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xlDuke wrote:
Thanks fe50k and Blackie, so that's the generally agreed understand of the rule then? I'm finding the rules are generally easy to understand but the wording throws me off slightly on some of them, re-rolls and modifiers as well - probably because I haven't had a chance to see it occur on the table yet. I'll probably run a Big Mek on Warbike with KFF alongside my mech lists then because he'll be able to cover a couple of Battlewagons and Trukks fairly easily for the first turn or two. Much obliged!

Correct and if someone questions you about it you can direct them to the new FAQ that defines the different between within and wholey within an AoE.

So mek gunz still worth taking? I was thinking of buying a box of mek guns and canibalizing a trukk or two.. (seeing as how we cant field lots of trukks anymore ) to make a battery of the FUN bubblechukkas. Half amazing. Half gak. ALL fun

fe40k wrote:Are Grot Tanks/Megatanks better than straight Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannons? The Grot tanks with KMB have 2 less wounds (and that's excluding the Grot Gunners), but are a lot more mobile - that said, the KMK has an extra 12" range and d6 shots, so... The Megatank has 3 more wounds and 1 more toughness; with a 17% chance of doing nothing in the shooting phase, and a 17% chance of getting +1BS. However, the tanks in general are a 4+ save as opposed to a 5+ save, which is something small arms fire (but nothing to the anti-vehicle guns that'll be targeted their way). The tanks are also a little cheaper pointswise, which is nice too.
Overall, the Mek Gun batteries appear far more survivable, as each gun is a seperate unit for the shooting phase, it can lead Devastator squads and such to underkill or overkill single Mek Guns. That said, they feed a LOT more kill points since each Gun+Grot squad counts as two squads, therefore two kill points.
But, d6 shots is super nice. Is it better than +1Sv and general mobility? I suppose it really depends on the rest of the army, the opponent, and the terrain in general.
I think MG:KMK batteries > Grot Tanks generally, but Megatanks may be a decent alternative.

Interesting comparison. The difference is though that grot tanks are FA. So in regards to running a walker list, im talking about bringing kanz and grot tanks.
I think your comparison is still a worthwhile one, as you are right, Mek gunz for their points are far more shooty (in ork terms of 'shooty'). Mek gunz are better as static objective holders who simply fire and forget each turn, no real reason to move. Grot tanks are more mobile, can charge and take objectives further out. As for the mega-tank, im pretty sure if i rolled a 1 i'd be re-rolling.

I think if I was taking gunz as a heavy choice, I would be going straight for the Big gunz. The lobba and Kannon still seem so tasty. The Kannon has D6 damage when your firing at vehicles and still has an anti-infantry option, so for your bang for buck your always going to have a decent target choice. The lobba has the BLOS firing rule still, so is great for putting on a BLOS objective and simply collecting points while you rain terror at 5D6 for a full 5 unit. I think for their points they simply still outperform mek gunz, have a way smaller footprint (good and bad i suppose).

I think all of them need some bubblewrap. at 90 points im simply thinking of building a line of grots, as you can cover quite a bit ofd board space. so any reserve arrivals have to land well out of range of your gunz.

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:So mek gunz still worth taking? I was thinking of buying a box of mek guns and canibalizing a trukk or two.. (seeing as how we cant field lots of trukks anymore ) to make a battery of the FUN bubblechukkas. Half amazing. Half gak. ALL fun

I bought one box and just built 3 out of it using random bits and bobs, works quite well. I think 4 bubblechukkas would be hilarious, especially on the games where you just roll like a god! Not sure how effective it would be, but would be a hilarious mind game, as your opponent would spend plenty of time picking dice for his own death

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
So mek gunz still worth taking? I was thinking of buying a box of mek guns and canibalizing a trukk or two.. (seeing as how we cant field lots of trukks anymore ) to make a battery of the FUN bubblechukkas. Half amazing. Half gak. ALL fun

I have tried a couple of KMK and some kannons, they are not great but they can sometime be a bit of a shock for your opponent. NEVER take them unless you are certain that you will not play with kill points or the "big guns never tire" mission.

