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So vortex beasts, what do you all think about running 2 of them? I'm thinking about dropping my 2 laz preds for 2 of them, but at that point I'm worried I'll loose my good heavy armor killing unit.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So vortex beasts, what do you all think about running 2 of them? I'm thinking about dropping my 2 laz preds for 2 of them, but at that point I'm worried I'll loose my good heavy armor killing unit.

they do not worth their points imho.

Vortex or the preds? Because either have been seeing rumors that vortex are 150 points

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Vortex or the preds? Because either have been seeing rumors that vortex are 150 points

I think he means vortex. To make them really work you need lots of stuff that can take direct singular buffs -- Tzaangors, Horrors, Flamers, etc

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Vortex or the preds? Because either have been seeing rumors that vortex are 150 points

I think he means vortex. To make them really work you need lots of stuff that can take direct singular buffs -- Tzaangors, Horrors, Flamers, etc

My plan was going to be run it with a blob on tzaangors. Also got like 50 horrors I could run it with.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

My plan was going to be run it with a blob on tzaangors. Also got like 50 horrors I could run it with.

Yea it works quite well with them, but you'll want to save a reroll for the crucial moments when it fails to activate, because it is wounded or a bad roll.

Cons of Preds - they do not have invul save and degrade. Watched last tabletop tactics battle report (https://www.tabletoptactics.tv/battle-reports/warhammer-40000-battle-report-new-thousand-sons-vs-imperium-2000pts/) - and they did very nothing. Same experience i have when played versus Predators - focus on them and they die very easy.


Cons of Vortex - what does it do? Buff? I haven't seen all rules yet - but he has to be a best in melee to worth 150+ pts.

It's.... ok in melee. S7 leaves a lot to be desired.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Cons of Preds - they do not have invul save and degrade. Watched last tabletop tactics battle report (https://www.tabletoptactics.tv/battle-reports/warhammer-40000-battle-report-new-thousand-sons-vs-imperium-2000pts/) - and they did very nothing. Same experience i have when played versus Predators - focus on them and they die very easy.


Cons of Vortex - what does it do? Buff? I haven't seen all rules yet - but he has to be a best in melee to worth 150+ pts.

Some of his buffs which they can stack are like +1 attack +1 AP, +1 str, or you can do like 1 mortal wound to all enemies in 9 inches, or pick the closest enemy unit in 18 inches roll 3 dice each 4+ is a mortal wound. And you get 2 random powers each turn.

It's strange 7 t 7 in melee I think it's strange user, at -2 and the other option is a 1 wound d -1 AP and 3 attacks per attack in melee.


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Really it would be just to get. 4 random stackable powers. Or if I wanted to use two of them to say they have str 6 or -3 AP

 nintura wrote:
It's.... ok in melee. S7 leaves a lot to be desired.

But with Diabolic Strength he gets 15 S9 attacks.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Cons of Preds - they do not have invul save and degrade. Watched last tabletop tactics battle report (https://www.tabletoptactics.tv/battle-reports/warhammer-40000-battle-report-new-thousand-sons-vs-imperium-2000pts/) - and they did very nothing. Same experience i have when played versus Predators - focus on them and they die very easy.


Cons of Vortex - what does it do? Buff? I haven't seen all rules yet - but he has to be a best in melee to worth 150+ pts.

Mutalith degrades, too.

The fun thing about them is you need to put them down 100%. Don't take half measures. If you wound it and it doubles it's range then it will do 1 MW to everything within 18" (as long as it rolls 3+).

Are his buffs permanent or for 1 turn?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Are his buffs permanent or for 1 turn?

One turn, but with two you can either pick two, or get 4 random and they stack.

yeah my only problem with the mutalith is that he's yet. Another. anti elite/anti-horde option in an army that's incredibly desperate for anti-tank. If I remember right he can either throw 12 S7 AP-1 1 damage attacks (pretty good!) or 4 S7 AP-2 multi damage attacks (pretty mediocre).

