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topaxygouroun i wrote:
Can't really believe that I live to see the day where we are seriously discussing defilers as a solid option for Chaos.

........

So happy inside...

Lol I know right?

Defiler and Forgefiend have been my go to combo last few games, tried to lower my "casting requirements" to find that sweet spot where I have exactly what I need without having a bunch of spells wasted because once you hit that point they just don't really become a used spell.

Last game ran

2x Defiler with twin laz, scourge
Forgefiend with dual hades autocannons
Exalted Sorcerer, helm of 3rd eye, prescience, Temporal manipulation
Changecaster as warlord with Deamonspark, Flickering flames, gaze of fate

This seemed to work just as well, the units were a bit softer but I found if I casted -1 to hit on one defiler, +1 invulnerable on the other, my opponent shot the forgefiend. If I didn't cast those powers he would pick a difiler and I would still be healing one of the 3 each turn so it doesn't matter as much in my meta, your mileage may vary. This gave me points to spend elsewhere, bringing the group down to 785 pts.

And deamonspark is very sweet. I don't know how I feel about it, as then it feels like a small deamon army with a large Tsons detachment when I make the changecaster the warlord but how can you not like free auto reroll 1's to wound on shooting?

I may end up either putting weaver of fate / glamor of tzeench on my 2 10 man Rubric squads I always take as fire Support for the group as a possible cast if something needs protection quick, or maybe drop the changeling as warlord and just summon it in so I can have a more pure tsons force. I mean, a sorcerer summoning a deamon to help him keep the machines running, that makes sense.

Here's a list I've worked up with models that I already own. Sadly, this means no Tzaangor hotness.

I think it's potentially solid, the vehicles, DP, Ahriman, and bolter Rubrics forming a mobile firebase while the Cultists and spawn rush forward to threaten enemy lines with a swamping. The flamer Rubrics drop out of the webway onto an objective with the sorceror to buff them, and the disc sorc goes where needed. I can also switch Rubric squad roles if I see the need.

Ideally I'd like to swap some spawn with Enlightened, and probably drop a Rubric squad in favor of Tzaangors, then use the freed up points for SoT in the future.

Thoughts?

 frightnight wrote:
Here's a list I've worked up with models that I already own. Sadly, this means no Tzaangor hotness.

Spoiler:

Battalion:
Ahriman
Daemon Prince w wings
22 Cultists, 1 with flamer
10 Rubrics w Bolters and Soulreaper
10 Rubrics w Flamers and Soulreaper

Outrider:
Terminator Sorc w Familiar
3x Chaos Spawn
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Spawn

Spearhead:
Exalted on Disc
Pred with 4 Lascannons, Combi bolter
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi

I think it's potentially solid, the vehicles, DP, Ahriman, and bolter Rubrics forming a mobile firebase while the Cultists and spawn rush forward to threaten enemy lines with a swamping. The flamer Rubrics drop out of the webway onto an objective with the sorceror to buff them, and the disc sorc goes where needed. I can also switch Rubric squad roles if I see the need.

Ideally I'd like to swap some spawn with Enlightened, and probably drop a Rubric squad in favor of Tzaangors, then use the freed up points for SoT in the future.

Thoughts?

Actually, pretty nice. I like our spawns at the moment, the ability to control their mutation through a command point could be useful in a clutch situation.

It has a lot of potential with close combat, I mean we really are in a weird position here. We don't want to be in cc as tsons but if you charge us we can hit as hard as we get hit, I like that aspect of your list.

I don't know about the full squad of flamers. Rubrics are expensive enough as it is, I can see putting one or 2 in per squad but a full 10 man = about 100 pts. That's better spent on 3 more chaos spawn, or more cultists. Just more bodies in general. I mean, what do you need 10d6 auto hits to kill that 4 wouldn't kill? How much of that is overkill?

 Nym wrote:
What's bothering me now is that the Defiler has made the Forgefiend completely redundant.

A shooty Defiler costs 201pts for Battlecannon, TL Lascannon and Havoc launcher.
> range 48"
> 4 S18 AP-3 Dd6 attacks
> Smokelaunchers
> Havoc launcher
> 14 wounds

A shooty Fiend costs 195pts for Ecto head, double Hades autocannons
> range 36"/24"
> no CC
> 12 wounds


For 6pts you get 2 wounds, Smokelaunchers, Havoc launcher, increased range and some nice CC attacks. Both units deal the same damage (and that's without accounting for the Havoc Launcher). Why would you ever run a Forgefiend now ?
I think the Forgefiend's Ectoplasma Cannon is overcosted by *at least* 5 points and the beast itself by 20.

