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 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
if not predators or halbrutes than what? We do not have a lot of options

Shooting:

- Forgefiends with Hades Autocannons (+ Daemonforge Stratagem.)
- Helfyre Missile Racks if you bring SOT's.
- Vindicators.
- Enlightened with Fatecaster greatbows. While not nearly as efficient at killing tanks as they are with spears, they can easily do a couple of wounds on most targets.
- Anything with a high number of shots and the VotLW Stratagem. (Like a big unit of Rubrics/SOT's)

Melee:
- A Daemon Prince with Malefic Talons and Diabolic Strength. 9 Str 9 D2 AP2 attacks who hit on 2+, rerolling 1's.
- Enlightened with Divining spears. 9 of them average 10 wounds to a Leman Russ on the charge.
- Chaos Spawns, especially with the Fated Mutation Stratagem.
- Maulerfiends (+ Daemonforge Stratagem)
- Magnus is a bit of a can-opener if you bring him.
- Anything with a high number of attacks and the VotLW Stratagem. (Like a big unit of Tzaangors.)

Plus all the other shenanigans we can pull of with psychic powers.
Thousand Sons have plenty of ways to deal with high T targets.

Considering that we can buff all of our vehicles predators, land raiders, mauler/forge fiends etc with prescience/diabolic str etc since they all have the heretic astartes keyword we dont have trouble with high T targets at all anymore..vindicators etc all hitting on 2+s with possible +2 to their str..or put things on a vortex beast..youll make it have str 9, ws 3+, 5 attacks(with 3 hit rolls each using the first melee profile) at -1ap and 1dmg...you can buff it with its own power and basically have 15 str 9 -2ap 1d hits in a fight phase,

Man, now I really want to get my hands on that defiler. I have one on order but it is not coming fast enough!

What are your thoughts on using it as a purely shooting beast vs melee? My initial thoughts were to run it with Scourge+TL heavy bolter just to keep it super cheap, Warptime it up the field and use it like a higher-quality Maulerfiend, but now that its been pointed out that you can use Flickering Flames on that sucker, the twin las/BC/Havoc Launcher build seems pretty tempting. Prescience+Flickering Flames+daemon forge and you're dropping nine wounds on average vs T7 3+.

It does feel like you're largely wasting its melee potential though. Strength 16 dumpsterclaws and the single best model in the game for Warpflame Gargoyles will be sad going unused. Any time you get the first turn (with the +1 nearly every time with how elite we are) you're going to make your opponent very sad dropping every defensive buff on that guy, and any time you don't, he's harder to take down for his points than Magnus.

Yeah defilers are nice for their ability to take all the buffs and do something useful with them. If your only fielding one, I'd got for Twin Las and Scourge. I don't rate the Havoc launcher at all and the ability to smash anything that comes near is well worth losing a few S5 0AP shots for. Great target for both offensive and defensive buffs and few units would want to tangle with it in combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More than one and I'd go for the cheap and cheerful version (twin HB and Scourge), advance and fire smoke turn one and you have a hugely versatile weapons platform right in your opponent's grill.

the_scotsman wrote:
Man, now I really want to get my hands on that defiler. I have one on order but it is not coming fast enough!

What are your thoughts on using it as a purely shooting beast vs melee? My initial thoughts were to run it with Scourge+TL heavy bolter just to keep it super cheap, Warptime it up the field and use it like a higher-quality Maulerfiend, but now that its been pointed out that you can use Flickering Flames on that sucker, the twin las/BC/Havoc Launcher build seems pretty tempting. Prescience+Flickering Flames+daemon forge and you're dropping nine wounds on average vs T7 3+.

It does feel like you're largely wasting its melee potential though. Strength 16 dumpsterclaws and the single best model in the game for Warpflame Gargoyles will be sad going unused. Any time you get the first turn (with the +1 nearly every time with how elite we are) you're going to make your opponent very sad dropping every defensive buff on that guy, and any time you don't, he's harder to take down for his points than Magnus.

Don't forget that we have Blasphemous Machines. You can move it upfield without reducing it's shooting as long as you're willing to drop the CP on it.

Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Man, now I really want to get my hands on that defiler. I have one on order but it is not coming fast enough!

