Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I got some games in with the Thousands Sons versus the new Necrons. Generally, very happy with the performance of the sons. My list was:

Ahriman on foot
Sorcerer in terminator armour with a familiar (warlord trait +1 to cast) and dark matter crystal

2x9 Rubrics with inferno bolters in rhinos
30 tzaangors with the horn

10 scarab occult with 2x hellfyre missile racks

3x predators with pred auto cannon and 2 las cannons.

General plan was for termie sorcerer and tzaangors to drop early and cause damage and gum up the enemy lines. Termie sorcerer casts warptime to guarantee the charge and prescience on the tzaangors. Votlw and a second combat phase if necessary. Second turn scarabs drop in and receive the same buffs from the sorcerer. Meanwhile Rubrics and Ahriman take the midfield while the predators pick apart enemy armour.

The list has 8 drops so I was frequently going first which is pretty important in the heavy support fire fight.

Take away for me were:
Killshot stratgem is brutal but counterproductive versus quantum shielding. Killshot can wax a monolith in a single turn of concentrated fire. If going first and there are no good targets it isn’t a terrible idea to advance with the rhinos and predators and pop smoke. Best to lose only one turn of shooting and make your armour as hardy as possible.

As good as deepstriking and charging Tzaangors is - sometimes the better play is to use them to bubble wrap the predators to prevent first turn charges. An alternative approach might be set up the Rubrics out of their rhino to screen for the preds and a well placed Ahriman can let the preds re-roll 1s to hit on the killshot.

Scarab occult are tough as nails but even when buffed up they will die to destroyer fire real quick. Dark matter crystal is a great way of either moving the sorcerer to the scarabs drop zone or pull scarabs out of a combat on turn 3 to free them up to shoot and charge something else.

Ahriman on foot with 2 squads of Rubrics is just fine and very handy to use kabalistic focus for +2 to cast key spells (death hex on wraith for example). It can sometimes be worthwhile to use the familiar stratagem to swap in diabolical strength to let Ahriman hit at s8 with 5 attacks.

Generally the list felt well rounded. It has enough tricks to be quite flexible in a take all comers format but it doesn’t feel too OP as you only have enough CPs to execute some, but not all, of its tricks.

So I'm genuinly starting to think that the first units in any 1ksons list for me from now on will start with maybe 1 but probably 2 Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They plug such a big hole in our lists imo, in terms of high-accuracy anti tank/elite. Both the Butcher cannon and C-beam are very tasty weapons, and both have great secondary effects on infantry units (-2 leadership/ extra 2d6 hits at S6).

They still make good gun platforms when you give them a fist (eg. Kheres & Ecto Blaster) and are highly accurate monsters in CC.

They're a lot tougher than Predators (5++/4++ in CC) and really benefit from standard powers such as infernal strength, glamour, deathhex and warptime.

Most important of all they clock in at between 163-190pts, unless you go crazy on them. Very nice price point.

Finally, we have one of the best models in the game for our Contemptors - the FW Osiron. Man, that thing is beautiful, and really injects a bit more Rubricae theme into your list - something that a lot of us are worried about post-codex.

So what are your experiences with them? How do you use/spec yours?

I’ve been using a contemptor with butcher cannon and fist. It’s a great all rounder allowing me to advance or defend and the 10 inch move is great.

The only issue I have is that you can’t heal them with temporal manipulation. I run mine with a regular las/missile dread and they get the job done at 1500. At 2k I throw in a detailed and that’s my long range/ anti melee monster units

demontalons wrote:
I’ve been using a contemptor with butcher cannon and fist. It’s a great all rounder allowing me to advance or defend and the 10 inch move is great.

The only issue I have is that you can’t heal them with temporal manipulation. I run mine with a regular las/missile dread and they get the job done at 1500. At 2k I throw in a detailed and that’s my long range/ anti melee monster units

Why can't contemptors be healed with temporal manipulation?

On their data sheet it says they can only regain wounds through machine malifica. I.e eating someone in close combat and it specifically states that they cannot regain wounds any other way

demontalons wrote:
On their data sheet it says they can only regain wounds through machine malifica. I.e eating someone in close combat and it specifically states that they cannot regain wounds any other way

Did this change? I could have sworn the wording of the rule was specific to the turn, i.e. you could use Machina Malefica or something else, but not both in a single turn.

