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SilverAlien wrote:
So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.

I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.

For melee Enlightened I'd always go for the spears.
Spears allows them to kill tanks/monsters/characters, while Chainswords allows them to...kill light infantry, which they're already pretty good at with spears, and are even better at with bows.
So basically I'm saying, if you want to go after light infantry, give them bows, not chainswords.

As for Spears vs. Bows, I couldn't decide (both options are good but in entirely different ways) so I opted to get 9 of each.

the_scotsman wrote:
your defiler build confuses me, admittedly. The Havoc Launcher is just so underperforming, you may as well take the scourge which ups your melee by a ton, and then at that point, you've got yourself a melee build. And if you're going pure shooting, you want twin las every time.

With all your hqs on foot how do you get a guy out to Warptime the rubrics? I'd swap one exalt for a termie sorc. The crystal one, and leave it on him, so you can guarantee he'll be in position to use it on the rubrics if someone closes with them the turn after you drop them in.

are your 10 man squads in rhinos? what's the mutalith for here?

So the 10 men units begin on the table, usually. No rhinos for this list, cant afford it. Generally I have found they survive well enough but if theres a paritcularly brutal list they will hug cover and soak shots.

usually my local FLGS plays tactical objectives, most of those will require you to move out anyway so me getting clsoer isnt a partiularly big deal, I have never had an issue getting in range for warp time and dark matter crystal. as of yet anyway!

The terminator sorcerer would also be an idea I could swap for, most definitely.

The Defiler is more or less a tough nut to crack with "decent" shooting, I cant afford the Las cannon on it in this current list build (Also built it with the heavy bolter) its putting out huge numbers of shots for relatively low cost, and I keep getting good hits with the cannon, 4+ to hit re-rolling 1's aint awful.

To preface this I have NOT yet played against an army such as tank spam guard, anything below T8 I dont even worry about all that much. If its t8 with one model I can handle that. anything beyond that........This list will *probably* struggle, thank god for Vets of the Long War. So far the list has performed well.

The Mutalith is a bit of an oddity; I mainly use it as a melee buffer behind the line, an aura-pulse to dish out mortals (MSU spam is a regular thing with tons of lists in my meta so that pulse-mortal wound aura is phenomenal.) If it happens to make rubrics competent in melee? thats fine by me. Its super undercosted for what it can do and is legitimately hard to deal with if youve got 3 other daemon engines on the table so it has worked as of yet, though I definitely get the idea that there may be better options I am debating "what" exactly I can get for the 150 I have left over.

 MinscS2 wrote:


For melee Enlightened I'd always go for the spears.
Spears allows them to kill tanks/monsters/characters, while Chainswords allows them to...kill light infantry, which they're already pretty good at with spears, and are even better at with bows.
So basically I'm saying, if you want to go after light infantry, give them bows, not chainswords.

As for Spears vs. Bows, I couldn't decide (both options are good but in entirely different ways) so I opted to get 9 of each.

With only two S5 AP1 shots the bows are equivalent to spears at killing light infantry - worse than chainswords. I'm not advocating them as a top choice, but I just want to be rigorous about the analysis for those looking to fill a role.

Daedalus81 wrote:

With only two S5 AP1 shots the bows are equivalent to spears at killing light infantry - worse than chainswords. I'm not advocating them as a top choice, but I just want to be rigorous about the analysis for those looking to fill a role.

Yes the bows by themselves are worse, but then we add their 3 regular S4 attacks in close combat on top. You shoot and then you charge, with the chainswords you mostly just charge (beware the autopistols...)
We're comparing their performance in assault after all.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

With only two S5 AP1 shots the bows are equivalent to spears at killing light infantry - worse than chainswords. I'm not advocating them as a top choice, but I just want to be rigorous about the analysis for those looking to fill a role.

Yes the bows by themselves are worse, but then we add their 3 regular S4 attacks in close combat on top. You shoot and then you charge, with the chainswords you mostly just charge (beware the autopistols...)
We're comparing their performance in assault after all.

I would think you'd want to keep bows out of combat as much as possible, but then I remembered you can fly. So I suppose that is a legitimate consideration.

Hi, I'm starting a 1k sons army and had a question about the SoT loadout. Can the missile rack and the soulreaper be put on the same model? In the codex it just states that one Scarab can take the cannon and one Scarab can take the missiles, not another...

Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
So what are people thinking for melee enlightened? Chainsword+pistol nets you an extra melee attack each turn and a shooting attack, seems like a decent choice if you don't want to kill multiwound infantry/tanks.

