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2017/06/16 02:20:48
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Probably good to pepper in shootas somehwere? Basically two huge warbands with every buff imaginable and a trukk to deploy the 12 characters in perfectly (7 units to deploy) if they have alot of snipers or for shenanigans, weirdboy auto pass jump on cheapest unit turn one after warpath cast on them surround the humies. Two squads clipped to 28 for points. Prob can force aircraft off the board mid game with clever jump and spread. Painboyz fix whichever weirdboy perils the most triple D6 autopass mortal wound smite the big nasty stuff.
Shootas? How many/where?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 02:37:42
2017/06/16 03:32:36
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Um 7 characters in a trukk means NO BUFFS for your boys.....
The weird boys heads will explode casting the jump. Although that's actually a tactic for smite spam but smite can only target the closest enemny model. You might need some anti tank because it's going to be really hard to kill any toughness 8 3+ sv model in any reasonable amount of time.
2017/06/16 03:32:40
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Gun crews are a bit of a headache then. But an upside, albeit an unlikely one, if you have 5 closely placed Mek Guns, you can still fire all 5 even if 20 of your gunners have been squished. They only need 1 Grot each close by.As long as cohesion holds overall. Am I reading that right?
2017/06/16 07:45:59
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
gungo wrote: Um 7 characters in a trukk means NO BUFFS for your boys.....
The weird boys heads will explode casting the jump. Although that's actually a tactic for smite spam but smite can only target the closest enemny model. You might need some anti tank because it's going to be really hard to kill any toughness 8 3+ sv model in any reasonable amount of time.
The transport is to keep his deployment down to 7, instead of like the 14 with all his HQ's. That should potentially give him turn 1. Secondly most of the buffs he needs are only needed either in combat or after having taken damage, so as long as he secures T1 then he can disembark the painboy and KFF. But I see your point. It relies on getting T1. But once you see your opponents list you can basically work out wither you will get T1. so you could always deploy the KFF and painboy outside if you see them getting T1.
Favourite Game: When your Warboss on bike wrecks 3 vehicles simply by HoW - especially when his bike is a custom monowheel.
Cuz05 wrote: Gun crews are a bit of a headache then. But an upside, albeit an unlikely one, if you have 5 closely placed Mek Guns, you can still fire all 5 even if 20 of your gunners have been squished. They only need 1 Grot each close by.As long as cohesion holds overall. Am I reading that right?
Yes; Grot Gunners from a different unit can fire any gun; as you've noted, one different grot is required to operate each gun.
If there are no Grot Gunners in 6", the gun is deactivated - this is important for charging and general movement.
2017/06/16 11:31:24
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Super-Heavy Auxiliary
Stompa - Da Morkinator 977
Three big shootas
Deff kannon
Skorcha
Supa-gatler
Three supa-rokkits
Twin-linked big shoota
Mega-choppa
2017/06/16 11:31:32
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Thats pretty cool, so are Grot Gunners distinct from other Grots or can I keep a normal Gretchin squad behind the big guns to top up the crew as they are killed off?
I'm sure in 3rd edition, which was the last time I played in earnest, you could replace big gun crews in this fashion.
2017/06/16 12:16:37
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Probably good to pepper in shootas somehwere? Basically two huge warbands with every buff imaginable and a trukk to deploy the 12 characters in perfectly (7 units to deploy) if they have alot of snipers or for shenanigans, weirdboy auto pass jump on cheapest unit turn one after warpath cast on them surround the humies. Two squads clipped to 28 for points. Prob can force aircraft off the board mid game with clever jump and spread. Painboyz fix whichever weirdboy perils the most triple D6 autopass mortal wound smite the big nasty stuff.
Shootas? How many/where?
feth shootas. GET STUCK IN WAAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!! This is the greatest list I have ever seen.
2017/06/16 12:36:35
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
flyer bases are like all other bases. Enemy cant come within 1" unless they are assaulting. And they cant assault a flier unless they have the fly rule. Friendly bases cant overlap.
2017/06/16 13:26:59
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
koooaei wrote: Can we combine shootas and choppas in one squad now?
Yes, why you would want to is beyond me, but yes.
