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2018/02/11 02:01:08
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I don't see us as having a reason to run any helbrute but the contemptor, to make use of the fact that ours can fire frenzy while nobody else's can (for the moment, at least. I suspect our FAQ may include one for DG and CSM, changing the CSMs rubrics to 1 in 10 soulreaper and giving them the FF stratagem that works by keyword)
The only real reason is to fill an Elite slot if you're going for a brigade. In that instance I'd go las/ml because daddy needs anti-tank.
it lacks the daemon keyword which its competitors have, it has no invuln to boost up with Weaver, it doesn't benefit from our CT at all... I'm not feeling the basic brute.
Hellforged Contemptor on the other hand, I love. Double butchers all day every day.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2018/02/11 05:38:15
Subject: Re:All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Honestly though-why not simply take a helforged with any other legion?
I mean, literally ANY legion is strictly superior to TS once you factor the fact the stratagem will be FAQed one way or another without a doubt.
Yea, our basic helbrutes suck. for out helforged variants rely on gimmik stratagem that is likely getting FAQed in our already CP-hungry army. if you want helbrutes, or any of the bigger variants-take liturally any other legion.
If you want to play on the gimmik though-I agree that a contemptor may be good, but why not go a step further with a deredo armed with butcher array, THB and greater havoc?
Thougher body, and more guns to get the value of the CP off to.
Though I gotta say, using a non-CC helforged seems awkward, as you can't benefit from the healing factor you ARE paying for.
In any case, this is my current 2k list.
Goat free, magnus free (daemons inside though). and seems to work pretty well by virtue of alpha strike
Spoiler:
Terminator Sorcerer /w infcombi, axe, familiar-warlord (probably magistar), helm of third eye
Disk Ahriman
TS prince, wings and axe, dark matter crystal
BoomWolf wrote: Honestly though-why not simply take a helforged with any other legion?
I mean, literally ANY legion is strictly superior to TS once you factor the fact the stratagem will be FAQed one way or another without a doubt.
Yea, our basic helbrutes suck. for out helforged variants rely on gimmik stratagem that is likely getting FAQed in our already CP-hungry army. if you want helbrutes, or any of the bigger variants-take liturally any other legion.
If you want to play on the gimmik though-I agree that a contemptor may be good, but why not go a step further with a deredo armed with butcher array, THB and greater havoc?
Thougher body, and more guns to get the value of the CP off to.
Though I gotta say, using a non-CC helforged seems awkward, as you can't benefit from the healing factor you ARE paying for.
In any case, this is my current 2k list.
Goat free, magnus free (daemons inside though). and seems to work pretty well by virtue of alpha strike
Spoiler:
Terminator Sorcerer /w infcombi, axe, familiar-warlord (probably magistar), helm of third eye
Disk Ahriman
TS prince, wings and axe, dark matter crystal
The warlord, because I value the ability to supercast a singular critical spell very much. considering we pick spells AFTER seeing the enemy, I can pick a counter-spell on my terminator sorcerer, having him cast it with +2 as his first spell, or a decently likely +3 by placing a boon on him first (from the scarab) and pull up cabal casting for a +4/+5 to cast that spell.
Honestly, I don't like that trait very much. I'd rank it as the third trait in value, maybe.
Magistar being the best for sheer flexibility of casting better, and the ability to create a supercaster termi sorcerer.
Aetherstride being a second for it fact it lets your prince move and hit combat FAST, against your choice of target (especially if he can warptime himself and has wings. 24+2d6" before you even roll charge distance means nothing you hit whatever you want.)
Basically, I'm from the school of thought that "you don't need defenses against dead enemies"
Then there is the sad case of arrogance, who was insane on ahriman/magnus against enemy psyker lists, but honestly is just bad on anyone else. so amusingly the codex turned it from an amazing silver bullet into plain bad.
As for anti tank.
I have to trust the VotLW scarabs to do some work with the missiles/soulreapers on the drop, and then the princes to take care of it after. (and some random psyker dakka I guess)
That's basically why I gave my princes axes rather than swords-axes are better at cracking open armor.
