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 DaisyWondercow wrote:


I think the issue with the 'nauts is that GW really thought vehicles would be super durable this edition. They expected a Gorkanaut to survive 3 or 4 rounds of sustained fire, wading through battle, dealing INSANE damage in close combat. But that's not the way it played out, and they get taken off the board turn 1 or 2, and do nothing.

Agreed, on paper they look durable. But I just watched a batrep on miniwargaming where it (morkanaut with KFF) basically got killed in a turn of shooting from 3 kitted out GSC leman russes (think it was 2 LRBTs and a demolisher, all 3 had lascannon and 1 had plasma sponsons). Granted its a lot of firepower to absorb and it limped ahead with 5ish wounds left, but still it was 1 turn of shooting from 3 units.

Still, rule of cool... and it looked damn imposing and cool walking across the field

 Billagio wrote:


Agreed, on paper they look durable. But I just watched a batrep on miniwargaming where it (morkanaut with KFF) basically got killed in a turn of shooting from 3 kitted out GSC leman russes (think it was 2 LRBTs and a demolisher, all 3 had lascannon and 1 had plasma sponsons). Granted its a lot of firepower to absorb and it limped ahead with 5ish wounds left, but still it was 1 turn of shooting from 3 units.

Still, rule of cool... and it looked damn imposing and cool walking across the field

Yeah, when I've played guard it has meant that my Gork dies turn 1. However! That also means that my two trukks of tankbustas actually survive turn 1 and could savagely retaliate. Still, losing a model you've slaved away on before it can do anything at all feels really bad. Mine is a snakebite gorkanaut, converted from a mawkrusha- I'm super proud of it, but he just doesn't stay alive.

Having 3 AM tanks that kill a naut in a turn is acceptable, the big walkers used to be 5 HP with the chance of being immobilized or lose their weapons. AP2 weapons could even instant kill them with a single lucky shot.

Being durable is not enough since our armored stuff is only pure transports or close combat units with poor shooting. I'd like less resilient walkers and vehicles but way cheaper than now.

Otherwise they need to double their damage output at least. In the case of transports they need to be cheaper anyway, no matter what.

I could agree with that. I think it needs a hefty (50-100?) points drop. We are paying way too much for durability, when honestly its not even that durable.


This edition it seems like less durable transports (like trukks) are much more survivable than in the past, but more durable things like nauts or BWs arnt as survivable on average

That's interesting. I'm not at all a fan of MWG. Still 3 Russ to kill a Naut a turn seems reasonable to me. With out watching the battle report I imagine the Ork play must have spent time shooting and not running. I can also imagine the other player trying to sit way back from the Orks.

What dont you like about MWG? Their batreps seem to be pretty enjoyable if you arnt looking for super competitive stuff, for me atleast

If I remember correctly it did run but there was a lot of terrain so it didnt get shot till turn 3 or so due to LOS. The russes were essentially on the back board edge. Most of the rest of the Ork army was dealing with infiltrating genestealers.


On a side note, im going crazy not seeing any rumors. I keep checking the News and Rumors section and nada, not even anything about SW either. its driving me insane!

 Billagio wrote:
What dont you like about MWG? Their batreps seem to be pretty enjoyable if you arnt looking for super competitive stuff, for me atleast

If I remember correctly it did run but there was a lot of terrain so it didnt get shot till turn 3 or so due to LOS. The russes were essentially on the back board edge. Most of the rest of the Ork army was dealing with infiltrating genestealers.


On a side note, im going crazy not seeing any rumors. I keep checking the News and Rumors section and nada, not even anything about SW either. its driving me insane!

I just don't care for them. They don't seem like people I would want to game with. I don't like their humor very much it's no big deal really. I don't bother with very may youtube battle reports any more I just don't really enjoy them as much any more. I don't mean to sound rude about them, they just aren't people I see as like minded to myself. if that makes any sense.

Meh, well get rumors soon enough. there's a GW thing in Germany coming up... unless it's already happened. I'd be looking at any large events where GW is going to be or is hosting for rumor drop dates.

I'm hoping that buggies and trukks are cheap but fragile. Hordes of Ork light vehicles blowing up left and right but the Ork player just laughing because he has a bunch more is very appealing to me.