I think I prefer them as a shooting unit myself, given I've got a fair number of melee units already in my list, but I was curious.

I don't think there's any contest, I'd never take them with chainswords. if I want them for melee, I'd take spears (but given how much I have to dedicate to buffing them, I think I'd usually go for Screamers instead as they're very similar and require less babysitting), if I want them for shooting, I'd take bows.

Taking chainswords feels like a waste of their fancy autowound roll thing.

Spears = kill tanks
Chainswords = kill light infantry

CS is slightly better than spears against single wound MEQ and a good bit better against GEQ.

If 9 w/ shaman and prescience support make it into combat they'll kill 17 GEQ. Spears would kill 10 or 11.

You'd probably get more mileage out of a mutalith giving them AP1 and/or +1S as well since the force multiplier is 50% greater. They'd still be worse at hurting tanks, but if you need to fill an infantry killing role they could be quite handy.

I guess my question is: what thousand sons list needs help clearing GEQ and single wound MEQ? Also, why would you not take Bows if you want that role? Its tanks that our basic troops struggle with, and its tanks that I'm primarily going to be focused on with nearly all the points I spend on non-psyker/troop units.

This is not to say Enlightened are particularly bad at the anti tank role. On the contrary, when buffed they're really solid. But I like screamers for a few reasons, both game-based and not:

1) Buffed by a model I'm already going to be taking (Fateskimmer, who gives me valuable tzeentch powers, good close combat, and a buff to my tzeentch shooting units) VS buffed by a different model I must spend 85 points on

2) Buffed by a spell I don't particularly need on anything else (Boon of Change) VS buffed by a spell that's highly valuable on many other units (prescience)

3) On a completely gameplay-unrelated note, I like the models better AND theyre far less expensive to collect because 1 screamer ~2 enlightened in terms of points and quality.

I do know that fully buffed up, enlightened are pretty much superior to screamers damage-wise per the point against all the targets they'll likely be hunting.

I think lots of enlightened are the correct answer; Many bows, and many spears! ;-)

to be fair they are a great, if fragile unit.

Alkorus wrote:
Hi, I'm starting a 1k sons army and had a question about the SoT loadout. Can the missile rack and the soulreaper be put on the same model? In the codex it just states that one Scarab can take the cannon and one Scarab can take the missiles, not another...

As far as I know yes, you can take both on ones model.

Ahriman21 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
your defiler build confuses me, admittedly. The Havoc Launcher is just so underperforming, you may as well take the scourge which ups your melee by a ton, and then at that point, you've got yourself a melee build. And if you're going pure shooting, you want twin las every time.

With all your hqs on foot how do you get a guy out to Warptime the rubrics? I'd swap one exalt for a termie sorc. The crystal one, and leave it on him, so you can guarantee he'll be in position to use it on the rubrics if someone closes with them the turn after you drop them in.

are your 10 man squads in rhinos? what's the mutalith for here?

So the 10 men units begin on the table, usually. No rhinos for this list, cant afford it. Generally I have found they survive well enough but if theres a paritcularly brutal list they will hug cover and soak shots.

usually my local FLGS plays tactical objectives, most of those will require you to move out anyway so me getting clsoer isnt a partiularly big deal, I have never had an issue getting in range for warp time and dark matter crystal. as of yet anyway!

The terminator sorcerer would also be an idea I could swap for, most definitely.

The Defiler is more or less a tough nut to crack with "decent" shooting, I cant afford the Las cannon on it in this current list build (Also built it with the heavy bolter) its putting out huge numbers of shots for relatively low cost, and I keep getting good hits with the cannon, 4+ to hit re-rolling 1's aint awful.

To preface this I have NOT yet played against an army such as tank spam guard, anything below T8 I dont even worry about all that much. If its t8 with one model I can handle that. anything beyond that........This list will *probably* struggle, thank god for Vets of the Long War. So far the list has performed well.

The Mutalith is a bit of an oddity; I mainly use it as a melee buffer behind the line, an aura-pulse to dish out mortals (MSU spam is a regular thing with tons of lists in my meta so that pulse-mortal wound aura is phenomenal.) If it happens to make rubrics competent in melee? thats fine by me. Its super undercosted for what it can do and is legitimately hard to deal with if youve got 3 other daemon engines on the table so it has worked as of yet, though I definitely get the idea that there may be better options I am debating "what" exactly I can get for the 150 I have left over.

