All is dust! All is dust! 8th Ed. TSons tactics!

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**Voidwraith**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
pismakron wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.

If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.

Why? every single other infantry squad in every army basically can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. Some infantry (ie Tyranid Warriors) can get a heavy weapon every 3 models. I really think that we should be getting our soulreaper in 5 models.

Over the weekend, I decided that the soulreaper cannon wasn't worthy of chasing and reduced my Rubrics to 9-man squads. I've been free ever since and am now also in line with Tzeentch.

**BoomWolf**

Would be a rather dick more on their side, and will create (some) backlash for literally no gains on their part.
I could see them making the decision to just let it be on 5 man squads.

**pismakron**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
pismakron wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.

If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.

Why? every single other infantry squad in every army basically can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. Some infantry (ie Tyranid Warriors) can get a heavy weapon every 3 models. I really think that we should be getting our soulreaper in 5 models.

That is not really true. Boyz, Guardsmen and others all get a heavy weapon per 10 models. But all that doesn't matter in the end. There is only one soulreaper cannon on the sprue, which is what matters to GW. What Tyranid Warriors and Shoota-boyz can take really isn't a factor here. That is how I see it.

**Fenris-77**

Keep in mind the Rubrics get their 'special' weapon on every dude if they want to pay for it. I'd rather have A Soulreaper/5 though.

**Azuza001**

Voidwraith wrote:
Finally got the codex and did a total revamp of the list I'm building towards over the weekend.

Adding a Helbrute with Scourge and Twin Heavy Bolter, which I will upgrade to -2AP with the Inferno Bolts stratagem. He will either help protect my backfield or move forward and kill objective camping troops.

Adding a Defiler with Scourge and keeping his shooting options cheap. He'll be the melee beast he's supposed to be and is a good candidate for a 1st turn Warptime.

Adding a Forgefiend with double Hades autocannons and the mouthgun. His role is obvious...priority candidate for Daemonfoge stratagem.

Adding a Maulerfiend, who I imagine will either be overlooked because of all of the above or, if prioritized, help protect what's above.

I just thought it was funny that the recent posts are all about comparing the Helbrute, Defiler, and fiends, and my mind has been like "hey, just add one of each!"

Lol I hear ya. My standard list at 1250 or above is a Defiler and a Forgefiend. If one gets focused it gets the healing and protection spells to keep it alive long enough to get back in the game. If one gets focused to death well, I still have another toy to play withdrawal that's just as nasty.

My thing is at 1500+ I add a Helldrake in instead of a Maulerfiend. But a Maulerfiend with all the buffs sent forward to slaughter can be stupid nasty.
-1 to hit, 4++ invulnerable, 6-dmg str 8 attacks at -2 Ap and 2 dmg. That's not a bad way to spend 155 pts and a few spells. Have a deamon prince hanging out with it for reroll 1's and the deamon prince can be Scooby-Doo and shaggy, killing whatever they hit.

**Heelidar**

It is all down to wording. The wording in CSM codex is ok. I don't see a problem with a sprue. Why aren't they bothered with adding twin HB or lascannons on a defiler sprue then?

**topaxygouroun i**

pismakron wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
pismakron wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Man if the faq comes next weekend and we get 1 soulreaper per 5 rubrics then my list will fit into 2000 pts really like a glove.

If they are going to FAQ anything, it will be the CSM codex entry that allows a soulreaper cannon in a five-rubric squad.

Why? every single other infantry squad in every army basically can get a special/heavy weapon in 5 models. Some infantry (ie Tyranid Warriors) can get a heavy weapon every 3 models. I really think that we should be getting our soulreaper in 5 models.

That is not really true. Boyz, Guardsmen and others all get a heavy weapon per 10 models. But all that doesn't matter in the end. There is only one soulreaper cannon on the sprue, which is what matters to GW. What Tyranid Warriors and Shoota-boyz can take really isn't a factor here. That is how I see it.

Boyz and guardsmen (and also cultists) are 4-6 pt horde models, not 18 pt elite cult units. Also, the wording in CSM is perfectly applicable to how the box is built "You can add a soulreaper cannon in the unit. If the unit has 20 rubric marines, you can have a second one". Lets you do 1 cannon in 5 or 2 in 20. Much better than 1 in 10, and much more fair for us too.

**Daedalus81**

Fenris-77 wrote:
I agree that options 1 and 2 are legit - both effective and efficient (IMO anyway), but they both essentially treat Rubrics like Intercessors, just with slightly different rules and synergies.

What I was really asking about are options 2-4. Options 2 and 3 will run 200-250+ points, and option 4 starts at, what 360? That a lot of points in either case, and it feels like a lot of points for a squad that's mostly built around -2AP bolters and buffs. I'm not hating on the Rubes here, they've been a favorite of mine for years, I'm just not feeling the large squads unless efficiency is mostly out the window.

