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I have been running numbers on brigades, duel detachments, and your standard 7-6 CP lists to get a better handle on our list design post-codex.

Honestly I can see 20 rubrics (2 units of 10, deep strike, rhino, or otherwise) being an almost constant part of my list design. they fullfill a very different role then our Bird-Headed minions and with the ruleset they way it is Scarab Occult come out in a top tier among terminators.

After doing the math; the amount of points we pay for "all is dust" is hardly a premium; its 2 points. TWO POINTS a model.

Though that bar is fairly low with primarily blight kings being among top tier (t5/5++/5 FNP) being ludicrous in terms of survival.

Ahriman21 wrote:

After doing the math; the amount of points we pay for "all is dust" is hardly a premium; its 2 points. TWO POINTS a model.

I assume you're comparing SOT's to regular CSM-terminators.
Techically we pay more as we have -1M.
On the other hand our sergeant is a freaking forcestaff-wielding, inferno-combibolter-toting psyker.

But yeah, SOT's are great. The fact that the model's are some of the finest GW has ever made isn't exactly bad either.

Ya know that fair, also totally forgot about the -1M, the deepstrike often gets them where they are needed most and Matter Crystal and Warp time certainly help.

The stratagem that changes our powers allows us to pick any power from any 3 disciplines so barring an faq it could be a good way to get some demon spells in on an upgraded caster. Infernal gateway on a +2 caster with +2 strat means you’re casting on a 4.

That’s one hell of a spell on a 4

And a helluva lot of CP that we probably won't have too many of. What does Infernal Gateway do again? Sounds like a deepstriking thing.

D3 MW to the nearest enemy target and any enemy within 3" of that unit.

Basically, you can bomb 12+ MW on a well-placed cast on armies that spam characters and MSW


Upgrades to d6 MW if you get 12+ on the cast, so with +4 to cast-it can be really nasty.

It costs 1 cp and realistically we should be averaging 7-9 cp. Our legion tactic only helps Psykers so once you fill out your mandatory 2 hq and 3 Troops literally everything else can be put into another detachment or soup detachment.

For instance I plan on taking Ahriman a dp and a term sorc. Term sorc and dp are in my pure tson battalion for relics and traits while Ahriman and a renegade commander with 3 brims fill out my other battalion. With 9 cp and plenty of points leftover to fill out whatever you want.

if you're already doing a battalion with three brims, why not bring a couple heralds of tzeentch instead of the pure tax renegade commander? Save yourself wasting a spell slot on gaze of fate on your DP, then grab blue scribes or something as your second HQ and you've got a TZd detachment with bonuses and goodies.

the_scotsman wrote:
if you're already doing a battalion with three brims, why not bring a couple heralds of tzeentch instead of the pure tax renegade commander? Save yourself wasting a spell slot on gaze of fate on your DP, then grab blue scribes or something as your second HQ and you've got a TZd detachment with bonuses and goodies.

I was thinking Changeling and a herald, and the horrors in troops slot, the changeling aura, along with his 6++ aura considering how much of our list will have the Daemon keyword.

Probably do cultist + changeling + herlad of tzeentch + 20 horrors.

I dont care about the locus, they are some point fillers that can harass and take losses and push out deepstrikers.

Hey guys, decided to join the legion of Magnus a few months ago and started painting stuff.
Really excited about the codes and here are some of my thoughts about the new stuff:

Concerning CP's and strategems I absolutely think we can do some nasty stuff. With the relic we'll get a few CP for free and you can easily get 9+ in your list. A brigade without Magnus is an option of you don't bring too expensive stuff.
Otherwise just go for two battalion detachments and maybe even a daemon one of you like to bring some.
That's an easy 10 CP + 2-5 extra you'll get from the relic depending on enemy list and your dice rolling.
Since you will just pay 1CP for the 2 best relics and 1 or 3 for the webway infiltration upfront you'll have about 10 CP to spend ingame.
The free reroll with gaze of fate will also help to save CP.


