times, and peril'd with double six's on the last one. He dealt himself 3 wounds, killed himself, killed the necron warlord, killed 2 immortals from one squad, another from another squad, 3 warriors, and a cryptek.

#Worth

Erm,

Nintura, can we spam Smite? I thought all the spells are once per caster only, with the provisio that everyone can smite once, even when other spells are once per turn -limited.

About exploding casters: that was actually my fail, one exploding Scarab Occult sorc killed himself, 1,5 dudes of his team, also, 1,5 dudes from next scarabs, 3 dudes from rubric team close by, and for 2 sorcs 3 and 1 would each. Rolled high on 5 x d3, basically ruining that flank of my army totally. No enemy in range. Lesson learned: when smiting, keep some distance if at all possible. And yes, re-roll was used for an earlier casting.

Br,

Timo

You can't. Last sentence of the "2. Make Psychic Test" section of the core rules.

Chrysis wrote:
You can't. Last sentence of the "2. Make Psychic Test" section of the core rules.

Im at work. What does it say?

As far as I know, you can spam Smite.

 nintura wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
You can't. Last sentence of the "2. Make Psychic Test" section of the core rules.

Im at work. What does it say?

As far as I know, you can spam Smite.

"A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn."

In other words, at a per psyker level, each psyker can only attempt to cast any power once. The exception you're thinking about for Smite applies to the Matched play limitation on powers in a turn. In other words, multiple psykers can attempt to manifest Smite in the same turn. However, each psyker can still only attempt to manifest it once.

 Arkaine wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
You can't. Last sentence of the "2. Make Psychic Test" section of the core rules.

Im at work. What does it say?

As far as I know, you can spam Smite.

"A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn."

In other words, at a per psyker level, each psyker can only attempt to cast any power once. The exception you're thinking about for Smite applies to the Matched play limitation on powers in a turn. In other words, multiple psykers can attempt to manifest Smite in the same turn. However, each psyker can still only attempt to manifest it once.

Ah ok. Ive never actually broken down the different games to play. So as an army, you can only manifest each power once, but each psyker can manifest Smite once.

 nintura wrote:
Ah ok. Ive never actually broken down the different games to play. So as an army, you can only manifest each power once, but each psyker can manifest Smite once.

In Matched play, yes.

If you do Narrative battles, there's no limit on powers per turn and all your psykers can freely cast all their spells. I recommend this for Armageddon sized games, anything over 2k.

Fate of Konor mission today. Specialty: Psykers. Except there's really no bonus with having a psyker... Anyway, 55 PL lists.

Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince with wings and 2x Talons
Squad of 5 Rubrics with icon, soulreaper and 2 warpflamers
30x squad of Tzaangors with Icon and instrument
Hellbrute with heavyflamer, fist, and scourge
Heldrake with Baleflamer

Plan is to escort and advance the Tzaangors with Ahriman and the DP, supporting the triangle with psyker skills. Get the helbrute up as fast as possible with Warp Time. Get the Heldrake into combat on first turn if possible, tying down something important and powerful. So far I've liked this strategy and the speed is something people don't expect from a Thousand Sons army.

Got 2 games in last night. Thousand Sons army is now 11-1 in 8th edition.

Last nights games were the Psyker missions from the Fate of Konor series. Chaos was the defender so I had 24" setup with plenty of defenses, however the attacker got the sustained attack rule from the book. 3 Objectives setup by the defender worth 3 VP each. Slay the Warlord in effect.

First opponent was the Astral Militum army that I scooped to back in week 2 I think, and the only person to give me a loss so far. Between Ahriman using Weaver of Fates on my Tzaangors, and giving them re-rolls of 1's for their saves, they covered 2 of the 3 objectives the entire game. The Daemon Prince, Heldrake, and Helbrute, just did disgusting things. Ended up winning the first game 10-0 with Slay the Warlord

Round two found me fighting Harlequins. This was a close one. He got first turn, annihilated the entire squad of Tzaangors in the first turn (the goats killed one squad of troops) along with all but 2 of my Rubrics. My return fire was equally brutal. Between Ahriman and the DP, I stripped two important units of their invuln save and killed both his psykers and his warlord. By the end of the 2nd turn, Ahriman was in his deployment zone and I thought I had all but tabled him. However, I forgot he gets his stuff back... Ended up seeing Ahriman die, but he bought at turn. I kept killing units and models but I was being pushed back and it became a race to who could get back to the objective markers first. I BARELY won with my DP flying back within 3" of the first objective and my Helbrute killing a 5 man squad of troops that were getting close. 4-1 but that was the closest game I've had yet this edition. I think all in all, over 100 models died that game.

The latest edition, the DP was absolutely beast with his claws. The AM brought a squad of marines to deep strike and the DP just turned them all to goo. Twice over the course of the game. 7 attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, adding another attack on a 6 vs Imperial units, and I think over the course of the night, I only missed once.

https://imgur.com/a/eTeJL