Looking at my digital copy of the FW index, it has Lord Arkos with the Alpha Legion keyword. Pretty sure that didn't used to be there.

 techsoldaten wrote:

demontalons wrote:
On their data sheet it says they can only regain wounds through machine malifica. I.e eating someone in close combat and it specifically states that they cannot regain wounds any other way

Did this change? I could have sworn the wording of the rule was specific to the turn, i.e. you could use Machina Malefica or something else, but not both in a single turn.

Looking at my digital copy of the FW index, it has Lord Arkos with the Alpha Legion keyword. Pretty sure that didn't used to be there.

It did change, in the FW Index Chaos FAQ
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_chaos.pdf

So defiler load out?

Go more melee and keep the weapons cheap or make it a fire base with combo bolter twin las havoc and battle cannon? Boost it with flickering flames and prescience and use demonforge and laugh?

The sourge does not degenerate and it is sheep. The way to Go for meine.

demontalons wrote:
So defiler load out?

Go more melee and keep the weapons cheap or make it a fire base with combo bolter twin las havoc and battle cannon? Boost it with flickering flames and prescience and use demonforge and laugh?

I run mine with dual laz and a scourge. I use it as a fire base, at minimum casting Flickering flames and weaver of fate on it so it's wounding pretty much everything on 2's and getting protected from incoming fire by half. Glamor of tzeench can also help make it a beast / hard to kill. Deamonforge for a cp means your probably hitting with almost everything, and if you want it to be a mobile fire Support cast prescience on it. That may be a lot to cast but arhiman and a sorcerer can do it and still have a slot left for repair magic. However if your going to do this kind of thing I found your going to want at least 2 deamon machines there, 2 defilers, or a defiler and a forgefiend because when ones dies the other can be boosted still. But yeah, defilers of the thosand sons rock.

That feels like wasting all our good powers on a mediocre unit.

Surely things like weaver, glamour and flickering flames are better saved for units which are more useful? tzaangor with glamour and weaver are devastating (combine with warptime for the nasty goatbomb.) and flickering flames is best used on pink horrors

Sneggy wrote:
tzaangor with glamour and weaver are devastating (combine with warptime for the nasty goatbomb.) and flickering flames is best used on pink horrors

Well, it is sad indeed that Pink Horrors are a better tank-hunting unit than Defilers (shooting). But they can be tied up in CC while a Defiler will usually crush anything that comes close to it. And the Defiler's weapons range usually keeps it safe from return fire.

I agree though that you need another big target otherwise he's toast. That's why I usually run a Lord of Change with Impossible robe and -1 damage (Warlord trait) along with my Daemon Engines, to act as a Distraction Carnifex. So far it has worked rather well, and I only use Temporal Manipulation to keep the Daemon engine alive (Glamour and Weaver are barely needed).

Also not all those spells need to be put on him. It's about target options, if there are no t9 targets then Flickering flames don't need to be put on. If your opponent is more afraid of the tzaangors then put glamor on them. I was just explaining how I run mine.

So I am getting back into 40K after a long hiatus (left around the start of 5th ed), and looking to get back in. I am looking to do a mixed Tzeentch list. I have some old daemons, some new Thousand Sons, and some WFB/AoS stuff that's now in 40K apparently. 2K is what is mainly played at my club, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around list building. Hoping for some example lists and general advice with my collection..

On the TS side I have:

Magnus the Red
2x Tzaangor Shamans
10x Scarab Occult Terminators w/ 2x Soulreapers (have the missile bits, but undecided on usefulness)
20x Tzaangors (melee variant)
6x Enlightened with bows
3x Enlightened with spears
Mutalith Vortex Beast

Daemons

Lord of Change w/ rod
Herald of Tzeentch w/ rod
The Changeling
Blue Scribes
20x Pink Horrors
30x Blue Horrors
30x Brimstone Horrors
6x Flamers
6x Screamers
2x Burning Chariots

Lastly I have a few more models that I might be able to get away with counts as (opinions welcome on that):

Ogroid Thaumaturge (thought he might make for a decent Tzeentch Daemon Prince)
Gaunt Summoner (hes on a 40mm, but I thought he might make a decent alternative for 2nd Tzeentch Herald)
40x Kairic Acolytes (they are on 32s. Might be able to run them as Cultists or less mutated Tzaangors?)