With all the discussion about Codes Tzaangors going on I can just say I think Rubrics and Scarab Ocult Terminators are still a valid option and got a lot better. Personally I like the idea of a list mixed with Rubrics, Scarabs, Exalted sorcerers, some tanks or daemon engines supported by daemon stuff and tzaangors. They are part of their background and everybody should decide for themselve at what ratio to use that units.
Too bad reading the 1000 sons threads means skipping a lot of that stuff while we could make plans for our lord tzeentch and try to make the best with what we got. Kinda like the ork tactic thread btw.

I really love the models so 2 units of rubrics, 2 exalted sorcerers and 1 unit of SOT will be the core for each of my lists.
Don't like using primarchs in small point games so ahriman and a prince will have to do his work which will also leave points for other stuff.

What I thought about for a good starting list uses all the stuff I have at the moment:

Two battalion detachments with 1 CP for the Crystal & the CP relic:

Price of tzeentch with wings (gaze of fate, diabolic strength & treason of tzeentch or infernal gateway or boon of change)
Ahriman (prescience, glamour of tzeentch)
Exalted sorcerer on disc (warptime, death hex)
Exalted sorcerer (doombolt, firestorm of tzeentch)

2 x 10 Rubrics
2 x 10 Cultists (screening and camping)
2 x 10 Tzaangors

Scarab ocult terminators
Tzaangor shaman (prescience / glamour of tzeentch)
6 Enlightened with bow


Thinking about making one of the exalted my worlord for another bonus on important psi powers.
Not 100% sure what psipowers to take with the other free slots. Probably some backup doubles for the most important ones and some of the missing ones. That 13+ powers per turn really is something.
Should be around 1700 points depending on wargear with which I'm generous for my troops.

Similar to some other lists I've seen and should work fine.
Lacks anti tank weapons except mortal wounds and has not that much long range firepower.
Maybe get a daemon detachment with exalted flamers?
Or just take some tanks / dakka forgefiend for long range dakka?

Ahriman21 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
if you're already doing a battalion with three brims, why not bring a couple heralds of tzeentch instead of the pure tax renegade commander? Save yourself wasting a spell slot on gaze of fate on your DP, then grab blue scribes or something as your second HQ and you've got a TZd detachment with bonuses and goodies.

I was thinking Changeling and a herald, and the horrors in troops slot, the changeling aura, along with his 6++ aura considering how much of our list will have the Daemon keyword.

Probably do cultist + changeling + herlad of tzeentch + 20 horrors.

I dont care about the locus, they are some point fillers that can harass and take losses and push out deepstrikers.

The locus even if it's less impactful is practically free. Brimstones, especially with the locus, are much better for you than cultists (1ppm less, 6++ as opposed to 6+, gets the FNP aura from changeling AND gets the locus). sure, they could just die, but in that instance you're better off losing a 3 point model than a 4 point model anyway, all things considered equal.

That's exactly how I run them (though I dip a few more points for the much more useful chariot herald and an exalted flamer for some anti tank.)

Well, to be fair here, the locus has zero effect in shooting and even in CC the effect is hardly reliable-its a really poor locus.

And cultists do have gun, that brimes do not. they can get random kills by dumb luck.

Honestly if you’re going the demon detachment get 2 squads of brims and a big squad of blood letters, put the 3d6 charge relic on them and tie up a big part of their army

I'm thinking bring 2 battalions to get 9CP:

1. TS - Ahriman, DP or Exalted, 2x10 rubriks, 30 tzaangors, 1 tzaangor shaman

2. Tzeench Daemons: DP, Changeling, 2x10 blue horrors, 30 pink, 6 flamers and fill rest with Exalted Flamers

So as result i will spend 3CP for deepstrike tzaangors, 30 pink and 6 flamers.

Exalted Flamers are characters so will hide behind screen and take out heavy enemy tanks.

For turn 1 enemy will be able to shoot only rubrics or blue horrors (which will split to brimstone).

Question is, is the tzeentch prince worth it over the TS prince for getting the tzeenth locus?

Because I honestly think the extra spell may be worth more than that lame locus.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Question is, is the tzeentch prince worth it over the TS prince for getting the tzeenth locus?

Because I honestly think the extra spell may be worth more than that lame locus.

Is it extra spell to know or extra spell to cast?

Cast

And he has a wider selection to pick from.

