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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Nora wrote:
Which weekend will they release the codex do you believe? Will we have pre-orders already in September?

Only things we know october and speed freek game first. Thus earliest preorder would be 6th if speed freek comes preorder september. Seems odds are i can#t take codex to tournament in october

Source? I don't remember reading anywhere that Speed Freeks will come before the codex?

https://spikeybits.com/2018/08/live-reveals-from-games-workshops-2018-preview.html

Codex orks next
Orktober
Before orks (codex?) speed freaks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nuck Fewton wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
This might not be the right spot, but a question about WYSIWYG and ork klans -- is a particular paint scheme mandated for each Klan? I'm just getting started, but my ork army isn't going to be painted in any of the canon colors (the army's scheme is purple with white/yellow accents, but the boyz for instance are all in orange prison clothes). Am I stuck with freebootaz in a WYSIWYG tournament?

is WYSIWYG even a thing anymore?

Technically not even requirement to have any real models. RAW you could use the cheap army men or even rocks for models.

But chapter trait/colour scheme has never been WYSIWYG. Now I think GW tried it in the level if you have blood angel colour scheme they must use blood angels but even they didn't prevent using blood angels with custom paint job.

tneva82 wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2018/08/live-reveals-from-games-workshops-2018-preview.html

Codex orks next
Orktober
Before orks (codex?) speed freaks

Ah Spikeybits.

I don't think RB was at the event so I'd take the vague phrase "Before orks (codex?) speed freaks" with a big lump of salt. Something could've got lost in translation or misheard.

This is interesting; "Timeline – show stuff a month before it comes out. If you haven’t seen it (model, book, etc) then it’s more than a month away."

Well we saw previews of Speed Freeks about a week or 2 ago? So pre-orders up the Monday 24th for release 1st Oct?

DDD rule about 5.555% more hits.

Lootas now average 2.166667 shots.

When Lootas roll 3 shots each they have a 50% chance of rolling the six they need to shoot one more time.

Anything rolling with an Assault/Heavy 3 weapon gets a 50% chance of rolling another shot.

Tankbustas vs. vehicles -> 1 Rokkit/3(chance to hit) = 33% chance to hit + 22% chance to hit with a reroll = 55% Hit chance. Half those are 6's. So .27 more rokkitz that also get to reroll misses leading to another 15.27% chance of a hit. I think this means each tankbuster has almost a 71% chance to actually hit a vehicle.

 Rismonite wrote:
DDD rule about 5.555% more hits.

Lootas now average 2.166667 shots.

When Lootas roll 3 shots each they have a 50% chance of rolling the six they need to shoot one more time.

Anything rolling with an Assault/Heavy 3 weapon gets a 50% chance of rolling another shot.

Tankbustas vs. vehicles -> 1 Rokkit/3(chance to hit) = 33% chance to hit + 22% chance to hit with a reroll = 55% Hit chance. Half those are 6's. So .27 more rokkitz that also get to reroll misses leading to another 15.27% chance of a hit. I think this means each tankbuster has almost a 71% chance to actually hit a vehicle.

Whats the math for Bad moons Lootas with DDD?

mhalko1 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
DDD rule about 5.555% more hits.

Lootas now average 2.166667 shots.

When Lootas roll 3 shots each they have a 50% chance of rolling the six they need to shoot one more time.

Anything rolling with an Assault/Heavy 3 weapon gets a 50% chance of rolling another shot.

Tankbustas vs. vehicles -> 1 Rokkit/3(chance to hit) = 33% chance to hit + 22% chance to hit with a reroll = 55% Hit chance. Half those are 6's. So .27 more rokkitz that also get to reroll misses leading to another 15.27% chance of a hit. I think this means each tankbuster has almost a 71% chance to actually hit a vehicle.

Whats the math for Bad moons Lootas with DDD?

Complicated lol

18 shots would give three 1's, so three rerolls, likely one of those should hit, and it has a 50% chance of being a six.
So, the Bad Moons clan trait yields a 6 to hit for DDD at 36 shots.

its actually 68,5%
but yeah thats basically tankbusters hitting on 3's ^^

badmoons dont matter since they reroll everything against vehicle as default... would improve chances of hitting inf thought

Small footnote: DDD works on overwatch as well so hey we might even get an extra hit out of it there as well which could be nice.