Now, against a full-on armored battalion, I am probably in trouble. but against a -sane- number of tanks, I should be fine. and if its not a <fly> tank, I can entangle it with some horrors or something.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2018/02/11 10:00:18
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
More than 2?
I'd say 2 is enough exalted flamers. (forgot to point them out as additional AT solutions, rather obvious though, isn't it?)
Besides, I got nothing to shave off really. that list is exactly 2000 points of maximal optimizations. I need to change a LOT in order to fit another exalted flamer.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2018/02/11 10:53:37
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
This is the list I'm going for at the moment. It might look like it's lacking anti tank, but the DP and Tzaangors with VotLW are enough to blow up any T7 vehicle.
I'll be running tests soon
PLAYER : Haechi
DETACHMENT : Bataillon
HQ1 : Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [166]
HQ2 : Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with wings [180]
HQ3 : Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with Familiar [140]
Troup1 : 20 Rubric Marines with 2 Soulreaper cannons [433]
Troup2 : 30 Tzaangors with horn [220]
Troup3 : 30 Tzaangors with horn [220]
Elite1 : 10 Scarab Occult terminator with 2 hellfyre racks [448]
Elite2 : Tzaangor Shaman [90]
FA1 : 6 Tzaangor Enlightened with bows [102]
Total detachment : 1999
ARMY TOTAL [1999]
2018/02/11 19:53:23
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Haechi wrote: This is the list I'm going for at the moment. It might look like it's lacking anti tank, but the DP and Tzaangors with VotLW are enough to blow up any T7 vehicle.
I'll be running tests soon
PLAYER : Haechi
ARMY TOTAL [1999]
I'm going to try this one - painting my Enligtened right now
nintura wrote: Now if only Defiler's could get a better looking model. Like the Soulgrinder
I think that new Mini-knight fig they previewed recently seems like a prime candidate to convert into a really cool defiler.
Link?
I was talking about the Knight Armiger. There's a pic in the OPhere. It kind of depends on exactly how big it is, but I hate the Defiler model enough to explore every viable alternative, especially ones that will be tourney legal.
On a separate note, I'm putting a KSons slash Tzeentch Demon list together and I'm a little stuck. I won't post the whole list in detail, but I'll drop the broad strokes:
KSons: Arhiman on disc, Winged DP, Big unit of Goats, cultist filler, Shaman
Demons 1 : LoC, Changecaster, 30 Horrors, 27 Horrors, min Brim
Demons 2: Fluxmaster, 2 Exalted Flamers, 6 Flamers
The thought was to hit the psychic phase hard, DS some horrors to kill chaff, Webway Tzaangors to follow, season with Flamers, and serve with Large Demons punching people in the face. That's 10CPs, so there's room for shenanigans.
My difficulty is this: Magnus isn't all that much more than a LoC, and he's dead sexy. One the other hand, I'm already humming and hahing about the LoC because I think even with the robes he'll get nuked pretty fast 'cause there's nothing else worth shooting AT at. So, I have three options:
1. Find 135pts and upgrade to Magnus
2. Stick with the LoC 3. Downsize to a winged DP, spend 140pts elsewhere.
Thoughts? About the points. or the list in general I guess.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
2018/02/12 03:44:59
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I personally think that Magnus does not worth it competitive. He can hit hard but requires too much buffing - -1 to hit, +1 save, heal d3 etc
All those powers can be spend on killing enemies. His damage output is great but 8ed is edition of hordes. He can kill tanks easily but there are too many ways to just kill him: -1 to all saves from Eldars, remove invul save from CSM, nasty deny from Tyranids etc
He is okay for friendly or medium-hardcode game but it is 450pts spent for 1 model which can push hard, die easy and do not give any board control.
You can play Magnus as buffer and firepower soaker - he does not fly forward but stays with your army giving reroll 1's for casts and cast some offensive spells but... As it said imho he requires too many powers to keep him alive.
The very bad thing about Magnus - if you do not go first he can die before his turn 1 with his 4++. And only this can be the reason why you should not bring him for competitive game. imho
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 03:47:42
2018/02/12 04:00:46
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Yeah, I'd had all those same thoughts about magnus. The LoC still does solid work in the psychic phase, and the 3++ is, well, better than a 4++ I guess.
