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i have a very interesting view of the KMK. i love the model, and i really liked playing them in 7th. this has nothing to do with blast templates though, i am fine with those things gone, but the way mekguns could be fielded is gone.

back in 7th the bigmek with mega armor was great to attach to a unit of mekguns, because he gave them the ability to move and shoot (me personally found this very cool), the guns could ignore the limits of the 36inch range and get closer to those oh so common extreme range shooting units of other armies. and if they got charged a bigmek with power claw could do some damage (so the weren't completely useless in combat,just slightly better).

now the differences in 8th edition make them ....really boring to play.

yeah they can move and shoot now, but the -1 because of heavy does hurt their chances to shoot, and after running for a few games against extreme range shooting armies i am forced to move (especially if someone is behind los blocking terrain, there are many times i have to move them).

now they are a lot less tough. my feelings about this are mixed, i don't think they should've been toughness7 with 3up save, but i dont like that they are now 5up saved (im fine with toughness 5). yeah, maybe the big gun should be 5up because of its diminutive nature, but 5up on the really big "made of tons of scrap metal" model does not make sense, just like how the flashgitz are still bloody only 6up saves,despite having big heavy shoulder pads that have always represented "eavy armor" and thus a 4up save. now 4up saves arnt that awesome with the proliferation of -1ap, but its the thought that counts. heck, the mek gun is technically a vehicle and no other ork vehicle is 5up save!

they are now forced to split into separate squads. im not that much of a fan of this. yeah sure it makes them more durable because it forces the enemy to split their fire etc etc, but moving/shooting each model by itself and trying to remember what you have moved/shot and what you haven't becomes difficult,especially when you run 18 of them (i have run 18 of them before, and its boring for me and tedious to keep track of 36 separate units if you count the crew). when i shoot at someone i ask the opponent if i can do the shooting in groups (i still have to roll their shots separately but ill declare what they shoot at it in groups) because i don't really like shooting everything separately like we can. also if we happen to get cool aoe shooting buffs from characters or buildings or stratagems then its very difficult for more then 4 guns to get the benefit at all (looking at the rumors of the mekshop).

in the end its boring for me to play them and its even more irritating for my opponents to fight them. it has soured my excitement for a unit i really liked in 7th.

For me, the KMKs have been amazing. I play with five of them and I usually end a game with five on the table. I suppose the reason being in my list I run two big blobs and a smaller blob of boys, two big units and a smaller unit of stormboys, Zhadsnark and three dakka jets so my opponent usually has a lot more to worry about than Kannons. I aim to get as many t1 charges off as possible to shut down shooting and take out infantry. If an opponent does decide to go after them, fine, my jets and boys are being left alone for a turn.

I’ve had great success with this list, oh and Obviously have a weird boy for da jump too.

SemperMortis wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Kustom Mega Kannons are excellent and I wouldn't even describe them as glass cannons because they're fairly durable for their points. They're cheap, pack a punch, a full unit counts as a single deploment drop but they have to be targeted individually during the game and they come with hard-to-target easy-to-hide objective grabbers. Even with -1 to-hit opponents I find them incredibly useful. They're our best shooting unit without exception and, I would imagine, comparable to similar shooting units elsewhere in the game unlike our other options. They're well worth reducing the amount of Boyz in your list to take.

T5 with a 5+ to save and 6 wounds isn't "Durable" especially since on rolls of 1 you are inflicting a Mortal wound to yourself, add in -1 to hit and its pretty likely you will lose at least 1 wound a turn. For their points they are good, but as I mentioned, at $55 a pop, you aren't likely to field too many, and since they are about the only multi-wound models worth taking at the moment they tend to draw a disproportionate amount of anti-tank fire which eats a lot of wounds quickly. Why blast an ork squad with 4 Lascannons and kill 2 or 3 Ork boyz (18pts) when you could just blast a Mek Gun and reliably kill it. So it doesn't draw fire away from the boyz that really matters as much as becomes good targets for the enemies heavier weapons.

I 100% agree they are hands down the best shooting unit in our index, but since they have zero synergy and no buffs to make them better at shooting they aren't as good compared to other factions units, like a Dev squad or a Predator backed by papa Smurf, or Tau units backed by markerlights and their plethora of rerolls and +1 shots etc.

Sounds btw you do same mistake I did. Self mortal wounds are max 1 per shooting so there's no "at least 1 wound a turn" really. If you shoot 6 times and roll 6 1's it's still just 1 mortal wound.

