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I think lots of enlightened are the correct answer; Many bows, and many spears! ;-)

to be fair they are a great, if fragile unit.

 Dont_Know wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

Ecdain wrote:


Tzaangors are not daemons and thus unaffected by warp surge (+1 to invul saves for daemons)

Correct.
Enlightened on the other hand, are daemons, as are anything that rides disc's.

However as they are not faction daemons i do believe that the FAQ means that the daemon stratagems won't be allowed to target them though.

Right. I have a feeling that this will eventually apply to Flickering Flames, too.

Ahriman21 wrote:
I think lots of enlightened are the correct answer; Many bows, and many spears! ;-)

to be fair they are a great, if fragile unit.

They are 15 pts. 17 with bow. That's for 2W, T4, 5++ and fly. They are crazy crazy good and definitely not fragile for their cost. I think people don't get how many of these guys we can field. A unit of 6 is 100 pts! This is crazy! Even units of 9 with bows nets at 153 pts. We can add 3 units of 9 for 27 flying models with 2W each and invul save for 460 pts! Which is bad for my wallet I suppose :(

I saw some bow enlightened get played last time I got a game in, and wasn't crazy impressed. They were paired with a mostly tzaangor-based list, and ran a unit of 9 with spears and a following shaman, with a big tzaangor blob deep striking and double attacking in.

The thousand son player got second turn, and all the anti-infantry weaponry his opponent had just chopped the enlightened up. Shaman survived thanks to character protection (he was behind some anti deep strike cultists) but died trying to get over to the tzaangors to buff them after they jumped in.

I think overall they're good, but they're probably not the crazy powerhouse the internet is making them out to be, precisely because when you're on the internet tends towards liking things you can set up like:

Unit X is amazing!

They only cost 150 points for a maxed out unit!
Then you take character Y (who costs 120 points but whatever)
And character Z (who costs 180 points but whatever)
and psychic power A
and stratagem B which costs 2CP
and psychic power C to keep them from dying (which is WC8 and needs a psyker from a separate faction detachment but whatever)
oh and aura D from character V from ANOTHER separate faction detachment

And they're killing 6 land raiders a turn, rerolling 2s to hit and rerolling 2s to wound, 12" move with fly and 2++ rerollable invuln save! They're COMPLETELY BROKEN!

....and then because the listed combo requries 700 points of auras, 2cps and 3 psychic powers to cast successfully, you never really see it winning any major tournaments.

Put another way, I think Enlightened might be the Thousand Sons version of Bullgryns.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Ahriman21 wrote:
I think lots of enlightened are the correct answer; Many bows, and many spears! ;-)

to be fair they are a great, if fragile unit.

They are 15 pts. 17 with bow. That's for 2W, T4, 5++ and fly. They are crazy crazy good and definitely not fragile for their cost. I think people don't get how many of these guys we can field. A unit of 6 is 100 pts! This is crazy! Even units of 9 with bows nets at 153 pts. We can add 3 units of 9 for 27 flying models with 2W each and invul save for 460 pts! Which is bad for my wallet I suppose :(

Plus one or two shamans to keep them buffed. And then people are hedging their bets that they will take care of all the enemy tanks and take no other anti-tank.

T4 W2 5++ seems durable, but when they're the only big threat on the table weight of fire will bring them down fast. Especially since these units will not be hiding with such a large footprint.




Automatically Appended Next Post:


Exactly this.

the_scotsman wrote:

And they're killing 6 land raiders a turn, rerolling 2s to hit and rerolling 2s to wound, 12" move with fly and 2++ rerollable invuln save! They're COMPLETELY BROKEN!

....and then because the listed combo requries 700 points of auras, 2cps and 3 psychic powers to cast successfully, you never really see it winning any major tournaments.

Put another way, I think Enlightened might be the Thousand Sons version of Bullgryns.

Or Gretchin, which has been claimed to be the best of all index units when buffed by a banner-nob, dual runtherdz, Ghaz, weirdboy, a KFF-mek and a Painboy. And they are ONLY 90 POINTS FOR A FULL SQUAD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Questions:

1) Are horrors worth it in a TS detachment?

2) How to run cultists? I plan on running 10 man squads with CCWs to embark in the rhinos where my rubrics will initially deploy. Is this a waste?

