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Gateway is powerful only in the right hands and only at the right time and only in the right match-up. Getting it to work to a degree where it cascades out is extremely tough, casting it at 18" thanks to our Legion trait alleviates one problem but the "must target the closest model" bit can only be helped by giving the power to someone who can either Deep Strike or move quickly enough to take advantage of it. Said psyker also needs big casting bonuses to make sure the power goes off as it is hard to cast, let alone getting the 12+ version! That limits which models you would take it on, and you need to wait for a good target to present itself before you bother using it. If you manage to slap a vehicle/monster/big model that's supporting other units as the primary target, you're in business. If not? It's hard going.

For reference, I managed to pull it off on a bunch of clumped characters and got the D6 mortal wounds version by slinging it off a Razorback from my Deep Striking Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with +4 to cast (he had Rubric buddies next to him for Cabalistic Focus), managing to get the 12+ version. Suffice to say, it was a one-in-a-million shot, but it won the game.

Gateway is a good candidate for Chaos Familiar.

Should the opportunity present itself, swap one of your spells for Infernal Gateway and enjoy chaos.

Never bother taking it right from the start of the game.

Caederes wrote:
Gateway is powerful only in the right hands and only at the right time and only in the right match-up. Getting it to work to a degree where it cascades out is extremely tough, casting it at 18" thanks to our Legion trait alleviates one problem but the "must target the closest model" bit can only be helped by giving the power to someone who can either Deep Strike or move quickly enough to take advantage of it. Said psyker also needs big casting bonuses to make sure the power goes off as it is hard to cast, let alone getting the 12+ version! That limits which models you would take it on, and you need to wait for a good target to present itself before you bother using it. If you manage to slap a vehicle/monster/big model that's supporting other units as the primary target, you're in business. If not? It's hard going.

For reference, I managed to pull it off on a bunch of clumped characters and got the D6 mortal wounds version by slinging it off a Razorback from my Deep Striking Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with +4 to cast (he had Rubric buddies next to him for Cabalistic Focus), managing to get the 12+ version. Suffice to say, it was a one-in-a-million shot, but it won the game.

This makes a lot of sense, I forgot about the closest model clause in it.

But for now Infernal Gateway could be every unit in 9" from the thousand sons legion trait that can be mean.
(until faq i think)

So, I don't know whether there are too many auto-includes for me, but I'd consider these essential:

1) Diabolic Strength on a daemon prince. S7-S9 and +1A is so gigantically huge in my book. I'd never bring a wingprince without this power.

2) Gaze of Fate I do rate highly, but I also always bring a daemon battalion and 99% of the time, that means I have Flickering Flames and Gaze of Fate on my two daemony bois. Usually changeling rocks Gaze and the Fateskimmer FF, because the skimmer can pretty much always be in range to cast it with his gigantic move.

3) Warptime, obviously, on either your termie sorc or your fastest psyker, hopefully with a bonus to cast. This is arguably the worst spell to fail in the tsons arsenal because failing nearly always puts you in an awful position, either with a deep striking unit hanging with their diabolical schemes out in the breeze or a daemon prince or engine sitting halfway between your lines and the enemy units he was trying to blitz.

So typically my setup is:

Termie sorc: Warptime and flex power (usually a buff for whatever unit he shepherds in, like Glamour or Prescience)

DP: Diabolic Strength and flex power (often an offensive power or Weaver to give himself a 3++. Since he's good at positioning close to vital targets, he often gets Gateway.)

Ahriman: Prescience, then either two offensive spells (if I want the option of unloading three Mortal Wound spells on a target. Usually I go this route against elite enemy armies or conversely Character-heavy T3 enemy armies like Guard or Sisters so I can bring the Gift of Chaos pain train) or two buff/debuff spells, leaning heavily on Dark Hereticus powers to leave Change powers free on my rubrics

Rubrics: Distortion, Boon if I have any walking characters (usually termie sorc), Weaver, Glamor, sometimes Firestorm if I'm against a more elite army I know will be in my face.

Daemon Bois: Gaze of Fate, Flickering Flames, and then usually an offensive spell like Gateway as the backup on the herald.

I tried a game out with the Tzaangor bomb - mine was a little less supported with just a deepstriking termie sorc. to give them warptime and prescience from Ahriman.

I was playing against a fairly guardian heavy list (effectively one screening unit and 2 punchy units) and overall I was pleased. I held my tzaangors until turn 2 and used my cultist bomb first turn to clear his screen then the tzaangors dropped turn 2 and cleared one of his 2 punchy units of guardians. Overall I was pretty pleased with the unit and I think I'll be able to find a consistent place for it in my lists.

Death Hex works wonders on Tzaangor bombs.

So how stupid would it be to take Ahriman on a disk and load him up with only offensive spells and send him off to slay some dudes? Would probably give him an entourage of a Shaman and six Skyfires, both to keep him safe and so the Skyfires have maximum damage potential.

Give him two shamans so that he can use the strat for another +1 to his psyker roll and it's not so stupid.

I'd go for Infernal Gaze and Tzeentch's Firestorm if I were going offensive with Ahriman, then prescience for the enlightened entourage. They're both at 24", and both allow you to target characters. Shaman can take Glamour or weaver to buff the birds' survivability. You can still throw out smite with your two offensive spells if the need arises, but 4+ auto wounding is legit, and easy to achieve. With 9 models that's 10 auto wounds, and 7 at S5. That means they'll drop 6 wounds on a Russ in a turn, on average, for example.

Plus your mobility means you'll be able to line up the 3 psykers for cabal strat on the fly.

409pts for Ahriman, the Shaman and 9 Enlightened, which is quite a chunk, but might be worth it.

