Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm glad you're having more success than I am, haha. I actually got out-smite-spammed by a Renegades and Heretics list with 9 malefic lords the other day. I just couldn't deny enough smites to prevent them from ripping through my poor Rubrics. One of them peril'd and punched Ahriman to death.

lol wow. Well yeah, they are able to do that because they can spam the best units. We all know Malific Lords are really, really good. I'm not even sure what they are either. Anyone want to tell me?

Heretic version of Primaris psykers basically.

Dirt cheap character psykers are an issue.

On top of being 30 points a pop, when they suffer perils and survive (will always happen because they have 4 wounds) their stats get boosted up to daemon prince levels.

Anyone else getting concerned over these Mechanicus previews? These things are looking way to overpowered, especially these electro priests.

AdMech is arguably the worst army in the game right now, I'm not too concerned. Electro-priests have a serious problem with getting shot off the board before they can do anything (remember, AdMech doesn't have any transports).

Not really.

Electro priests are brutal-but only if they get to you.
The short range on their weapons (12" variant and melee variant), coupled with the fact they are not fast, nor have a transport means they shouldn't get to you easily unless you go to them.
5++ 5+++ is decent, blocking 55% of incoming wounds without much to get around it-but its T3, so wounds are not hard to put on it. its a troublesome unit for US as we focus on quality fire rather than mass fire, but no more than nurgle daemons are.
The melee priests, as the article didn't mention, need to actually wipe a unit in combat the previous turn to have that 3++.

Also they mulch command points in rapid speed in order to pull off the crazy shenanigans that the previews present. one of said shenanigans requires cawl to be present.

If you manage to get hit by that on any meaningful targer, something went awfully wrong long ago.

Basically, priests are "win more" units. if you are already winning, they secure it. but they don't actually donate to getting you to the winning position to begin with, as they they excel at wiping out a backfooted opponent, not fighting against an opponent that can fight back.

Also, they are weak to anti-horde tactics (having only "decent saves", but you can't really get around them), and currently anti-horde is mandatory anyways as hordes are the biggest threat.


The dogmas seen so far, mars get more power out of canticles, in excage for having control over them, while garia are harder to kill (similar to IH)

Admech seems interesting, and rather good, but not overpowered.

 nintura wrote:
Anyone else getting concerned over these Mechanicus previews? These things are looking way to overpowered, especially these electro priests.

Would not surprise me. They were overpowered last edition too to push model sales. Necrons and Tau and Tyranids all had their days of being unholy to push model sales, and even Dark Eldar was once synonymous with Terror. Some of this stuff, point and efficiency wise, is far better than anything we possess and they can easily wipe Magnus off the field. They have the shooting needed to ignore our better saves and they stack multiple buff synergies to achieve maximum force multipliers. That's the AdMech way... synergy out the wazoo.

Enough with this stupid "overpowered to push sells" rhetoric
For every overpowered model, there were two who were utterly unplayalbe for the same army released at the same time.

It was never a marketing decision to make overpowered models, it was sheer incompetence.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Enough with this stupid "overpowered to push sells" rhetoric
For every overpowered model, there were two who were utterly unplayalbe for the same army released at the same time.

It was never a marketing decision to make overpowered models, it was sheer incompetence.

That argument doesn't even make sense... a codex doesn't matter if one unit is pushed and two more are not because everyone will play only the pushed in the first place. That's what we are seeing right now with Mal Lords and Astral Militarum armies.

Either way, I was just going off what the GW articles are saying. 80 hits? S5? Ignoring 1/3 of wounds? Of course I'm not talking about how they actually perform on the table top, I can only go by what I've experienced and that's what I'm reading in these articles.

But it does. it so much does.

Lets assume making units overpowered is indeed a marketing decision to sell more models.
Why on earth do you bother releasing 2-3 other kits at the same time who are UNDER powered?
The released the riptide, made one variant of it intentinally overpowered in order to sell more models.
And then released a useless sun/razorshark alongside it that is also big and fancy that wouldn't sell because it sucks? not compared to riptide, but in general it really sucked.
And some pathfinders too, though they were even then not the best marker sources to begin with, and honeslty not impressive and all their "new toys" were useless.