I don't think DDD is a super amazing rule, but it's nice to have. We've all had those games where just one more shot could have made the difference. On paper it's not going to shatter the meta, but there will be those moments where it really does shine and strip that last wound of something important or just barely manage to shoot them off of an objective.

Also: I sure do hope tankbustas get their tank hunting extended to monsters as well.

mhalko1 wrote:


Whats the math for Bad moons Lootas with DDD?

its the same for all BadMoons units

normal orks DDD extra hits = 5,5%
BadMoon orks DDD extra hits = 7,5%

it doesnt matter how many shots you firing its a flat 7,5% (5,5%) extra hits

So...obviously too early to tell, but I need help deciding on what to paint next in my queue based on the codex leaks/announcements so far.

Assuming I'm playing Bad Moons/Freebooterz, what units should I be prioritizing (besides boyz)?

I want to say KMK's, and maybe a dakkajet? Grots for some meatshieldy goodness? What do you guys think are the standout units post-codex?

RedNoak wrote:

normal orks DDD extra hits = 5,5%
BadMoon orks DDD extra hits = 7,5%

I keep seeing "it's 16.7% extra hits"... "No, it's only ~5.5% extra hits".

If you would have hit 100 times without DDD, you will hit approximately 116.7 times with DDD. That surely looks like a 16.7% increase in hits to me.

If you SHOOT 100 times, DDD will generate ~16.7 extra attacks. That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.

Yes, with BS5+ the number of extra hits is ~5.5% of the number of *shots*, but that's comparing apples and oranges (or shots and hits in this case).

IMHO to keep quoting 5.5% is misleading. Yes, 16.7% more than 6 wounds is a whopping 1 extra wound, but 1 extra wound in 6 is way better than the 1 extra wound in 18 that 5.5% implies.

</soapbox>

Dude, you're language is backwards in my book.

Its 16% extra shots, and 5% extra hits.

Hit's occur after you roll a successful hit.

That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.

Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.

So I did some quick mathhammer on the attack to hit conversion rate with DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA , I did it for BS3+-BS6+, covering re-rolls of ones and re-rolling failures. This chart doesn't cover units with Ammo Runts, they generate finite re-rolls so you have to consider the probability of using that re-roll. I had a python script I was working on to deal with it but never got around to finishing, so the imminent codex might be motivation.

The order of the values is, unmodified, with DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA , and with re-rolls of 1(badrukk aura, rumoured badmoonz) or with re-rolls of all failures (tankbustas).
BS3: 0.667, 0.778, 0.907, 1.037
BS4: 0.500, 0.583, 0.681, 0.875
BS5: 0.333, 0.389, 0.454, 0.648
BS6: 0.167, 0.194, 0.227, 0.356

To clarify that result with an attack to hit conversion rate greater then 1 checks out, as you would expect everything to have to have an attacks characteristic of 7/6.

Also I'm seeing people talk about whether it's a 1/6 increase or a 1/18 increase, you need to be careful with what you're talking about because both statements can potentially be correct. DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA gives a flat 1/6 increase to your output, that is your attacks output is scaled by 7/6. If you have BS5+ your attacks to hit conversion rate will have an additional (1/6)*(1/3)= 1/18 output, that is your hit rate of 1/3 is now 1/3+1/18=7/18. Alternatively, your attack to hit conversion rate before is 1/3, and DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA will scale it by 7/6, so you get 7/18. They're the same result, just the way people talk about the change in the results is different.

 hollow one wrote:
Dude, you're language is backwards in my book.

Its 16% extra shots, and 5% extra hits.

Hit's occur after you roll a successful hit.

That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.

Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.

Can we agree that 100 shots @ BS 5+ yields ~33.3 hits? Can we also agree that with DDD, 16.7 of those shots will be 6 resulting in additional attacks?
How about that 116.7 shots at BS 5+ yields ~38.9 hits?

If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that 33.3 * 1.167 = ~38.9?

16% more shots than you had before yields 16% more hits than you had before.