AverageBoss wrote:
So I am getting back into 40K after a long hiatus (left around the start of 5th ed), and looking to get back in. I am looking to do a mixed Tzeentch list. I have some old daemons, some new Thousand Sons, and some WFB/AoS stuff that's now in 40K apparently. 2K is what is mainly played at my club, but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around list building. Hoping for some example lists and general advice with my collection..

On the TS side I have:

Magnus the Red
2x Tzaangor Shamans
10x Scarab Occult Terminators w/ 2x Soulreapers (have the missile bits, but undecided on usefulness)
20x Tzaangors (melee variant)
6x Enlightened with bows
3x Enlightened with spears
Mutalith Vortex Beast

Daemons

Lord of Change w/ rod
Herald of Tzeentch w/ rod
The Changeling
Blue Scribes
20x Pink Horrors
30x Blue Horrors
30x Brimstone Horrors
6x Flamers
6x Screamers
2x Burning Chariots

Lastly I have a few more models that I might be able to get away with counts as (opinions welcome on that):

Ogroid Thaumaturge (thought he might make for a decent Tzeentch Daemon Prince)
Gaunt Summoner (hes on a 40mm, but I thought he might make a decent alternative for 2nd Tzeentch Herald)
40x Kairic Acolytes (they are on 32s. Might be able to run them as Cultists or less mutated Tzaangors?)

Firstly, get another 10 tzaangors. A squad of 30 should be a must for any good tsons list. Also buy Ahriman. He is extremely good, another must. I don't know much about tzeentch daemons so I will go for a list of the tsons half.

Battalion
Ahriman 166
Tzeentch daemon prince with axe (ogroid has a axey looking thing right?) 156
30 tzaangors with horn 220
10 cultists (kairic acolytes are definitely cultists, if opponent asks about pistols say that their AOS shooting ability is their form of a pistol) 40
10 cultists 40
5 SOT w/ soulreaper 216
5 SOT w/ soulreaper 216
6 bow enlightened 92
Shaman 90

Super heavy
Magnus 445

This brings you to 1681 points, leaving some room for anything else you feel like. Perhaps some cheapo brimstones?
Hope this helps!

So here is a question, how do we deal with Tau? Their suits seem to put out such a huge amount of firepower, and their drones block everything. Spells get blocked, heavy weapons get blocked, 4++ saves or 3++ saves depending on the unit, plus overwatch on 5's and they can have their pals also join in on overwatch. Seems like a tough nut to Crack.

Tzaangors or cultists. Lots of them.

Or chaos soup.

There's no other way really apart from being lucky and playing normally.

I was thinking mutalith vortex beasts myself. 9" mortal wound to all enemy units seems to be a good way to kill drones in mass. Plus they could support a large tzaangors squad easily.

Against tau you really need the right spells. For instance death hex is critical for stripping rip tides of their inv and then letting whatever heavy support you have go to town on them.

Also if he’s bunching up his drones use the strat to switch one of your spells for infernal gateway. If you use it on a sorceror terminator and the strat for plus 2 you’re casting on a 4 and getting d6 mortal wounds on everything within 3 inches of that model on an 8.

Ideally warp talons are of good use to break a tau castle. If you don’t have that a large tzaangors horde warptimes into it should be enough to break through a drone line.

Good ideas. I didn't even think of infernal gateway, and death hex is a must. I always put it on my warlord for the 2+ to first cast in case it's needed.

I love combat but it seems trying to combat crisis suits is a waste while the drones live, they will just intercept high damage and then fly their suits out of combat to shoot us again. Warp talons do sound like an excellent option for dealing with that.