The logic that they make new things overpowered on purpose in order to sell makes no sense when you take into consideration every new model that was pure TRASH gameplay, because that model was therefore made in order not to sell?


Bringing up malefic lords is even more absurd, that thing HAS NO MODEL, you have to kitbash or convert or whatever, therefor having it "overpowered on purpose" promotes no sells at all.
The astra's "new hotness" are mostly old models, nothing that really pushes new sells (because who in his right mind buys platoons of conscripts now when the codex isn't even out and there is no telling if they'll even be viable in two months time)




As for the GW articles-its hype articles, naturally they show the units they hype in their absolute greatest theoretical performance, where all the stars aligned and everything is going just right.

"Ignoring 1/3 wounds" is equal to having a 5++ that every lesser daemon ha (some have better). hardly introducing anything groundbreaking-and its not the dogma alone but the dogma in combination of the existing rules, the dogma itself blocks 1/6, practically an improve version of the IH tactics. the IH tactics are widely regarded as terrible. so the upgrade makes it decent, hardly overpowered.

The 80 S5 hits-by an elite unit of 20 models, (said unit costs you 280 currently), accompanied by a unique HQ (who currently costs 250), and somehow all 20 models are within 12" of the enemy despite being regular walk speed, having no transports no mobility abilities and die fairly quickly even to bolters. (3 bolter hits per kill) the only way that's ever happening is if you actively help your opponent do it.
So, 80 S5 hits by using units totaling 530 points, and under conditions so impossible that if you ever did your opponent should quite wargaming forever.

 BoomWolf wrote:
But it does. it so much does.

Lets assume making units overpowered is indeed a marketing decision to sell more models.
Why on earth do you bother releasing 2-3 other kits at the same time who are UNDER powered?
The released the riptide, made one variant of it intentinally overpowered in order to sell more models.
And then released a useless sun/razorshark alongside it that is also big and fancy that wouldn't sell because it sucks? not compared to riptide, but in general it really sucked.
And some pathfinders too, though they were even then not the best marker sources to begin with, and honeslty not impressive and all their "new toys" were useless.

The logic that they make new things overpowered on purpose in order to sell makes no sense when you take into consideration every new model that was pure TRASH gameplay, because that model was therefore made in order not to sell?


Bringing up malefic lords is even more absurd, that thing HAS NO MODEL, you have to kitbash or convert or whatever, therefor having it "overpowered on purpose" promotes no sells at all.
The astra's "new hotness" are mostly old models, nothing that really pushes new sells (because who in his right mind buys platoons of conscripts now when the codex isn't even out and there is no telling if they'll even be viable in two months time)




As for the GW articles-its hype articles, naturally they show the units they hype in their absolute greatest theoretical performance, where all the stars aligned and everything is going just right.

"Ignoring 1/3 wounds" is equal to having a 5++ that every lesser daemon ha (some have better). hardly introducing anything groundbreaking-and its not the dogma alone but the dogma in combination of the existing rules, the dogma itself blocks 1/6, practically an improve version of the IH tactics. the IH tactics are widely regarded as terrible. so the upgrade makes it decent, hardly overpowered.

The 80 S5 hits-by an elite unit of 20 models, (said unit costs you 280 currently), accompanied by a unique HQ (who currently costs 250), and somehow all 20 models are within 12" of the enemy despite being regular walk speed, having no transports no mobility abilities and die fairly quickly even to bolters. (3 bolter hits per kill) the only way that's ever happening is if you actively help your opponent do it.
So, 80 S5 hits by using units totaling 530 points, and under conditions so impossible that if you ever did your opponent should quite wargaming forever.

Because you are forgetting two things.

First: GW is under a new CEO and has been doing much better

Second: GW is a model company. Not a rules/games company. They do what they can with what they have, and what they have is only a handful of writers and game testers. This is why they are reaching out to the community now and allowing other organizations to playtest the rules.

Just for reference, 20 Noise Marines only fire 60 S4 times. Total. These tech priests are getting 80 S5 HITS. The noise marines also cost nearly 400 pts while the tech priests are 280.

Noise Marines are the creme de la creme of Chaos units for shooting yet they will still get outshot by this blob. They have other abilities, longer range, and resilience but still can't match this unit's firepower even on a per model basis, let alone on point cost efficiency.