Still KMK's are pretty darn good. There's reason they are spammed tons for high competive tournaments. People don't invest 648€ for pretty models on high end tournaments.

geargutz wrote:
i have a very interesting view of the KMK. i love the model, and i really liked playing them in 7th. this has nothing to do with blast templates though, i am fine with those things gone, but the way mekguns could be fielded is gone.

back in 7th the bigmek with mega armor was great to attach to a unit of mekguns, because he gave them the ability to move and shoot (me personally found this very cool), the guns could ignore the limits of the 36inch range and get closer to those oh so common extreme range shooting units of other armies. and if they got charged a bigmek with power claw could do some damage (so the weren't completely useless in combat,just slightly better).

now the differences in 8th edition make them ....really boring to play.

yeah they can move and shoot now, but the -1 because of heavy does hurt their chances to shoot, and after running for a few games against extreme range shooting armies i am forced to move (especially if someone is behind los blocking terrain, there are many times i have to move them).

now they are a lot less tough. my feelings about this are mixed, i don't think they should've been toughness7 with 3up save, but i dont like that they are now 5up saved (im fine with toughness 5). yeah, maybe the big gun should be 5up because of its diminutive nature, but 5up on the really big "made of tons of scrap metal" model does not make sense, just like how the flashgitz are still bloody only 6up saves,despite having big heavy shoulder pads that have always represented "eavy armor" and thus a 4up save. now 4up saves arnt that awesome with the proliferation of -1ap, but its the thought that counts. heck, the mek gun is technically a vehicle and no other ork vehicle is 5up save!

they are now forced to split into separate squads. im not that much of a fan of this. yeah sure it makes them more durable because it forces the enemy to split their fire etc etc, but moving/shooting each model by itself and trying to remember what you have moved/shot and what you haven't becomes difficult,especially when you run 18 of them (i have run 18 of them before, and its boring for me and tedious to keep track of 36 separate units if you count the crew). when i shoot at someone i ask the opponent if i can do the shooting in groups (i still have to roll their shots separately but ill declare what they shoot at it in groups) because i don't really like shooting everything separately like we can. also if we happen to get cool aoe shooting buffs from characters or buildings or stratagems then its very difficult for more then 4 guns to get the benefit at all (looking at the rumors of the mekshop).

in the end its boring for me to play them and its even more irritating for my opponents to fight them. it has soured my excitement for a unit i really liked in 7th.

Did you ever outflank them with Morgok?? I wanted to but never did find a way to make that make sense.

I field up to 10 in a list. They give us answers to Magnus or Motarian type units.

Also for the record there is no such thing as a high end tournament Ork list.

Who here thinks Dakka3 will only apply to bikes and infantry?

"Me."

I hope it works for everything. I also do want meganobz to become viable as i still have my bully boyz on me.

 doktor_g wrote:
Who here thinks Dakka3 will only apply to bikes and infantry?

"Me."

We already know that this isn't the case - the rule explicitly calls out the bubblechucka which is a vehicle.

 Geemoney wrote:


Did you ever outflank them with Morgok?? I wanted to but never did find a way to make that make sense.

I field up to 10 in a list. They give us answers to Magnus or Motarian type units.

Also for the record there is no such thing as a high end tournament Ork list.

eh, i never got to using the morgrok formation. you had to add alot of unnecessary HQs into your list just to use it and at that time in 7th i was more focused with building and fielding the dreadmob (that formation that had another unnecessary hq for a vehicle heavy list, the painboy). 7th edition did not work well with orks due to most of our formations being trash with unrealistic requirements, remember what the minimum we had to bring was just to run the orkurians (which had a benefit that already matched the ability of one of the required formations). i had fond memories of 7th, but i also understood alot of the issues with the edition and the codex creep that left us in the dust....this edition we might actually get a proper boost for once.

Well, even with deepstrike and a 3d6 charge, gorkonaught doesn't seem to be that great overall. It's barely gona eat half a knight and than will inevitebly die as it has no invul and just 18 wounds for 350 pts.

It might be fun to use but this kind of durability doesn't really hold up in a footslogging horde.

We'll see but it seems we're doomed to stick to one type of lists due to mechanics. Diversity in saves and toughness is really bad.

Well we don't know what other changes like costs gorkanaut gets. Though with the typical GW style of up prices for index, drop for codex to get people buy expect hefty point drops. This pattern is particularly obvious for vehicles which gorkanaut is...

tneva82 wrote:
Well we don't know what other changes like costs gorkanaut gets. Though with the typical GW style of up prices for index, drop for codex to get people buy expect hefty point drops. This pattern is particularly obvious for vehicles which gorkanaut is...

yes, they are bound to do some benchmarking between Gorkonaut and the Knights since they are so close in release.

We also don't know if the gorkanaut is a valid target for the "fight again" stratagem.