Defiler with Lazer cannon and prescience and Flickering flames next to chaos deamon prince hits on 3's, rerolls 1's, and wounds all vehicles on 2's. Add another sorcerer there to cast the healing spell and the - 1 to hit or the +1 to invulnerable and it becomes very hard to kill and able to kill vehicles easy. I run mind that way with a forgefiend next to it as backup. That forces your opponent to either put a ton of shots into it and hope for the best, ignore it and lose a vehicle a turn, or try and get close and then be slaughtered by its great big crab claws of doom. If you can I would ask your opponent if he would be OK with you trying the hb's as Las cannons and give it a shot. I have not faced a guard or marine parking lot yet but the last game I played I did face 2 preds and 2 rhinos. Pred 1 got blown away by defiler turn 1, pred 2 did 4 wounds back that got healed then also died to defiler and forgefiend, then the rhinos ran away because they had no chance of surviving which they did not.

Guard tank armies will be a very tough matchup for tsons, I’d say we are genuinely strong against most other lists in the meta but t8 spam is just a very steep hill to climb, Magnus could do it but getting past screens and clever deployment is hard without the opponent taking a big chunk of his wounds off!

The other bad matchup is flyrant spam, -1 to cast and all that smite and then the stratagem that makes us roll that key power on d6!

Nasty...

Reading the community Tzaangor article and he mentions having your big squad of birds charge one unit so that you can pile into others. I was under the impression once you kill an enemy unit you can't pile in and tie down another unit that you had to stay at least 1" away?

 nintura wrote:
Reading the community Tzaangor article and he mentions having your big squad of birds charge one unit so that you can pile into others. I was under the impression once you kill an enemy unit you can't pile in and tie down another unit that you had to stay at least 1" away?

Not in the slightest. You are prevented from moving within 1" of an enemy unit when you move in the movement phase...but that's it.

Any other movement, piling in, consolidating, or exploding out of someone's tiny flesh cage eager to get your new Spawn pseudopods a-tentacleizin', allows you to freely move into melee combat with zero overwatch involved.

Of course, there is the consideration that you're not allowed to select someone you didn't declare a target of your charge to actually attack them, and if you do get within 1" then they can select that unit to fight in the fight phase, but if you're a scarab terminator and you're sure as heck not going to die or your target is a tank or something, then you do that thang.

This is why I've quite seriously been bringing reinforcement spawn with my lists, the ability to pop someone with Gift of Chaos and immediately summon the spawn into combat with a nearby unit with no overwatch is god damned amazing utility. Really the only thing holding that spell back was the 6" range (its 12" for us) and the unreliability, which you've got gaze of fate for, baby.

 nintura wrote:
Reading the community Tzaangor article and he mentions having your big squad of birds charge one unit so that you can pile into others. I was under the impression once you kill an enemy unit you can't pile in and tie down another unit that you had to stay at least 1" away?

No. Not at all.

What you cant do is fight a unit you didn't charge that turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd and the spawn thing sound ace.

Usually true as you can only fight a unit you’ve charged but the stratagem basically allows you to give that unit a second fight phase so the unit won’t technically have charged for the purposes of the second fight, you just treat it as a unit that fights after all the other units have fought.

So at the end of the fight phase you pile in your Tzaangors 3” and fight what’s in range.

Wait, so you can consolidate into a unit, but not fight, but they can then pick that unit to fight?

The stratagem activates at the end of the fight phase

Basically
Charge
Pile in
Fight
Consolidate
All units fight
Activate stratagem
Pile in
Fight

Guyver 3 wrote:
Guard tank armies will be a very tough matchup for tsons, I’d say we are genuinely strong against most other lists in the meta but t8 spam is just a very steep hill to climb, Magnus could do it but getting past screens and clever deployment is hard without the opponent taking a big chunk of his wounds off!

The other bad matchup is flyrant spam, -1 to cast and all that smite and then the stratagem that makes us roll that key power on d6!

Nasty...

I just handled a guard tank army with 12 enlightened with bows (auto wounding on 4s, hitting on 2s with 2 shots each=lots of wounds getting through even when people get to roll saves), some predators, and a dreadnaught, tanks have always been annoying for TS but they arent nearly as they were pre codex...also watching a guard player quietly rage inside as their tanks got killed by bows and arrows was amazing

That’s good to know, I’m building 6 bow enlightened tonight and I’m tempted to get 6 more! Haven’t playtested enlightened yet!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you run a shaman with them? How durable did you find them?

Guyver 3 wrote:
Usually true as you can only fight a unit you’ve charged but the stratagem basically allows you to give that unit a second fight phase so the unit won’t technically have charged for the purposes of the second fight, you just treat it as a unit that fights after all the other units have fought.

So at the end of the fight phase you pile in your Tzaangors 3” and fight what’s in range.

Is this right?