I wouldn't call it stars aligning for a unit that has extremely potent weapons to be limited to a shorter range to use those weapons. They are cheap enough that you can field hordes of them to make up for the ones that die.

 nintura wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
-snip-

Because you are forgetting two things.

First: GW is under a new CEO and has been doing much better

Second: GW is a model company. Not a rules/games company. They do what they can with what they have, and what they have is only a handful of writers and game testers. This is why they are reaching out to the community now and allowing other organizations to playtest the rules.

Thats...just proving my point that it wasn't intentional but sheer incompetence in rule writing....

 Arkaine wrote:
Just for reference, 20 Noise Marines only fire 60 S4 times. Total. These tech priests are getting 80 S5 HITS. The noise marines also cost nearly 400 pts while the tech priests are 280.

Noise Marines are the creme de la creme of Chaos units for shooting yet they will still get outshot by this blob. They have other abilities, longer range, and resilience but still can't match this unit's firepower even on a per model basis, let alone on point cost efficiency.

I wouldn't call it stars aligning for a unit that has extremely potent weapons to be limited to a shorter range to use those weapons. They are cheap enough that you can field hordes of them to make up for the ones that die.

Only with the 250 point cawl hanging around, not on their own.
Also, noise boys shoot at 24", the priests at 12".

So, this combo costs more than just slinging noise marines, and the marines are harder to kill, have superior range, superior (limited) melee stats

12" range difference in a unit that can only more 6" and has NO WAY AT ALL to move faster is a pretty darn big issue.
A unit can have 1000 shots per model, it matters not if it can't ever actually get to shoot.
This is not such an extreme case, but having 20 priests within 12" of an enemy unit should be difficult enough even if the opponent has made no effort what-so-ever to either remove them (and it's easy) or avoid them (also easy)

It IS starts aligning to actually manage to pull off the scenario described in the article, because the sheer incompetence required by the opponent to reach it is astounshing. the enemy needs to actively move closer to the squishy unit with powerful short range weapons while also not actually killing it.
The only plausible scenario for that is that you have a melee-only army, and that you don't have anyhting that's fast moving (or big enough not to care the priests throwing tons of shots because its only S5 and no AP.

You don't even need 20 noise boys. 10 noise boys will, in any realistic scenario, beat this setup, because the noise boys will have about 4 rounds of shooting where the priests just advance forwards trying to get in range while the noise shuffle backwards and shoot. a noise lad will land 2 hits, netting 1.33 kills on average. Even if you assume the noise boys only had 2 free rounds of shooting-by the time the priests get within range, they are all dead.
Yes, 10 noise marines will kill off a 20 man priest squad in 2 shooting rounds. the only way you don't get 2 shooting rounds before they shoot is if you move towards them other than getting within 24" for the first time-they don't even have a theoretical way to close the gap in time.
And the 10 noise marines are cheaper than 20 priests. far cheaper.
If we took moral casualties into the picture, I'd wager you'll need about 6-7 noise marines (didn't calculate)

Not a single "shooty" unit in the game will lose in a shootout to the priests unless not armed properly (such as being a melta squad) due to the limited effective range of the priests.
Heck, nearly every army's basic infantry would.
When it comes to choppy units, its a dance of sorts. they are VERY good at breaking a unit that got too close, but if you get within range that you can pull off a charge next turn yet they can't get into range, they have to move back and you get to keep the pressure next turn.



Maybe they'll be good as assault deterrents, maybe they'll be good as part of a greater strategy
But on their own? they are practically worhtless.

If the new admech codex feature transports, things may very well change.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Just for reference, 20 Noise Marines only fire 60 S4 times. Total. These tech priests are getting 80 S5 HITS. The noise marines also cost nearly 400 pts while the tech priests are 280.

Noise Marines are the creme de la creme of Chaos units for shooting yet they will still get outshot by this blob. They have other abilities, longer range, and resilience but still can't match this unit's firepower even on a per model basis, let alone on point cost efficiency.

I wouldn't call it stars aligning for a unit that has extremely potent weapons to be limited to a shorter range to use those weapons. They are cheap enough that you can field hordes of them to make up for the ones that die.