What are your thoughts on using it as a purely shooting beast vs melee? My initial thoughts were to run it with Scourge+TL heavy bolter just to keep it super cheap, Warptime it up the field and use it like a higher-quality Maulerfiend, but now that its been pointed out that you can use Flickering Flames on that sucker, the twin las/BC/Havoc Launcher build seems pretty tempting. Prescience+Flickering Flames+daemon forge and you're dropping nine wounds on average vs T7 3+.

It does feel like you're largely wasting its melee potential though. Strength 16 dumpsterclaws and the single best model in the game for Warpflame Gargoyles will be sad going unused. Any time you get the first turn (with the +1 nearly every time with how elite we are) you're going to make your opponent very sad dropping every defensive buff on that guy, and any time you don't, he's harder to take down for his points than Magnus.

Don't forget that we have Blasphemous Machines. You can move it upfield without reducing it's shooting as long as you're willing to drop the CP on it.

Yep, that was my thought. double-move with warptime, drop Blasphemous Machines and if my buffs all go off drop daemonforge for good measure. And if you dont get first turn, the defiler is pretty much the most efficient defense for the points heavy thing we've got, especially in range of changeling.

Keep in mind diabolic strength doesn't do anything for predators or vindicators. Their ranged weapons have a set strength.


Who would have thought that the defiler would have gone from something other chaos armies go "eh, I have better options" to us going "I will take 2 please" lol.

Yeah, the glamor of Tzeentch and smoke launchers make it very effective at moving up too and not worrying about getting shot at.

Here is a question, do the smoke launchers and glamor make it impossible to hit this guy in overwatch? Smoke say you must subtract 1 from all hit rolls from ranged weapons. Now that's a scary thought. -2 to hit, no overwatch, and super tough in close combat...

Nah, overwatch is always on a six, unless explicity stated.

Over watch isn’t modified it’s always a 6+

So, is there any consensus yet on the best way to prevent Magnus from getting blown off the board on turn 1 if we don't go first? All the defiler talk above suggests one possible answer is "present a target-rich environment" so that Magnus isn't the obvious choice for annihilation, although that can get very pricey very quickly. Are there any other thoughts?

The time has come for Giant Enemy Crab. I'm still on the fence on keep it cheap/give it twin las but I'm definitely feeling its inclusion (I'll magnetize and try it both ways).

My general TAC list seems to be taking shape. I like the 2500 version better than the 2k version, but I think both work.

At 2000 I've got 2 battalions

2x10 rubrics with soulreaper in 2x double combi bolter rhinos
30x tzaangors with brayhorn and blades

Ahriman on Disc
Termie sorc with familiar

double butcher cannon contemptor
Defiler with twin las and scourge

Daemon battalion

Fateskimmer
changeling

15x pinks w/icon
10x brims
10x brims

exalted flamer

at 2.5k I add a foot exalt, 5x SOTs with Hellfyre and Soulreaper, and 6x regular flamers, dropping a couple tzaangors to make points.

good, flexible list with 9x CPs where I can either deep strike a load of stuff into a gunline or set up multiple layers of defense against a fast assault list. Even against Reaperspam Meta Nonsense the intercept stratagem isn't all that effective, only takes out 3 tzaangors on average, and a whole boatload of T3 3+ wounds is surprisingly a really amazing matchup for our massive amounts of low strength high AP single damage firepower.

That's what I thought on overwatch, I just had never considered popping smoke and charging with a vehicle before.

As for Magnus, I don't think even a target rich environment will save him, people simply know to shoot magnus now as a gut reaction to seeing him.

Changling still helps (6+++), but really there isn't a good option except to expect the big shots to be incoming and plan on healing him asap (thanks Temporal distortion!) Assuming he survives first turn.

Has anyone considered taking 2 deamon princes? I realized this morning that it you take a thosand sons one with the warlord trait otherworldly presence and a deamon prince one with the impossible robe you get 2 powerful casters that can hit hard as nails with dual talons and they both get 3++ saves. Khorne deamon princes have nothing on these 2 beasts of change.

Maybe target saturation would work. 2 deamon princes. Magnus. Defiler. Exalted sorcerer and normal sorcerer. Fill the rest with bodies, pink horrors / cultists / rubrics if you want to be "fluffy". That's 4 cc monsters, one that can also be ranged beast mode. Bodies that's can act as alpha strike protection and objective holders. And enough psychic powers to make an eldar player jealous.

God I love this codex. Anyone who puts it on the same level as Grey knights is not looking at the same codex as I am.