And as far as wounds, lets suppose you're wounding on 4+. 33.3 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~16.7 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~19.5 wounds. 16.7 * 1.167 = ~19.5. 16.7% more wounds with DDD than without DDD.

Suppose it's a tough target and you're wounding on 6+. 33.3 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~5.5 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~6.5 wounds. Again a 16.7% increase (rounding error becomes significant here, but if you carry the precision further that goes away)

Suppose it's a goofy grot or something and your'e wounding on 2+. 33.3 hits wounding on 2+ yields 27.75 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 2+ yields yields 32.4 wounds. 27.75 * 1.167 = ~32.4.

So no matter whether you're talking attacks, hits, or wounds -- it's a straight 16.67% increase in all of them. 16.67% more attacks than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more hits than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more wounds than you had without DDD.

I'm no warhammer expert so I can't tell you what effect that will have on the outcome of a game, and if a 17% increase in firepower is insignificant I'll take your word for it -- but imho the math is clear that it IS an almost 17% increase in firepower (regardless of whether you measure in attacks, hits, or wounds) and not 5%.

Coh Magnussen wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Dude, you're language is backwards in my book.

Its 16% extra shots, and 5% extra hits.

Hit's occur after you roll a successful hit.

That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.

Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.

Can we agree that 100 shots @ BS 5+ yields ~33.3 hits? Can we also agree that with DDD, 16.7 of those shots will be 6 resulting in additional attacks?
How about that 116.7 shots at BS 5+ yields ~38.9 hits?

If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that 33.3 * 1.167 = ~38.9?

16% more shots than you had before yields 16% more hits than you had before.

And as far as wounds, lets suppose you're wounding on 4+. 33.3 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~16.7 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 4+ yields ~19.5 wounds. 16.7 * 1.167 = ~19.5. 16.7% more wounds with DDD than without DDD.

Suppose it's a tough target and you're wounding on 6+. 33.3 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~5.5 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 6+ yields ~6.5 wounds. Again a 16.7% increase (rounding error becomes significant here, but if you carry the precision further that goes away)

Suppose it's a goofy grot or something and your'e wounding on 2+. 33.3 hits wounding on 2+ yields 27.75 wounds. 38.9 hits wounding on 2+ yields yields 32.4 wounds. 27.75 * 1.167 = ~32.4.

So no matter whether you're talking attacks, hits, or wounds -- it's a straight 16.67% increase in all of them. 16.67% more attacks than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more hits than you had without DDD, yielding 16.67% more wounds than you had without DDD.

I'm no warhammer expert so I can't tell you what effect that will have on the outcome of a game, and if a 17% increase in firepower is insignificant I'll take your word for it -- but imho the math is clear that it IS an almost 17% increase in firepower (regardless of whether you measure in attacks, hits, or wounds) and not 5%.

I agree on your math. But see the problem (according to dakkalites) is that every army has at least a -1 to hit, more often -2 or -3 to hit. I don't agree, but that's how it is in every meta it seems.

good gork...would you nerds put your calculators away?...the dice don't care about your mathhammer, jeez!

 ZoBo wrote:
good gork...would you nerds put your calculators away?...the dice don't care about your mathhammer, jeez!

The dice might not care but the Law of Large numbers and Central Limit Theorem do, and Orks are a great physical manifestation of these theorems!

ehh actually, you're right...I can see how orks could present an interesting opportunity for data analysis and such...it may not particularly interest me, or give me any personal enjoyment, because it's just not my "thing"...but really, what right do I have to begrudge others their interest/enjoyment of such things?...I'll shut up and go back to painting, carry on!

 ZoBo wrote:
ehh actually, you're right...I can see how orks could present an interesting opportunity for data analysis and such...it may not particularly interest me, or give me any personal enjoyment, because it's just not my "thing"...but really, what right do I have to begrudge others their interest/enjoyment of such things?...I'll shut up and go back to painting, carry on!

Yuz betta 'ave a lot uv green on dat palette!

 hollow one wrote:
Dude, you're language is backwards in my book.

Its 16% extra shots, and 5% extra hits.

16% extra attacks leads to 16% extra hits. Regardless of BS.

 hollow one wrote:
Dude, you're language is backwards in my book.

Its 16% extra shots, and 5% extra hits.