Mellee works in a way that you can't always get all the boyz striking - even if you try hard. Especially with longer charges - be it after deepstrike or plain footslogging up to a shooty opponent that's not so eager to close distance. So, basically your backlines are less likely to add something to the mellee fight. But they can still shoot something on the way there. And with higher range of shootas, it's not necesserily the same target you're about to charge. So, in many cases you don't loose mellee punch from having shootas in a squad while getting a bit of ranged advantage.
Another thing is that you sometimes want to go shooty instead of choppy - even with the boyz. And than those shootaboyz will come in handy.
Versatility is also a great thing. You're not 100% as effective as a dedicated squad all the time but factor in the losses that ork footsloggas take every turn anywayz. You can easilly kill off the less useful part of your squad. So, the specialisation becomes less of an issue. Your squad can 'adapt' to the enemy over time. take that tyranids
I think in this case the whole is greater than the sum of parts.
Spoiler:
also i have a ton of shootas and sluggas that usually perform as either one of them, but now i can finally go wysiwyg
It's interesting to figure the optimal proportion of shootas/sluggas.
You know, it reminds me of tercio - a combined unit of pikemen and musketeers. Used to great effect in...16-th century iirc.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 13:49:18
2017/06/16 13:28:54
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
koooaei wrote: Can we combine shootas and choppas in one squad now?
Yes, why you would want to is beyond me, but yes.
"Any Boy may replace his Choppa and Slugga with a Shoota"
Nowhere does it have a restriction on how many or if the unit has to all take the same weapons.
to min max.
Let's say you take a squad of 30 boys odds are ~5-10 will die before you get into close combat.
Secondly odds are you won't get all 30 boys within 1in of whatever you assault.
Soooo take 10 shootas put them in the neck of the blob and as you move advance you can double shot fire with a gun w longer range. On top of the fact you choose casualties. You are likely to get a couple wounds you wouldn't get w 30 choppas. I find a ratio of 20 choppas/10 sluggas work best in demo games. It's not a huge difference just a little min maxing. It's also helpful for overwatch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 13:31:22
2017/06/16 14:46:43
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Super-Heavy Auxiliary
Stompa - Da Morkinator 977
Three big shootas
Deff kannon
Skorcha
Supa-gatler
Three supa-rokkits
Twin-linked big shoota
Mega-choppa
2 Stompas for 1954 points. "No no, Mr. Knights player, you aren't going first today."
2017/06/16 14:57:11
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
2017/06/16 15:25:34
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
10 Nobs w/ Big Choppas and a few Killsaws, Nob w/ Banner, fill up the rest with Ammo Runts. Charge with the wagon first to eat overwatch, runts eat the CC wounds. Should get you close.
2017/06/16 15:42:52
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Super-Heavy Auxiliary
Stompa - Da Morkinator 977
Three big shootas
Deff kannon
Skorcha
Supa-gatler
Three supa-rokkits
Twin-linked big shoota
Mega-choppa
I was very unimpressed bringing a stompa twice. once was against 2 imperial knights and some space marines. the knights were cheaper and wrecked the stompa 2 in 2 turns. in the other storm ravens dances around it blasting it to bits by turn 3. it lacked firepower to do much due to lack of hits, but did dmg in close combat.
I was running battle wagons with the stompa in both games, 19 boyz w/ nob getting out of it after advancing a turn and getting that charge (warboss on a bike rode between the wagons for advance then charge) they did work, wrecked a space marine backfield.
10000 points 7000 6000 5000 5000 2000
2017/06/16 16:06:03
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
10 Nobs w/ Big Choppas and a few Killsaws, Nob w/ Banner, fill up the rest with Ammo Runts. Charge with the wagon first to eat overwatch, runts eat the CC wounds. Should get you close.
Let's say that every nob has a killsaw, and your banner is in range: The knight is going to take 17.77 wounds. Then swing back and statistically kill 4-5 nobs. On the knight players turn he will walk out of combat, and shoot them to death. If any remain he will charge and kill them easily.
If they all have big choppas you are only talking 8.33 wounds to the knight statistically.
So that one doesn't really work. I mean potentially the BW with a Deffrolla could finish the knight, but it's still pretty iffy.