Some Ork vehicles seem like they should be tough, though. I like how in the stories they will blow pieces off of battlewagons and stompas and they just keep coming. I like the Ramshackle rule in this regard, andI wish all Ork vehicles had it. I also like that Ork vehicles have relatively high wounds and poor armor saves. It makes them more resistant to high-ap anti-tank weapons like lascannon but more vulnerable to being battered apart by mid-strength, high-volume weapons like autocannons. This feels very thematic to me.

That said I think they overvalued the extra wounds of vehicles like the battlewagon and stompa. If I did the math right the battlewagon only needs about 1.3 more lascannon hits to bring down than a rhino does. Of course that can be hard to balance when taking into account a KFF makes it as durable against lascannons as a Land Raider. Of course, a KFF has it's own costs and doesn't protect against melee.

Sometimes things are also just disappointing no matter how cheap the are, like the Killkannon, Dethkannon and the Leman Russ Vanquisher for the Imperial Guard.

 Blackie wrote:
Having 3 AM tanks that kill a naut in a turn is acceptable, the big walkers used to be 5 HP with the chance of being immobilized or lose their weapons. AP2 weapons could even instant kill them with a single lucky shot.

Being durable is not enough since our armored stuff is only pure transports or close combat units with poor shooting. I'd like less resilient walkers and vehicles but way cheaper than now.

Otherwise they need to double their damage output at least. In the case of transports they need to be cheaper anyway, no matter what.

Double is an understatement. Against tactical Marines in the open, a Morkanaut averages 1 hit from its KMK which means about a 5/6th chance to kill a single Marine, the little gun will most likely miss, the 2 rokkitz have about a 50% chance of hitting 1 time a turn which no longer means dead marine but gives you about a 33% chance to kill 1 more marine, and the 2 Dual Big shoots = 12 shots, 4 hits and 3 wounds meaning 1 dead Marine. So a 300ish pt unit can kill 2-3 Marines a turn in the shooting phase.....that is about 40pts of Dead Marines at most from a 320pt unit.....theoretically a unit should be able to kill about 1/3rd its points cost a turn (my opinion) and that means the Mork should be killing 100pts a turn or thereabouts, or equivalent to 8ish Marines, not 2-3.

Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:I'm hoping that buggies and trukks are cheap but fragile. Hordes of Ork light vehicles blowing up left and right but the Ork player just laughing because he has a bunch more is very appealing to me.

Some Ork vehicles seem like they should be tough, though. I like how in the stories they will blow pieces off of battlewagons and stompas and they just keep coming. I like the Ramshackle rule in this regard, andI wish all Ork vehicles had it. I also like that Ork vehicles have relatively high wounds and poor armor saves. It makes them more resistant to high-ap anti-tank weapons like lascannon but more vulnerable to being battered apart by mid-strength, high-volume weapons like autocannons. This feels very thematic to me.

That said I think they overvalued the extra wounds of vehicles like the battlewagon and stompa. If I did the math right the battlewagon only needs about 1.3 more lascannon hits to bring down than a rhino does. Of course that can be hard to balance when taking into account a KFF makes it as durable against lascannons as a Land Raider. Of course, a KFF has it's own costs and doesn't protect against melee.

Sometimes things are also just disappointing no matter how cheap the are, like the Killkannon, Dethkannon and the Leman Russ Vanquisher for the Imperial Guard.

I agree - I think a ramshackle horde of vehicles >>> a fewer, tougher vehicles; this is Orks we're talking about. Individually, Orks should have a lower quality than other factions units in the same role - but, there should just be a LOT more of them.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Having 3 AM tanks that kill a naut in a turn is acceptable, the big walkers used to be 5 HP with the chance of being immobilized or lose their weapons. AP2 weapons could even instant kill them with a single lucky shot.

Being durable is not enough since our armored stuff is only pure transports or close combat units with poor shooting. I'd like less resilient walkers and vehicles but way cheaper than now.

Otherwise they need to double their damage output at least. In the case of transports they need to be cheaper anyway, no matter what.