Hit's occur after you roll a successful hit.

That's why everyone is talking about 5% extra hits. Additionally, it's more meaningful to discuss the extra hits (instead of shots), as that is one step closer to the outcome, and it accounts for ballistic skill.

Finally, you can not discuss the % increase in wounds without knowing the toughness and save of the target, which is why no one is discussing % increase in wounds like in your example.

30 shootas shoot with DDD. 23.333 hits vs 20 hits. That's 16.6666% more hits than before. Divide 23.3333 with 20 if you don't believe it. Sheesh.

On other topic suggestions for what klan trait(except snakebite) would work nicely with stompa? I would like to bring Stompa to apoc game with up to 6k per player(if for nothing else to reduce my model count...) but all needs to be painted. Thus, seeing how big model it is, I can't wait for codex and THEN to paint. I need to take risk of either rumours be false or there being klan specific trait that would work wonderfully with the stompa.

Snakebites would likely be optimal game effect wise(almost 16.67% more wounds) but...snakebite and stompa? Doesn't fit for my fluff head. Snakebites are supposed to be most primitive orks. Not super stompa builders

Goff's would certainly give more oomph in h2h but that doesn't feel like issue ever. Dethskulls would give inv save but 6++ is bit wimpy for this big expensive model. Spare mek with KFF is worth it. Evil sunz would help getting faster but unless rumours are missed I can't advance and shoot most of stompas weapon. Though +2" on turn I charge would still be helpful. Bad moons...Well this one is packing tons of guns so could be worth it. Blood axe(stealth stompa Lol ) would give 2+ save which is as good as kustom force field vs lascannons and better vs any -1 save guns(like helverin guns) or worse trying to wound me. Worse against -4 or better though.

Currently leaning toward evil sunz(as weird as fast stompa feels...bit similar issue to snakebites though not as bad) or bad moons.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Can we agree that 100 shots @ BS 5+ yields ~33.3 hits? Can we also agree that with DDD, 16.7 of those shots will be 6 resulting in additional attacks?
How about that 116.7 shots at BS 5+ yields ~38.9 hits?

If we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that 33.3 * 1.167 = ~38.9?

Alright so it is not the language we are using, it is the anchor that is different.

My version: Of the 100 shots you made, 5% more of them will hit. Clearly elicited by your example as a difference in 5.6 shots (5.6% of 100)
Your version: When landing 33 hits, you will gain 16% more hits.

So long as our language is the same (hits and shots) I think we are clearly on the same page.

tneva82 wrote:
On other topic suggestions for what klan trait(except snakebite) would work nicely with stompa? I would like to bring Stompa to apoc game with up to 6k per player(if for nothing else to reduce my model count...) but all needs to be painted. Thus, seeing how big model it is, I can't wait for codex and THEN to paint. I need to take risk of either rumours be false or there being klan specific trait that would work wonderfully with the stompa.

Snakebites would likely be optimal game effect wise(almost 16.67% more wounds) but...snakebite and stompa? Doesn't fit for my fluff head. Snakebites are supposed to be most primitive orks. Not super stompa builders

Goff's would certainly give more oomph in h2h but that doesn't feel like issue ever. Dethskulls would give inv save but 6++ is bit wimpy for this big expensive model. Spare mek with KFF is worth it. Evil sunz would help getting faster but unless rumours are missed I can't advance and shoot most of stompas weapon. Though +2" on turn I charge would still be helpful. Bad moons...Well this one is packing tons of guns so could be worth it. Blood axe(stealth stompa Lol ) would give 2+ save which is as good as kustom force field vs lascannons and better vs any -1 save guns(like helverin guns) or worse trying to wound me. Worse against -4 or better though.

Currently leaning toward evil sunz(as weird as fast stompa feels...bit similar issue to snakebites though not as bad) or bad moons.

fwiw, I have a stompa already painted as badmoonz, and rerolling 1's to hit on all it's dakka sounds decent enough, so I don't think I'll be repainting it

...that said, I'm also trying to decide on a clan for the gorkanaut I've just finished building...I've never played a 'naut before either, so I don't even have a feel for how it normally runs currently...the rest of my army is very "mixed clans" at the moment though...leaning mostly on goffs, evil sunz and deffskulls...