Mek gun/big guns only really depend on missions. They still only count as one unit for deployment. So really it depends what type of game you are playing. Itc and nova missions will have some kill point element is the past is any indication but it usually is not the primary mission and only counts for a few points. I don't think it will matter once actual tournament missions are created. The basic rule book missions were never balanced or Ork friendly. They are simple so that someone can easily understand and play them quickly.

Bigguns/mek guns are great home objective campers and surprisingly durable. They are fairly inexpensive and provide the rare long range shooting orks lack.

How are you boyz feeling about Orks ability to handle mech lists now? I have been having some trouble with them. I feel like our ability to kill vehicles has gotten worse and vehicles have gotten much tougher as well making it very hard to pop things now. Russes were giving me a fit the other day and I can't ignore them.

 matphat wrote:
How are you boyz feeling about Orks ability to handle mech lists now? I have been having some trouble with them. I feel like our ability to kill vehicles has gotten worse and vehicles have gotten much tougher as well making it very hard to pop things now. Russes were giving me a fit the other day and I can't ignore them.

It seems like T8 vehicles are tough for orks to deal with. T7 or lower are not a huge deal as we can wound them on a 5+ with high rates of attacks, which isn't great, but does ok, Lootas and Tank bustas are also wounding better at T7 and below.. T8 makes this wounds on 6+ and also means that things like Lootas are wounding on a 5+, and Tank bustas (or other rokkits) on a 4+. It is also an issue for BC nobs.

I think vehicle killing might be best done by things like weirdboyz with smite, small PK/Killsaw meganob squads (S10 helps)

 matphat wrote:
How are you boyz feeling about Orks ability to handle mech lists now? I have been having some trouble with them. I feel like our ability to kill vehicles has gotten worse and vehicles have gotten much tougher as well making it very hard to pop things now. Russes were giving me a fit the other day and I can't ignore them.

Heavy mech lists feels like a really bad match up. Even tankbustas are going to struggle against T8 vehicles. Our best bet seems infantry spam and hold objectives/tie vehicles down in CC rather than actually killing them. Have yet to field any of the big gunz/mek gunz, but so far Lootas and Tankbustas are underwhelming vs any heavy armor.

 matphat wrote:
How are you boyz feeling about Orks ability to handle mech lists now? I have been having some trouble with them. I feel like our ability to kill vehicles has gotten worse and vehicles have gotten much tougher as well making it very hard to pop things now. Russes were giving me a fit the other day and I can't ignore them.

We have options to plink off wounds off vehicles with several units but honestly nothing I've played with does it better then a powerklaw/killsaw boss. Outside of that tankbustas do decent vs vehicles as well as properly screened rokkits.
Ghaz was an all star for me on an IG tank line as he just ran through 1 tank after the next. Zhardsnark is just as powerful. Warboss/nobs on bikes w kombi rokkit can fire all his weapons at once. Maddoc is great w his klaw as well and only 5pts more than a painboy w grot. Dual killsaw mega nobs tear open vehicles especially if you can buff them w ghaz or warpath or a banner nob. Overloaded smite spam w d6 mortal wounds.

Right now my ideal list is something like
Zhardsnark
Buzzgrob (if kff is included in his cost) if not bigmek w kff and kombi rokkit on bike
90 boys (2 choppa x30(w 2 big choppas), 1 shoota x30)
2 wierdboys (warpath and dajump)
Maddoc
Mekadread w kff and rokkit bombs
10 tankbusta 2 bomb squigs w trukk w rokkit and wrecking ball
Ghazskull (or warboss on bike w Pk and kombi rokkit)
Zagstrukk plus 4x 5 stormboys (nob w big choppa) (or take more boy squads)