I think it works in a list like this. 9 CP and 67 points to spare. Shove the Tzaangors and Rubrics in the Webway. Ahriman buffs and heals the fiends. Cultists buffer your deployment and cap objectives. Tzaangors come down turn 1 and warp time in. Maulerfiends rush up and put the pressure on. Turn two the Rubrics come in and open holes to let the Maulerfiends warptime deeper in using reroll charges from the Mutalith.

**topaxygouroun i**

How are you going to get the Mutalith in range of the charging tzaangors T1? Perhaps bring the rubrics first, then bring the tzaangors down second turn? This will give you one turn of super charge with multiple maulerfiends and tzaangors, and by then the Mutalith will have moved twice and be that much closer to the tzaangors.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
FAQ is up. We basically got nothing except typo fixes.

**nintura**

Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.

**Fenris-77**

OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.

Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.

**topaxygouroun i**

nintura wrote:
Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.

"We make rules balanced for everyone". Read "We made a box with only one heavy weapon in it, tough luck my man."

**Daedalus81**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
How are you going to get the Mutalith in range of the charging tzaangors T1? Perhaps bring the rubrics first, then bring the tzaangors down second turn? This will give you one turn of super charge with multiple maulerfiends and tzaangors, and by then the Mutalith will have moved twice and be that much closer to the tzaangors.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
FAQ is up. We basically got nothing except typo fixes.

Mutalith is for the Maulerfiends. Tzaangors are there to die and give some flexibility depending on the opponent. The nice thing is you can adjust the plan to even what you suggest. It's probably my favorite part of this book.

**topaxygouroun i**

Fenris-77 wrote:
OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.

Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.

You can't take horrors in TS armies, only summon them. You need to include Daemon detachments, and then you don't have TS any more.

**Fenris-77**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
How are you going to get the Mutalith in range of the charging tzaangors T1?

It moves 8" and the powers are range 9" - that should generally be enough threat range unless you're DS inside the enemy deployment zone.

**MinscS2**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
How are you going to get the Mutalith in range of the charging tzaangors T1?

Not always possible, but with it's 8" move, D6" advance and 9" aura-range it's possible to reach a big unit of Webway Infiltrating Tzaangors on turn 1 if you deploy it right, especially if you let one Tzaangor stay back, closer to the Mutalith.

If whatever your Tzaangors are charging is hugging the opposite table edge, then yeah nah, the Mutalith won't reach.
Edit: Unless you're feeling ballsy and Warptime the Mutalith instead of the Tzaangors that is.

**Fenris-77**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Fenris-77 wrote:
OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.

Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.

You can't take horrors in TS armies, only summon them. You need to include Daemon detachments, and then you don't have TS any more.

That last bit is opinion, not fact. Some people might like mono armies, but that's not how 8th Ed works. Not hating btw, I like mono armies, they aren't the playing field that 8th works on (whether we like it or not).

**topaxygouroun i**

Fenris-77 wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
Fenris-77 wrote:
OK, I like it. Now, what happens when I ask if that 433pt unit does the job you describe better or worse than 60 Horrors. You see where I'm going? The Horrors drop 180 shots (out of DS if that's your thing) also with all kinds of buff potential.

Both units have lots of buffs available, but I wonder if KSons players aren't taking a bit of a bath taking Rubrics instead of Horrors, generally speaking. I do like Dark Matter Crystal Shenanigans, so there's that, but it feels more niche than a straight out equalizer. Plus the crystal could be used on other units for late game type[ stuff anyway. IDK. Maybe I just wanted Rubrics ot be a more obvious choice in the list that is defined by them.

You can't take horrors in TS armies, only summon them. You need to include Daemon detachments, and then you don't have TS any more.
That last bit is opinion, not fact. Some people might like mono armies, but that's not how 8th Ed works. Not hating btw, I like mono armies, they aren't the playing field that 8th works on (whether we like it or not).

Except it is not. The Thousand Sons codex is pretty clear on this. This is the tactics section about Thousand Son armies, not the tactics section about Daemon armies. Suggesting to remove rubric marines for horrors to improve the "Thousand Sons" army is anything but.

**nintura**

Well, I'm joining the Tin Foilers after this faq. I'm almost positive Rubrics are useless.

**topaxygouroun i**

nintura wrote:
Well, I'm joining the Tin Foilers after this faq. I'm almost positive Rubrics are useless.

Frick it. I am using a CSM vanguard. I will pay a tax of a chaos lord if they want me to, but I will get my soulfire cannons.

**Guyver 3**

It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.

**Daedalus81**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
nintura wrote:
Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.

"We make rules balanced for everyone". Read "We made a box with only one heavy weapon in it, tough luck my man."