For gorkanaut thinking evil sunz as less shooting to lose and combos nicely with rumoured tellyport strategem, maybe even 3d6 charge forsame reason. Or dethskulj as due to deep strike kff is less quaranteed thing

tneva82 wrote:
For gorkanaut thinking evil sunz as less shooting to lose and combos nicely with rumoured tellyport strategem, maybe even 3d6 charge forsame reason. Or dethskulj as due to deep strike kff is less quaranteed thing

Yes I was gonna do Evil sunz goraknauts for just that reason. Depends on the stratagems though, if the teleport and 3d6 charge are clan specific or have weird wording it could change things

Coh Magnussen wrote:

RedNoak wrote:

normal orks DDD extra hits = 5,5%
BadMoon orks DDD extra hits = 7,5%

I keep seeing "it's 16.7% extra hits"... "No, it's only ~5.5% extra hits".

If you would have hit 100 times without DDD, you will hit approximately 116.7 times with DDD. That surely looks like a 16.7% increase in hits to me.

If you SHOOT 100 times, DDD will generate ~16.7 extra attacks. That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.

</soapbox>

errr thats not how math works^^

because if you SHOOT 100 times, yes you generate 16,7 more ATTACKS with DDD, but to hit with those extra attacks you will need to divide them by 3 to get your extra hits... and 16,7 : 3 is what again?

RedNoak wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:

RedNoak wrote:

normal orks DDD extra hits = 5,5%
BadMoon orks DDD extra hits = 7,5%

I keep seeing "it's 16.7% extra hits"... "No, it's only ~5.5% extra hits".

If you would have hit 100 times without DDD, you will hit approximately 116.7 times with DDD. That surely looks like a 16.7% increase in hits to me.

If you SHOOT 100 times, DDD will generate ~16.7 extra attacks. That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.

</soapbox>

errr thats not how math works^^

because if you SHOOT 100 times, yes you generate 16,7 more ATTACKS with DDD, but to hit with those extra attacks you will need to divide them by 3 to get your extra hits... and 16,7 : 3 is what again?

Spoiler:

5,5%

Yes that is how math works. Absolute gain vs relative gain.

For the second time, can we stop this idiotic discussion?

 Jidmah wrote:
Yes that is how math works. Absolute gain vs relative gain.

For the second time, can we stop this idiotic discussion?

no it doesnt work that way.
and we can stop this stupid discussion when you stop spreading misinformation...

That's 16.7% more attacks, which should on average yield 16.7% more hits than without DDD.

if someone comes across this post, he is inclined to think DDD gives you 16.7% more hits (edit: as in total). but that is simply not true.

5,5% is the number everyone should have in mind when judging DDD. its not much but it is a notable boost.

Coh Magnussen's number on the other hand seems to blow it out of propotion. not a good thing to have in a tactics thread.

 Billagio wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
For gorkanaut thinking evil sunz as less shooting to lose and combos nicely with rumoured tellyport strategem, maybe even 3d6 charge forsame reason. Or dethskulj as due to deep strike kff is less quaranteed thing

Yes I was gonna do Evil sunz goraknauts for just that reason. Depends on the stratagems though, if the teleport and 3d6 charge are clan specific or have weird wording it could change things

One issue I have with evil sunz is personal problem. I have walkers with bad moon, deff skull and goff colours. If I do evil sunz that means I can't field all my walkers at once period.

Also realized just something...I need to repaint one of my(well albeit unfinished but clan colour is already there) deff dread. It's bad moon...With twin skorchas. Guess what? Klan trait won't help that at all! ARGH!

I might switch goff and bad moon weapons thus. Sigh. At least I have good paint removal method.

you dont need to repaint to use the klan traits; and if you REALLY want a way to deliniate you can paint the edge of the bases in colors to denote clan seperation

 davou wrote:
you dont need to repaint to use the klan traits; and if you REALLY want a way to deliniate you can paint the edge of the bases in colors to denote clan seperation

When I have goffs as goffs and bad moons as bad moons like hell IDENTICAL COLOURED bad moons will have different klan trait. No way I'm that rude to my opponent.