2017/06/16 16:22:24
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
Starting off I equip the Wagon with a Deff Rolla for 19pts, inside the wagon I have 8 Nobz with PKs and a Weirdboy with Warpath.
BW drops off the nobz and weirdboy and then moves as close to the knight as it wants, the nobz disembark 3, more forward there 5ins to get a good charge range and shoot the knight for gits and shiggles. This won't do anything but on the off chance it gets a wound it will annoy my opponent
Psychic phase my Weirdboy casts Warpath on my nobz because hes cool like that. With that done CHARGE!
Battlewagon eats the overwatch without a problem and rams the knight with 6 S8 -2AP attacks hitting on 2s for a grand total of 4 hits. Those will wound on 4s so 2 wounds at -2 AP the knight saves them on 5s so chances are both go through. NOBZ ATTACK! 8 Nobz with warpath have 32 Attacks base, hitting on 4s means 16 hits, wounding on 3s means about 11 wounds. Against a 6+ Save thats 9 wounds that go through, D3 damage averages 2 damage meaning 18 wounds +2 from Battlewagon and the Knight is down to 4wounds Weirdboy swings next because at this point he is getting annoyed at this stupid robot. 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound 50/50 chance to go through not concerned. lets keep it at 4 wounds remaining. Knight gets to swing back, using his feet he gets 12 attacks hitting on 5s so 4 hits, wounding on 2 means 3 wounds that do D3 Damage each, so averages 2 and you get 6 wounds, or put it another way, enough to kill 3 nobz on average. they would get a 6+ armor save though....
Knights turn he is going to run away 6in because hes beat up now, hes going to turn and shoot my orky poos Thermal Cannon goes to D6 because GW loves them some Imperial bull Gak. BUT average roll is 3.5 so lets say 4 shots, hitting on 5s because while in CC one of the Nobz punched the Knight in the balls and it hasn't recovered yet so averaging only 1 hit. 1 more dead ork. Heavy stubber does 1 hit, 50% chance to wound and nobz have 50% chance to save against it so lets call it nothing. And then the Knight CHARGES! because as mentioned before YOLO! Knight uses his big stupid feet that our Stompa does't get for some reason (FETH YOU GW) and does another 12 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds go through and another 3 dead ork poos. At this point my orkz swing back with 1 Nob alive for 4 CC Attacks hitting on 4s so 2 hits, wounding on 3s so 2 hits, averaging D2 damage the Nobz win, the knight explodes and kills everyone and Mork and Gork are Happy and Bork is still trying to put his boots on.
Grand total of this ridiculous exercise minus the cost of the battlewagon because everyone has to take it is.......
19pts for Deff Rolla 62pts for Weirdboy 336pts for Nobz w/PKs.
Total = 417pts. At the end you will be left with a slightly fire damaged Battlewagon, 1 Confused nob and a Weirdboy perched happily atop the smoking remains of a Knight Titan, drawing crude and imaginatively insulting slurs on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 17:33:19
SemperMortis wrote: At the end you will be left with a slightly fire damaged Battlewagon, 1 Confused nob and a Weirdboy perched happyily atop the smoking remains of a Knight Titan, drawing crude and imaginatively insulting slurs on it.
tag8833 wrote: Challenge. Fill a battlewagon with something other than Tankbustas that will statistically kill a knight. The winner is the person who does it for the fewest points.
Stipulation, the Knight gets to overwatch and swing in CC as normal.
Starting off I equip the Wagon with a Deff Rolla for 19pts, inside the wagon I have 8 Nobz with PKs and a Weirdboy with Warpath.
BW drops off the nobz and weirdboy and then moves as close to the knight as it wants, the nobz disembark 3, more forward there 5ins to get a good charge range and shoot the knight for gits and shiggles. This won't do anything but on the off chance it gets a wound it will annoy my opponent
Psychic phase my Weirdboy casts Warpath on my nobz because hes cool like that. With that done CHARGE!