Brian888 wrote:
So, is there any consensus yet on the best way to prevent Magnus from getting blown off the board on turn 1 if we don't go first? All the defiler talk above suggests one possible answer is "present a target-rich environment" so that Magnus isn't the obvious choice for annihilation, although that can get very pricey very quickly. Are there any other thoughts?

Plop changeling next to him, hope your opponent doesn't have the 28-ish BS3+ lascannons it takes on average to bring him down, and if he does, chalk it up to bad luck and play on?

Thousand Sons alpha-strike of Doom:

- Ahriman on Disc. (move 12" and advance)
- Daemon Prince /w Wings, 2x Malefic Talons, Dark Matter Crystal. (move 12" and advance)
- Sorcerer in Terminator Armour /w Helm of the Third Eye, Familiar. (deepstrike)

- 25x Tzaangors /w Brayhorn (Webway infiltration/deepstrike)
- 25x Tzaangors /w Brayhorn (Webway infiltration/deepstrike)
- 20x Rubric Marines /w 2x Soulreaper Cannons. (turn 1 deepstrike via DMC.)

- 10x Scarab Occult Terminators /w 2 Soulreaper Cannons, 2 Helfyre Missile Racks. (deepstrike)
- 1x Tzaangor Shaman. (move 12" and advance)
- 1x Mutalith Vortex Beast.

2000 points, 2 CP remaining ( ), and 84 model's 9,01" away from your opponents deploymentzone in turn 1.
Legal in matched play since only 4/9 units begin the game in reserve, the Rubrics, while deepstriking on turn 1 via DMC, is deployed on the table.

works great, until you dont get first turn and 20 rubrics are standing between your characters and an enemy gunline. Doesn't take too many WOM-bots, basilisks or dark reapers to get through 20 rubrics.

I feel like the reason you see a ton of super duper deep strike bomb alpha strike lists in middle tables at events, and more balanced lists taking the top slots, is probably because alpha strike is much less reliant on player skill and much more reliant on winning that sweet sweet first turn roll.

I am personally not a fan of deep striking our stuff suddenly, the game I played last night I didn't deep strike a single thing, I wanted as many targets on the board as I could.

It's just too easy to block the alpha strike, which is good, to try and focus an entire list on it. If you don't get the 1st Turn where does that leave you?

Azuza001 wrote:
If you don't get the 1st Turn where does that leave you?

One quick loss and a rematch?

 MinscS2 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
If you don't get the 1st Turn where does that leave you?

One quick loss and a rematch?

Lol ok that was funny. That's one point for you.

If I was going to do a deep strike attack it would have to be something tactical, like a squad of rubrics for double tap Inferno bolters. Then if you get charged you can use the crystal to back out and re-double tap. But other than that, I just don't see a good reason for us to keep our units off the field. I could see deep striking pinks in or flamers for support, those things with a tzeentch Herald for support are pretty effective.

I wonder what's more cost effective / useful? 30 Pinks with Herald and Flickering flames or 20 rubrics? Obviously rubrics cost more, but it's worth math hammering out. 318 vs 413. You can drop rubrics to 15 for the same cost. Hmmm.

How are you planning to deal with tanks / knights?

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
How are you planning to deal with tanks / knights?

I faced a knight a couple games ago, I dealt with it by slowing it down for a couple turns with Ahriman casting Doombolt, suicided a nearly-dead daemon prince at it taking off about a half dozen wounds, then finally a round of lascannons from a twin las-brute and a predator and a squad of rubrics double tapping with VOTLW finished it off.

Sounds messy, but it was the bottom of turn 3 and I was basically cobbling together what I had to take it out after the bulk of the fighting had been done. in general lascannons of any variety are optimal for taking knights down, and we've got some pretty solid sources of lascannons.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
How are you planning to deal with tanks / knights?

Don't really have many (any) Knights in my area, but on top of my head:

Diabolic Strenght on the Prince.
General MS-spamm from psychic powers.
VotLW on Tzaangors/Rubrics/SOT's should all do the trick.

Vehicles with T7 and below can be downed with pure weight off fire/attacks.

My last game was with my World Eaters and I barely had any anti-tank other than fists.
I was up against sisters with 9 vehicles (3 Exorcists and 6 Immolators), and I quickly found that simply keeping his tanks in combat (while slowly killing them) did the trick.

With that said, I didn't post this list as a "look, the next winner-list is here!", but more as a "lul, look at how easily we can DS most of our army in 2000 pts."

