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So the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut isnt likely to get much worse.....right? I really like the model and want to get one but the rational side of me is saying to wait for the codex. But since its pretty meh/bad right now, even if it doesnt change at all it still would be nice to have one.

Without wanting to down your hopes, just because it gets better, doesn't mean it's good.

Best example would be Flash Gits - in 7th the have been vastly better than in 4th-6th(probably one of the worst units in the game at that time) and in 8th they are a lot better than ins 7th. Yet, they still aren't good enough.

 Jidmah wrote:
Without wanting to down your hopes, just because it gets better, doesn't mean it's good.

Best example would be Flash Gits - in 7th the have been vastly better than in 4th-6th(probably one of the worst units in the game at that time) and in 8th they are a lot better than ins 7th. Yet, they still aren't good enough.

What are you talking about? My Flash Gitz are always my best unit in the game! I mean who wouldn't want a MASSIVELY expensive infantry unit with a short ranged heavy weapon and a 6+ save?

As for taking a PK or a BC? I don't take either one anymore. A PK at 25pts last edition was worth taking because you could WRECK vehicles with it. This edition? even if you roll PERFECTLY your average nob will get 4 attacks (+1 for 20mob) 4 hits, 4wounds and 12 damage at the ABSOLUTE MOST! realistically, against a regular T7 3+ save vehicle though he will average 4 attacks, 3 hits 2 wounds and 4 damage with two 1/3rd chances to save 2 dmg so about a 50/50. A Big Choppa on the other hand will get 4 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds and only has -1 ap so a 50/50 of inflicting 2 damage. Basically neither is worth anything anymore against vehicles, against elite infantry they do ok, but you have Boyz that do the same thing anyway.

Basically GW needs to drastically buff PKs and BCs to make them worth taking, or make them so cheap as to make them auto-includes with limited purpose.

A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.

 Billagio wrote:
So the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut isnt likely to get much worse.....right? I really like the model and want to get one but the rational side of me is saying to wait for the codex. But since its pretty meh/bad right now, even if it doesnt change at all it still would be nice to have one.

I actually went on to ebay and picked up some unpainted pre-assembled one of each to hedge my bets against them getting better. Both were bought for less than retail so i'm happy either way.

I own 4 Gorkanauts and 2 Morkanauts. I've only had the chance to use a Gorkanaut once in a game last year. I was impressed.
With the stupid rule of 3 I plan to stick 3 in a list. More is always better than less. Morkanauts don't do it for me they have less attacks and the KFF doesn't makeup for that.

I have a list in mind 3 Gorkanauts and loads of Boys. Should be a face wrecking machine.

Assuming all of the involved models would become viable, Nauts would be a good match with battlewagons, since your opponent would have to handle multiple T8 threats at once, and the nauts aren't that much slower than wagons.

 Blackie wrote:
A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.

Sounds about right. PKs need some serious changes, D3 damage isn't cutting it. I think a number of our weapons options went up in price for no reason. Last edition Big Shootas AND Rokkitz were 5pts each and nobody thought that was OP, now Big Shootas are 6pts (nobody takes them unless required) and Rokkitz are 12pts (Nobody takes them except for Tankbustas and even then....meh) why? Why would they drastically increase the cost for our ranged options while at the same time nerfing our tried and true PowerKlaw? As it stands I don't take any of the above mentioned weapons, at most I take the relic Big Choppa on a warboss ONLY because it gives him mortal wound damage and saves me points on anything else practically. For big Shootas and Rokkitz....I regularly field 2 Big Shootas...on Ghaz.....that is it, for Rokkitz I don't field any. I miss the days where we would cram as many rokkitz into things as we could on the off chance they managed to hit something and do something.

 Blackie wrote:
A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.

Man, big choppas used to be trash when they were 5 points. For a 2 point increase, having flat -1 armor and 2 damage is huge.

That said, power swords went down to 3 points when they used to be 15.