Though I agree they are very close with the defiler having an edge, I often dont use the ecto-face on my forgefiend leaving it at a nice 177 for its cost in smaller games (anything below 2k I do not take the plasma face, however in 2k I sometimes do). For me personally the forgefiend has put out LOTS of damage in a turn, to the tune of often coming close to 1-turning transport vehicles such as rhinos or chimeras with minimal help.

Looking at 8 shots, re rolling 1's, sometimes shooting at +1 BS, daemonforge if you *REALLY* need a target dead or hurting, Flickering flames from a prince, daemon, or sorcerer when applicable for that str8 and +1 to wound.

Though the "potential" of the defiler outstrips the forgefiend, that potential requires decent rolls for the havoc launcher and the battle cannon, so there is an additional dice roll involved for that model whereas the forgefiend just grinds away with its 8 shots, good stats, decent saves, and with our support hits and damages fairly well at shooting for its cost. When I have used the plasma it does fine, but usually I find the cannons put out ALOT of hate and it makes your opponent focus it.

I actually use both in my lists and i find they are quite complementary. My defiler also puts out lots of shots as I haven't taken to putting a Las-cannon on it yet, usually do the base cannon, a combi-bolter, its heavy bolter, and its havoc launcher (170 flat) and it does fairly well. Far harder to kill then it should be, and I love it!

I've been testing out a few things with the army in both friendly and competitive match-ups, and I've learned some things very quickly.

Side-note before I get started; as much as we didn't get the scale of release that Death Guard received (we have something like 10 unique units to their 18) the rules designers put more effort into the non-unique stuff. Our Daemon Princes not only get both the Legion trait and Daemon of "x" benefit, they also uniquely know and can cast an extra power at no additional cost, making them arguably the best Daemon Princes of any legion (though a Khorne Daemon Prince from the Daemon codex will shank anything in the game). Similarly, our generic Sorcerers gain 5+ invulnerable saves for a handful of points, while our Exalted Sorcerers are literally Chaos Sorcerer Lords; less options, same stats with good stock weaponry and well priced (not next to Daemon Princes, but generally speaking)

1) Always have some kind of big unit to benefit from Veterans of the Long War. The stratagem is too good not to get the most out of, whether it's 20-man Rubric units shooting or 30-strong Tzaangor squads fighting up close.

2) On a similar note, having one or two big units (at least) that are very scary for your opponent receive most or all of your buffs between them presents a huge tactical decision to your opponent on what to focus on and how to ease the pain.

3) Magnus can dominate armies that don't have great shooting phases, especially if you go first. Always take the Changeling if you're using Magnus. Whether you decide to buff Magnus or not really depends on the situation, sometimes he's just not a good target for your opponent on a given turn and your buffs can be directed elsewhere.

4) Regarding Magnus. His psychic and to-hit auras serve him well if you have a healthy amount of psykers but they won't make your psychic phase tick alone. Keeping him back for a few turns as a counter-charge unit can work. Again, it all depends on the match-up; against gunlines, buff him and Warptime him forward before Warptiming in some Tzaangor blobs.

5) Make full use of our mobility manipulation when you need it. Don't Deep Strike in the face of a well defended gun-line with only one or two units, fail to get a few key buffs off and watch said unit die before it can come close to making its points back. Some match-ups will punish reserves play even if you support the alpha strike well, be aware of this and plan around using the Webway stratagem or simply saving your Command Points.

6) To counter my previous point, always have one strong ranged unit and one strong melee unit that can benefit from the Webway stratagem. Sometimes you will want to use it just to protect something from an opponents' alpha strike, or have the flexibility to do something as simple as dropping it down at a particular point behind your own lines; all this also applies to any Deep Striking Chaos Daemons. 20-man Rubrics, 10-man Scarabs, 20/30-strong Pink Horrors, 6/9-strong Flamers (or whichever number only costs 1CP to Deep Strike), 20-30/strong Tzaangors, etc. Again, the match-up is key and learning when to make use of the Webway stratagem is a critical part of competitive Thousand Sons play.

7) If you plan on Warptiming a melee/ranged unit forward after Deep Striking them, a good idea is to put Warptime on a Terminator Sorcerer who Deep Strikes with said unit. Ideally, said Terminator Sorcerer is also your Warlord and has a Chaos Familiar. Getting +2 to cast Warptime is great, getting +4 to cast it is even better if you can sling a few disc-riding characters/Daemon Princes/have a squad of Rubrics or Scarabs nearby. You do this not only to make sure the power goes off, but also because you can deliver Warptime exactly where you need it and not have to worry about the max 12+D6" move your fast characters have, i.e. if there's a gap in the enemy backfield you want to exploit.