He is tempting since he can buff my daemons so well, but I think I'd rather have a defiler most of the time.

vortex has amazing synergy with pink horrors. Being able to get them to str 6 (with other buffs) - or being able to buff multiple horrors units to str 5. It's a big deal. And if hes tough to bring down and has beast mode melle stats - might be a keeper IDK.

True and the problem with 8th, is if you take one of something you need to take two because it's gonna get focused.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
vortex has amazing synergy with pink horrors. Being able to get them to str 6 (with other buffs) - or being able to buff multiple horrors units to str 5. It's a big deal. And if hes tough to bring down and has beast mode melle stats - might be a keeper IDK.

To add you can also heal him and buff him to a 4++ the t sons spells heals d3 wounds so

Yeah... the only issue for TS i see right now is anti-tank weapons. I have no idea what can i use for D3 / D6 damage...

Hellbrutes are not great, Predators either...
The only option i see is Exalted Flamers but they're 18' range which is not too great.
Renegade Knight?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Yeah... the only issue for TS i see right now is anti-tank weapons. I have no idea what can i use for D3 / D6 damage...

Hellbrutes are not great, Predators either...
The only option i see is Exalted Flamers but they're 18' range which is not too great.
Renegade Knight?

Predators are most certainly great and now it's easier to get them a babysitter with reroll 1s to hit.
Depending on the circumstances a ML/TL helbrute with fire frenzy and the same rerolls is also handy, but the targeting restrictions are rough.
Enlightened with bows can do a number on vehicles as well.

Can't you cast weaver of fate onto a predator to give it a 5+ invulnerable save?
Also does the pred have the thosand sons keyword for glamor of tzeench?
And did we lose access to land raiders? Land raiders with 5+ invulnerable saves are so pretty. Expensive, but pretty.

Eh land raider are really worthless in my honest opinion. Way to much

We can give 5++ to 1 predator. But 1 is not enough.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Yeah... the only issue for TS i see right now is anti-tank weapons. I have no idea what can i use for D3 / D6 damage...

Hellbrutes are not great, Predators either...

Vindicators, Forgefiends/Maulerfiends, Helfyre Missiles. Enlightened with Spears.
Dont forget about Flickering Flames.

If my WE can deal with 8 tanks my TS probably can too.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Yeah... the only issue for TS i see right now is anti-tank weapons. I have no idea what can i use for D3 / D6 damage...

Hellbrutes are not great, Predators either...

Vindicators, Forgefiends/Maulerfiends, Helfyre Missiles. Enlightened with Spears.
Dont forget about Flickering Flames.

If my WE can deal with 8 tanks my TS probably can too.

Target priority can be a problem but honestly mortal wounds too are not shabby if you stack some psyker spam

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Eh land raider are really worthless in my honest opinion. Way to much

Depends what you put in it. A land raider with Glamour and smoke will be -2 to hit. Keep healing it and your opponent will have a hell of a time bringing it down even without weaver. All those S8 reapers

Ultimately 10 rubrics with 9 flamers is the scariest thing you could load into it.

You can do the same thing with a Defiler, which packs a 5++ and heals some already (only T7 though). Both of these models are great targets for warpflame gargoyles.

Yeah I am looking into a raider with rubrics in it once the codex comes out. I think that will definitely be something scarry heading straight for the enemy line with - 2 to hit.

Myself I am taking a forgefiend instead of a defiler for the support though. 3+/4++ with healing and some help from a chaos lord to get access to deamonforge stratagem, you got an effective fire base between the 2 units I think.

I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?

Heelidar wrote:
I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?

We have 18 unique psychic powers to get around it, that's also why Rubrics and Scarabs now have access to powers other than Smite. Generally speaking Thousand Sons weren't a great Smite spam army anyway due to not having cheap psykers with proper Smite as compared to Eldar and Astra Militarum, as our cheap psykers have the weakened Smite. We're used to it, especially as we have good shooting and combat options to get around it.