Has anyone tried a true Dread Mob list? An by that I mean a full 9 Deff Dreads in a list with Big Mek/KFF support?
It seems most lists have 1-3 Deff Dreads and then several Kans and then rely more on boyz/grots.

Has anyone tried a list with 9 Deff Dreads, Big Meks, and Banner Nobs, for maximum effect?

2jollyrogers wrote:
Has anyone tried a true Dread Mob list? An by that I mean a full 9 Deff Dreads in a list with Big Mek/KFF support?
It seems most lists have 1-3 Deff Dreads and then several Kans and then rely more on boyz/grots.

Has anyone tried a list with 9 Deff Dreads, Ghaz, Big Meks, Banner Nob, and Weirdboy for maximum effect?

My Dread Mob list is 9 kanz (3 big shootas, 3 rokkits, 3 KMBs), 3 dreads (2 with all klaws, 1 with scorchas), 3 KMKs, Gorkanaut, Morkanaut with KFF, 2 Big Meks w/ KFFs. Basically the two meks will ensure everything has a 5+ all the time when working with the morkanaut, as well as keep things repaired.

The Kanz are here for fodder- when they're getting shot at, my nauts aren't getting shot at. Every once in a while a rokkit will hit and shave some wounds off of something. If they get into close combat they can take out something flimsy since they only hit on a 5+. The dreads are... meh. The skorchas do pretty good work for stuff on levels my walkers can't get to. The other two dreads are nothing impressive. Six klaw attacks are surprisingly underwhelming at times, and that's [i]if/i] they get into combat.

The stars are the KMKs and the nauts. This thread has gone over time and time again why KMKs are great, so I'll skip that. The nauts are fantastic in shooting (by ork standards). Early off you can risk firing the kustom mega weapons from the morkanaut, and since they can move and shoot heavy weapons you'll get into position. They'll also wreck whatever you get them into combat with.

The biggest issue with this list, though, is that the kanz and dreads have horrible firepower, and are extremely slow. For this list to actually be good, they need to be both faster and have more dakka. Still cool as hell looking.

2jollyrogers wrote:
Has anyone tried a true Dread Mob list? An by that I mean a full 9 Deff Dreads in a list with Big Mek/KFF support?
It seems most lists have 1-3 Deff Dreads and then several Kans and then rely more on boyz/grots.

Has anyone tried a list with 9 Deff Dreads, Big Meks, and Banner Nobs, for maximum effect?

Without having tried it, that list has less wounds than a list with mix kanz and dreads. Such lists tend to be wiped out by turn 2.

So just from napkin math, you will probably have lost every single dread before reaching combat.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
A 5 points big choppa and a p.klaw that deals D6 damage could be the needed fixes for those weapons IMHO. Big choppas cost 5 points in previous editions and now p.klaws are 50% cheaper that they used to be, so big choppas should definitely be cheaper than 7 points. I don't think they should become deadlier since we already have p.klaws and killsaws as better (and more expensive) close combat weapons. Big choppas should be the cheap but not trash option.

Man, big choppas used to be trash when they were 5 points. For a 2 point increase, having flat -1 armor and 2 damage is huge.

That said, power swords went down to 3 points when they used to be 15.

It isn't huge at all. In previous editions big choppas could kill light vehicles quite easily and wound any infantry model that had a 4+ save. Now they do nothing against armored stuff unless you bring a full unit of dudes with big choppas.

In this edition I'd rather give my nobz a free choppa than a 7 points big choppa. Of course things are different if you want to equip a full unit of nobz but we also have to consider the single nob that leads units of kommandos, boyz, stormboyz or bikes. For those single nobz the big choppa is now trash. Armored stuff has too many wounds and saves to be seriously damaged by a single big choppa. In fact I used to give big choppas to boyz nobz quite often in 7th edition since I played MSU, now I only use big choppas for the cheapest warboss and for a full unit of nobz which is a shame.

I have some wants for the new dex:
1. I want to see an ork drop pod( rok)that could fit more than 10 boyz in it. Even if they had a rule where some died on 1s when they got out like when a vehicle explodes.
2. I want stormboyz to be able to deep strike. Even if they had to take like d3 mortals when they come in.

