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 JohnU wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

gungo wrote:
because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.

I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.

You can see the table of contents for the FW stuff if you look on the pre-order page. No looted wagons :/

Big Trakk rules might be the closest we get for now.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-xenos-2017

Looks like the Mek Boy Junka is gone too.

I'm going to miss that unit.

Interestingly, it also doesn't have the Mega Dread down there.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Thornoo1 wrote:
I'm porting my post from over at the Waaagh forum.

Played my first game last night. Yep still struggle to take down knights, 3 even more so, tabled by turn two. A lot taken away from even one game., yes I understand I might be projecting more than I should in the following comments

A knight can take out an unf-FF'd battlewagon in a turn, 'ardtop does make a difference, my second wagon wasn't killed in one round of knight shooting due to the 4's to be wounded.

Knight overwatch is PUNISHING. I didnt get my 10 nobs with powerklaws into melee and then it was all over. We replayed nobs getting in, with a Waaagh Banner they juts killed a knight, on the second pretend play through without the banner it had a few wounds left, stepped out of combat and obliterated my only unit which could touch it.

This might be good for us in a way. If Knights become the new scatbikes, everyone will be taking more anti-tank, which means on the non-knight games many armies won't be able to deal with hordes.

Knights fail on missions they can't reliably claim an objective. So they need to table you.
If they take triple knight list they don't have points for much of any infantry. If they take one knight a list with decent anti vehicles can kill it. Several units of tank bustas, kmk, nauts, lootas etc.

On the flip side I was thinking how the bubblechukks might be good? If you take a army with a lot of command points and can devote 3-4 command points to a bubble chukka a game. You can do alot of damage w it. Roll 4 die, reroll the lowest w cp if needed. Always Take the next lowest and put it into ap. As long as you didn't roll triple 1s or 1/1/2 the bubble chukka can do a lot of damage on average. The problem is the bubble chukka requires command points to be fairly reliable. Someone should test a unit of 2 of them out and feed them your command points. I bet you they can be brutal. Try it out yourself w 4 dice rerolling 1. The chukka is the best use of command points and powerful. Probably why it's the second highest priced weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 JohnU wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:

gungo wrote:
because its been asked several times This is the facebook post ive seen regarding looted wagon rules.

I hope Forgeworld gets the Ork Index rolled out in a timely manner then.

You can see the table of contents for the FW stuff if you look on the pre-order page. No looted wagons :/

Big Trakk rules might be the closest we get for now.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Imperial-Armour-Index-xenos-2017

Looks like the Mek Boy Junka is gone too.

I'm going to miss that unit.

Interestingly, it also doesn't have the Mega Dread down there.

The description of the book says 19 data sheets for orks but the index only has like 14. The mega dread is still sold leading me to believe the data sheet has been combined under the meka dread section.

Yeah, if there's still a model for it, I definitely expect there to still be rules.

 davou wrote:


So your saying that;
we can argue about points costs, rules maths, buffs nerfs in a vacuum, and you will never concede a single point despite loads of people disagreeing with you.

So far the only arguments any of you have offered to contradict those point values is "You cant compare 7th values to 8th" which is a wonderful argument to derail the conversation, usually you follow with "You can't compare other armies to orks". So if anyone is trying to not concede a point I would politely suggest you look in a mirror. As for the loads of people disagreeing with me? from what ive seen its about 1/3. 1/3rd agree, 1/3rd disagree and 1/3rd don't care.

 davou wrote:

That even when you misrepresent the maths regarding the rules we are arguing about by using the wrong numbers, you will still maintain you points

I don't misrepresent, I will admit I don't have the exact point costs in front of me and messed up the values a couple of times. But generally my point still remains valid with the different price for weapons or units. I have yet to see anyone use actual math to show how those Ork units i singled out got better or failing that got more competitive compared to similar units from last edition. IE Battlewagon Vs Predator or Trukk Vs Rhino.

 davou wrote:

That when the vacuum starts to lift and we get some actual evidence that supports the case you were arguing against, you're going to suggest that every ork player doing well in that body of evidence is Mentally deficient.

Actually literally the opposite of what I suggested. I said specifically in the case of the Miniwargaming Batrep that the Space Marine opponent was a Moron for bringing a Melta Spam list against an Ork army. I think the Ork player had something like 68 models and the SM player had 16ish? And then to exacerbate that poor list building he decided it would be a good idea to take a Melta Dread and charge a unit of boyz supported by a painboy and Ghaz. He also left Centurion and a Vindicator in easy charge range of the orks 2nd turn when he could have easily backed up. Quark only managed to get successful charges off because he was so close to his opponent. One of them was a 6 inch charge or less.

 davou wrote:

Failing being able to argue that the person has some kind of mental handicap, you're going to suggest that the dice spiked (but only ever in favor of the orks).