8) Always spend 1CP on taking an extra relic for Thousand Sons. Always. The Dark Matter Crystal and Helm of the Third Eye are auto-takes competitively. Preferably have the Dark Matter Crystal as your "free" Relic and spend the 1CP on the Helm, the reason for that is that some armies will spend all their CP before the game which will make the chances of refunding the CP spent on the Helm incredibly slim. On the flip side, the Crystal is literally always worth it even if it is just for a late game objective grab.

9) I prefer to put the Dark Matter Crystal on whichever character I have teleporting in (again, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour) so they can deliver it to where it needs to go. On the flip side, always have the Helm starting on the board. If your opponent goes first and your Helm-bearer is in Reserves, that's potentially a lot of CP you can miss out on.

10) Pay very close attention to your order of operations. The Mutaliths' aura is resolved at the start of the Shooting phase. For the sake of your opponent, pre-plan your psychic powers; keep a note (whether on paper or on an electronic device) of what powers you prefer and on what characters will usually take them. Having 18 to choose from is amazing, but not when you have limited time to play out a match and you can't decide what you need. The reality is that several of our powers are must-takes almost regardless of match-up - Weaver of Fates, Warptime, Prescience, Gaze of Fate, Glamour of Tzeentch and Death Hex in particular - and which other powers you take can often depend on just how many psykers you have.

11) I aim to have a minimum of 10 casts per turn in a 2000 point Thousand Sons army, and as crazy as it sounds that is not character heavy at all, especially if you take Ahriman. If you want to get the most bang for your buck out of your HQ choices - meaning you want a character that can fight and sling spells effectively - Daemon Princes are your obvious best bet. If you just want cheap psykers, bare-bones Sorcerers are great, and Exalteds are worthwhile if you don't want to spring for Princes. The Terminator Sorcerer is pretty much always a great investment because, unlike the others, he has an in-built Deep Strike mechanic and has his own casting bonus.

12) If you can stomach playing "under" points, keeping some points spare and summoning daemons in is not the worst idea in the world for the same reasons summoning is considered a toolbox ability by competitive Age of Sigmar players. Sometimes you'll want Horrors to clear chaff. Other times you'll want Flamers to clear those silly "I'm impossible to hit at range" enemies. Hell, sometimes you'll want a melee-based tank-buster in the form of Screamers. It's not for every list and I generally prefer to just fill out my list, but it's something to consider, especially as our summoning stratagem is really darned good.

13) Whether it "breaks your fluff" or not, Rubrics must be supported by Cultists and/or Tzaangors. Not only do you want them to fill out your Troops choices cheaply, you need troops that can move into the midfield and generally be a nuisance for your opponent. Hordes are good. We have good hordes. Make the most of them. Pretty much no army in the game does pure elite well, even Custodes have their issues; we aren't any different, and you need to respect that fact.

14) I prefer to get all my Rubric-love in a 20-man unit that either Deep Strikes or sits behind my lines depending on the match-up (majority of cases, they Deep Strike) as MSU Rubrics got punished a bit with the Soulreaper change and 20-man Rubrics are one of the best units to give Prescience and Veterans of the Long War to. Being perfectly honest, I'm still afraid to cast powers on my Aspiring Sorcerers. However...

15) Tzeentch's Firestorm or Temporal Manipulation are great picks for an Aspiring Sorcerer to have. I always try to have Gaze of Fate and a CP saved to mitigate his Perils, as generally Perils isn't a big deal for our other psykers by virtue of Temporal Manipulation existing. Watch for snipers though. Ideally, cast the powers that you're afraid of suffering Perils from early in your Psychic phase so you don't get tempted to burn the two possible re-rolls on potentially less critical rolls.

16) If you want versatility in a competitive or semi-competitive army, or just versatility in general, I would invest in either Rubrics or Scarab Occult, not both, as painful as it can be to say that. This is not an indictment of either unit; sadly, they really do fill the same role. Inferno bolt weapons plus Veterans of the Long War and Prescience can gun down most things in the game, but primarily they are best at killing infantry. Scarabs trade durability against Damage 2+ weapons per-point (they die as easily as a Rubric there despite costing double the points) for better melee prowess, but their melee attacks are essentially the same as their guns; anti-infantry, even if Veterans of the Long War can allay that. Taking too much of both is a mistake.

17) Heroic Interventions are your friend. We will usually have more than a few characters, and each of them is respectably capable in combat due to either having a force weapon or being a Daemon Prince. On that note, be mindful that if you are sending your characters forward to buff Deep Strikers or get in range to do offensive powers, make sure to move up fodder around them so they don't get isolated and killed. The characters are the most important part of the army, and once all your buffs and psychic mortal wounds are gone, the army starts losing direction extremely fast. That's fluffy of course, but it does mean protecting your characters is something you must be mindful of at all times. Losing Ahriman turn one because you under-estimate the mobility of particular assault units is a horrible way to start a game.

