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I was able to get two games in with the new orks this past Saturday. My list at 1850 was a ton of boyz like I think my model count was 155 models 113 of which were boy squads. I also brought stormboyz in a group of 23. 20 lootas in the backfield, Nob Banner and Grotsnik + 3 Biker Warbosses. Oh and the real MVPSs 20 gretchin.

My main takeaways from the ork units themselves are:

1. Grotsnik is borderline auto include. He is 9 more points than a standard painboy and gives you klan wide 'healing', +1 toughess, +2 leadership, a 4+ save, a built in 5+ ignore wounds on himself, AND he hits on 2s+ which is huge because he uses a power klaw. Hitting on 3s instead of 4s when you have 4 attacks is pretty big. This dude is very durable and can really be a clutch force multiplier with his power klaw.

2. Hordes are strong when backed by beefy hitters. I had a huge amount of boyz marching up the field and everything that was high value was a character hidding amongst them.
Big weapons get wasted on hordes backed by ICS. Now the boyz do lack a bit of killing power against vehicles so I do advise always having something killy around them like a warboss when you really need something dead.
"Alright this weapon is s10 - 4 and does d6 wounds".
- "Ok have fun killing a single 6 point model with it."

3. Biker Warbosses are great for their price. These guys are tough, durable and dead killy. For me they are my go to HQs. but I do make a note to make sure to minimize attacks they can receive back from dedicated melee squads. Keep him screened.

4. Nob with a banner is an auto include for me. His +1 to hit is HUGE when you are getting 50+ attacks on average and especially so when he is around power klaw users. Its also fun watching him beat a space marine to death with the banner itself.

5. Lootas perform well against infantry and monsters. I did not get to test them against vehicles so I cannot attest to that. 20 lootas divided between two squads managed to 100 - 0 a Swarmlord turn and 12 Lootas took out 3 Custodes. One really big thing I found was being able to use command points to re-roll their D3 shots. It goes a long way in making them more reliable shooters. They really need volume of fire to be effective, but oh boy when they are rolling hots things die. I really like them as a long range support unit camping in ruins somewhere.

6. Gretchin are good slot fillers and screeners. I enjoy watching them eat fire for the boyz. They have a place if you really cannot afford the extra points for a boy squad which can happen.

7. Shootas versus choppas I have not tested. I think choppas will be the better rout to go considering its a melee army and you really want those extra attacks.

8. Weirdboyz are our doomed saviors. They are very reliable spell casters if you run model heavy, but they will kill themselves very quickly. However they are great for flinging boyz around and I also found they were BRUTAL at dishing out smite damage because if they manifest over a 10 they do d6 mortal wounds. They are cheap at 62 points and really bring a lot to the table.

Yeah lootas and burnas are two totally different roles. Maybe burnas and gitz together as the gitz need to be a bit closer and the burnas can act as a buffer/counter assault unit.

Do models like ammo runts/grot oilers/bomb squigs count as "models" for transport capacity???

Edit: great takeaways, iron blood. I feel the same way. Hordes can be great if backed up properly with the right characters and weapon loadouts. Do you plan on/did you use a kff Mek or park boy to protect the boys? If positioned propeealy one of each can be used on two units. That's an extra 50% causality protection when combines.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I think I'm going to "commission" my father to make movement trays for my green tide. 30 slots in each 4 rows of 7 with two in the back. That way everyone is in 9" range of the KFF and it doesn't take forever to move the horde. Still might drop in a pain boy in between two blobs. It sucks it's only a 6, but I used to have to pay for two..where now it's only one. Worth it to try to get in in combat?? I would worry about him getting targeted but that killsaw is brutal. Maybe I'll charge him in if there is a character I can target directly.

For 2pts more then a painboy w killsaw and runt just take mad doc. He hits on a 3+ has a 4+ sv, higher toughness, has a double chance to fnp with his personal 5+ and his aura 6+ and better leadership for units close to him. He does have 1 less ablative wound since he doesn t have a runt.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Yeah lootas and burnas are two totally different roles. Maybe burnas and gitz together as the gitz need to be a bit closer and the burnas can act as a buffer/counter assault unit.

Do models like ammo runts/grot oilers/bomb squigs count as "models" for transport capacity???