Am I getting something wrong or now the Exalted Sorcerer is garbage compared to the Prince? For 23 pts more the Prince hits a lot more and can give the reroll to daemons (and has 4++ rather than 5++ right?)
Secondly, what do you think is the better anti tank choice for TS now? Exalted Flamers?

There is no reason to take an exalted sorceror. Take Ahriman if you want an exalted sorceror or the demon prince or a terminator sorceror.

As for anti tank the best answer is obliterators. Tzeentch demon oblits with flickering fire will murder whatever they look at. If you really want to murder it add vets of the Long war and watch whatever they hit disintegrate as long as you get more than 1 damage.

You can hide exalted flamers but they don’t hit nearly as hard

ahahah yeah obliterators obviously, I was just considering TS or Daemon one.
Thank you for the quick reply.

Soulreaper cannon is 1 per 10 models right now, does it mean that i have to take 11 models in unit to have soulreaper? 10 + 1 soulreaper?
I think Exalted Flamers is the best option right now for TS + Daemons imho. Not great but i do not see other heavy shooting options.

demontalons wrote:
There is no reason to take an exalted sorceror. Take Ahriman if you want an exalted sorceror or the demon prince or a terminator sorceror.

As for anti tank the best answer is obliterators. Tzeentch demon oblits with flickering fire will murder whatever they look at. If you really want to murder it add vets of the Long war and watch whatever they hit disintegrate as long as you get more than 1 damage.

You can hide exalted flamers but they don’t hit nearly as hard

If I really wanted to take an Exalted Sorcerer, it'd be for Seer's Bane. Pump him with diabolic strength and you get 5 S12 attacks; not too shabby at all.

The problem is that due to the restrictions on when it can supercharge Seer's Bane is only useful in some matchups...

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Am I getting something wrong or now the Exalted Sorcerer is garbage compared to the Prince? For 23 pts more the Prince hits a lot more and can give the reroll to daemons (and has 4++ rather than 5++ right?)
Secondly, what do you think is the better anti tank choice for TS now? Exalted Flamers?

23 points? Daemon prince with gear 156 base, hes 180 with wings. Exalteds are 121 with gear.

So thats a 35 point difference. for a foot exalted to a foot prince.

I am in the camp of exalted being pretty good actually for their points cost, and relatively well pointed for what they bring; however the daemon prince is exceptionally well pointed for what they bring. In the Thousand Sons list especially for an effectively free 4++ and +1 spell to cast with extra spell access.... so taking one is all but an auto-include due to the points cost. That doesn't somehow make exalted "bad"

However, in the time 8th has been out I cant ever actually recall seeing an "on foot" daemon prince, so really the point cost of most metas that I have seen is actually 180. which of course brings a 60 point difference between, or a 40 point difference between the Exalted and the Prince. Which is a substantial difference depending on points cost your playing.

The fact that a baby-sitting exalted can make back its point cost and never even have to move from his deployment zone (thanks to casting distance bonus and also the aura effecting any ranged units dakka-preds, and of course engines that shoot....has its uses. Most definitely...

I think if you want something to hang back and buff a firebase you’re better off allying in a csm lord and demon engines/tanks if that’s what you’re going for.

demontalons wrote:
I think if you want something to hang back and buff a firebase you’re better off allying in a csm lord and demon engines/tanks if that’s what you’re going for.

Why for? Id rather have him buff my fire base AND sling hate halfway across the board. He retains self sufficiency without just having a bolter and an aura. even looking at the base rate of a Lord (74 points with no wargear) thats only 47 points for 2 spells cast at a good range.

That lords a complete waste. He sits there with an aura, the extra 50 points means he can actually do something useful and can pick up the slack once you lose some of your other casters. Not to mention hurl a smite or two at incoming models when needed, as well as not being a slouch in CC. added bonus I suppose. Needless to say in my lists I play THOUSAND SONS, not "daemons with splashs of goats" lol, and my exalted will feature heavily once i figure out the best builds for them. LOTS to go through.

Well for a couple of reasons. I don’t feel like pure thousand sons are an army that can build a cheap and effective firebase. We only have tanks and shooty demon engines and they will generally want to stay put, so your exalted won’t be seeing a lot of action and he’s not tough or mean enough to take on much of anything alone.

Exalted also don’t have any built in casting pluses unless you give him the warlord trait. So they’re not as effective as other casters we have.