I'm not going to suggest the dice were "spiked". but if the Ork player boasts about how his opponent missed 90% of the time or how his Painboy's FNP saved 20 boyz in a row with 6+ Saves its going to be a bit off and I would suggest that is an outlier and not necessarily the norm.

 davou wrote:

And finally that if all of the above somehow does not apply, you still reserve the right to accuse the persons making those battle reports of being under pay of some pro-ork conspiracy to hide the fact that they are in actuality nerfed again.

I guess the joke was to much for you to handle. From now on i'll make sure to mention when im trying to be flippant or humorous.

 davou wrote:
Because I think all the above considered, you should probably not participate in this thread anymore mate... You're contributing a net overall loss to those of us who want to play, are entirely immune to sense or proof, and hostile to any disagreement.

I'm not hostile to anyone, I am attempting to show statistical evidence about the difference between 7th edition orks which were terrible and 8th edition orks which are somehow worse at shooting, lost cover saves almost entirely, had a host of rule changes which marginally help them while greatly helping other factions and cost significantly more but somehow are going to be better....

So to summarize, I will continue to post and poke holes in strawman arguments or invalid points.

Even if we get a looted wagon I dont think its going to have a gud role any more with the 8 edition changes.

I would typically take them for access to large AOEs but I dont see that happening any more.

What would be neat tho is if it can take a few CC upgrades and be a smaller version of BW. Further armor and durability options might make it a go to transport but we will have to wait and see

How do you guys think Orks are going to beat vehicles this edition?

There's going to be a lot of them - and I think point for point, Tankbustas just aren't going to be good/enough.

fe40k wrote:
How do you guys think Orks are going to beat vehicles this edition?

There's going to be a lot of them - and I think point for point, Tankbustas just aren't going to be good/enough.

It depends on how many tankbustas you have

Mine are all kitbashed boyz, and I have about 17 or so. The official model is quite pricey ($9 each) so I don't know too many people that use them.

I intend to use a lot of them in trukks are bws, along with lootas. a very heavy tank list would be a problem, but not just for us.

fe40k wrote:
How do you guys think Orks are going to beat vehicles this edition?

There's going to be a lot of them - and I think point for point, Tankbustas just aren't going to be good/enough.

Nobz with Big Choppas are going to do work. S7 with -1 AP and auto 2 damage. Nobz got cheaper since they come stock with 4+ armor. Big Choppas are only 9pts (should still be 5 but whatever) so you can field almost 3 of them for the price of a single Power Klaw. Since most vehicles are T6-8 you are really only missing out on T8. So a unit of 5 Nobz all with Big Choppas is going to put out 15 S7 attacks hitting on 3s so 10 hits and Against T6 thats 6-7 wounds, T7 thats 5wounds and T8 3wounds. But they are all -1 to armor and 2dmg each. So you are going to be ok with that.

Conversely if your trying to kill from range....your SOL. Lootas are still a good option but you pretty much HAVE TO buy them a trukk or a battlewagon to act as a mobile bunker, otherwise they will die whenever someone sneezes at them. And unfortunately they are still just hard to aim autocannons.

Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.

gungo wrote:
Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.

We'll see what the rules for the big trakk are...maybe a little tougher than a trukk and 12 capacity. Would be perfect for a bustas.

gungo wrote:
Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.

What do you guys plan to use for bomb squig models? Tankbusta kit squigs? AoS grot squig herders? Kromlech Gnaws herd? I guess Kromlech's is our best bet but I don't really like the models...

http://bitsofwar.com/home/196-gnaws-herd.html

@Gungo: I didn't think about MSU of Tankbustas; I was going to take 10+2 squigs (so the same thing), but MSU is better in one trukk.

I guess I'll have to take some Tankbustas and do some testing - they still seem a bit expensive for what they do; but it's what we got.

Also @Ashkayel: Nice link, I'l probably have to pick some squigs up through there.

Ashkayel wrote:

gungo wrote:
Tankbustas and bomb squigs are the best option we have.
20 tankbustas w 4 bomb squigs on an imperial knight is close to 1 dead knight.