Edit: great takeaways, iron blood. I feel the same way. Hordes can be great if backed up properly with the right characters and weapon loadouts. Do you plan on/did you use a kff Mek or park boy to protect the boys? If positioned propeealy one of each can be used on two units. That's an extra 50% causality protection when combines.

I did not use a big mek. I know id rather not use a mega armored or biker one because they cost a lot more than id like them to. Now a basic mek with no upgrades and just a kff is 75 points which is not terrible. My only issues with bringing one are that its 75 points to protect a bunch of boyz from range in a 9' bubble and I HAVE to stay fully within that range which hurts my mobility. In addition it would be pretty easy to just shoot at the units that are not protected. I think id rather take more boyz or a wierdboy for that price and just accept the fact that my boy hordes will die. That and assault is not uncommon in my meta and it does not help there.

 Nazrak wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.

Kommandos look pretty boss for the points. I imagine the go-to tactic will be to plop them into cover (if possible) at deployment, hope they survive the first turn if you're going second, then throw them at a bigger, more points-heavy unit to tie them up for a turn and hopefully inflict a reasonable amount of damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.

My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.

tag8833 wrote:

Yep. You can see the difference in the "Saves" category. the issue is many things have an invul that kicks in. Rowboat Girlyman takes exactly the same from PK and Killsaw on average because of invul.

But the knight doesn't.

gungo wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.

Kommandos look pretty boss for the points. I imagine the go-to tactic will be to plop them into cover (if possible) at deployment, hope they survive the first turn if you're going second, then throw them at a bigger, more points-heavy unit to tie them up for a turn and hopefully inflict a reasonable amount of damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.

My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.

I may be misunderstanding what you mean by if opponent goes first. You don't have to worry about their survivability in that instance, you don't have to set them up until the end of your own movement phase.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.

My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.

exactly. deploy into reserves, then if you go first they can deploy 9" away anywhere on the board. go for T1 charge to tie stuff up. if you go second, see what they do, counter deploy and charge T1.
basically they can be used to tie up backfield shooty stuff, or to deploy as an invisible screen to anything your opponent threatens. not to mention as they deploy at the end of your movement, they will literally never get in the way if you need to retreat.
That BW full of gitz getting rushed by bikers? reverse, deploy an invisible bubble wrap and unload those 30 shots with re-rolls. then charge with the kommandos if you think its better than waiting for the charge

 warhead01 wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
What is the consensus on Kommandos?
Seems pretty reasonable, getting an additional point of saves in cover, and could deliver a big choppa or powerklaw onto something that needs it.
Also, Burnas and Lootas in the same Battlewagon? Throw a Big Mek or two with Shok-attack guns and maybe a KFF, etc.

Kommandos look pretty boss for the points. I imagine the go-to tactic will be to plop them into cover (if possible) at deployment, hope they survive the first turn if you're going second, then throw them at a bigger, more points-heavy unit to tie them up for a turn and hopefully inflict a reasonable amount of damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not sure mixing Burnas and Lootas is such a great plan though; the former want to be up close, the latter far away.

My go to tactic for kommandos
Multiple Squad of 5 with 2 free burnas is 45pts each
Deploy first turn
Hope you go first or survive with a 4+sv in cover and a mean overwatch
First turn charge w reroll from ere we go
Tie up the enemies best shooty units and hit them with a lot of str4 ap-2 melee atks.
Unless you go first I'm not sure how survivable they are going to be. But if my opponent is shooting at a 45pt unit instead of something better I guess they did thier job.

I may be misunderstanding what you mean by if opponent goes first. You don't have to worry about their survivability in that instance, you don't have to set them up until the end of your own movement phase.

Doyyy, of course. Forgot they set up at the end of your Movement phase rather than at deployment. You understood perfectly, I was just being a div.

Ok so if a big Mek with kff and mad doc grotsnik are essentially the same price.. what do you guys think would have a lager impact overall? I'm leaning towards the doc as not only do you not need to have everyone in a tight bubble, but his ability is both shooing and cc. Granted it's only a 6+. Would be nice to have a big tough cc monster like a MA warboss in front of him so he can heal him d3 every turn. Warboss needs to babysit da boyZ anyway for a proper waaagh!

Having a hard time seeing when a kff > doc except when you know you will be facing a shooting heavy army.