Only with the 250 point cawl hanging around, not on their own.
Also, noise boys shoot at 24", the priests at 12".

So, this combo costs more than just slinging noise marines, and the marines are harder to kill, have superior range, superior (limited) melee stats

12" range difference in a unit that can only more 6" and has NO WAY AT ALL to move faster is a pretty darn big issue.
A unit can have 1000 shots per model, it matters not if it can't ever actually get to shoot.
This is not such an extreme case, but having 20 priests within 12" of an enemy unit should be difficult enough even if the opponent has made no effort what-so-ever to either remove them (and it's easy) or avoid them (also easy)

No one's disagreeing with anything you just said, I said the same things above.

However, a unit having lower cost and shorter range with superior firepower is by no means horrible. Berzerkers have EVEN MORE firepower but can only "shoot" from 1" away with their chainaxes. That unit of Zerkers will still cost 340 points and outkill the priests, yet it requires getting even closer than they do at a higher point cost for their abilities and stats. For Berzerkers to pull off good results, they require Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle with them. For them not to get shot off the board, they require a delivery mechanism that is similarly expensive.

But priests are discount horde warfare, a mere 14 points per model and can fielded in numbers. They are undoubted going to lose a few but they can make up for it with redundancy. Delivery mechanisms aren't in high supply but Ad Mech doesn't necessarily need to bring the fight to the enemy. They can sit back and wait for the enemy to come to them while hiding. Or use these guys as a scare tactic, discouraging any melee armies (of which there are many now) from attempting to close the gap on you and suffering the wrath of your priests.

You're only looking at it from the perspective of playing like World Eaters or Chaos in general, not playing like Ad Mech usually does. If I sent my Berzerker horde into his back line and tried to slaughter his stuff, I'd have to deal with priests waiting to say hi to them. These priests can act as defenders of your more important big robots by slaughtering anything that comes near them.

They are as you said assault deterrents.

The problem with priests isn't that they are short range.
Its that they are short range, without any means of transportation or mobility of their own and not durable.
Priests, like zerkers, require a delivery mechanisem to be useful, but they simply have no options.

Zerkers in comparison are somewhat tougher, but more importantly-you have multiple ways to fling them forward at high speed, or have them start closer to the destination.


HAD priests have a way to get around, they might have been useful. but they just don't have any options.
They cant "make up for it in redundancy", because most horde-type units they want to mulch can actually kill them from a safe distance. redundancy hardly helps when your target of choice is even cheaper, and likely to kill you before you get to it.


They can serve as assault deterrents, but that's hardly a game-winning move. and most assault armies feature enough units that can close the gap and launch the charge from a greater threat range than the priests has.

Do you read anything anyone else says? you're just repeating things as your own...

Here's an idea, field more of them. Run them down field and swarm the noise marines. yes, you get shot, but you also get to advance. And you WILL be at a point where you get in range. Your models are cheap enough that you can field far more than they can. And lets not forget the average troop in ad mech are faster than most others. You can easily tied down whatever your target with these while your priests advance and catch up to take the center field.

We should perhaps bring this back to a discussion about Thousand Sons ;p Anywho, I have gathered my forces for my 1k sons army. Now to put it together and play some games! Some interesting talk here about a mix bag of successes and not successes.

I see alot of online batreps where Magnus isn't even in the list. As some of you have pointed out, relying primarily on Ahriman. Is there a shift away from Magnus and his hefty cost (both monetarily and points wise)?? He seems to have gotten alot scarier in my books with the ability to give himself a 3++ with rerollable 1's. He in theory should be a tough nut to crack.

My 2000 point build/plan is to have a small portion of the army with ahriman and rubrics in a rhino moving up the mid field with 20 tzangors and a hellbrute. Then lead a quick targetted alpha strike (hit one flank hard) with Magnus, 2 units of terminators, Helldrake, and demon prince in an attempt to threat overload. I'm hoping to tie things up with the helldrake, anything that could pose a serious threat to Magnus, then let his 3++ do some work. Hopefully the primarch panic will buy time to let the other units do some serious damage. Thoughts? Anyone try anything similar? I've watched a couple batreps where people fling Magnus forward of the rest of the army. He usually takes whatever he hits out, then dies in return of the opponents entire army. This is what I want to avoid. Hoping the strat makes sense and works the way I think it might haha.