Bomb squigs are the best value but sadly I can only fit 1 squig per 5 bust a unit in a truck with 2 squads in it.

2 units of bustas w a bomb squig each in a truck w wrecking ball is 275. So 550 for 4 units of bustas 4 squigs and 2 trukks. This can kill an imperial knight the first turn if you get into 18in range.

Any wounds remaining on the knight just pick off with a loota or kmk squad.

For cheaper models kromlech has a nice set of rokkit boys.

What do you guys plan to use for bomb squig models? Tankbusta kit squigs? AoS grot squig herders? Kromlech Gnaws herd? I guess Kromlech's is our best bet but I don't really like the models...

http://bitsofwar.com/home/196-gnaws-herd.html

Well, I plan on using that one grot from the gretchin box with the stikkbomb in hand and just add whatever explosives i can find in my bits box - no one is going to argue about an exploding grot not being a squig

Agreed, grots carrying armloads of dynamite (or other explosives) seem a pretty easy conversion option for counts-as bomb squigs, and unlikely to offend any purists.

Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Powa stabba...
I guess it's decent for the price, but I'd prefer to pay a little more and get a D2 weapon and better strength, if worse AP.

We can just calculate it.

Powa Stabba Nob vs Bigchoppa Nob vs PK nob-- killiness per point

Dead Meq:
0.88 vs 0.66 vs 1.04 -- 0.044 vs 0.026 vs 0.025

Dead Meq with 2 wounds:
0.44 vs 0.66 vs 1/3 for 0.52 and 2/3 for 1.04 -- 0.022 vs 0.026 vs 1/3 for 0.012 or 2/3 for 0.025

Dead biker meq with 2 wounds:
0.33 vs 0.66 vs 1/3 for 0.52 and 2/3 for 1.04 -- 0.010 vs 0.026 vs 1/3 for 0.012 or 2/3 for 0.025

Dead teq with 2 wounds:
0.33 vs 0.44 vs 1/3 for 0.42 and 2/3 for 0.83 -- 0.010 vs 0.017 vs 1/3 for 0.010 or 2/3 for 0.020

Wounds vs a rhino:
0.44 vs 1.00 vs 1/3 for 0.83 and 1/3 for 1.67 and 1/3 for 2.50 --- 0.022 vs 0.038 vs 1/3 for 0.020 and 1/3 for 0.040 and 1/3 for 0.059
3*2/3
Wounds vs a Knight:
0.44 vs 0.67 vs 1/3 for 0.83 and 1/3 for 1.67 and 1/3 for 2.50 --- 0.022 vs 0.026 vs 1/3 for 0.020 and 1/3 for 0.040 and 1/3 for 0.059





Automatically Appended Next Post:
if you don't want to get into numbers:
Power klaw is still statistically the killiest vs stuff w/o invul. Point-for-point, powa stabbas are best at killing most 1-wound stuff with 5+ save or better (and w/o invuln). Big choppas are best at killing 2-wound stuff point-for point and klaws go ahead vs knight-equal enemies.

All in all, we will still struggle to kill larger tougher enemies before they kill us cause to one-shot a knight, you need 600 pts of klaw nobz or 923 pt of bigchoppa nobz to strike simultaniously. That's 15 klaw nobz or 35.5 bigchoppa nobz - not the most point-efficient and safe squad to have around. If you only have to choose from a bc and a pk for a single model - like nob squad leader, the klaw is still the preferable choice if you have points. If you have squads of nobz, you can go for a mix. But i'd probably avoid power klaws foк nob squads simply because they loose durability. I'd go for a mix of stabbas and bigchoppas.

Can anyone calculate the effectiveness of a banner nob? When will he start being benefical buffing something like meganobz or nobz?

Ashkayel wrote:
What do you guys plan to use for bomb squig models?

My orks use alot of battlefield salvage in their vehicles and weapons so I was thinking of converting Tau Drones with some bombs attached


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

Power klaw is still statistically the killiest vs stuff w/o invul.

How much better is the killsaw over the power klaw? only 3 points different but extra -2 AP must be significant against MEQ and vehicles

@MangoMadness; Haven't mathed out the killsaw yet, but -2 AP sounds significant, especially for fighting vehicles.

Asking the Orks - how would we fight a 1+ Baneblade/other super heavy tank/walker list?