I have got a great schematic for a movement tray. 4 rows of 7 in a staggered arrangement. The furthest boy in the tray would be 8" away and perfectly within the mek's bubble. Either way, it will be nice to not have to move 90+ models several times a game. 1/4" between models. 1/8" deep


http://i.imgur.com/cnHqBHe.jpg

A KFF covers everything, while the Dok only works on infantry and bikes. Just depends on your army composition.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Ok so if a big Mek with kff and mad doc grotsnik are essentially the same price.. what do you guys think would have a lager impact overall? I'm leaning towards the doc as not only do you not need to have everyone in a tight bubble, but his ability is both shooing and cc. Granted it's only a 6+. Would be nice to have a big tough cc monster like a MA warboss in front of him so he can heal him d3 every turn. Warboss needs to babysit da boyZ anyway for a proper waaagh!

Having a hard time seeing when a kff > doc except when you know you will be facing a shooting heavy army.

I have got a great schematic for a movement tray. 4 rows of 7 in a staggered arrangement. The furthest boy in the tray would be 8" away and perfectly within the mek's bubble. Either way, it will be nice to not have to move 90+ models several times a game. 1/4" between models. 1/8" deep


http://i.imgur.com/cnHqBHe.jpg

They should be used together. You get both saves. As to which is better, they do different things. KFF is a better save but you don't get it against mortal wounds or in close combat. Painboy/Grotsnik is only 6+ and can be taken vs mortal wounds and in close combat.

Using both is best, but I have saved far more units with KFF. Also painboy/grotsnik does nothing for vehicles.

Does the "open topped" rule allow occupants in a battlewagon to benefit from "Mobile fortress"

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:


Having a hard time seeing when a kff > doc except when you know you will be facing a shooting heavy army.


http://i.imgur.com/cnHqBHe.jpg

My plan is to use the KFF to project a bit of a safety net against turn on alpha on my trukk line. Kff save + ramshackle makes it seem like I can intend to not lose any trukks in the first turn of a game going forward except after I've used them for what they are intended in my lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Does the "open topped" rule allow occupants in a battlewagon to benefit from "Mobile fortress"

yes

I wasn't feeling the KFF at all due to the challenge of keeping a squad of boyz "Fully within" 9". However, after playing a couple games with Killa Kans, I'm changing my tune. KFF big mek would go really well with a Kan wall. He can repair the walkers, too. I think it isn't for boyz, it is for Vehicles.

 koooaei wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Yep. You can see the difference in the "Saves" category. the issue is many things have an invul that kicks in. Rowboat Girlyman takes exactly the same from PK and Killsaw on average because of invul.

But the knight doesn't.

Because the Knight has a 5+ invul.

I was told by my local GW manager it didn't and refused to listen to any reasoning. Everyone else in the entire store told me I was wrong and that the embarked passengers still suffered -1 to hit. I was furious.

Another point of arguement I had with them.. Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:


Another point of arguement I had with them.. Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?

They do.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I was told by my local GW manager it didn't and refused to listen to any reasoning. Everyone else in the entire store told me I was wrong and that the embarked passengers still suffered -1 to hit. I was furious.

Another point of arguement I had with them.. Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?

A point of advice: Never argue during games, your opponent will always subconsciously argue in his favor since he is in danger of losing model at that very moment. You will rarely get an objective discussion during a game. Just offer to 4+ it, ask the host or just agree with him to resolve the matter as fast as possible.
It might suck for that moment that your opponent and/or host got the rules wrong, but getting into a heated argument instead of killing stuff sucks even more. If you have rules issues, resolve them before or after the game. Next time try talking about open topped before deployment, or have a talk with the GW manager when you're in the store next time. Show him the relevant rules and ask him why he thinks they work differently. Next time he gets called over he might make the right call.

Also, never argue with a group of people. Chances are that one popular person will make a call and everyone else will just agree because of that person's reputation without even bothering with the rules. When you factor in that no one wants to be wrong in front of his buddies, you have little chance to change their opinion. Nothing to be won here but hard feelings.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:


Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?

They do, in fact they can be taken only for mitigating the exploding result when the vehicle is wrecked. Since you can chose the eventual casualties grots/squigs are the perfect candidates to play the role of the expendable part of the unit. If you plan to use multiwounds units in trukks like nobz and flash gitz one ammo runt at least can be invaluable for its cost. Meganobz can't take ammo runts but they can share the trukk with a painboy with a grot orderly, or with 5 tankbustas and a bomb squig.

 DaisyWondercow wrote:
an immediate lesson learned for list building: minimize your deployment.