That's enough bodies to still horde up and enough of kff bubbles to protect vs shooty lists. And enough rokkits(11-13) and klaws (5)and big choppas (7) to deal with vehicles and high toughness models.
I'm not sold on ghaz over a warboss w Pk and kombi rokkit on bike. The bike is much better at getting the Pk to where it needs to be.
Zagstrukk and the stormboys also failed to impress a lot and I feel more boyz would be better but I don't have more then 100 boys right now. And I would need to buy movement trays for that many boys. And I kinda feel stormboys can still counter a lot of fly keyword units (not stormravens)

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, to be covered a single model must be under the bubble at least with a tiny part of its base or body/hull (if it donesn't have a base), but every model in the unit has to be within 9''. That' why the KFF is not great to shield boyz, but it can be quite helpful if it gives the invuln to vehicles and walkers.

Hi
Been reading for some years both in the 7th edition thread and this thread. But just joined to clarify this question
I wonder where i can read that it's this way the KFF rule works. I read entirely whittin as that the whole modell has to be inside the bubble. And for me wholly witthin and entirely whittin is the same thing. Thanks in advance

 Slaktur wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Yeah, to be covered a single model must be under the bubble at least with a tiny part of its base or body/hull (if it donesn't have a base), but every model in the unit has to be within 9''. That' why the KFF is not great to shield boyz, but it can be quite helpful if it gives the invuln to vehicles and walkers.

Hi
Been reading for some years both in the 7th edition thread and this thread. But just joined to clarify this question
I wonder where i can read that it's this way the KFF rule works. I read entirely whittin as that the whole modell has to be inside the bubble. And for me wholly witthin and entirely whittin is the same thing. Thanks in advance

From the FAQ:

‘If this model is equipped with a kustom force field,
friendly Ork units that are entirely within 9" have a 5+
invulnerable save against ranged weapons.’

And also relevant:

Q. Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A. If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.

It says the entire unit must be within 9 inches, not that the entire unit must be wholly within 9 inches. A few examples: a battlewagon is a unit of 1 battlewagon. If any part of the wagon is within 9 inches, the entire unit is within the aura. A unit of 30 boyzs: 29 are wholly within and 1 is partially within the bubble, the entire unit is still within 9 inches of the KFF. That's my reading of it anyhow.

 Slaktur wrote:


Hi
Been reading for some years both in the 7th edition thread and this thread. But just joined to clarify this question
I wonder where i can read that it's this way the KFF rule works. I read entirely whittin as that the whole modell has to be inside the bubble. And for me wholly witthin and entirely whittin is the same thing. Thanks in advance

A unit can be entirely within a measured area even if the individual models arent entirely withing the area.

If all models needed to be entirely within the rule would have to say so; along the lines of : "All models in the unit must be entirely within 9 inches to benefit from this effect" rather than "Units must be entirely within to benefit form this effect"

 davou wrote:

A unit can be entirely within a measured area even if the individual models arent entirely withing the area.

I don't think that's correct.

 koooaei wrote:

 davou wrote:

A unit can be entirely within a measured area even if the individual models arent entirely withing the area.

I don't think that's correct.

From the faq

For example, units gain the benefit of cover if every
model in the unit is either on or within terrain. So long
as all the models in that unit are either on or partially
within the terrain, they gain the benefit of cover.

From the rules

If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain
feature, add 1 to its models’ saving throws
against shooting attacks to represent the
cover received from the terrain (invulnerable
saves are unaffected). Units gain no benefit
from cover in the Fight phase (pg 182).

They clarified wholly within and within but not entirely within

 Cuz05 wrote:
They clarified wholly within and within but not entirely within

that's just pedantic you want them to include a dictionary of all words used in the rules at the back of the book as an index?

en·tire·ly
ənˈtī(ə)rlē/Submit
adverb
completely (often used for emphasis).
"the juries were made up entirely of men"
synonyms: absolutely, completely, totally, wholly, utterly, quite; altogether, in every respect, thoroughly, downright, one hundred percent
"that's entirely out of the question"

Entirely is defined of the unit NOT the model.

gungo wrote:
Entirely is defined of the unit NOT the model.