18) If you run a character that can get +3 or +4 to cast through various abilities/stratagems, consider putting Doombolt on said caster. Doombolt is game-winning in certain match-ups, especially if you can guarantee getting into range of what you want to cast it on. However, it is also highly first-turn dependent in a lot of the match-ups where it is favourable, making it a bit unreliable; a list that Warptimes a Daemon Primarch forward can't be messed up by Doombolt if you don't go first. Similarly, some armies that would be vulnerable to the power can bypass it thanks to Reserves; a Swarmlord + tunnelling Genestealers list being a prime example. It's yet another toolbox power that you want to get to grips with before building a strategy around it.

 frightnight wrote:
Here's a list I've worked up with models that I already own. Sadly, this means no Tzaangor hotness.

Spoiler:

Battalion:
Ahriman
Daemon Prince w wings
22 Cultists, 1 with flamer
10 Rubrics w Bolters and Soulreaper
10 Rubrics w Flamers and Soulreaper

Outrider:
Terminator Sorc w Familiar
3x Chaos Spawn
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Spawn

Spearhead:
Exalted on Disc
Pred with 4 Lascannons, Combi bolter
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi
Defiler with twin las, scourge, combi

I think it's potentially solid, the vehicles, DP, Ahriman, and bolter Rubrics forming a mobile firebase while the Cultists and spawn rush forward to threaten enemy lines with a swamping. The flamer Rubrics drop out of the webway onto an objective with the sorceror to buff them, and the disc sorc goes where needed. I can also switch Rubric squad roles if I see the need.

Ideally I'd like to swap some spawn with Enlightened, and probably drop a Rubric squad in favor of Tzaangors, then use the freed up points for SoT in the future.

Thoughts?

I feel like those cultists will probably never do anything in any game unless you intend to focus buffs onto them. It's likely better to just have two blocks of 10 so they don't all die to morale in one go.

Great post

Caederes wrote:
I've been testing out a few things with the army in both friendly and competitive match-ups, and I've learned some things very quickly.

Those are some great pointers. Here are some counter-questions:

1) Are 20-man rubrics not vulnerable to morale losses?

2) Do you think rhino-deploying is a viable way of limiting the drops of a character-heavy army, and/or protecting rubrics against alpha strikes?

3) Is tzaangors always better than cultists?

4) Are shamans worth it?

5) What unit size for tzangoors? Always give them a bray horn? Is there any reason to run chainswords and pistols, ever?

6) Is there any reason to run horrors without heralds?

Regards

pismakron wrote:


1) Are 20-man rubrics not vulnerable to morale losses?

Save that two CP for auto-pass morale. They need only to survive a couple rounds of shooting to deliver the payload.

2) Do you think rhino-deploying is a viable way of limiting the drops of a character-heavy army, and/or protecting rubrics against alpha strikes?

It's not a small investment for those, but warpflame gargoyles amps up their usability after they've done their job. It would suck though to get alpha charged and not be able to get out of the rhino - rare, but possible.

3) Is tzaangors always better than cultists?

Cultists are better filler. Tzaangors can be more useful overall.

4) Are shamans worth it?

Only if you have Tzaangors, really.

5) What unit size for tzangoors? Always give them a bray horn? Is there any reason to run chainswords and pistols, ever?

Size based on your need. 20 to 30 if you want to do damage. Brayhorn if you intend to bring a big unit and get it stuck in. I never run CS/pistol, but there could be edge cases.

6) Is there any reason to run horrors without heralds?

Eh. They need the strength to be more effective. And you'd want the horrors in their own detachment, which requires and HQ anyway.

I used realized that Tzaangors, unlike pretty much any similar unit, does not get any bonuses when 20+ strong.

Perhaps that's for the best. People are already whining about how "op" they are if you invest 500 pts in buffs for them.

What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.

Yep. In my estimation though, the most optimal daemon battalion is actually investing just a little bit more into it.

Changeling gives good benefits (especially to magnus and daemon engines) and is only marginally more expensive than a changecaster, and you only need one changecaster really. Plus, you might as well bring something for the changecaster you do have to buff the strength of - I use a big blob of pinks to deep strike, great for pairing with tzaangors as the tzaangors strike in, warptime until they're tickling the noses of the enemy's deep strike screen, then the pinks can clear that screen away partially to allow the tzaangors to try and charge into more valuable targets, like buff characters, or vehicles that dont want to be tied up. A friend of mine swears by Flamers, because 6 only need 1cp to deep strike and a herald buffs them into 6 12" range pistol heavy flamers. Mean as a mother hubbard and great at clearing infantry.