Tactically, I like the idea of having more than one caster with a bonus to cast, hence Ahriman and the LoC. I'm loath to give that up in a downgrade, but I do worry that even the 3++ won't be enough in the absence of any target saturation whatsoever. And yeah, I'd rather be zapping dudes in the psychic phase, all other things being equal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 04:01:10
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
2018/02/12 04:33:10
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I would downgrade to a DP. Heck my current setup I am trying to do 2 dp's, ones from deamon codex and one from tsons. Get them both at 3++ saves and let them have fun.
But the Lord of change, I enjoy taking him but he is only worth it if you can cover yourself with some serious target saturation. If that's the only "big guy / target for heavy weapons" then it doesn't matter how tough he is, he is going to get shot at.
Of course, you could deep strike him to protect him until your first turn.
2018/02/12 05:08:47
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
MinscS2 wrote: ArtyomTrityak - Our Daemon Princes don't have the option to take Warpbolters I'm afraid.
We can take warpbolters from Index: Chaos due to GW Can-I-Use chart.
Azuza001 wrote: I would downgrade to a DP. Heck my current setup I am trying to do 2 dp's, ones from deamon codex and one from tsons. Get them both at 3++ saves and let them have fun.
But the Lord of change, I enjoy taking him but he is only worth it if you can cover yourself with some serious target saturation. If that's the only "big guy / target for heavy weapons" then it doesn't matter how tough he is, he is going to get shot at.
Of course, you could deep strike him to protect him until your first turn.
I prefer to give +1 to cast to DP instead +1 to invul save. He works like my counter-charge, long range magic + warpbolter, reroll 1s to hit buffer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 05:11:30
2018/02/12 05:56:04
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I dont run magnu anymore, because as others have said 8th ed is the editon of hordes and hes just not worth it, ive had some success running him with a knight and or fire raptor but thats about it
2018/02/12 07:43:23
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Y'know I quite like the LoC now. I run him with incorporeal form too for -1 damage, as most things shooting at him will be multidamage.
He has other tempting traits but I find the -1 damage really dampens your opponent's interest in shooting your chicken.
He's not fantastic by any means, but he's done great work in most of his games. His one big downside is the S of his CC attacks - it really sucks that he can't be buffed other than with boon of change. Although every result on that table is nice for him, S8 would make him a lot more flexible. As it is, he's a bit of a schoolyard bully.
His biggest threat is death hex, but of course he has +2 to deny it, which is as good a defence as you can get against that evil spell.
His bigest weakness is the terrible quality of the Discipline of Tzeentch. Seriously, that discipline is utter pants. HOW did they settle on WC9 for bolt of change? What were they smoking? At least his mobility allows him to try and hit a second unit with infernal gateway sometimes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/12 09:21:23
2018/02/12 09:28:28
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Yeah, low strength is really annoying on the big chicken, but if you have some Mutaliths handing around they can bump him to the break points he needs to kick arse.
2018/02/12 10:15:52
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote: Yeah, low strength is really annoying on the big chicken, but if you have some Mutaliths handing around they can bump him to the break points he needs to kick arse.
It's probably worth it to take the baleful sword then right? You hit a little less, but you have higher strength and can deal more damage.
I'm not a huge fan of the sword, -1 to hit hurts so much, espectially if your hanging with a Price to reroll 1s. Also I usually prefer the guaranteed 3 damage over D6. Sepecially since we have access to so many sources of mortal would to knock potential targets to a multiple of 3 wounds left.
That said, it's only 10 point so often I'll squeeze it in as best use for some spare points, you don't have to use it.
Back on 1k sons themselves, how are people finding Enlightened to measure up in practice? They seem solid on paper, but only shine with a support character and aren't exactly hardy. Would love to hear some reports of actual in game performance (I don't have any yet).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm tempted to use 1-2 5 Goat units of them as cheep (ish) screening unit, without the shaman. 85 point seems like a bargain for 5 with Bows.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/12 13:14:19
2018/02/12 13:56:24
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Goats look like the stand-out unit in the codex. It's baffling that GW has priced them so cheaply. They are cheaper than basic rubric marines.