Guys, a Tsons army can deploy Chaos decimators?? ty in advance

Yea, nearly everything forgeworld is available to us

So, reading up on the Death Guard codex, I'm a little concerned about what the TS codex will look like, but I have some thoughts about that.

First, the biggest concern is this: The Death Guard do not have access to the Dark Hereticus discipline. This would be devastating if the same held true for the TS; Magnus without Warptime is a sitting duck.

A second, and related, concern, is the amount of effort GW as put into creating new Death Guard models, far outstripping what the TS got at the end of 7th edition. These include the Deathshroud Terminators, models specifically designed to keep Mortarion alive as he advances up the field sans Warptime. If the TS lose access to Dark Hereticus, there's (currently) nothing in the TS army that can perform a similar function for Magnus.

This leads to a third concern; how, exactly, will a TS codex work, when the only dedicated TS models are Rubric Marines, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangors, and Magnus? Even including Horrors and Flamers, that's really not much to justify a full codex.

So, as I see it, there are two (not necessarily exclusive) options. First, GW puts the effort into creating new TS models as they put into the Death Guard. I don't know if there's economic interest in this, but there's at least fictional justification. In the wake of the destruction in the Fenris system, Magnus had drawn the Planet of the Sorcerers into reality and it is now orbiting Prospero. Being one of the only Legions with access to their original homeworld could justify the TS getting a lot of new models (i.e., they recover lost power on Prospero). New models expand the options available to the TS, similar to how the new Death Guard models, for example, make grenades interesting and potentially effective for the Death Guard. I'm thinking Osiron Contemptors, the two-sword assault TS termies (their name escapes me), etc. Tzaangors can also be expanded upon, relatively cheaply, by dipping into the AoS Tzaangor options like Shamans.

The second option is greatly expanding the options available to TS via rules. This means (1) making casting easier for the TS than anyone else, perhaps as the Legion Trait (particularly important for Aspiring Sorcerers, given the current Perils danger they present versus the relatively limited psychic output they have), and (2) giving the TS many, many options for psyker powers, so that while the army may be small, they have a TON of flexibility on the table. This could include, for example, a stratagem that lets TS sorcerers cast the same non-Smite power more than once in the same phase in Matched Play modes, so that different sorcerers can Warptime in the same phase, for example. This, of course, contemplates giving the TS access to Dark Hereticus, as well as a Tzeentch-specific psyker table.

It'd be great if we got a few more units; we could really use a more efficient means of taking heavy weapons on infantry, for example. Maybe as a combined release with Craftworld Eldar since Magnus still has to get out of the Webway iirc.

Widied wrote:
We should perhaps bring this back to a discussion about Thousand Sons ;p Anywho, I have gathered my forces for my 1k sons army. Now to put it together and play some games! Some interesting talk here about a mix bag of successes and not successes.

I see alot of online batreps where Magnus isn't even in the list. As some of you have pointed out, relying primarily on Ahriman. Is there a shift away from Magnus and his hefty cost (both monetarily and points wise)?? He seems to have gotten alot scarier in my books with the ability to give himself a 3++ with rerollable 1's. He in theory should be a tough nut to crack.

My 2000 point build/plan is to have a small portion of the army with ahriman and rubrics in a rhino moving up the mid field with 20 tzangors and a hellbrute. Then lead a quick targetted alpha strike (hit one flank hard) with Magnus, 2 units of terminators, Helldrake, and demon prince in an attempt to threat overload. I'm hoping to tie things up with the helldrake, anything that could pose a serious threat to Magnus, then let his 3++ do some work. Hopefully the primarch panic will buy time to let the other units do some serious damage. Thoughts? Anyone try anything similar? I've watched a couple batreps where people fling Magnus forward of the rest of the army. He usually takes whatever he hits out, then dies in return of the opponents entire army. This is what I want to avoid. Hoping the strat makes sense and works the way I think it might haha.

Im not playing Magnus solely because we are a casual group doing the Konor campaign games. However, once the super heavy mission comes around (we are behind by a couple weeks, it's over but we are still going through the motions), I'll certainly be putting him in.