Even still why would I ever use a Gorkanaut to fight a fresh Imperial Knight? That sounds like a fool errand to me.
Step 1 Put a lot of damage on that knight, step 2 Charge that damaged knight with my undamaged Gorkanaut.

 warhead01 wrote:
Even still why would I ever use a Gorkanaut to fight a fresh Imperial Knight? That sounds like a fool errand to me.
Step 1 Put a lot of damage on that knight, step 2 Charge that damaged knight with my undamaged Gorkanaut.

Well average wouid be 12 with no buffs(not even reroll). With reduced ws for knight i think i'm confident on the fight then. Plus cheaper price likely too

If there is fight again that works for gorkanaut then it could possibly one shot knight with just overwatch. Cp hungry but unlike knights orks have lots cp and knights starts to hurt if they lose knight quickly. And still practically unhurt #orkanaut amidst knights

I have mixed feelings about KMKs. I'm a huge fan of the BS, S, AP, and Damage. They get a decent amount of shots and come with Grots who can wander around and take Objectives, or bubblewrap. On the other hand, 36" range is pretty abysmal, and 3" movement is practically standing still. I still think they're the best ranged option we have, and really good against tankier units, but I usually flip flop between whether the extra 12" of range on Lootas (and the ability to support them with a Painboy for FnPs) is worth the tradeoff on BS, S, and AP. On average, per point, you're gonna get about the same number of shots (maybe a bit more for Lootas, since Command Reroll is more efficient) and Damage, so those are the only real differences.

I would use a ton of KMKs if the models were not insanely expensive.

Range I find issue only when going from short edge to short edge. Beyond 36" generally LOS is going to be bigger limiter than range.

tneva82 wrote:
Range I find issue only when going from short edge to short edge. Beyond 36" generally LOS is going to be bigger limiter than range.

Yeah if a player selects hammer and anvil then you get severely cripples on LoS requiring ordnance. Less room up front to place KMK and less vision down field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorkanaut buffed with Waagh Banner can make quick work of knights but then again I don't exactly know what strategem shenanigans they can do. Hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ with the smash profile. D6 damage. average 2d6 roll is 7 so 21 damage average if all 6 hit and wound. It's still not realistically killing it in 1 turn.

mhalko1 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Range I find issue only when going from short edge to short edge. Beyond 36" generally LOS is going to be bigger limiter than range.

Yeah if a player selects hammer and anvil then you get severely cripples on LoS requiring ordnance. Less room up front to place KMK and less vision down field.

While it does hurt their effectiveness, I have found setting them up to cover a few close objectives that might be out in the open has worked well. the other play may well feed you a few units trying to get those objectives. Just try to avoid doing the same thing. In one game I think I killed 3 or 4 enemy units that way and took that objective with several units just before the game was over. I was pressing my strength on the other side of the table which kept my units from being deleted. Just some food for though. It will depend on what the foe is to how effective it will be. I was facing SoB's with lots of transports trying to rush me but they kept 4 large units in the back because I could use da Jump at any time. so they were never able to bring all their guns down on my mobs and trukks. IG would have been a completely different game though.

 flandarz wrote:
I have mixed feelings about KMKs. I'm a huge fan of the BS, S, AP, and Damage. They get a decent amount of shots and come with Grots who can wander around and take Objectives, or bubblewrap. On the other hand, 36" range is pretty abysmal, and 3" movement is practically standing still. I still think they're the best ranged option we have, and really good against tankier units, but I usually flip flop between whether the extra 12" of range on Lootas (and the ability to support them with a Painboy for FnPs) is worth the tradeoff on BS, S, and AP. On average, per point, you're gonna get about the same number of shots (maybe a bit more for Lootas, since Command Reroll is more efficient) and Damage, so those are the only real differences.

IMO what sets them apart from lootas (besides being roughly twice as efficient) is wounding vehicles on 3+ and the additional AP. The difference between S7 and S8 is huge, KMK are better at wounding all vehicles than lootas and they are better at wounding T4, which is a great number of basic infantry and all bikers and heavy armor infantry from T3 codices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Range I find issue only when going from short edge to short edge. Beyond 36" generally LOS is going to be bigger limiter than range.

When lootas didn't suck yet, you could get great LOS on everything by putting them on top of a ruin. KMK can't do that because they are vehicles, but if lootas were to become viable again, this makes a huge difference.

That assumes there's conveniently tall ruin available. Good boards are ones where you can't quarantee you have something.

That's how it was in the past as well. Worst case you would forgo a round of shooting to move them into position. If you have no LOS anyways, there is no harm in advancing.
Since they can now still shoot even after moving, you lose even less for doing so.

Also note that infantry can move up any terrain now, so you could even sit on top of a rock or other LOS blocker, which they couldn't do in 5th.