If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.

Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.

I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.

gungo wrote:
If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.

Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.

I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.

I love how GW killed one of the 4ish good units we have in this edition right now. I used to bring 90 Kommandos in 6 units to my tournaments, now I bring 10 in 2 units and use them for Turn 3 objective grabs at most. Yet again orkz are playing another edition where we can't do anything without target saturation, and it has to be Infantry saturation because we don't have a vehicle worth a damn right now :(

SemperMortis wrote:

gungo wrote:
If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.

Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.

I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.

I love how GW killed one of the 4ish good units we have in this edition right now. I used to bring 90 Kommandos in 6 units to my tournaments, now I bring 10 in 2 units and use them for Turn 3 objective grabs at most. Yet again orkz are playing another edition where we can't do anything without target saturation, and it has to be Infantry saturation because we don't have a vehicle worth a damn right now :(

As painful as that is for us, we have to remember that our units don't function in a vacuum. That was not a rule aimed just at orks, it was a modification to all army lists to stop some of the alpha strike madness that decided a game on turn one. On the same track is power klaws, we can't have ours upgraded without powerfists and all the equivalents upgraded as well.

I'm not saying that we don't need improvements, cause we definitely do, but we will have to wait for the codex for that. Personally I'm all for seeing better units so that we can play either hordes or elite styles of play. Tyranids seemed to balance it pretty well, here's hoping we get similar treatment.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
On the same track is power klaws, we can't have ours upgraded without powerfists and all the equivalents upgraded as well.

Nonsense. There is no reason at all for power klaws to be the same as power fists. All armies with power fists have plenty of range option to destroy vehicles, orks have always relied on PKs for that.

Orks need to be better in some things than other armies. We have been worse at everything for too long.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

gungo wrote:
If the new deepstrike rules are permanent most deepstrike units like that aren’t that great anymore.

Its the reason why kommandos went from decent to almost useless.

I would rather just have a stratagem 1/3 CP that allows you to deep strike an ork (or 2)unit after deployment more then 9in away from an enemy unit. You can call it ork rok or tellyporta.

I love how GW killed one of the 4ish good units we have in this edition right now. I used to bring 90 Kommandos in 6 units to my tournaments, now I bring 10 in 2 units and use them for Turn 3 objective grabs at most. Yet again orkz are playing another edition where we can't do anything without target saturation, and it has to be Infantry saturation because we don't have a vehicle worth a damn right now :(

As painful as that is for us, we have to remember that our units don't function in a vacuum. That was not a rule aimed just at orks, it was a modification to all army lists to stop some of the alpha strike madness that decided a game on turn one. On the same track is power klaws, we can't have ours upgraded without powerfists and all the equivalents upgraded as well.

I'm not saying that we don't need improvements, cause we definitely do, but we will have to wait for the codex for that. Personally I'm all for seeing better units so that we can play either hordes or elite styles of play. Tyranids seemed to balance it pretty well, here's hoping we get similar treatment.

True, but deep striking first turn ASSAULT units weren't the ones breaking the game, it was Alpha Strike SHOOTING deep strikers that was killing it, and still is for that matter. Now they shoot everything turn 1 from range and then turn 2 they deep strike and shoot the remainder.

Alpha strike assault was just about the ONLY way to make orkz competitive and by nerfing it across the board they killed one of the few good units we had left. The Codex is going to have to fix a lot of massive problems and that FAQ just added to the list.

I wonder if we might get something a little like the Tyranids treatment with similar weapons at different scales having different prices and stats (scything talons, monstrous scything talons, massive scything talons, etc.). Maybe we'll have a nob powerklaw that does d3 and a boss klaw or kustom klaw that does a flat 3.

I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models. It wouldn't fix everything though. At 0 points a Killkannon on a battlewagon would still be disappointingly un-killy and a KMK on a Morkanaut would still be a joke.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models.