Brian, your post is a bit on the confused side.

First, TS will lose dark hereticus, but will gain at least one complete spell list of their own.
So why exactly it would be devastating to magnus? he'll lose warptime, but will gain a whole new book. maybe it will be even better for him for all we know.


Also, its entirely possible that we have more than one spell list, one of the few things that make TS unique is the different "cults" within it, 5 subsides with each their own outlook on psyker powers. the system exists in 30k and might see something akin to it in 40k.


Second, giving an "easier casting" ability to a TS army has a case, the GK codex already does exactly that. no reason to believe the TS won't at least have something of the sorts.


You also forgot Ahriman in the model list, he's a thing.
And the fact that exalted sorcerers is a good spot to create multiple character types rule-wise. 7 of the DG new units are a single-model character thing, and exalteds are exactly where the "psychic might" aspect can be expanded upon.
HOWEVER, do not expect even for a second we will be nearly as complete as the DG are. the DG are the "wallpaper villain" of this edition, we are not. they got a hell lot of lose to make them a proper "showcase" army-we are not the showcase army.

As it comes to models, the very best we'll get is a single dual-kit. don't expect anything crazy.

The twin-sword dudes, the Khenetai, are not terminators.
And I find it hard seeing them having a purpose in a TS army to begin with-being slow moving rubric is a bad starting point for an assault unit.
The Ammatara would be much preferable, being snipers (that chaos is general currently has none of) and all. however they didn't even get 30k models yet, and they are in recon armor that doesn't really fit rubrication.

Osirion Dreadnaught would be awesome, but highly unlikely.
Ditto Castellax-Achaea.

GW doesn't seem to directly port from 30k to 40k after all. even the deathshroud are not the same. (neither are the SoC, though that's explainable by the rubrication)

I mean, I seriously doubt he'll get something better than warptime simply because warptime is that damn good. He will retain Weaver of Fates though, judging by how the Nurgle spell is on both Dark Hereticus and the Contagion list.

Well, going back to current 1ksons works.

Terminator Sorcerer-is there any value in one?
If so, how would you equip him? a combi of sorts? (melta maybe? we are slightly short on AT)

I happen to have a BaC terminator captain sitting around that I got from a fried, and nothing to do with him besides making a termisorcerer (double-work as a termi preator in 30k games I guess, if I'll ever actually get to play 30k)

It gives a 5+ invuln to a unit that usually doesn't have one and lets you deep strike. The main use is using him to cast prescience on your SOT's, I think. I agree that the combi-melta is the way to go, we need any anti-tank we can get our hands on and the other options aren't terribly useful.

I was JUST LITERALLY looking at this as an option for SOT's. I like the idea of deep striking 9" away, using Warptime to move them up, Prescience on the squad, then shooting and assaulting things into oblivion. A 10 man units of Termies sounds like it should be devastating. Anyone able to do the math on this?

Is it just me or is the best current way to run tsons to do a small detachment from the index with out exalted sorcerer and anything tsons special there in that detachment (I have been trying with supreme command with 2 exalted sorcerers and my old lord of change as a deamon prince) then run alpha legion from the codex as vanguard detachment for the rubric marines at the cheaper entry level for the soul reaper cannons? Plus you can see the alpha legion ability like a powerful spell cast before the game started or something if you need a fluffy reason for it.

Finally you do the same for any heavy or fast detachments you want, just grab another sorcerer or a basic chaos lord and grab those points. Just give everything the mark of tzeench for weaver of fates target ability. This idea has allowed me to keep my sorcerer on a bike legal and still stay tzeentch like. (Been running him with chaos spawn in the fast attack detachment, they do really well because my opponent always ignores them for bigger targets in the field)

Also the power "weaver of fates" allows us to cast it on any tzeentch heretics astrades model. You can give the mark of tzeench to a predator with quad laz, and if you put it in the second detachment with alpha legion as its legion that makes it -1 to hit and get a 5+ save if I am reading this right. That's one crazy tough pred nut to Crack.

Or am I doing this wrong?

Here we are assuming Tsons to have the same rubric rules as regular CSM aside of the slot type, so that's not an issue.


Also, weaver of fate is honestly rather poor of a spell. the slannesh one is outright superior.