In 8th, most of the missions have the first player to finish deploying also go first. In this edition of definitely T2 (sometimes even T1!) charges, this is critical. So <SNIP> run kommandos, get that first turn!

I want to talk about kommandos and deployment as it seems to be inferred that using them reduces your total number of deployments, i would disagree but i would like others opinions.

Kommando entry states "During deployment, you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding instead of placing them on the battlefield"

Lets dissect the sentence
"During Deployment" - pretty obvious, during Deployment as outlined by the scenario.
", you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding" - gives a secondary deployment option
"instead of placing them on the battlefield" - the normal option for deployment during 'Deployment'

I see this as still having to use the normal deployment rules (as per scenario) but having a secondary option. This is how i see them being deployed

During Deployment
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork player - I select kommando unit 1 in hiding 'instead of placing them on the battlefield'
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork Player - I select kommando unit 2 and place them *here*

I dont see where their alternate placement method means they skips normal deployment, unless there is a rule in the rulebook that i have missed (a possibility as we dont even have the rules yet )

What do you think and why do you think it?

No Mango I agree.

I think what people are doing to minimise deployment is;

Deploying 1-2 units inside vehicles - such as the BW, Does this count as a single deployment?

Using large blobs.

But I dont know. To me it seems a bit annoying that if we field anything even remotely MSU were almost always guaranteed second turn. Now that there is split fire, there is almost nothing gained from MSU, especially if they split their shots and get the rolls they wanted. So it seems almost every horde list is at a disadvantage; even though your both playing to the same points value.

I mean I get the idea, that now you can build a list in order to go first. But who builds a list to go second? The only time I can think of where going second was useful would be an alpha strike list. But now I would imagine most alpha strike lists will be going first anyway, as they tended to be lighter on units (due to units that could alpha strike were more elite based.). But we will have to see.

What ways do orks have to go first?

Dredds - 1 slot, deploy together but then act as single units?

walker and vehicle heavy lists?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I was told by my local GW manager it didn't and refused to listen to any reasoning. Everyone else in the entire store told me I was wrong and that the embarked passengers still suffered -1 to hit. I was furious.

Another point of arguement I had with them.. Do bomb squigs, grit oilers and ammo runts count as models against a vehicle she transport capacity?

A point of advice: Never argue during games, your opponent will always subconsciously argue in his favor since he is in danger of losing model at that very moment. You will rarely get an objective discussion during a game. Just offer to 4+ it, ask the host or just agree with him to resolve the matter as fast as possible.
It might suck for that moment that your opponent and/or host got the rules wrong, but getting into a heated argument instead of killing stuff sucks even more. If you have rules issues, resolve them before or after the game. Next time try talking about open topped before deployment, or have a talk with the GW manager when you're in the store next time. Show him the relevant rules and ask him why he thinks they work differently. Next time he gets called over he might make the right call.

Also, never argue with a group of people. Chances are that one popular person will make a call and everyone else will just agree because of that person's reputation without even bothering with the rules. When you factor in that no one wants to be wrong in front of his buddies, you have little chance to change their opinion. Nothing to be won here but hard feelings.

Good words of advice. I was mad, but only in my head. I would never ruin the game for my opponent by squabbling over rules. We paused the game to analyze for future refernce as everyone was interested. The black shirt just refused to listen to reason. I mean it clearly states they dont get the penalty. He just kept saying "its my store my rules" Thats what got me upset. But me and opponent were cool. Luckily they was lootas inside and they didnt need to move

On the bit about Kommandos, if someone is claiming taking kommandos lowers your number of deployments.. thats just wrong. As MangoMadness pointed out it clearly states "during deployment"

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I mean it clearly states they dont get the penalty.

I have to say, I don't think it's 100% clear- it is going to come down to "what is a modifier?". My read is that both the BW and the passengers get stuck with -1 with HWs for moving (using the open topped rule, that modifier applies to both)- THEN the BW has a special rule that allows it to ignore the modifier. Open topped doesn't confer special rules.

That said, I may be wrong- this is definitely prime day 1 errata material. Good on you for not getting pulled in.

Planning on running 8-10 Nobz. How do you feel about combi-skorchas? They cost as much as another Nob but they overcome the lackluster BS and might be useful in overwatch if you happen to catch a charge. Are they worth it or should I just use the points for another Nob?