Thirdly I think thousand sons are an army that is going to want to pick a moment to apply maximum pressure to a spot and go all in. Because of our lack of long range firepower we need to be in the enemies face ASAP casting mortal wounds left and right and having the goats lock things up in CC while the rubrics burn everything else.

With our strata and relics we can put 3 infantry units anywhere on the table that we want, if we take terminators that number just goes up. With warptime we can also almost guaranteed put a unit in combat.

So if we drop a unit of terms, a unit of 20 tzaangors, and a 10 man flamer squad, backed by a demon prince in one spot we can then choose to either throw the gors into combat using warptime and then disengage next turn and allow the flamers to burn or warptime the flamers up and annihilate a squad and use the gors and prince to be the counter assault units.

I’m not saying exalteds are useless I’m just saying you have better options

Interesting points. and I tend to agree in many cases.

I suppose it bares mentioning that my average list for 2k often has 4-5 walkers in it. including contemptors, forgefiend, ranged defiler build, and ranged helbrutes / dreads.

So that is probably why I am partial lol. It just seems useful overall for my army build. but I definitely see your points.

It is a bit strange that exalted have remained so middle of the road, in comparison to our bonkers other HQ options...

- Termi Sorcerer got a great buff, and fills an important niche now.
- Daemon Prince is *crazy* good now.
- Exalted ... saves you 29pts or so, I guess? If you think that +29pts is worth trading in for a DP's: load of health, access to 6 psyker powers, a great keyword for benefiting from buffs and powers, and one of the best CC profiles in the game.
- Or if you want one of the best psykers in the game, spring the twelve or so points for Ahriman, a godlike caster who gets a 3++ if you're that way inclined.

The exalted fails in exactly the same way as his index version did, which is a shame as the models are incredible.

Aye, Exalted Sorcerers are sadly in a position where they don't really offer anything that can't be achieved by our other HQ's (Ahriman, DP's, Terminator Sorcerers.)

The only thing I can think of is as a Seer's Bane deliverysystem.

Mostly I wouldn't trade out a foot exalt for foothriman because I find foothriman in general to be a complete waste, he should always be deployed on his disc so you can maneuver him to where he needs to be at.

and at that point, you are talking about more of an investment.

I think if you're looking from a competitive standpoint, the exalt is definitely very niche, and his niche is as a backline babysitter where points are at a premium and Ahriman is going to be making himself useful elsewhere.

When I tried out my list without the exalt and with disc Ahriman trying to cover his role, I found that Ahriman was too frequently required to pop himself out of his aura range of one or two of my core shooting elements to do things like ensure a target was closest for Smiting, or get in range for Gift (I know Gift is usually trash but I was in the niche situation of being against close-range guard and I had Gaze of Fate rerolls available for the toughness test, it actually worked really well). In essence Ahriman proved to be too valuable to leave in the backline and I was wanting his prescence even farther up on the board. What was lucky for me was that the primary targets I wanted him to focus on (the knight and the scariest guard characters) were coming to him, so it was pretty easy for him to drop doombolts on the knight every turn, etc. but versus a gunline I'd have to move ahriman up along with my chaffline.

So what I was considering was making a list with an Exalt, Ahriman, and a Prince. Ahriman trades out Prescience to the Exalt for Warptime, which I previously had on my jump sorceror but it's such a critical roll it felt risky to put it on a basic caster. Exalt's second power is Glamour, our other good vehicle support spell, which I put on whatever my most valuable tank unit is that game. Then Ahriman takes Doombolt and one other offensive spell, probably Firestorm, to give him the option of a turn throwing pure offense around. The prince takes obligatory Diabolic Strength and possibly Weaver, just to make himself obnoxious to kill. I have allied tzeentch daemons who have nothing better to do than cast Gaze of Fate for me.

That leaves Temporal distortion and boon of mutation as my rubric marine spells, and I generally take either weaver or glamour on my SOT depending on matchup. The former I'll use to heal vehicles, characters, whatever needs topping up, the latter I'll do my best to drop on Ahriman whenever I can get him within 9". I gotta disagree with the assessment that either of those powers are so utterly critical that they must be prioritized on a +caster, to me they're "nice to haves".