Plus, Exalted Flamers are also an amazing unit you should consider because it does that magical thing the thousand sons cant get enough of which is kill tanks. Character protection, fly, likes daemon prince hit rerolls.

the_scotsman wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.

Yep. In my estimation though, the most optimal daemon battalion is actually investing just a little bit more into it.

Changeling gives good benefits (especially to magnus and daemon engines) and is only marginally more expensive than a changecaster, and you only need one changecaster really. Plus, you might as well bring something for the changecaster you do have to buff the strength of - I use a big blob of pinks to deep strike, great for pairing with tzaangors as the tzaangors strike in, warptime until they're tickling the noses of the enemy's deep strike screen, then the pinks can clear that screen away partially to allow the tzaangors to try and charge into more valuable targets, like buff characters, or vehicles that dont want to be tied up. A friend of mine swears by Flamers, because 6 only need 1cp to deep strike and a herald buffs them into 6 12" range pistol heavy flamers. Mean as a mother hubbard and great at clearing infantry.

Plus, Exalted Flamers are also an amazing unit you should consider because it does that magical thing the thousand sons cant get enough of which is kill tanks. Character protection, fly, likes daemon prince hit rerolls.

So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?

Now if only Defiler's could get a better looking model. Like the Soulgrinder

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?

Careful, you go much further down the logical path you'll realize you don't need Thousand Sons at all. It's hard to come back from that, trust me.

 nintura wrote:
Now if only Defiler's could get a better looking model. Like the Soulgrinder

I think that new Mini-knight fig they previewed recently seems like a prime candidate to convert into a really cool defiler.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
What's the cheapest daemon battalion we can get? Like 2 heralds and 3 units of brimstone horrors? Just put the horrors on objectives and use the heralds as extra spellcasters to buff your defilers. We could try to maximize the CP we generate. If the whole battalion can go for 250ish points and give us 3 crappy objective holders, 2 daemon casters and 3 CP then I'm all in for it really.

Yep. In my estimation though, the most optimal daemon battalion is actually investing just a little bit more into it.

Changeling gives good benefits (especially to magnus and daemon engines) and is only marginally more expensive than a changecaster, and you only need one changecaster really. Plus, you might as well bring something for the changecaster you do have to buff the strength of - I use a big blob of pinks to deep strike, great for pairing with tzaangors as the tzaangors strike in, warptime until they're tickling the noses of the enemy's deep strike screen, then the pinks can clear that screen away partially to allow the tzaangors to try and charge into more valuable targets, like buff characters, or vehicles that dont want to be tied up. A friend of mine swears by Flamers, because 6 only need 1cp to deep strike and a herald buffs them into 6 12" range pistol heavy flamers. Mean as a mother hubbard and great at clearing infantry.

Plus, Exalted Flamers are also an amazing unit you should consider because it does that magical thing the thousand sons cant get enough of which is kill tanks. Character protection, fly, likes daemon prince hit rerolls.

So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?

Oh sorry thought you played Thousand Sons Codex, not Daemon codex. They aren't the same as the goats, the utility level is different. Cross comparing a Tzaangor to a daemon unit from the daemon book is a faulty comparison unless they have the same role. They full fill different purposes.

brimstones are chaff, and only chaff. Blue are chaff, and really only chaff (unless i'm missing an interaction, I dont know the daemon dex by heart). Pinks have some excellent shooting when invested in, but at that point your costing the same as the goats anyhow for a different utility of a unit, goats have T4, and have access to *WAY* more buffs stacked to a somewhat ludicrous effect, but the horrors have very good shooting and ability to really spam str 3/4 shooting is of itself a good trick that is also good on the table, but to make it str4 you need to invest in a (minimum) 78 point HQ slot horror taking away from the actual *thousand sons* portion of the army... It is also debatable if a 4++ or a T4 model is the "better" choice.

For our purposes its a no brainer; goats aren't "just" chaff, they are a main-line combat unit. If I want chaff to sit on an objective? yeah brims and some blues I can see working fine, right along with cultists working just fine.... but for any kind of "line" duty? your looking minimum at Pink Horrors, or Tzaangors. and in my experience that T4 goes a long way to keeping them on the table. Statistically they are almost as survivable as a space marine (obviously a 5++ vs a 3+) for around half the points cost, and have better combat (or equivocal combat) to an assault marine...for less then half the points cost.

 MinscS2 wrote:
I used realized that Tzaangors, unlike pretty much any similar unit, does not get any bonuses when 20+ strong.

Perhaps that's for the best. People are already whining about how "op" they are if you invest 500 pts in buffs for them.

Which is kinda odd, The AoS version gets an extra attack for every nine in the squad.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?

Careful, you go much further down the logical path you'll realize you don't need Thousand Sons at all. It's hard to come back from that, trust me.