Double is an understatement. Against tactical Marines in the open, a Morkanaut averages 1 hit from its KMK which means about a 5/6th chance to kill a single Marine, the little gun will most likely miss, the 2 rokkitz have about a 50% chance of hitting 1 time a turn which no longer means dead marine but gives you about a 33% chance to kill 1 more marine, and the 2 Dual Big shoots = 12 shots, 4 hits and 3 wounds meaning 1 dead Marine. So a 300ish pt unit can kill 2-3 Marines a turn in the shooting phase.....that is about 40pts of Dead Marines at most from a 320pt unit.....theoretically a unit should be able to kill about 1/3rd its points cost a turn (my opinion) and that means the Mork should be killing 100pts a turn or thereabouts, or equivalent to 8ish Marines, not 2-3.

This.

Let's pretend our opponents are actually competent, and know that 'naut shooting is just for that - naught. The first/second rounds of the game, their shooting should be prioritizing other targets (tankbustas, etc); as the 'naughts don't do anything if they're not in melee range of their opponent.

I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.

Anvildude wrote:
I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.

On that note I wish they had the old Psycho-Dakka-Blasta rules for the stompa where you roll 2D6 for your shots and keep going until you get doubles, then its done for the rest of the game

 Billagio wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.

On that note I wish they had the old Psycho-Dakka-Blasta rules for the stompa where you roll 2D6 for your shots and keep going until you get doubles, then its done for the rest of the game

Ironically, that was one of the reasons I didn't buy a Stompa originally. If I am paying $110 for a Stompa and 750ish (7th edition) points (900+ Now) for a Giant walker it better be spewing out a FETH LOAD of bullets every turn until the end of the game OR! if the rule exists where it doesn't get to shoot for the rest of the game if it does something like that then it better be putting out about 3x as many bullets then it currently does. 2D6 shots = 7 on average and at BS2 that means 2 hits. Sorry if I am not impressed by 2 hits a turn at S7. In 8th edition that means on average we are going to get 1 Dead Marine a turn. It's even worse then the Morkanaut and that is saying something.

I think this was back in 5th or 6th (whenever the model came out), so it was a good deal cheaper, I think you could get a good loadout for about 600 points (even better with the Kustom Stompa rules). Usually you could get a lot of shots off, I liked the extra possibility for more shots, though the stompa as a whole was better so back then so id prefer the guaranteed shots on the current stompa like we have now, if that makes sense

IMO the old Raid on Kastorel-Novem book showed that Forge World, while not necessarily being the best at writing rules, at least understood what being an ork player was all about.

You want more gunz? That's cool, here's some rules for more gunz. You want even MOAR GUNZ? Okay, here's some rules for sticking gunz on every available hard point. What's that, you want ALL OF THE GUNZ!? Tell you what, model as many gunz on as you want, and here are rules for generating a random number of shots and rokkits every turn.

Was that the book that had the Kustom Stompa rules? Because we need more of that.

Also does anyone else really hate the new codex layout? I hate having to jump to the end of the codex to get the points values and then jumping back and forth to figure out each piece of included wargear a model has and the associated points. I miss having points values and possible wargear listed on the unit entry and with starting wargear included in the model/unit cost. It basically makes having battlescribe a necessity. I dont understand why the points values for a LRBT doesnt include a battle cannon when it says that the model comes with a battle cannon

/rant

Man, I'd love to have a kustom stompa builder table again, because the kustom stompa in the IA book somehow managed to be a worse unit than the codex stompa, which is impressive in a way.

And yes, I LOATHE the layout of the new codexes, though I understand why they do it - so that they can update points costs via chapter approved, without having to redo the entire codex.

Yep, Kastorel-Novem (IA:8, IIRC) had the big set of kustom stompa rules.

I would dearly love to get that back. I actually would be very pleased if they came out with a good set of orky Vehicle Design Rules, even if they were Open Play only.

I also definitely wouldn't mind if instead of getting models our codex was mostly kitbashing articles that allowed us to keep everything that doesn't have a model and added a bunch more stuff. Wreckin' Balls and Grabbin' Klawz on buggies instead of guns? Why not? (New models would be cool too.)

ETA: since the rules in Kastorel-Novem are no longer valid the price on used copies has come way down, in case anyone was interested in picking a copy up for some orkspiration.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


And yes, I LOATHE the layout of the new codexes, though I understand why they do it - so that they can update points costs via chapter approved, without having to redo the entire codex.

See I get that, but they could atleast include the basic wargear that the unit comes with in the cost and still do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Yep, Kastorel-Novem (IA:8, IIRC) had the big set of kustom stompa rules.

I would dearly love to get that back. I actually would be very pleased if they came out with a good set of orky Vehicle Design Rules, even if they were Open Play only.