Battlewagon eats the overwatch without a problem and rams the knight with 6 S8 -2AP attacks hitting on 2s for a grand total of 4 hits. Those will wound on 4s so 2 wounds at -2 AP the knight saves them on 5s so chances are both go through. NOBZ ATTACK! 8 Nobz with warpath have 32 Attacks base, hitting on 4s means 16 hits, wounding on 3s means about 11 wounds. Against a 6+ Save thats 9 wounds that go through, D3 damage averages 2 damage meaning 18 wounds +2 from Battlewagon and the Knight is down to 4wounds Weirdboy swings next because at this point he is getting annoyed at this stupid robot. 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound 50/50 chance to go through not concerned. lets keep it at 4 wounds remaining. Knight gets to swing back, using his feet he gets 12 attacks hitting on 5s so 4 hits, wounding on 2 means 3 wounds that do D3 Damage each, so averages 2 and you get 6 wounds, or put it another way, enough to kill 3 nobz on average. they would get a 6+ armor save though....
Knights turn he is going to run away 6in because hes beat up now, hes going to turn and shoot my orky poos Thermal Cannon goes to D6 because GW loves them some Imperial bull Gak. BUT average roll is 3.5 so lets say 4 shots, hitting on 5s because while in CC one of the Nobz punched the Knight in the balls and it hasn't recovered yet so averaging only 1 hit. 1 more dead ork. Heavy stubber does 1 hit, 50% chance to wound and nobz have 50% chance to save against it so lets call it nothing. And then the Knight CHARGES! because as mentioned before YOLO! Knight uses his big stupid feet that our Stompa does't get for some reason (FETH YOU GW) and does another 12 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds go through and another 3 dead ork poos. At this point my orkz swing back with 1 Nob alive for 4 CC Attacks hitting on 4s so 2 hits, wounding on 3s so 2 hits, averaging D2 damage the Nobz win, the knight explodes and kills everyone and Mork and Gork are Happy and Bork is still trying to put his boots on.
Grand total of this ridiculous exercise minus the cost of the battlewagon because everyone has to take it is.......
19pts for Deff Rolla
62pts for Weirdboy
336pts for Nobz w/PKs.
Total = 417pts. At the end you will be left with a slightly fire damaged Battlewagon, 1 Confused nob and a Weirdboy perched happily atop the smoking remains of a Knight Titan, drawing crude and imaginatively insulting slurs on it.
Pretty glorious. I think, however, you can get the same wound result swapping 4 nobz and the weirdboy for Ghazz and save yourself 15 points?
Fast math, half as many nobz means only 9 wounds, not 18 (still getting the +1 attack, this time from Ghaz aura). The boss himself has 6 attacks, hits on 2's (5), wounds on 3s (3), 6+ save (still 3), with 3 damage each (9) gets you back up to 18.
19pts for Deff Rolla
215 for Ghazzy
168 for 4 Nobz with PKs.
Total = 402pts. Or swap the pks to killsaws, 414 and the knight gets no save vs the nobz?
I think the issue is outside of Nobz, there's really no other options. MANZ cost more and aren't really better for the job. Lootaz, your dice would need to be scorching hot. Maybe a full KMK battery, but I wouldn't want to get into a shooting match with a Crusader.
2017/06/16 18:17:29
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Regarding the stomps I'm waiting for the kustom stompa list from FW. Potential invul save and 2 additional weapons can potentially make the stompa better. I'm not sure if gaze of gork or lifts droppawill be useful w ork bs. But the belly gun should
be decent
2017/06/16 18:19:32
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
JohnU wrote: I think the issue is outside of Nobz, there's really no other options. MANZ cost more and aren't really better for the job. Lootaz, your dice would need to be scorching hot. Maybe a full KMK battery, but I wouldn't want to get into a shooting match with a Crusader.
Yeah, a full battery of 6 KMKs is putting out maybe 10 damage onto a knight/turn? It's not crazy expensive, should be 282 points.
Equivalent points in Tankbustas, call it 17 total, would be.... like 9 damage per turn? So in pure damage per points, KMKs are doing a little better, and are probably more survivable too. But yeah, those super heavies just feel like raid bosses....
EDIT: math was off, thought kmks were D6, they're D3. Much worse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 20:03:38
Ghaz with a +1 attack warlord trait will deal 10 wounds to a knight on his own. I'm pretty sure that's one of the best damage-per-point ratio you can get with orks vs knights. And he further buffs stuff around him. Including a wagon!
7000 