3) What HQ choices are worth it apart from DP and Ahriman?

4) How do people here plan on deepstriking Tzaangors?

pismakron wrote:

Questions:

1) Are horrors worth it in a TS detachment?

In my opinion, no. Just summon or bring a patrol.

2) How to run cultists? I plan on running 10 man squads with CCWs to embark in the rhinos where my rubrics will initially deploy. Is this a waste?

Cultists don't do much in groups of 10. Especially in a rhino. They're there to take up space and buffer your important units from deepstrikers.

3) What HQ choices are worth it apart from DP and Ahriman?

Sorcerer termie is great since he deepstrikes and has the familiar. I'm ok with the exalteds, too, even if they're not optimal.

4) How do people here plan on deepstriking Tzaangors?

Stratagem only if I do. DMC I save for more important squads.

Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.

I missed something? They are really in the book.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.

I missed something? They are really in the book.

They are in the book to summon. They don't have the thousand sons keyword.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.

I missed something? They are really in the book.

They are in the book to summon. They don't have the thousand sons keyword.

I will have to go back to double check when I'm at home, but if this is the case then it really kills the last thoughts I had about this not be a rushed codex. :(

Daedalus81 wrote:

pismakron wrote:

Questions:

1) Are horrors worth it in a TS detachment?

In my opinion, no. Just summon or bring a patrol.

2) How to run cultists? I plan on running 10 man squads with CCWs to embark in the rhinos where my rubrics will initially deploy. Is this a waste?

Cultists don't do much in groups of 10. Especially in a rhino. They're there to take up space and buffer your important units from deepstrikers.

3) What HQ choices are worth it apart from DP and Ahriman?

Sorcerer termie is great since he deepstrikes and has the familiar. I'm ok with the exalteds, too, even if they're not optimal.

4) How do people here plan on deepstriking Tzaangors?

Stratagem only if I do. DMC I save for more important squads.

1) You mean a tzeench daemons patrol detachment with horrors and heralds? Is that worth it?

2) Yes, I guess so. It was also mostly to utilize the rhinos once my rubrics has disembarked.

3) The sorcerer terminal is nice, I guess. I just don't like the CSM model, I may need to do a recast of the scarab boss nob...

4) Yes, but how do you ensure that the Tzaangor blob gets into combat? Warptime? Bray horn? It just seems like a bit of a gamble with only a single mob and no Ere We Go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

They are in the book to summon. They don't have the thousand sons keyword.

Oh yeah, I can see that. That actually makes some sense.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Horrors can't be taken in a TS detachment as they aren't a thousand Sons. Saying that, if you aren't making use of the psychic range, and already have stratagems unlocked, they are a super cheap troop for netting CP. Perhaps alongside heralds or super cheap renegade commanders.
You can make a 140pt battalion to give CP and a line of chaff to shield against t1 charges.

I missed something? They are really in the book.

They are in the book to summon. They don't have the thousand sons keyword.

I will have to go back to double check when I'm at home, but if this is the case then it really kills the last thoughts I had about this not be a rushed codex. :(

Identical to the daemon entries in the CSM and DG book.

WHat is it with people expecting this codex to be somehow different from all other csm codexes somehow and declaring it a hack job when it isn't??

Exactly.

As much as I'd like for Tzeentch-demons to be an actual part of the codex/army without having to revert to summoning/separate detatchments, at least it's consistent with CSM and DG.

So are people really leaning towards enlightened as the anti tank option? I get they have decent damage output, but it's still a melee unit even if it has fly, and fairly fragile one at that. You will need to do a fair amount of work to get them into combat with vehicles which will generally be sitting towards the back of an army, safely tucked away. I tried running DP as my anti tank option in a few DG and CSM lists and generally found it to be somewhat hard going, particularly if it ever became essential I take said tank down as soon as possible, and this strikes me as fairly similar.

Then again, I don't see many good options for psychic powers to do it, and our own vehicle options leave something to be desired.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Exactly.

As much as I'd like for Tzeentch-demons to be an actual part of the codex/army without having to revert to summoning/separate detatchments, at least it's consistent with CSM and DG.