I also definitely wouldn't mind if instead of getting models our codex was mostly kitbashing articles that allowed us to keep everything that doesn't have a model and added a bunch more stuff. Wreckin' Balls and Grabbin' Klawz on buggies instead of guns? Why not? (New models would be cool too.)

ETA: since the rules in Kastorel-Novem are no longer valid the price on used copies has come way down, in case anyone was interested in picking a copy up for some orkspiration.

Id be down to get it back too. Honestly if they had reasonably priced kustom rules for most of the vehicle units id be fine with no new models

Honestly, if they just said, "Look, as long as it's modelled on the miniature, you can pay the points for the wargear for anything- yes, that means you can have a Big Mek using a Wrekkin' Ball as his melee weapon- as long as you pay the points for it and have it modelled."

'cause honestly, there's not many ways you could 'break' that. Like, even if you slapped 10 Deffkannons on a Battlewagon, it's still just a battlewagon. And now you've got half your army cost in a single model.

Anvildude wrote:
Honestly, if they just said, "Look, as long as it's modelled on the miniature, you can pay the points for the wargear for anything- yes, that means you can have a Big Mek using a Wrekkin' Ball as his melee weapon- as long as you pay the points for it and have it modelled."

'cause honestly, there's not many ways you could 'break' that. Like, even if you slapped 10 Deffkannons on a Battlewagon, it's still just a battlewagon. And now you've got half your army cost in a single model.

They would need to actually cost everything...I could definitely see a trukk with an infinite number of deffguns...

I would absolutely love just a set of size-based profiles, and the ability to just build it however you want, and equip it with whatever you want, provided you pay the appropriate points-cost for all the wargear...that would be brilliant!

orks don't have STC's...ork vehicles are generally based on the random whims of the mek(s) building them at the time...you could very well have it powered by a squig in a hamster-wheel, instead of an engine, for example...

 JimOnMars wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
Honestly, if they just said, "Look, as long as it's modelled on the miniature, you can pay the points for the wargear for anything- yes, that means you can have a Big Mek using a Wrekkin' Ball as his melee weapon- as long as you pay the points for it and have it modelled."

'cause honestly, there's not many ways you could 'break' that. Like, even if you slapped 10 Deffkannons on a Battlewagon, it's still just a battlewagon. And now you've got half your army cost in a single model.

They would need to actually cost everything...I could definitely see a trukk with an infinite number of deffguns...

You know, I actually do wish Deffguns and Burnas had a cost. The whole free burnas n Kommandoz thing always felt weird to me (not that I think Kommandoz are overpowered by any means). More importantly, including the cost of Deffguns and Burnas in the price of Burna Boyz and Lootas is one of the things making Spanner Boyz useless. If Spanner Boyz had a base cost of 6 points and didn't have to buy the burna/deffgun then they could be used as cheap ablative wounds for the unit. Also, if they adjusted some of the special weapons options it could lead to some interesting stuff. Like, if they made Killsawz ~10 points for Spanner Boyz, and they had a base cost of 6 points, then it might be interesting to hide three killsawz inside a unit of Burna Boyz.

I hope they get rid of the Pyromaniacs rule. It seems pretty useless, and hasn't come into effect in the games I've played. I liked ye olde rule where Burnas were more effective against tanks, seeing as they are cutting torches. Maybe replace Pyromaniacs with a rule giving Burna Boyz a re-roll to wound against vehicles, or giving them extra AP on wound rolls of 6 like Genestealers.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
I think it'd be fun to have a Psycho-Dakka-Blaster artillery piece. Like an oversized Gattling Gun. You don't get to choose when it fires, but when it does it just spews bullets at everything- sort of like an Orky Dakka-focused Deathstrike launcher.

On that note I wish they had the old Psycho-Dakka-Blasta rules for the stompa where you roll 2D6 for your shots and keep going until you get doubles, then its done for the rest of the game

Ironically, that was one of the reasons I didn't buy a Stompa originally. If I am paying $110 for a Stompa and 750ish (7th edition) points (900+ Now) for a Giant walker it better be spewing out a FETH LOAD of bullets every turn until the end of the game OR! if the rule exists where it doesn't get to shoot for the rest of the game if it does something like that then it better be putting out about 3x as many bullets then it currently does. 2D6 shots = 7 on average and at BS2 that means 2 hits. Sorry if I am not impressed by 2 hits a turn at S7. In 8th edition that means on average we are going to get 1 Dead Marine a turn. It's even worse then the Morkanaut and that is saying something.