That hit me harder than a 10 ton truck.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Now if only Defiler's could get a better looking model. Like the Soulgrinder

I think that new Mini-knight fig they previewed recently seems like a prime candidate to convert into a really cool defiler.

Link?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?

Careful, you go much further down the logical path you'll realize you don't need Thousand Sons at all. It's hard to come back from that, trust me.

That hit me harder than a 10 ton truck.

You don't "need" anything. From a purely competitive standpoint, you don't "need" anything except the best possible competitive list, and then you don't need anything but the next one after it gets nerfed.

The overall point of the tactics threads are generally how to make things work with the army in the title, whether or not they're the most optimal thing in the game at any given moment. Many people don't like the goats, I consider Daemons to be a more interesting option and generally more economical anyway, so I'll support my thousand sons with some daemons.

The role of Tzaangors as a mainline combat bomb is not usually done by daemons. I would say though that you can safely replace cultists in their chaff role with brimstones. Brims are generally superior in my eyes, even if just for the one point. Pinks vs tzaangors...not as good an analogue as someone said. Pinks tend to be a bit less of a one-turn wonder, both the first part and the second part of that statement. More consistently good over several turns than a pressure piece. Both support a rubric-based army just fine.

pismakron wrote:

Caederes wrote:
I've been testing out a few things with the army in both friendly and competitive match-ups, and I've learned some things very quickly.

Those are some great pointers. Here are some counter-questions:

1) Are 20-man rubrics not vulnerable to morale losses?

2) Do you think rhino-deploying is a viable way of limiting the drops of a character-heavy army, and/or protecting rubrics against alpha strikes?

3) Is tzaangors always better than cultists?

4) Are shamans worth it?

5) What unit size for tzangoors? Always give them a bray horn? Is there any reason to run chainswords and pistols, ever?

6) Is there any reason to run horrors without heralds?

Regards

Thank you and Daedalus for the feedback!

1) They are, but they are also a great target for the 2CP morale stratagem. Provided you have defensive buffs on them, they are hard to shift, especially if you luck out with terrain placement and plop them in cover; it can get to a point that some armies won't be able to really do that much damage to them at all depending on whether they can get close to them or not.

2) If you're running multiple Rubric units, definitely. I take two Wave Serpents in all of my Eldar lists for similar reasons because deciding who gets the first turn can be critical, and Rhinos don't seem half bad to me, especially with the possibility of using Warpflame Gargoyles on an unsuspecting opponent.

3) Not always. If you want to fill out Troops slots in detachments cheaply, take Cultists; they fill the role of bubble-wrap and meat-shields better. If you want to run Tzaangors, run them in bigger units and buff them up with Shamans/Mutaliths/psychic powers/stratagems and use them either as counter-assault or as a teleporting/Warptimed assault force. You can substitute Cultists for them but you end up spending a lot of extra points on models that, in small units, are primarily there to soak up shooting.

4) It depends, really. Sorcerers are a better psyker choice for the extra cast per turn and access to Dark Hereticus if you want a cheap psyker, so the Shaman really comes into his own if you've filled up your HQ slots or you have Tzaangors to buff. If you teleport Tzaangors in front of your opponent, trying to get a Shaman in range to buff them is extremely difficult unless you use the Dark Matter Crystal on him, something I feel is a bit of a waste. Tzaangor blobs can get Prescience if they really need to hit on 2s, and they can get other buffs to a point that +1 to-hit isn't so crucial. Where Shamans shine is with Enlightened of either type, a Shaman is a must take for the Bow Enlightened in particular. Spear Enlightened in large numbers might be worth using Warptime and Prescience on so they can to far away targets, at which point - like Deep Striking Tzaangors - it's hard for the Shaman to keep up with them.

5) I always go a minimum of 20 but I prefer closer to 30 to maximize the buff powers, though I Deep Strike mine which might be different to how others use their Tzaangors. If you use them as screens instead of Cultists, keep them at 10 so morale doesn't punish them too hard. Brayhorn is a necessity if you Deep Strike them, otherwise it's very good but in some cases the points can be better spent elsewhere. Screening Tzaangors don't need it. Chainswords and Pistols are...eh. A single pistol shot each that hits on 4+ (or better with buffs) at S4 AP0 with such a short range is not great, even for large squads, especially if your opponent is smart and takes casualties from the front to increase your charge range. You only get benefit from the pistols before you charge and if you stay in combat into your next turn, it makes no difference in the enemy turn (and the Overwatch is "meh" if that comes up). I'd much rather have that permanent -1AP so that their combat prowess is actually something to be afraid of. In my specific list where my Tzaangors are going to be charging off of Deep Strike via Warptime, the Tzaangor Blades are the clear winner.