At least Tzeentch detachments are A) super easy and B) provide very strong options to a thousand sons army. Gaze of fate is great. Flickering fire is great on daemon engines. Boon can be pretty good with certain units. Tzeentch daemons offer several solid mid-cost HQs and the cheapest troop units in the game, tied with Gretchins.

SilverAlien wrote:
So are people really leaning towards enlightened as the anti tank option? I get they have decent damage output, but it's still a melee unit even if it has fly, and fairly fragile one at that. You will need to do a fair amount of work to get them into combat with vehicles which will generally be sitting towards the back of an army, safely tucked away. I tried running DP as my anti tank option in a few DG and CSM lists and generally found it to be somewhat hard going, particularly if it ever became essential I take said tank down as soon as possible, and this strikes me as fairly similar.

Then again, I don't see many good options for psychic powers to do it, and our own vehicle options leave something to be desired.

Nope, I am in the defiler camp. It does require a second detachment with a changecaster and an exalted sorcerer to run optimally but if you have to stick with a single helper unit a deamon prince can do it without needing a deamon detachment.

Defiler w/ laz cannons + prescience + Flickering flames + exalted reroll = awesome.

I must point out some things here. Some have suggested that it's a waste to put all eggs in one basket. That's true, you should not just run a single defiler. I am currently running 2 and a forgefiend as my heavy Support. If a defiler dies the other is there to help. If I need numbers of shots vs lighter vehicles the forgefiend can totally handle this no matter if you go ectoplasam or hellfire autocannons. And the exalted reroll 1's effects them all, and you can spread you spells around if you want. Turn one cast on defiler 1 and use the deamonforge ability on the 2nd one. It makes an effective combo team for holding the board and dealing with other vehicles pretty easily.

Of course it's also crazy expensive. My loadout consists of an exalted sorcerer, a regular sorcerer, a changecaster, 2 defilers, and a forgefiend for 883 points and has a lot of moving parts. But really those parts don't actually move, you can summon the changecaster in first turn so you again don't need a deamon detachment, and every model has a job.

Exalteds roll is to buff and heal
Sorcerer roll is to make it harder to hurt your units (this roll can be dropped if your low on points but I like the ability to do so)
Changecasters roll is to buff with flames and cast gaze of fate to get an extra reroll, allowing you a better chance to get everything off or help make sure your doing damage with your shots.

OK done preaching.

why Defilers? Predators do more damage output and cost less.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
why Defilers? Predators do more damage output and cost less.

For durability.

Defilers can be buffed to decent level of damage (Prescience, re-roll 1 and Flickering flames / Daemonforge) while also being really tanky (5++, 14 wounds) AND dangerous in melee if it comes to that. It's a lot harder to alpha strike a Defiler than a Predator, and each wound healed (though his natural regeneration or spells) is more valuable.

I'll probably try a duo of Defilers in my upcoming games.

 Nym wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
why Defilers? Predators do more damage output and cost less.

For durability.

Defilers can be buffed to decent level of damage (Prescience, re-roll 1 and Flickering flames / Daemonforge) while also being really tanky (5++, 14 wounds) AND dangerous in melee if it comes to that. It's a lot harder to alpha strike a Defiler than a Predator, and each wound healed (though his natural regeneration or spells) is more valuable.

I'll probably try a duo of Defilers in my upcoming games.

And yet a defiler looks so mediocre it hurts :( First, predator can also benefit from prescience and reroll 1's. It can't get flickering flames or daemonforge but it can get the predator stratagem (if you pay 600 pts for three of course). And I would argue that with the shooting output a predator has, prescience and reroll 1's get more milleage on it than on the defiler. A predator is also way more customizable towards anti infantry or anti tank than the defiler.

My problem with the defiler is that it doesn't seem to do anything well enough as is. Jack of all trades doesn't cut it in competitive warhammer. Because we pay points for a little bit of everything, while other units pay much less point to do only one thing, but do it much better.

First it's the weapon load. I don't understand it. The battle cannon strives and fails to find an identity, sure you can get 6 attacks but you can also get 1 and then miss on it. Range 72" is really redundant. And after the battle cannon, what is your 200 pt monster left with? A reaper autocannon which honestly is not any better than a TL heavy bolter or a lascannon. That's it. Heavy flamer is both very expensive and not really required on a machine with so much damage output. If you are worrying about close combat, just go and buy a cheap scourge and let the defiler reign death upon everything it touches. For such a beast with this size and statline, you should have more than two long range weapons.