We are still waiting for FAQ from GW to be posted online, but here are the tidbits they teased on the stream:

- Grey Knights/Thousand Sons have an exemption of sorts from the smite restriction.
- +1 to cast to smite, rather than -1. Max 11, 11 and 12 does supersmite.
- Max 3 units of the same datasheets, troops and dedicated transports are an exception. That means max 3 daemon princes or max 27 tzaangor enlightened. BETA rule
- Soup detachments are affected somehow, but it was unclear, cannot mix detachments?
- 5CP for batallion, 12 CP for brigade

- point adjustments will be posted in the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
apparently we've been cheating. The Warhammer 40k Rulebook has a rule in it that units that have been played in reinformencts/reserves cannot be moved by any means, and they specifically mention Warp Time. but the book was last updated January 22nd.

nintura wrote:
apparently we've been cheating. The Warhammer 40k Rulebook has a rule in it that units that have been played in reinformencts/reserves cannot be moved by any means, and they specifically mention Warp Time. but the book was last updated January 22nd.

Ya, it's most strange. I noticed it because I randomly looked at the rulebook FAQ, assuming it had been updated with the rest. It kills the tzaangor bomb as a reliable tactic and blasts it into 'silly pray-it-works' territory. Granted, tzaangor get +1 to charge and there's a spell to reroll a dice, so it's not as bad as most armies, but it still has unacceptable odds of success - you'll fail it something like 40% of the time?

Slashy McTalons wrote:

nintura wrote:
apparently we've been cheating. The Warhammer 40k Rulebook has a rule in it that units that have been played in reinformencts/reserves cannot be moved by any means, and they specifically mention Warp Time. but the book was last updated January 22nd.

Ya, it's most strange. I noticed it because I randomly looked at the rulebook FAQ, assuming it had been updated with the rest. It kills the tzaangor bomb as a reliable tactic and blasts it into 'silly pray-it-works' territory. Granted, tzaangor get +1 to charge and there's a spell to reroll a dice, so it's not as bad as most armies, but it still has unacceptable odds of success - you'll fail it something like 40% of the time?

The update date was wrong for the rulebook, it has now been fixed and indicates 16/04.

Goodbye Tzaangor bombs.

Also that absurd Enlightened army is dead.

...and the Rubrics were not mentioned in the slightest. As in, they still have two separate datasheets equally valid at the same time. After 2 rounds of FAQs.

Question is, what do we even play now? Rubrics are still meh, scarabs are even worse (no DS potential on turn 1), tzaangor bomb is out. Honestly, what is left to use at this point?

I think the only viable list at the moment is to use a tzeentch only soup (Tzeentch is not in the forbidden keywords so we can mix and match between codexes as long as it's Tzeentch.

Pink/brimstone horrors as troops, CSM rubric marines MSU with soulreaper cannons as elites, oblits of tzeentch as heavy?

We need a viable shooting line to soften up units until a turn 2 drop. That or we need a lot more rhinos.

It’s not all bad news. Even without warptime we can get a tzaangor here on turn 2 in combat with relative ease. With the gaze of fate power we can still burn a cp reroll to get them into CC. And then burn the gaze of fate reroll to get into CC. It’s not guaranteed but it’s the best we can do.

unfortunately I think this means that tsons with flamers have to be in rhino for turn 2 hits. So rhino rush and warptime the rhino pop smoke, add glamor for -2, and then burn some CP and throw a big unit of cultists to support it.

Normal gors running up the field screening DPs and shamans, plus the bow guys and a defiler for some shooting is what I've been running. It's not a high level tournament winner or anything but it's been pretty viable at the local level and this FAQ doesn't really touch it.

Well, we may be hit quite hard by the BETA rules for DS


But we also gain a lot from them-not needing to wrap our own things as much.


Not to mention, we are perhaps the most CP hungry army in the game, and there are more CPs around now to have in our list, and to drain with the helm.

So what is the viability of dsing 30 tzaangors and getting that 9" charge off?

Azuza001 wrote:
So what is the viability of dsing 30 tzaangors and getting that 9" charge off?

Not very good if you do it like that.

Instead:

Reserve your bomb and a big Rubric blob.
First turn drop your Tzaangors in your deployment zone. buff them to hell to survive one turn of shooting (or use an extra 30-strong blob).
Second turn drop in the Rubrics and the termie sorcerer. Use Dark Matter crystal to send your blob in the front. Use the rubrics to clear the chaff away, warptime your tzaangors with the termie sorc (use stratagem, high magister and familiar for a +4 to cast) and then proceed to slaughter.