I have never faced a knight so I don't know personally how to deal with it, but other tanks as I said above our defilers will giggle like school girls once we start casting buffs on it. Hitting on 3's, rerolling 1's, wounding on 2's, and using reroll spell / cp to make the most out of the damage output from its dual laz. And you still get to fire it's battle cannon.

Personal Favorite; I have run this list 3 times so far and quite enjoy it-

Ahriman
Exalted on foot (helm of third eye)
Exalted on foot (dark matter crystal)
20 man unit of rubrics with 4 warp flamers and 2 soul reapers, and warpflame pistol
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
Mutalith
Forgefiend (no plasma face)
Defiler (havoc launcher, twin heavy bolter)
Maulerfiend (Lash tenderils)

Played it three times, got 2 wins, 1 Loss, not to shabby.

List runs really well, forces your opponent into D2+ overload considering how much needs D2 to be killed with any level of efficency.

Played it against a khorne marine/daemon list, a sallies MSU spam list, and an Ad Mech list, he admittedly only took 3 of the Dakka-bots....which have slowed damage output for their cost.

Won against the khorne mixed list and the ad mech lists, lost to the sallies. He had a very good list structure and my spell casting *HATED* me that game.

Ahriman21 wrote:
Personal Favorite; I have run this list 3 times so far and quite enjoy it-

Ahriman
Exalted on foot (helm of third eye)
Exalted on foot (dark matter crystal)
20 man unit of rubrics with 4 warp flamers and 2 soul reapers, and warpflame pistol
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
10 man Rubric with soul reaper
Mutalith
Forgefiend (no plasma face)
Defiler (havoc launcher, twin heavy bolter)
Maulerfiend (Lash tenderils)

Played it three times, got 2 wins, 1 Loss, not to shabby.

List runs really well, forces your opponent into D2+ overload considering how much needs D2 to be killed with any level of efficency.

Played it against a khorne marine/daemon list, a sallies MSU spam list, and an Ad Mech list, he admittedly only took 3 of the Dakka-bots....which have slowed damage output for their cost.

Won against the khorne mixed list and the ad mech lists, lost to the sallies. He had a very good list structure and my spell casting *HATED* me that game.

That's pretty interesting, it's pretty close to the list I took this weekend in some respects. Was Ahriman on foot? What spells did you find you used the most? How did your defiler do?

Oh and I say you get 2 wins for tzeentch beating khorne, that guy has no style lol.

To clarify the big blob of rubrics deepstrikes with Weaver of Fates on the sorcerer.

On disc for Ahriman, Generally the defilers (all the daemon engines really) tend to do great work, they DO hit less....but do we really care?


I barely even notice, we have so many buffs to toss out, so many ways of force-multiplying, a Disco-Predator might be more impressive by itself for damage output....and then 1 las cannon hits it and hits out of commission.....

The daemon engines tend to not only last longer, get their saves more frequently (5++ invul) AND are guaranteed to get health back each turn. It creates a huge pain for your opponent to deal with and the tend to outlive tanks. add that to me having 4 of them in this list.... It tends to be a target overload in 2k games.

your defiler build confuses me, admittedly. The Havoc Launcher is just so underperforming, you may as well take the scourge which ups your melee by a ton, and then at that point, you've got yourself a melee build. And if you're going pure shooting, you want twin las every time.

With all your hqs on foot how do you get a guy out to Warptime the rubrics? I'd swap one exalt for a termie sorc. The crystal one, and leave it on him, so you can guarantee he'll be in position to use it on the rubrics if someone closes with them the turn after you drop them in.

are your 10 man squads in rhinos? what's the mutalith for here?

So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.

I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.

SilverAlien wrote:
So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.

I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.

I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.

Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.

the_scotsman wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.

I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.

I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.

Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.

Yeah, it's spears or bust for melee.

the_scotsman wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.

I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.

I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.

Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.

Spears = kill tanks
Chainswords = kill light infantry

CS is slightly better than spears against single wound MEQ and a good bit better against GEQ.

If 9 w/ shaman and prescience support make it into combat they'll kill 17 GEQ. Spears would kill 10 or 11.

You'd probably get more mileage out of a mutalith giving them AP1 and/or +1S as well since the force multiplier is 50% greater. They'd still be worse at hurting tanks, but if you need to fill an infantry killing role they could be quite handy.