I sent a detailed plea to GW on this one about 6 months ago...being respectful and courteous as always. I have no idea if 1 letter would impact their thinking, but I tried anyway.

Pray to Mork.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models.

I sent a detailed plea to GW on this one about 6 months ago...being respectful and courteous as always. I have no idea if 1 letter would impact their thinking, but I tried anyway.

Pray to Mork.

I still haven't written any letters to GW with suggestions for Orks, other than a vague bit of "I hope battlewagons are viable" type of statement in the mostly pleasant letter I sent them along with a few models during that mostly joking campaign that was going on a while back.

Partly I haven't because I always think that the Ork codex must be just around the corner, and it hasn't been yet. The other thing I worry about is that if I put too much thought into fixes then I'll get too invested in those ideas and be disappointed when GW implements something different but equally good (or probably even better). There're lots of ways to fix the Battlewagon, IMO, so I'm trying not to get too fixated on one fix. I just hope they do something.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I think that pricing some ranged weapons based on BS, like has been done with many armies, could go a long way towards fixing some weapons like rokkits and big gunz on BS 5+ models.

I sent a detailed plea to GW on this one about 6 months ago...being respectful and courteous as always. I have no idea if 1 letter would impact their thinking, but I tried anyway.

Pray to Mork.

I still haven't written any letters to GW with suggestions for Orks, other than a vague bit of "I hope battlewagons are viable" type of statement in the mostly pleasant letter I sent them along with a few models during that mostly joking campaign that was going on a while back.

Partly I haven't because I always think that the Ork codex must be just around the corner, and it hasn't been yet. The other thing I worry about is that if I put too much thought into fixes then I'll get too invested in those ideas and be disappointed when GW implements something different but equally good (or probably even better). There're lots of ways to fix the Battlewagon, IMO, so I'm trying not to get too fixated on one fix. I just hope they do something.

Well see, hopefully their comment about our new codex coming next (or after SW) and "wanting it to be competitive" is true. I miss Battlewagon spam, was my favorite playstyle.

On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?

 Billagio wrote:
On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?

I hope they're coming out with a new kit for Big Gunz, and that they're not cutting the unit. Of course they could be dropping the model and keeping the unit, because GW isn't always consistent.

I like Big Gunz from a fluff perspective, so I use Kannons and Lobbas in most of my games. They don't seem to do very much. I think Kannons and maybe Zzap Gunz (which I haven't used yet) could become viable simply through things like stratagems, clan rules and some unit synergies. Lobbas need a decent point drop though, IMO. I'm

I really want to like 'nauts, but I find it hard to - their guns just don't gel together, at all.

Given that the only real use is in melee; you always want to be advancing. If you advance, it knocks out the ability to use heavy/rapid fire weapons, and forces you to hit on 6's with the assault weapons you CAN fire.

...and if you don't advance - you'll be long gone by the time you make it to melee (if ever); the only place where you can do reasonable damage.

Also, the Morkanaut losing 1 cc attack and other misc stats over the Gorkanaut, sucks.

Thinking back to ye olde days of 3rd:

Kannons were more potent weapons than missile launchers. They rolled on the Ordnance table for damage (meaning they were pretty likely to blow stuff up) and their frag shell was S5 instead of S4.

Zzap Gunz autohit, which was pretty cool. When I first read about them I imagined them firing an arc of electricity rather than a beam.

Lobbas we're pretty much the same as they are now.

Of course these guns were more fragile and tended to kill their own crews.

I'm fine with the kannon being pretty much a shorter-ranged missile launchers, but I also wouldn't mind if it regained some of it's punch.

Zzap Gunz I feel are kind of in a weird spot. They are actually not very good against tanks. Rolling high for strength when shooting tanks is actually a detriment, not a benefit most of the time. Rolling high for strength can be really good again models with invulnerable saves, but it's not reliable enough for that. I feel like the mortal wounds should be in addition to the regular damage instead of replacing it. Even so it would still be a worse weapon than a lascannon IMO.