Then it's the whole 4+ to hit part. It's terribly painful. What's the point to have str 16 and 3 damage attacks in close combat, if you are failing to connect half of the time? For 200+ pts, you really should get more.

But ultimately, where the defiler fails for me is that it doesn't really know what it is supposed to be doing in the field. Is it a gunline immobile platform? Then why give it close combat power and a heavy flamer? Is it a cc machine? Then why do I have to pay for a battle cannon? Is it a move up the field/mainstay unit? Then why does it shoot on a 5+ if it moves? (A 5+ to hit for 200+ pts... jesus).

The defiler doesn't really have an identity, we pay premium cost for all the things it can potentially do semi-competently, but in the end it will only ever do one of those things. If I want CC, I will buy 2 hellbrutes with fists or a maulerfiend rather than 1 defiler and get more CC out of it. If I want shooting, I can buy a predator for 50 pts cheaper and get more shooting out of it. Sure, the fist hellbrutes cannot shoot and the las-predator cannot defend itself in CC, but that's now what wins games. The extra shooting or extra hth power for the same points is what wins games. And that's my ultimate problem with the defiler.

It appears you're projecting the defilers old issues with what it does now.

Compare the most common shooting defiler to its closest analogue, the auto/Las predator.

AC/Las unbuffed does .5 more damage to standard vehicles than Las/BC defiler. It costs 25 points more for 3 wounds, 5++, and all the melee capability of the defiler with the scourge.

Now compare his more melee build to a pure melee beast, the maulerfiend. Lasher/fist mauler does solidly less damage in melee versus everything than the defiler. Defiler gets 2 wounds extra, and hey, it gets a TL heavy Bolter and battle cannon as a cherry on top, all for something like 40pts.

Hardly the premium it used to pay. And why do you need to choose just melee or shooting? If theres a valuable target, pop 2 cp and you can move or warptime him and chunk vehicles for huge damage. Just move him forwards and if it gets in, use it for melee.

the_scotsman wrote:
It appears you're projecting the defilers old issues with what it does now.

Compare the most common shooting defiler to its closest analogue, the auto/Las predator.

AC/Las unbuffed does .5 more damage to standard vehicles than Las/BC defiler. It costs 25 points more for 3 wounds, 5++, and all the melee capability of the defiler with the scourge.

Now compare his more melee build to a pure melee beast, the maulerfiend. Lasher/fist mauler does solidly less damage in melee versus everything than the defiler. Defiler gets 2 wounds extra, and hey, it gets a TL heavy Bolter and battle cannon as a cherry on top, all for something like 40pts.

Hardly the premium it used to pay. And why do you need to choose just melee or shooting? If theres a valuable target, pop 2 cp and you can move or warptime him and chunk vehicles for huge damage. Just move him forwards and if it gets in, use it for melee.

But if you move him up the field every turn, then you shoot on a 5+ :( If you don't, you will never be in charge range of that valuable target you want to charge. That's what I mean by identity crisis.

And I would like to see the math behind the AC/Las pred comparison. In my head it's very difficult to calculate due to how inconsistent the battle cannon is. And AC/las pred is not a really good option, given that the predator autocannon is only 10 pts cheaper than a TL lascannon and -in my opinion- is significantly worse. With Las/TL las predator you have consistent damage output. You always have 4 shots, you hit on a 3+, you always have high strength, high AP and the only variable is the d6 damage. With defiler...it's a hit or miss really. Maybe you get the magic turn of 6 battle cannon shots and hit with 5 of them, or you will get 1 shot and 1 las shot and fail to hit with both. It can sure give you very powerful turn but also might really do nothing. And that kills it for me.

Now where the defiler is actually great is if you use it as a guard dog for gunline based armies (if TS even have such a thing). In a gunline list, the main problem will be that a fast army can charge you and lock you very quick (sometimes even turn 1!). But with two defilers spread among your gunlines, just used normally for shooting (so no move), you have two great guard dogs creating nice null zones where the enemy really has to think twice before assaulting anything near them.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It appears you're projecting the defilers old issues with what it does now.