Something to note with the Vortex Beast is that it can be really useful for both types of Tzaangor units and Scarab Occult, Rubrics are our only core unit that doesn't really benefit from it. Scarabs get Strength 5 attacks (they'll tear apart most things at that point) Enlightened get AP-2 to make cutting through hard targets that much easier and basic Tzaangors are great with either buff. People are underselling the threat of the Vortex Beast; 14 Wounds, T7, 4+ and 5++ is a lot to chew through, it's fairly nasty up close (it's a great target for Diabolic Strength) and at half health it starts putting out mortal wounds to every enemy unit within 18" on a single D6 roll of 3+ (save a re-roll for that!) For 150 points it's a really nice all-rounder, but I definitely would reserve it for lists that want to get into combat as it does nothing for non-Daemonic shooting armies (it has amazing synergy with Tzeentch Daemons) Not a bad choice for any Tzeentch melee unit or daemonic ranged unit really and cheap enough that it doesn't eat up too much points. Definitely something opponents won't want to ignore.

Heelidar wrote:
I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?

This Beta rule is poorly thought out (should be "WC increases by 1" instead of "-1 penalty to the casting roll") and should never become a reality.
Smite is *not* and has never been a problem. Ultra-cheap psykers with a full Smite were a problem.

A 98pts Chaos Sorcerer casting Smite AND Infernal Gaze averages 2.9 wounds or 0.02975 damage-per-point.
A 40pts Primaris Psyker casting Smite averages 1.66 wounds or 0.04165 damage-per-point.
A 30pts Malefic lord casting Smite averages 1.66 wounds or 0.0555 damage-per-point.

I wouldn't say this beta rule screws us all the time, as we have plenty of new powers to cast, but sometimes all you need is damage and in these situations, the Beta rule is terrible.

Caederes wrote:

Heelidar wrote:
I was just shocked by a beta rule of Psychic Focus (missed it when it came out).
Failed to find any discussions of TS players about it.
Doesn't it annihilate half of our gameplay? And what do GK players think about it?

We have 18 unique psychic powers to get around it, that's also why Rubrics and Scarabs now have access to powers other than Smite. Generally speaking Thousand Sons weren't a great Smite spam army anyway due to not having cheap psykers with proper Smite as compared to Eldar and Astra Militarum, as our cheap psykers have the weakened Smite. We're used to it, especially as we have good shooting and combat options to get around it.

Something to note with the Vortex Beast is that it can be really useful for both types of Tzaangor units and Scarab Occult, Rubrics are our only core unit that doesn't really benefit from it. Scarabs get Strength 5 attacks (they'll tear apart most things at that point) Enlightened get AP-2 to make cutting through hard targets that much easier and basic Tzaangors are great with either buff. People are underselling the threat of the Vortex Beast; 14 Wounds, T7, 4+ and 5++ is a lot to chew through, it's fairly nasty up close (it's a great target for Diabolic Strength) and at half health it starts putting out mortal wounds to every enemy unit within 18" on a single D6 roll of 3+ (save a re-roll for that!) For 150 points it's a really nice all-rounder, but I definitely would reserve it for lists that want to get into combat as it does nothing for non-Daemonic shooting armies (it has amazing synergy with Tzeentch Daemons) Not a bad choice for any Tzeentch melee unit or daemonic ranged unit really and cheap enough that it doesn't eat up too much points. Definitely something opponents won't want to ignore.

18 unique spells on paper.
On the tabletop, we have Rubric and SoT AS who knows only one discipline and can actually semi-reliably cast 2 spells out of it. One of which will be used by Magnus on every turn basis.
18 spells are only for Magnus and DP. Oh, and btw we are not bathing in cheap WC spells at all and don't have a lot of + to cast.
And another question. We have a Smite of an exalted sorc and a smite of AS, do they increase the price of one another?

They definitely should adjust the beta rule to not affect any unit that has a weak Smite, i.e. Rubrics, Scarabs, Grey Knights, Horrors, etc.

For anti tank pink horrors at st5 wound anything toughness 9 or lower on a 4+ with flickering flames

Tzaangor enlightened can auto wound anything on a hit roll of 4+ with a shaman and prescience