That's the key. It's not the entire model, the entire unit. So if 29 boyz are completely covered but in boy is only 1/4 covered...the entire unit is within the 9". Battlewagon is a unit of one. So if it's partially covered it's in. This isn't rocket science.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

gungo wrote:
Entirely is defined of the unit NOT the model.

That's the key. It's not the entire model, the entire unit. So if 29 boyz are completely covered but in boy is only 1/4 covered...the entire unit is within the 9". Battlewagon is a unit of one. So if it's partially covered it's in. This isn't rocket science.

It's not rocket science man but it's something that makes a very big difference in game and I don't want to screw my buddies over by claiming a save I shouldn't have. I greatly appreciate those that civilly advised the correct way of playing.

Thanks alot for the answers. Im convinced now that you guys that says i only need to touch the battlewagon with the KFF is right. Didn't notice that it says entirely whitin on craters and woods rules, and with the help from the faq it's all clear. Now i might even dare to use the Big Mek, was worried that i will never manage to get all the things i wanted inside the bubble.

I was joking, hence the

I do in fact, know what entirely means, thank you.

Entirely means wholly...

So the unit needs to be entirely (wholly) within 9".

Thankfully, I'm sport enough to roll with whatever interpretation my opponent desires.

Just pointing out.

‘After the battlefield has been created, the Defender
sets up their army wholly within their deployment zone.
The Attacker then sets up their army wholly within their
deployment zone.’

By your logic you can set your battlewagon's hull straight into no-man's land just touching the edge of your deployment zone.

That is.....pretty sound logic


Awesome. Another unit that is almost entirely pointless to take.

you just have to keep them reeeeally close. And run a bike big mek. Or just save the points and get another transport.

Precisely, I think it remains a little unclear. Either way, the KFF remains useful if embarked, just as in 7th. Particularly if embarked with smaller units that can benefit when dumped out. I'm not sure I even like deploying and moving the KFF and vehicles in such a fashion that multiple vehicles will benefit from it. My 1 KFF tends to sit in his wagon as long as is practical.

How do you guys feel about Warpath verses Da Jump? Gonna be adding a Weirdboy to my roster soon.

Personally I think I'm going to go with Warpath. Da Jump seems really powerful, but you have to succeed a charge in addition to casting the power for it to work.

Warpath seems like a simple and straight forward buff spell that could be quite handy to put on a large force of boyz or a nobz squad.

Why not both?

Da Jump is really about options. Drop a squad just outside 9" and try for the charge, drop tankbustas at 18" and unload on something, drop 30 boys/grots on an objective. There's lots of different things you can do.

But really:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not both?

 koooaei wrote:
Just pointing out.

‘After the battlefield has been created, the Defender
sets up their army wholly within their deployment zone.
The Attacker then sets up their army wholly within their
deployment zone.’

By your logic you can set your battlewagon's hull straight into no-man's land just touching the edge of your deployment zone.

Spoiler:

Q. Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’
and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A. If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly
within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is
within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so
long as any part of the unit/model is within.

That's a damn good point; I reverse my opinion on the issue.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
How do you guys feel about Warpath verses Da Jump? Gonna be adding a Weirdboy to my roster soon.

Personally I think I'm going to go with Warpath. Da Jump seems really powerful, but you have to succeed a charge in addition to casting the power for it to work.

Warpath seems like a simple and straight forward buff spell that could be quite handy to put on a large force of boyz or a nobz squad.

Yet to use Warpath - having too much fun with Da Jump.

Although I guess at 1000 pts, two Weirdboyz and 2x30 Boyz is pretty fun (especially when you've also got 2x30 Stormboyz basically trapping the enemy between them and Da Jump).