Compare the most common shooting defiler to its closest analogue, the auto/Las predator.

AC/Las unbuffed does .5 more damage to standard vehicles than Las/BC defiler. It costs 25 points more for 3 wounds, 5++, and all the melee capability of the defiler with the scourge.

Now compare his more melee build to a pure melee beast, the maulerfiend. Lasher/fist mauler does solidly less damage in melee versus everything than the defiler. Defiler gets 2 wounds extra, and hey, it gets a TL heavy Bolter and battle cannon as a cherry on top, all for something like 40pts.

Hardly the premium it used to pay. And why do you need to choose just melee or shooting? If theres a valuable target, pop 2 cp and you can move or warptime him and chunk vehicles for huge damage. Just move him forwards and if it gets in, use it for melee.

But if you move him up the field every turn, then you shoot on a 5+ :( If you don't, you will never be in charge range of that valuable target you want to charge. That's what I mean by identity crisis.

And I would like to see the math behind the AC/Las pred comparison. In my head it's very difficult to calculate due to how inconsistent the battle cannon is. And AC/las pred is not a really good option, given that the predator autocannon is only 10 pts cheaper than a TL lascannon and -in my opinion- is significantly worse. With Las/TL las predator you have consistent damage output. You always have 4 shots, you hit on a 3+, you always have high strength, high AP and the only variable is the d6 damage. With defiler...it's a hit or miss really. Maybe you get the magic turn of 6 battle cannon shots and hit with 5 of them, or you will get 1 shot and 1 las shot and fail to hit with both. It can sure give you very powerful turn but also might really do nothing. And that kills it for me.

Now where the defiler is actually great is if you use it as a guard dog for gunline based armies (if TS even have such a thing). In a gunline list, the main problem will be that a fast army can charge you and lock you very quick (sometimes even turn 1!). But with two defilers spread among your gunlines, just used normally for shooting (so no move), you have two great guard dogs creating nice null zones where the enemy really has to think twice before assaulting anything near them.

If you're investing the points to give him a TL las, and there's something you need to shoot lascannons at, it's generally worthwhile to invest the cp to pop blasphemous and daemonforge and hit on rerolling 4s. If there's not, advance and pop smoke.

The predauto in my opinion is pretty much superior to the TLlas turret unless your opponents army list has a lot of T8. vs T73+ standard vehicle hull, the Tlas does .5 more damage on average, but the Predauto starts to blow it away the second you come up against a T6 or less vehicle or a vehicle with invulns. Besides, talking about unreliability - the Tlas has 1d6 damage, the Predauto has 2D3 shots and flat 3 damage. It's more reliable. I like the Predauto/2las build best because it diversifies my damage output to where I'm not at a significant advantage if I'm not facing just T7 3+ no invulns. Tlas does 25% more damage against T7 3+, predauto does 80% more damage against dark eldar vehicles, light vehicles, ork trukks, harlequin starweavers, etc.

Also, FYI, I think you might be thinking the defiler has one lascannon. It's got two las shots.

The other thing for me with Predators is that when I invest in a predator, I don't need to just invest in buff units (which will be the same units on both predators or defilers) I also need to invest in constant bubblewrap because the second its in melee with anything, gretchins, guardsmen, anything, its over. It's done for the game. Defilers meanwhile deal a consistent 2.5 wounds per turn against pretty much absolutely everything in the game, from guardsmen to knights. You can tie them up, but the only advantage youve gained is that you now dictate what they're punching rather than them getting to shoot and potentially punch whatever they want. With preds, youve dropped their damage to zero, essentially for the game unless your opponent can fall back and peel for them.

the_scotsman wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

If you're investing the points to give him a TL las, and there's something you need to shoot lascannons at, it's generally worthwhile to invest the cp to pop blasphemous and daemonforge and hit on rerolling 4s. If there's not, advance and pop smoke.