I think 81 would be about the number that I'd recommend, with some shamans dotted around the place. You'll get stupid numbers of wounds out of them.
GW have managed to write 3 chaos marine codexes now. The best CSM lists have no chaos marines in. The best Death Guard lists have no Plague marines in and the best Tsons lists have no Rubric marines in. Fail.
2018/02/12 14:44:23
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
There was a few things in the tau list besides commanders, fire warriors, stealth suits and drones, so I wouldn't call it "tournament level" tau, but it was certainly mid-level competitive when it comes to Tau. My tzaangor blob did its thing and honestly I regret the 2cp I spent on Cycle of Slaughter..they killed like 100 points total with both rounds of combat. Their biggest utility was absorbing most of the drop alpha from the Tau, then the rest of the game was pretty much carried on the backs of rubrics and one unit of insanely overachieving flamers.
End of the game, I had my Terminator Sorceror at full health despite having taken 5 wounds (yay temporal distortion) and he was casting at +3 and +2 thanks to Boon of Mutation, Spell Familiar, and Warlord Trait. Rubrics, Scarabs, Contemptor and Sorcerors pretty much tabled the Tau by turn 5 with the daemons just gumming up the works and dying slowly.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2018/02/12 15:30:16
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
Mandragola wrote: Goats look like the stand-out unit in the codex. It's baffling that GW has priced them so cheaply. They are cheaper than basic rubric marines.
I think 81 would be about the number that I'd recommend, with some shamans dotted around the place. You'll get stupid numbers of wounds out of them.
GW have managed to write 3 chaos marine codexes now. The best CSM lists have no chaos marines in. The best Death Guard lists have no Plague marines in and the best Tsons lists have no Rubric marines in. Fail.
Yeah, I've heard lots of this, but do you have any actual experience of using then in a game?
2018/02/12 16:21:26
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
MinscS2 wrote: ArtyomTrityak - Our Daemon Princes don't have the option to take Warpbolters I'm afraid.
We can take warpbolters from Index: Chaos due to GW Can-I-Use chart.
I think that's a questionable interpretation. There is no "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" in the Index: Chaos. There's an entry for "Daemon Prince," which can take a warp bolter. But "Damon Prince" isn't an option in the Thousand Sons codex.
The Can-I-Use-It chart would seem to imply that the "Daemon Prince" unit from C:CSM can still take Warp Bolters from the index, but the TSDP was specifically given a different, unique name. You might be able to convince some people that because they're represented by the same physical model, you can ignore the fact that they have different names and do a mix-and-match with a Warp Bolter and the DPoT's psychic prowess, but I think it's far from a given. I certainly wouldn't just show up to a tournament with Warp Bolters listed on all my DPs of Tzeentch without checking with the TO in advance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/12 16:22:52
2018/02/12 17:40:15
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
I think that's a questionable interpretation. There is no "Daemon Prince of Tzeentch" in the Index: Chaos. There's an entry for "Daemon Prince," which can take a warp bolter. But "Damon Prince" isn't an option in the Thousand Sons codex.
The Can-I-Use-It chart would seem to imply that the "Daemon Prince" unit from C:CSM can still take Warp Bolters from the index, but the TSDP was specifically given a different, unique name. You might be able to convince some people that because they're represented by the same physical model, you can ignore the fact that they have different names and do a mix-and-match with a Warp Bolter and the DPoT's psychic prowess, but I think it's far from a given. I certainly wouldn't just show up to a tournament with Warp Bolters listed on all my DPs of Tzeentch without checking with the TO in advance.
That's interesting. It would be great if they would answer this in FAQ
2018/02/12 18:35:36
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
You still can have a Prince with Warp Bolter but you need to use the Index Datasheet for TS Prince (the normal one that can be given a TS keyword as part of a TS army in the Index)
You are not allowed to take equipment from a different datasheet
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2018/02/12 18:49:49
Subject: All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!
kodos wrote: You still can have a Prince with Warp Bolter but you need to use the Index Datasheet for TS Prince (the normal one that can be given a TS keyword as part of a TS army in the Index)
You are not allowed to take equipment from a different datasheet
...so he wouldn't get daemon powers or Change or the extra cast....
not anywhere near worthwhile, IMO.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