Is it better to get bow or spear on the enlighted?

taetrius67 wrote:
Is it better to get bow or spear on the enlighted?

Apples and Oranges. Like a Mutilator and an Obliterator, they do different things.

With bows they're better at killing infantry and have the versatility of being a shooty unit that can also clear chaff in close combat.
With spears they're better at killing monsters/vehicles/characters but can't shoot.

What's everyone doing to get Command Points? Most of the lists I've been building have about 6 CP. I'm thinking maybe an extra battalion with some brimstone horrors for chaff.

What is everyone else doing for this?

with demons is pretty easy get 3 battalion and 12 cp's, or play like two demons battalion and csm battalion+abbadon for 14cp's

 Sasori wrote:
What's everyone doing to get Command Points? Most of the lists I've been building have about 6 CP. I'm thinking maybe an extra battalion with some brimstone horrors for chaff.

What is everyone else doing for this?

I plan on running a Daemon battalion along with my TS in the near future.

2 changecasters (I'll use both Gaunt summoners) or 1 changecaster and the Changeling (when I run 2 Defilers)
3x 10 Brimstones

That's 246-268pts for Gaze of fate, Flickering flames and 30 chaff models. Hard to beat. The psykers will buff my Daemon engines and/or Tzeentch Flamers (I like to summon 6 of them) and the chaff hold objectives or protect my Thousand Sons.

Along with that, I run a Thousand Sons battalion for a total of 9CP, which is plenty enough (especially since we have the Helm).

Let’s talk helbrute weapons. What is everyone running? Part of me wants to go super cheap with reaper or tl bolter and missile launcher and then just use fire frenzy every turn, or spend the CP and give it’s hvy bolters ap-2. For 114 points with tl hvy bolters and ML it’s a good little anti infantry fire support.

Or you can soup it up for anti tank duty with tl las but I feel it’s a bit too easy to pop then

What are everyone’s thoughts?

TS already has lot of anti infantry fire, what they lack is long range anti tank, for me useless set up a hellbrute as anti infantry

Then with the tl las ML option is it worth it as that? 147 pts isn’t terrible but it’s pretty easy to pop, a predator with full las is 190 but can degrade.

Or are we basically going to be popping tanks up close and have our long range stuff take potshots?

Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.

And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.

I think (true) Helbrutes are in a bad spot in our codex.

A TL-Las / ML is... average, but it pales in comparison to everything else we can run or Alpha legion ones. If I ever wanted to run Helbrutes with this configuration, I would take an Alpha Legion Chaos Lord with 3 Helbrutes as an allied Vanguard detachment.

As Thousand Sons, I would only ever run a dual fist version for 122pts and Warptime it forward (with Daemonic strength maybe). Cheap distraction unit that can be devastating if left alone.

TL-Heavy bolters and Missile launcher are both too expensive on this plateform (or rather, the plateform is too expensive to carry such low-performing weapons efficiently).

 Nym wrote:
I think (true) Helbrutes are in a bad spot in our codex.

A TL-Las / ML is... average, but it pales in comparison to everything else we can run or Alpha legion ones. If I ever wanted to run Helbrutes with this configuration, I would take an Alpha Legion Chaos Lord with 3 Helbrutes as an allied Vanguard detachment.

As Thousand Sons, I would only ever run a dual fist version for 122pts and Warptime it forward (with Daemonic strength maybe). Cheap distraction unit that can be devastating if left alone.

TL-Heavy bolters and Missile launcher are both too expensive on this plateform (or rather, the plateform is too expensive to carry such low-performing weapons efficiently).

Yai as contemptor has the hell brute key i think IS the only way for use brutes on thousan actually.

Here is my preliminary list.



My main concern is vehicles and monsters. I think I've got most everything else covered pretty well. This is only V1 of the list so I am plenty open to suggestions!

Why do you have three shamans? How many CPs do you plan on spending on deepstrike?

Does the fire frenzy strategy work on contemptors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a thought. The vindicator laser destroyer. Heavy 2 str 10 ap-5 6 damage. Coupled with a death hex could put some serious hurt on some of these monstrosities

demontalons wrote:
Does the fire frenzy strategy work on contemptors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And a thought. The vindicator laser destroyer. Heavy 2 str 10 ap-5 6 damage. Coupled with a death hex could put some serious hurt on some of these monstrosities

Yes It works.

Curzex wrote:
Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.

And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.

Sadly the inferno ammunition strategem only allows you to pick ONE weapon on the target to be AP-2. It's very bad.

Perhaps it will be FAQed but doubtful

demontalons wrote:
Perhaps it will be FAQed but doubtful

Im so sad :(
4CPs is so much for that.

 Haechi wrote:

Curzex wrote:
Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.

And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.

Sadly the inferno ammunition strategem only allows you to pick ONE weapon on the target to be AP-2. It's very bad.

Yes, but a twin heavy bolter counts as one weapon with regards to the inferno ammunition stratagem.

pismakron wrote:

 Haechi wrote:

Curzex wrote:
Hi guys, what about use hellforged predator instead normal Predator, It can be hurt on melee and have access to more weapons, yes, D6 mortals on psic units when it explotes hurts, but whatever.

And what about contemptor Double double heavy bolter with the Inferno ammonition stratagem. For 2CP you have 24 shots s5-2 36um hitting at 2+, put extalted here and party hard.

Sadly the inferno ammunition strategem only allows you to pick ONE weapon on the target to be AP-2. It's very bad.

Yes, but a twin heavy bolter counts as one weapon with regards to the inferno ammunition stratagem.

Yes but what? We're talking about a contemptor with 2 TL heavy bolters here.