In my experience there are very few board which have both no ruins with two upper floors and massive amounts of LOS blocking terrain.

With Dakkax3, does anyone think that taking 3 big shootas in boy squads would be viable? or on Kommandos?

Two story on board yes. Conveniently always at your dz with perfect los less so. That encourages static gunline bunkers giving them boost and that's hardly underpowered in 8th.

While we sometimes have those(never is bad as well as always) it's not quaranteed to have nice los block with 2 floors with no drawbacks. Sometimes you have another los block closeby so your lootas don't have clear los from that 2nd floor. Indeed ground floor could have better los!

Shrapnelbait wrote:
With Dakkax3, does anyone think that taking 3 big shootas in boy squads would be viable? or on Kommandos?

I don't think big shootas will ever be worth any points unless you are looking for a place to sink your last few points. 3 shots without AP at BS5 is nothing to write home about, DakkaDakkaDakka or not.

The only way they could be useful is with a profile change (unlikely) or on units with special rules that buff shooting. I'd also use them in Freeboota armies since the extra range can help finishing off certain units to trigger their buff.

What would you guys consider to be the minimum number of a given model to make it worth including them in a list?

I understand that "more boyz is more betta" but I'm also converting stormboyz, tankbustas, and (eventually) kommandos rather slowly. I'd like to pick one type and focus on it until I have "enough" to make them worth fielding, but i also have modelling ADD and they all keep calling "build me! no, build ME!".

Of course if gitz or lootaz become viable models then I'll also have to start converting those, I'm assuming we'll need the codex drop to make accurate estimates of the minimum viable unit for those, though?

Along those lines, I only have 5 nobz... is there any reason to buy more? My tentative plan (if i fielded them at all) was to run 5nobz+5runts in a chinork, or throw them in a trukk with some characters.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
What would you guys consider to be the minimum number of a given model to make it worth including them in a list?

I understand that "more boyz is more betta" but I'm also converting stormboyz, tankbustas, and (eventually) kommandos rather slowly. I'd like to pick one type and focus on it until I have "enough" to make them worth fielding, but i also have modelling ADD and they all keep calling "build me! no, build ME!".

Of course if gitz or lootaz become viable models then I'll also have to start converting those, I'm assuming we'll need the codex drop to make accurate estimates of the minimum viable unit for those, though?

Along those lines, I only have 5 nobz... is there any reason to buy more? My tentative plan (if i fielded them at all) was to run 5nobz+5runts in a chinork, or throw them in a trukk with some characters.

I think a lot of this comes down to you play style. I can't speak too much for nobz because I have only started using them as a unit this edition. I never even considered them like this even as far back as 3rd edition.
I have 16 or 17 with big choppas now and 10 to 12 with power Klaws as well. But I never upgrade my Boss Nobs in boys mobs any more.
I don't think you need 5 ammo runts, I think 3 will do it. Supported by a pain boy and maybe a weird boy or waaaagh banner. (Just depends on what you like to do and can make work.
For Gitz and lootas. I have 15 Gitz so far and am holding out till next year to decide about any more. For me, A small mob has been stronger than I had expected and put in a lot of work the few times I have used them I bought 10 more because of that good work and the Mob up Stratagem.
Lootas. Well I have probably 45 of them but am downsizing. Historically they haven't done enough to justify so many in any list. I don't seem to have much luck with them. Last edition I was fielding 3 or 4 mobs of 5 for the base cost of the unit and that seemed much more productive during games. This edition I have fielded 1 unit of 6 and that was ok. So I'd say 10 is probably a reasonable purchase. 15 might be fine as well.

Hope that was helpful.

Thanks, warhead. Sadly so far my "playstyle" is merely theoretical -- i don't have anywhere near a whole army yet. I'm thinking I need to finish a kill-team (use up some of those burna-bitz) then go back to work on the army so I can actually start playing something .

 Jidmah wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
With Dakkax3, does anyone think that taking 3 big shootas in boy squads would be viable? or on Kommandos?

I don't think big shootas will ever be worth any points unless you are looking for a place to sink your last few points. 3 shots without AP at BS5 is nothing to write home about, DakkaDakkaDakka or not.

The only way they could be useful is with a profile change (unlikely) or on units with special rules that buff shooting. I'd also use them in Freeboota armies since the extra range can help finishing off certain units to trigger their buff.

Yeah, unfortunately, as is Big Shootas are worth 0 points like shootas, since they're a sidegrade at best and a tax at worst for vehicles like Trukks. They'd have to become Rapid Fire 3 to be worth the current points they are or gain -1 AP to at least do something against their targets.

Weird. Double post.