The predauto in my opinion is pretty much superior to the TLlas turret unless your opponents army list has a lot of T8. vs T73+ standard vehicle hull, the Tlas does .5 more damage on average, but the Predauto starts to blow it away the second you come up against a T6 or less vehicle or a vehicle with invulns. Besides, talking about unreliability - the Tlas has 1d6 damage, the Predauto has 2D3 shots and flat 3 damage. It's more reliable. I like the Predauto/2las build best because it diversifies my damage output to where I'm not at a significant advantage if I'm not facing just T7 3+ no invulns. Tlas does 25% more damage against T7 3+, predauto does 80% more damage against dark eldar vehicles, light vehicles, ork trukks, harlequin starweavers, etc.

Also, FYI, I think you might be thinking the defiler has one lascannon. It's got two las shots.

The other thing for me with Predators is that when I invest in a predator, I don't need to just invest in buff units (which will be the same units on both predators or defilers) I also need to invest in constant bubblewrap because the second its in melee with anything, gretchins, guardsmen, anything, its over. It's done for the game. Defilers meanwhile deal a consistent 2.5 wounds per turn against pretty much absolutely everything in the game, from guardsmen to knights. You can tie them up, but the only advantage youve gained is that you now dictate what they're punching rather than them getting to shoot and potentially punch whatever they want. With preds, youve dropped their damage to zero, essentially for the game unless your opponent can fall back and peel for them.

I was indeed not aware of the double las on the defiler. This changes the landscape a lot. Also, my meta is like 80% imperials, so the triple las pred was an obvious choice for me.

Defiler huh? Now where would I find a thousand son head-shield (how do you call the neck protectors?) big enough to fit a defiler??? TK sphinx????

Oh, one of the head dresses? I don't know, I just used the sabretooth cat-skull thing from the TK-sphinx for mine.

What's bothering me now is that the Defiler has made the Forgefiend completely redundant.

A shooty Defiler costs 201pts for Battlecannon, TL Lascannon and Havoc launcher.
> range 48"
> 4 S18 AP-3 Dd6 attacks
> Smokelaunchers
> Havoc launcher
> 14 wounds

A shooty Fiend costs 195pts for Ecto head, double Hades autocannons
> range 36"/24"
> no CC
> 12 wounds

For 6pts you get 2 wounds, Smokelaunchers, Havoc launcher, increased range and some nice CC attacks. Both units deal the same damage (and that's without accounting for the Havoc Launcher). Why would you ever run a Forgefiend now ?
I think the Forgefiend's Ectoplasma Cannon is overcosted by *at least* 5 points and the beast itself by 20.

The two pack vastly different guns?

Defiler shooting at T7 3+ target:

- TL Lascannon: 2 shots, 1 hit, 0,66 wounds, 0,55 after saves x3,5 = 1,94 wounds.
- Battlecannon: 3,5 shots, 1,75 hits, 1,17 wounds, 0,77 after saves x2 = 1,56 wounds.
- Havoc Launcher (although I'd personaly take the tendrils instead): 3,5 shots, 1,75 hits, 0,58 wounds, 0,19 after saves.

Total: 3,69 wounds.

Forgefiend shooting at a T7 3+ target.

- 2x Hades Cannons: 8 shots, 4 hits, 2,67 wounds, 1,33 after saves, x2 = 2,67 wounds.
- Ectoplasma: 2 shots, 1 hit, 0,5 wounds, 0,42 after saves, x2 = 0,83 wounds.

Total: 3,5 wounds.

- - - - - - -

And as you say, in addition to all this the Defiler can actually kill stuff in melee, has +2 wounds, longer range and smoke launchers.
Yeah from a competetive standpoint there's no reason to take a Forgefiend. After they shaved of points on the Defiler they should've shaved some on the Forgefiend as well.

I guess the Hades Cannons make the Forgefiend better against certain 2W targets, but thats about it.

Can't really believe that I live to see the day where we are seriously discussing defilers as a solid option for Chaos.

........

So happy inside...

I think we're actually at the point where Defilers are more "does it all" than "master of none" - especially for the Thousand Sons, who have all the buffs for big sturdy things that want psychic buffs.

There is an argument to be made for options like the double-butcher contemptor in shooting, and the tendrilfiend in melee (makes better use out of the warptime rush with 10" base MS, a solid 40 points cheaper and it does comparable, if less, damage, but still reliably whacks things if it pops daemonforge in melee)