Captyn_Bob wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:
Usually true as you can only fight a unit you’ve charged but the stratagem basically allows you to give that unit a second fight phase so the unit won’t technically have charged for the purposes of the second fight, you just treat it as a unit that fights after all the other units have fought.

So at the end of the fight phase you pile in your Tzaangors 3” and fight what’s in range.

Is this right?

No, it isn't. A unit that charged is still considered to have charged that turn when they fight again because it's still the same fight phase.

Mesokhornee wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:
Guard tank armies will be a very tough matchup for tsons, I’d say we are genuinely strong against most other lists in the meta but t8 spam is just a very steep hill to climb, Magnus could do it but getting past screens and clever deployment is hard without the opponent taking a big chunk of his wounds off!

The other bad matchup is flyrant spam, -1 to cast and all that smite and then the stratagem that makes us roll that key power on d6!

Nasty...

I just handled a guard tank army with 12 enlightened with bows (auto wounding on 4s, hitting on 2s with 2 shots each=lots of wounds getting through even when people get to roll saves), some predators, and a dreadnaught, tanks have always been annoying for TS but they arent nearly as they were pre codex...also watching a guard player quietly rage inside as their tanks got killed by bows and arrows was amazing

Where are you getting the Auto-wounding on 4s?

Thanks!

Prescience and shaman

Those divining spear enlightened are deadly

Rubric sorcerer cast glamour of tzeentch
Dp cast prescience and warp time
Shaman +1 to hit and cast weaver of fates
Herald of tzeench +1 inv stratagem (+1 st if in range)
Mutilath beast +1 ap
9 enlightened

Those enlightened are now
-1 to hit
Move 24”
Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1’s
Every 4+ is an auto wound
St5 ap-2 2d
T4 3++ 2w
And they can fight twice!

And they are cheap!

Guyver 3 wrote:
Those divining spear enlightened are deadly

Rubric sorcerer cast glamour of tzeentch
Dp cast prescience and warp time
Shaman +1 to hit and cast weaver of fates
Herald of tzeench +1 inv stratagem (+1 st if in range)
Mutilath beast +1 ap
9 enlightened

Those enlightened are now
-1 to hit
Move 24”
Hitting on 2+ rerolling 1’s
Every 4+ is an auto wound
St5 ap-2 2d
T4 3++ 2w
And they can fight twice!

And they are cheap!

Yeah, but your 135 point unit still needs a Demon Prince, Sorcerer, Mutalith, Shaman and Herald to buff them, and apart from that you are spending 3 CP's and a detachment for your tzeench daemons.

Not that much of an issue

My rough list
Dp wings
Ahriman on disc

Shaman
5 Scarabs

5 Rubrics
5 rubrics
30 Tzaangors

9 enlightened
Mutilath

Herald on disc
Herald on disc

20 pink horrors
20 pink horrors
20 pink horrors

The characters aren’t just buffing the one unit with good deployment and deep striking the majority of the units will be buffed while also protecting the characters and still get to hit hard in either shooting or fight phase!

Guyver 3 wrote:
Not that much of an issue

My rough list
Dp wings
Ahriman on disc

Shaman
5 Scarabs

5 Rubrics
5 rubrics
30 Tzaangors

9 enlightened
Mutilath

Herald on disc
Herald on disc

20 pink horrors
20 pink horrors
20 pink horrors

Hmm. I still think you are betting a lot on that Enlightened bomb. And I don't think you can use Warp Surge on the Enlightened. Regards

pismakron wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:
Not that much of an issue

My rough list
Dp wings
Ahriman on disc

Shaman
5 Scarabs

5 Rubrics
5 rubrics
30 Tzaangors

9 enlightened
Mutilath

Herald on disc
Herald on disc

20 pink horrors
20 pink horrors
20 pink horrors

Hmm. I still think you are betting a lot on that Enlightened bomb. And I don't think you can use Warp Surge on the Enlightened. Regards

Tzaangors are not daemons and thus unaffected by warp surge (+1 to invul saves for daemons)

the -1 AP from enlightened is only CC attacks I believe.

Ecdain wrote:


Tzaangors are not daemons and thus unaffected by warp surge (+1 to invul saves for daemons)

Correct.
Enlightened on the other hand, are daemons, as are anything that rides disc's.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Ecdain wrote:


Tzaangors are not daemons and thus unaffected by warp surge (+1 to invul saves for daemons)

Correct.
Enlightened on the other hand, are daemons, as are anything that rides disc's.

However as they are not faction daemons i do believe that the FAQ means that the daemon stratagems won't be allowed to target them though.