One of the IG players threw out a Triple Baneblade list at 2000 points; that looks like it would stomp a lot more than you'd think into the ground - so much heavy anti-armor/elites firepower from the cannons; then a mass of bolters and otherjunk on top of it (and 9 5+ melee attacks too). Can't stop it with melee, if you can even make it there... 26 wounds, T8, 3+ armor save is brutal. They'd pretty much always get the first turn too, due to total unit counts.

Maybe a mixed Morkanaut/Gorkanaut list could fight it; if you have an opportunity to get to melee (it's faster than you too, at 10" to 8" (but on a small tablesize, maybe that's not so important)). Maybe Mek Gunz/Smasha Guns could fight it too, but they're pricey, and you'd need to get pretty lucky.

Sure, the triple baneblade list is an "all in" kind of list; but it looks legit this edition. Especially when taken to a tournament, who could prepare for that with a reasonable list?

Edit: Maybe Orks will get some better/equivalent options in terms of fielding and answering such super heavy units, when the Forgeworld books come out.

Its hard to tell. a triple banebalde sounds absolutely horrible to play against. But we have no idea yet what the meta will evolve to. And not to mention all the netlists which will invariably alter the local metas.

How about flier spam? The wazbom jet has a teleport mega-blasta/KMK, smasha and shootas. Yeh its not perfect. But for example you could effectively pile on wounds. Then have a second wazbom that has the teleblasta, so once below 6W you can fish for those instant-kills. Just spit balling. But to be honest, I think with the way the detatchments work even triple baneblade will have some viable counter lists.

Solar Shock wrote:
Its hard to tell. a triple banebalde sounds absolutely horrible to play against. But we have no idea yet what the meta will evolve to. And not to mention all the netlists which will invariably alter the local metas.

How about flier spam? The wazbom jet has a teleport mega-blasta/KMK, smasha and shootas. Yeh its not perfect. But for example you could effectively pile on wounds. Then have a second wazbom that has the teleblasta, so once below 6W you can fish for those instant-kills. Just spit balling. But to be honest, I think with the way the detatchments work even triple baneblade will have some viable counter lists.

Try ghazkhull, 2XX boyz and some weirdboy, will be fun (i assume you choose your power which will be the jump spell).

Or go with 2 stompas and one bigmek with kff.

KMK everywhere You can probably get like 15 KMKs for his one Baneblade and then cover them with a KFF. Shell him into oblivion.

Can you guys link where you are reading point costs? There was a link in the old thread. But at the moment I cant find it.

Solar Shock wrote:
Can you guys link where you are reading point costs? There was a link in the old thread. But at the moment I cant find it.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4IGo22sDo4zdEtrRmEyelg2TkU

I agree that grots carrying bombshells and other stuff like T'au drones will do the job marvelously for bomb squigs! A friend just gave me a devilfish with 2 drones to loot as a trukk/LW/BW!

Talking about points (i dont have the link sorry) is it just me or is everyone planning on writing the points in the unit entries instead of referencing the back of the book all the time?


Another thing - Kommandos

People have already mentioned they are cheap at 45 points, they also seem to be a nice combo in a trukk with a tankbuster unit with 2 squigs (7 models)

Its cheap and fragile but if the transport blows up then they can take the wounds instead of the more valuable tank busters. Also they can easily disembark on T2/3 and do a little bit of damage in HTH with the 2 burners and maybe the boss nob with big choppa at an extra 9 points.

Even without using their infiltration rule i think they might have a support role in the main line.

Meganobz. Let's calculate their killiness vs rhinos and knights. We'll also count in k-shoota and k-skorcha separately. I don't think anyone will take rokkits - 20 pts is a stiff price to pay for them - but let's still calculate it. My gut feeling is that a k-skorcha is better at killing tanks than a k-rokkit.
We'll also calculate pk as having an average damage of 2 as it doesn't matter that much vs targets with lots of wounds. Sure, they might be more effective if you count in command point re-rolls but i'll not do it here.

Klaw vs Killsaw vs Double Killsaw
Vs anything with T6-11 and 3+ armor
1.67 vs 2.50 vs 2.67

K-shoota vs K-skorcha shooting both weapons vs k-rokkit shooting a rokkit only.
VS t6-7
0.15 vs 0,62 vs 0.44

VS t8
0.07 vs 0,60 vs 0.33

Killiness per point of a model:

VS t6-7
pk+kshoota - 0.034
pk + kskorcha - 0.033
pk + krokkit - 0.30

killsaw + kshoota - 0.047
killsaw + kskorcha - 0.044
killsaw + krokkit - 0.041

VS t8
pk+kshoota - 0.031
pk + kskorcha - 0.033
pk + krokkit - 0.030

killsaw + kshoota - 0.046
killsaw + kskorcha - 0.044
killsaw + krokkit - 0.039

2 killsaws - 0.043

Some interesting results here.
Killsaw is always much better than a pk vs 3+ armor or higher. Secondary weapon doesn't mean much at killing vehicles point-for-point but if you got to concentrate power, like when you don't have enough space or models, go for k-skorcha. If you can have more manz, go for k-shoota - it's the best at killing vehicles point-for-point. K-rokkit is the worst.