6) Generally speaking you'll have Horrors in a Battalion detachment for cheap CPs, meaning you'll have 2 HQs. One of those should always be a Herald of Tzeentch because they are cheap, the other can be whatever you want. The Blue Scribes can be part of an anti-psyker/negative psychic test modifier bomb (I know that in concert a Chaos list can make you -4 to cast and steal powers, I don't know the details), a Lord of Change can be a major fire magnet with the 3++/reduce damage by 1 combo of relic and Warlord Trait, and the Changeling gives a helpful 6++. In general terms, Blue and Brimstone Horrors don't really care if they are near a Herald or not. Pink Horrors, however, very much want a Herald with them for the +1 Strength, though you can also be cheeky and chuck the +1 Strength bonus from a Mutalith on them should a Herald be unavailable for whatever reason.

TwinPoleTheory wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So, next question. If you can fill in your daemons as your chaff/utility units, do we really need the goats?

Careful, you go much further down the logical path you'll realize you don't need Thousand Sons at all. It's hard to come back from that, trust me.

Funny that seeing as this is a Thousand Sons Tactics thread.
If you were to keep a Tzeentch theme, Tzeentch Daemons can't match a Thousand Sons psychic phase for potency or usefulness by virtue of being restricted to one discipline. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get three disciplines, one of which is IMO one of the best psychic disciplines in the game (Dark Hereticus) Thousand Sons have a more efficient psychic phase as well by virtue of paying a smidge over 100 for 2 casts compared to just under 80 for 1 cast. Tzeentch Daemons have no easy way of getting their melee units into combat. Thousand Sons do thanks to Warptime, and that's a critical ability to have in a lot of match-ups. Tzeentch Daemons also can't compete with Thousand Sons for heavy firepower seeing as a Soul Grinder is pants compared to a Defiler, Forgefiend or Predator.

General Chaos is, of course, a different story. There are things they can offer to other armies though, namely super high value Daemon Princes, and this is speaking competitively.

If you were to keep a Tzeentch theme, Tzeentch Daemons can't match a Thousand Sons psychic phase for potency or usefulness by virtue of being restricted to one discipline. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons get three disciplines, one of which is IMO one of the best psychic disciplines in the game (Dark Hereticus) Thousand Sons have a more efficient psychic phase as well by virtue of paying a smidge over 100 for 2 casts compared to just under 80 for 1 cast. Tzeentch Daemons have no easy way of getting their melee units into combat. Thousand Sons do thanks to Warptime, and that's a critical ability to have in a lot of match-ups. Tzeentch Daemons also can't compete with Thousand Sons for heavy firepower seeing as a Soul Grinder is pants compared to a Defiler, Forgefiend or Predator.

I did not say daemons vs Thousand Sons. I said daemons vs goats as a support to the thousand sons. Main reason is the simple obvious one: I own the daemons but I don't own any goats.

What does everyone think is the optimal powers per psyker right now?

I understand it can depend on the army, but I imagine there are some powers you generally want to take.

I.E. What do you guys think are the preferred powers for the Daemon Prince and Magnus?

For a deamon prince (assuming pure tsons) Gaze of Fate always as one of the 2, but that may be because I want that sweet reroll without spending a command point.

The roll your giving it is important though. Is it a beat stick? Fast support? Fire Support? Counter assault? With so many options there isn't any one set up to go with.

Major misconception there sasori.

There are no set bade spells per caster.

You choose spells before deployment, not during list building.
Therefore, you adjust your spell selection (or even just who has what with the same spells) to adjust to your enemy.


For example, sometimes you want death hex on your termi sorcerer warlord for that critical supercast, other times you don't even take it.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


I did not say daemons vs Thousand Sons. I said daemons vs goats as a support to the thousand sons. Main reason is the simple obvious one: I own the daemons but I don't own any goats.

What? I was replying to the person who quoted you, not you

Also, to answer your question directly; do you own any Bloodletters? If not, Tzaangors fill the role of Deep Striking melee infantry bomb used primarily to kill or tie up enemies, halting their Shooting phase and giving your more valuable stuff time to advance. If you just want chaff clearing alone from the Tzaangors, Pink Horrors do it better in most cases and need less support (i.e. they aren't so reliant on Warptime)

 Sasori wrote:
What does everyone think is the optimal powers per psyker right now?

I understand it can depend on the army, but I imagine there are some powers you generally want to take.

I.E. What do you guys think are the preferred powers for the Daemon Prince and Magnus?

Depends on what I'm up against and what I'm fielding.

The only power I'd always take on my Daemon Prince is Gaze of Fate, as he's the only model I have who has access to Discipline of Tzeentch.