Solar Shock wrote:
No Mango I agree.

Cool, I just read it in a few posts and thought i would get clarification, its early days and its easy to not fully understand how things work.

Solar Shock wrote:
I think what people are doing to minimise deployment is;
[list]Deploying 1-2 units inside vehicles - such as the BW, Does this count as a single deployment?

Yes, I wondered about this one as well.
Main Rulebook P183. Right Column in black, 3rd paragraph down
"When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

So you can squeeze 5 drops into 1 with a trukk. 2 x 5 Ork squads + 2 characters

 DaisyWondercow wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I mean it clearly states they dont get the penalty.

I have to say, I don't think it's 100% clear- it is going to come down to "what is a modifier?". My read is that both the BW and the passengers get stuck with -1 with HWs for moving (using the open topped rule, that modifier applies to both)- THEN the BW has a special rule that allows it to ignore the modifier. Open topped doesn't confer special rules.

That said, I may be wrong- this is definitely prime day 1 errata material. Good on you for not getting pulled in.

How I see it:
The passengers suffer the same mods as the BW (per Open Topped).
The BW doesnt suffer the -1 through move and shoot.
Thus the passengers dont suffer the -1 as well.

 MangoMadness wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:
I think what people are doing to minimise deployment is;
[list]Deploying 1-2 units inside vehicles - such as the BW, Does this count as a single deployment?

Yes, I wondered about this one as well.
Main Rulebook P183. Right Column in black, 3rd paragraph down
"When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up."

So you can squeeze 5 drops into 1 with a trukk. 2 x 5 Ork squads + 2 characters

So like you said, maybe by always taking 1 out of the transport (so trukk boyz at 11) you will be able to deploy all your characters in vehicles. As you would then likely have first turn, you can simply disembark the characters (say if it was a KFF mek that you wanted to footslog with kanz), thus you don't lose out, you'll get first turn, your KFF with be out shielding for when its their turn etc...

That could be reasonably viable for reducing deployments. Its obviously dependent on where you need your characters to be, but I feel like as this seems to be quite a choppy edition for orks, getting first turn could be quite important.

 MangoMadness wrote:

 DaisyWondercow wrote:
an immediate lesson learned for list building: minimize your deployment.

In 8th, most of the missions have the first player to finish deploying also go first. In this edition of definitely T2 (sometimes even T1!) charges, this is critical. So <SNIP> run kommandos, get that first turn!

I want to talk about kommandos and deployment as it seems to be inferred that using them reduces your total number of deployments, i would disagree but i would like others opinions.

Kommando entry states "During deployment, you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding instead of placing them on the battlefield"

Lets dissect the sentence
"During Deployment" - pretty obvious, during Deployment as outlined by the scenario.
", you may set up a unit of Kommandos in hiding" - gives a secondary deployment option
"instead of placing them on the battlefield" - the normal option for deployment during 'Deployment'

I see this as still having to use the normal deployment rules (as per scenario) but having a secondary option. This is how i see them being deployed

During Deployment
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork player - I select kommando unit 1 in hiding 'instead of placing them on the battlefield'
Opponent - Deploys Unit
Ork Player - I select kommando unit 2 and place them *here*

I dont see where their alternate placement method means they skips normal deployment, unless there is a rule in the rulebook that i have missed (a possibility as we dont even have the rules yet )

What do you think and why do you think it?

Rereading this, I'd say you're completely right. It makes sense, makes the rules better and more consistent, and would apply to all the new "deepstrike" units. I'm just stuck in the past still!

I'd echo the follow up question, though- do you deploy a transport and then deploy each passenger unit into it?

I've tried min kommandoes and they're not bad cause of free nob, burnas and infiltrate. But it's a rare day they ever get to use this +1 for cover.

They're fine to supplement the front or grab a remote point for just 45 pts. But i'd not expect them to actually tie stuff up on their own. Cause they're likely to be far away from a warboss and loose 1-2 guyz to overwatch and than 1-2 to mellee retaliation, the rest can just run away from ld. And if not, enemy can simply fall back and shoot a couple bolters at them to finish off.

They're still nice for the price.

 DaisyWondercow wrote:


I'd echo the follow up question, though- do you deploy a transport and then deploy each passenger unit into it?

The Transport rules say you declare what units are inside when you set the transport up, so I'd consider the whole mess to be a single drop.