Definitely not a selling point for a stompa even back then. It was about the Big Kannon with the huge blast marker and the suppa rokits. before that stupid random gun. The stats on it were good but I have no interest in paying for something that just stops working. (I own 5 Stompas because drain bamage) I much preferred getting them stuck into combat to chop things up. In this edition they just don't have enough attacks for their points. I'd like to try it out but I can't see what to do with it a Morkanaut is better for the number of attacks. I guess the stompa was limited to 4 because of the 6 damage weapon, But that's still fairly meaningless if it rolls into infantry where that's only at most 4 infantry killed. I'm super sick of mechanics that let me roll lots of hit dice for a single attack. rolling 2 dice for each attack would probably be less annoying and have the same number of hits.
I think the stompa just needs more gunz on it. more big shootas more sorchas more rokits. With the changes to blast weapons and the limitation on the number of suppa rokits that can be used in a single shooting phase, or is it turn. Unless it gets a BS buff in the codex. What else is it? a transport? that's a lot of points to transport 20 Models anywhere.

On that proposed artillery, the pay off would have to be huge for me to want to use one. Don't take that the wrong way, I like the bubble chukka a lot I have 4 of them. But they on't stop working because of random rolls on my end.

The main reason whay Pyromaniacs hasn't done anything in my games is because they yet have to kill anything at all...

 Jidmah wrote:
The main reason whay Pyromaniacs hasn't done anything in my games is because they yet have to kill anything at all...

I forgot it was a burna boy special rule. It's never really been necessary in my games. usually they are near a bubble. or are all killed before they do anything. But I'm kinda reckless with them.

Anvildude wrote:



You know, I actually do wish Deffguns and Burnas had a cost. The whole free burnas n Kommandoz thing always felt weird to me (not that I think Kommandoz are overpowered by any means). More importantly, including the cost of Deffguns and Burnas in the price of Burna Boyz and Lootas is one of the things making Spanner Boyz useless. If Spanner Boyz had a base cost of 6 points and didn't have to buy the burna/deffgun then they could be used as cheap ablative wounds for the unit. Also, if they adjusted some of the special weapons options it could lead to some interesting stuff. Like, if they made Killsawz ~10 points for Spanner Boyz, and they had a base cost of 6 points, then it might be interesting to hide three killsawz inside a unit of Burna Boyz.

I totally agree with this. The boyz with the toyz should be priced as regular boyz, then the equipment on top. It would make mixing and matching a viable alternative, and easy and balanced. No one takes heavy weapon boyz in a boyz mob because it's useless at the moment. I would however love to take a couple of burna boyz in with the mob, even at the current stats of the burna. Kommandos with a couple of Deffguns would make them much more useful for camping objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What in the name of Mork is a Spanner supposed to do anyway? As part of a unit, they are either nowhere near a vehicle, or they are in the vehicle and they can't do anything.

Rumors thread is up, though theyre pretty vague right now and I dont know how credible they are. Anyways, should be interesting to keep track of:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/758732.page

Shrapnelbait wrote:

What in the name of Mork is a Spanner supposed to do anyway? As part of a unit, they are either nowhere near a vehicle, or they are in the vehicle and they can't do anything.

That's a tough one right now. redundancy seems like a much better choice most of the time. and yet. I have 3 with kill saws and 6 with KMB's.
The latter are meant to be part of a loota mob camping out with my Mek guns where the spanners can fix a sing wound a turn and still, if needed shoot.
I mostly have these for games with power levels with friends.

I really wish mobs, probably all mobs, could ad grots to their units maybe a 1 for 1 or slightly less as ablative wounds. with bespoke rules each mob type could have individual limitations and interactions.
oh well.

 Jidmah wrote:
The main reason whay Pyromaniacs hasn't done anything in my games is because they yet have to kill anything at all...

To put that into perspective, a unit of 15 Burnas have 30 hits on average at S4, that is 15 wounds against T4 and against 3+ saves that is 5 Dead Marines, of course you have to get them into 9 inch range...good luck, and they have to survive for that long, also good luck. Basically they suck at everything.