As for what powers to pick, this is how I rate them:

Good powers, works in most lists and against almost any opponent:

- Glamour of Tzeentch.
- Temporal Manipulation.
- Weaver of Fates.
- Infernal Gaze.
- Prescience.
- Warptime.
- Gaze of Fate.

Good powers, but a bit situational. Might not suit every list or opponent:

- Boon of Mutation. (requires a recipient)
- Death Hex. (Great vs. the right opponent, useless vs. the wrong opponent.)
- Diabolic Strength. (requires the right recipient)
- Boon of Change. (requires the right recipient)
- Flickering Flames. (requires the right recipient)

Meh powers. Only take if I have slots to spare:

- Doombolt (too high WC)
- Gift of Chaos. (Not a bad power per se against T3 armies, but it's way down on the list for me.)
- Bolt of Change (too high WC, worse than Doombolt.)
- Tzeentch's Firestorm. (I end up taking this in every list because Asp Sorc's/SOT Sorc's/Shamans can only take powers from D.o. Change, and all other powers have been taken already.)

Bad powers. I'd rather take another power twice and have as backup than take these:

- Treason of Tzeentch.
- Infernal Gateway.

I expect disagreements, but this is my list.

Funny thing about Infernal Gateway, if you put it on a psyker with good mobility and you play against an opponent that isn't prepared for it, it can be absolutely brutal. It's worked only once so far in my test games but....boy, did it work! Generally speaking though? Yeah, not worth it.

Also, when you put Doombolt on a caster with +2 to cast, the WC value is a bit easier to stomach. It's like Death Hex where it can completely shut down a particular enemy unit - Death Hex makes them easier to kill, Doombolt screws up their mobility - and it has served me well in some of my games so far. Custodes Jetbikes, Mortarion (if you go first and he's relying on Warptime, you buy yourself at least one extra turn before he reaches you) Can also be a game-changer against Kraken Genestealer rush by making one unit useless, allowing you to focus on the others.

Just some food for thought for our less popular powers, they are definitely situational but can be incredible in the right situation. A huge part of winning with Thousand Sons will be prioritizing the right powers based on your opponents' armies on a game-by-game basis. Death Hex is probably the most swingy power we have; against a lot of units, it's the best power we have; against others, it functionally doesn't help. Take Custodes for example, unless you have AP-3 or better then removing their invulnerable saves doesn't help given that they have army-wide 2+ armour saves, other than dropping any 3++ invulnerables they have back to their "normal" 4++ saves.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Major misconception there sasori.

There are no set bade spells per caster.

You choose spells before deployment, not during list building.
Therefore, you adjust your spell selection (or even just who has what with the same spells) to adjust to your enemy.


For example, sometimes you want death hex on your termi sorcerer warlord for that critical supercast, other times you don't even take it.

I know this. Perhaps I worded my question poorly, but I'm looking to find out what people see are some of the most efficient spells, per use on the caster. I understand the situation dictates this a lot, but Imagine there is going to be some consenses on you should usually have X powers if running Magnus, or X spells on the Daemon prince if running him. Example is that several people of pointed out you should always be taking Gaze on the DP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
What does everyone think is the optimal powers per psyker right now?

I understand it can depend on the army, but I imagine there are some powers you generally want to take.

I.E. What do you guys think are the preferred powers for the Daemon Prince and Magnus?

Depends on what I'm up against and what I'm fielding.

The only power I'd always take on my Daemon Prince is Gaze of Fate, as he's the only model I have who has access to Discipline of Tzeentch.

As for what powers to pick, this is how I rate them:

Good powers, works in most lists and against almost any opponent:

- Glamour of Tzeentch.
- Temporal Manipulation.
- Weaver of Fates.
- Infernal Gaze.
- Prescience.
- Warptime.
- Gaze of Fate.

Good powers, but a bit situational. Might not suit every list or opponent:

- Boon of Mutation. (requires a recipient)
- Death Hex. (Great vs. the right opponent, useless vs. the wrong opponent.)
- Diabolic Strength. (requires the right recipient)
- Boon of Change. (requires the right recipient)
- Flickering Flames. (requires the right recipient)

Meh powers. Only take if I have slots to spare:

- Doombolt (too high WC)
- Gift of Chaos. (Not a bad power per se against T3 armies, but it's way down on the list for me.)
- Bolt of Change (too high WC, worse than Doombolt.)
- Tzeentch's Firestorm. (I end up taking this in every list because Asp Sorc's/SOT Sorc's/Shamans can only take powers from D.o. Change, and all other powers have been taken already.)

Bad powers. I'd rather take another power twice and have as backup than take these:

- Treason of Tzeentch.
- Infernal Gateway.

I expect disagreements, but this is my list.

Thanks, this is excellent. I am suprised though at Infernal Gateway, I thought that was a pretty powerful power.