I don't know if it's unbalanced. I can see where a Soulreaper in 5 might be a little much, because no one would take anything else given we get a free sorcerer to boot. I would prefer 1 in 5, but i'm not going to die if we never get it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guyver 3 wrote:
It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.

If you're walking rubrics and then comparing them to tzaangors with spells/support then you're gonna have a bad time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nintura wrote:
Well, I'm joining the Tin Foilers after this faq. I'm almost positive Rubrics are useless.

Be honest you were there before the book was out.

**topaxygouroun i**

Daedalus81 wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
nintura wrote:
Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.

"We make rules balanced for everyone". Read "We made a box with only one heavy weapon in it, tough luck my man."

I don't know if it's unbalanced. I can see where a Soulreaper in 5 might be a little much, because no one would take anything else given we get a free sorcerer to boot. I would prefer 1 in 5, but i'm not going to die if we never get it.

Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.

I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.

**Guyver 3**

.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guyver 3 wrote:
It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.

If you're walking rubrics and then comparing them to tzaangors with spells/support then you're gonna have a bad time.

You’re making that assumption!

I’m talking about whole game impact. Did the rubrics do their job? I suppose but did they do a job that couldn’t be done as well or better by a cheaper unit!

I think acceptance that rubrics are meh is a hard pill to swallow, GW have designed the book to be codex tzaangors and wizards not codex rubric marines

**nintura**

Daedalus81 wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
nintura wrote:
Welp, FAQ is out. FW Helbrutes are out of Fire Frenzy. They didn't touch the Soulreaper per 10 men.

"We make rules balanced for everyone". Read "We made a box with only one heavy weapon in it, tough luck my man."

I don't know if it's unbalanced. I can see where a Soulreaper in 5 might be a little much, because no one would take anything else given we get a free sorcerer to boot. I would prefer 1 in 5, but i'm not going to die if we never get it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Guyver 3 wrote:
It’s upsetting to find out that rubrics are just meh. I played on Sunday with 2 ten man squads and a 5 man sot squad none of the units had anywhere near the impact of the 30 tzaangors that I ds and warptimed on my turn 1. Even the 6 man enlightened unit that was reduced to 3 models before they shot had a bigger impact when used as a bodyguard to a shaman and Ahriman.

If you're walking rubrics and then comparing them to tzaangors with spells/support then you're gonna have a bad time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nintura wrote:
Well, I'm joining the Tin Foilers after this faq. I'm almost positive Rubrics are useless.

Be honest you were there before the book was out.

Not really. I figured GW was just taking them in a bad direction, but what I mean now, is that it really does seem they did it on purpose just to push sales. I like to give the company the benefit of the doubt but wow....

**Daedalus81**

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.

I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.

I peril more on Ahriman than I do my rubrics. In fact I can't remember the last time I did. Anecdotal, sure, but there it is. I don't play my games based around a 1 in 16 chance. Firestorm and Boon are a perfectly competent spells for them to cast and they can regularly achieve smite at 6 and 7.

**Captyn_Bob**

So the faqs out.

Nothing too exciting.

No change on rubrics and soulreapers

FW helbrutes back to not being able to use fire frenzy

Exalted sorcerors can take two swords.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bolt of change down to power 8 which is correct.
No acknowledgement that glamour is one power higher than the identical Nurgle spell.

**MinscS2**

topaxygouroun i wrote:
What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore..

6-9+ to cast lore, not 7-9+.

Weaver of Fates and Temporal Manipulation are both 6+.

**blackmage**

i would like to try Ts detachment (battalion) with vanilla chaos (another battalion), someone had some experience with that? what did you play? thanks.

**Voidwraith**

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Though it's not really a "free sorcerer" now is it? He can't cast smite to save his life and he instantly kills half his own unit the moment he perils. What he is left with is the Thousand Sons lore to pick his power from, and that's a 7-9+ to cast lore. Plus practically every spell that you would want to cast in the game you would actually give to a sorcerer with a bonus to cast. So in effect it's not a free sorcerer, it's a unit champion. And nobody pays for those any more either.

I will have to board the Nintura boat on this one. Rubrics without 4++, with 15 pt flamers (wot), with only 1 heavy weapon allowed in 10 models (like we are fricking cultists and not ancient powerful elite Cult troupe) and with an all-but-useless aspiring sorcerer whose only saving grace is a plasma pistol option. Rubrics are useless.

If only Rubrics had a better than normal rapid fire weapon. Something with, I dunno, a -2 AP or something. That, and just hear me out, what if they were as tough as Terminators against small arms fire and have a 5++ to help against the big guns? Wouldn't that be cool?

/sarcasm off

Look, I'm not saying they're the best troop unit in the game or anything, but to talk as if Rubrics have nothing going for them is insanity.