Tlr - Always take a killsaw. 2 killsaws vs a killsaw + another weapon are not any different unless you also have a banner nob, in which case 2 killsaws go ahead. Also, killsaws are not affected by cover. Other than you get lower chances of actually doing damage cause of a failed charge. But in this case all this calculations are pretty irrelevant anywayz.

K-rokkits are the worst of all shooting weapons at pretty much any job other than shooting from far away.

Soss wrote:
Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.

Short answer: Yes, you can.

Long answer: All fortifications are unaligned and thus can be taken for any army as long as you pick an detachment that allows you bring one or more fortifications. The rules for all fortifications can be found in the back of the Imperium 2 index.

 Jidmah wrote:

Soss wrote:
Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.

Short answer: Yes, you can.

Long answer: All fortifications are unaligned and thus can be taken for any army as long as you pick an detachment that allows you bring one or more fortifications. The rules for all fortifications can be found in the back of the Imperium 2 index.

They should put that in the core rules? or you were joking about taking fortifications for other armies.

Played a game list night against a big bug list. Won the game 8-1. Below is my list

Spearhead detachment
HQ
Big mek + KFF + grot oiler < deployed in Gorkanaut

Big mek in mega armor + KFF + Killsaw + grot oiler

Heavy support
Gorkanaut
Morkanaut
3 deff dreads (dread with 3 arms and rokket, dread with 2 arms and 2 skorchas, dread with 2 arms and 2 big shootas)
Squad of 6 Kill Kans (4 big shootas, skorcha, grotzooka)
Squad of 10 lootas + spanner boy

Elite
Burna boyz (2 spannerz 3 burnas) < deployed inside Morkanaut

The theme for this list is dreads and big stompy robots. Also wanted to see how well the repair ability works. Oddly enough this even works in CC now. Big mek has a 3" bubble of repair/heal ability. I deployed him in a ring of Kill kans. Gives the Kans a 5++ and shields my big mek in mega armor from being shoot at and assaulted. Yep that's right, big mek on foot running solo. Then he can stand back and repair the kans as they fight or walk over to any of the other vehicles and repair them. (d3+1 wounds a turn with a grot oiler) You can only fix 1 kan at a time.

Kans are beast in CC. Now you only hit on a 5+, but you can take a squad of 6 of them now! If the squad is more than 3, each can gets 1 more attack. This gives each kan 4 attacks at str 8 ap -3 for 3 dmg.

My opponent got a prime with a unit of warriors in a tunnel. They popped up and then assaulted me. The warriros killed 1 of my mek units that got out of the morkanaut to repair it. (Kind of stupid, but its how its done.) The Prime made it into combat with the Gorkanaut. He punched first and did 6 wounds. I punched back with the klaw of gork in crush mode and did 18 wounds of damage to him. Gorkanaut and Morkanaut are amazing in combat. You can either crush for str x2 ap-4 dmg 6 4-6 attacks or you can smash for 12-18 str users ap -2 dmg 2 each. If you are fighting big stuff, I'd crush for big damage. If you are fighting infantry, including terminators, smash!

Command points are going to key for the orks getting our timing right for assaults. I would always save 1 point for the reroll.

little-killer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Soss wrote:
Does anybody me know if Orks can take an Imperial Bunker in 8th? I used to take one to put my Lootas in for 7th and even have a scratch built one that is Orkified.

Short answer: Yes, you can.

Long answer: All fortifications are unaligned and thus can be taken for any army as long as you pick an detachment that allows you bring one or more fortifications. The rules for all fortifications can be found in the back of the Imperium 2 index.

They should put that in the core rules? or you were joking about taking fortifications for other armies.

Fortifications in the back of the imperium 2 book can be taken by any army.

Void Shield Generator gives a 4++ bubble, already planning on covering a bunch of orks with it.

Any thoughts on green tide in this edition? I've got an ork army that hasn't seen daylight since 5th edition