I've noticed that a lot of the time when Ork players complain about our relatively high strength weapons not being very good against tanks people will say something like "[X] isn't supposed to be an anti-tank weapon it's an anti-MEQ weapon." Only they say that about every single one of our high-strength weapons.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?

I hope they're coming out with a new kit for Big Gunz, and that they're not cutting the unit. Of course they could be dropping the model and keeping the unit, because GW isn't always consistent.

I like Big Gunz from a fluff perspective, so I use Kannons and Lobbas in most of my games. They don't seem to do very much. I think Kannons and maybe Zzap Gunz (which I haven't used yet) could become viable simply through things like stratagems, clan rules and some unit synergies. Lobbas need a decent point drop though, IMO. I'm

I loved my lobbas in 7th, as they were the orks only snipers. It was really odd that such a random weapon would be called a sniper, but hey, orks...what can you do. I'd love to target HQ/bodyguard units, with the small blast...sometimes you'd get a hit on all of them.

Nowadays, with HQs untargetable, that's out, and the removal of blast makrers makes getting more than one hit rare. Still dirt-cheap, though, and I'd gladly pay a hefty point increase if they could actually get a decent number of high-damage hits.

Orks are all about the Dakka, and I feel like they need more artillery options like big guns to reflect that. Here's hoping GW is cooking some up for the new codex

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
On another note, I noticed they got rid of the old big guns models on the GW Webstore, along with various old metal AM regiments (including Steel Legion). I wonder if it has anything to do with the Armageddon article in WD and our upcoming codex?

I hope they're coming out with a new kit for Big Gunz, and that they're not cutting the unit. Of course they could be dropping the model and keeping the unit, because GW isn't always consistent.

I like Big Gunz from a fluff perspective, so I use Kannons and Lobbas in most of my games. They don't seem to do very much. I think Kannons and maybe Zzap Gunz (which I haven't used yet) could become viable simply through things like stratagems, clan rules and some unit synergies. Lobbas need a decent point drop though, IMO. I'm

I loved my lobbas in 7th, as they were the orks only snipers. It was really odd that such a random weapon would be called a sniper, but hey, orks...what can you do. I'd love to target HQ/bodyguard units, with the small blast...sometimes you'd get a hit on all of them.

Nowadays, with HQs untargetable, that's out, and the removal of blast makrers makes getting more than one hit rare. Still dirt-cheap, though, and I'd gladly pay a hefty point increase if they could actually get a decent number of high-damage hits.

While I love lobbas, you really have to face the reality that they are currently nothing but big shootas with better range and therefore not even remotely worth their points.

Lobbas in 7th being able to snipe was a freak accident caused by 7th terrible rules. However, their intended role has always been blowing up light infantry like guardsmen - they really need an AP value to return to their role under the current rules

fe40k wrote:
I really want to like 'nauts, but I find it hard to - their guns just don't gel together, at all.

Given that the only real use is in melee; you always want to be advancing. If you advance, it knocks out the ability to use heavy/rapid fire weapons, and forces you to hit on 6's with the assault weapons you CAN fire.

...and if you don't advance - you'll be long gone by the time you make it to melee (if ever); the only place where you can do reasonable damage.

Also, the Morkanaut losing 1 cc attack and other misc stats over the Gorkanaut, sucks.

I get what you're saying- and I definitely think they're underpowered -but I think the key to making the guns work is the "Big and Stompy" rule. I advance my Gorkanaut forward like you said, trying to get into melee as soon as possible. But once I'm in, every turn after that I can step back, shoot, and charge in again. Your BS doesn't degrade (not that it could go much lower....) so even when he's hanging on with just a couple of wounds left, he's still dakkaing like the day he came off the assembly line.


I think the issue with the 'nauts is that GW really thought vehicles would be super durable this edition. They expected a Gorkanaut to survive 3 or 4 rounds of sustained fire, wading through battle, dealing INSANE damage in close combat. But that's not the way it played out, and they get taken off the board turn 1 or 2, and do nothing.