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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Question:

So far ive only played powerlevel since the new point system drives me nuts. When upgrading a unit of Boyz to have a Nob, how do you price that? Do you just cut a boy off (-6pts) and add a Nob? (+17pts)

The boss nob is free.

Unit leaders always cost the same as a regular member of that unit. It's even spelled out as a rule in the back of the index somewhere.

So basically, the boss nob is free.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Question:

So far ive only played powerlevel since the new point system drives me nuts. When upgrading a unit of Boyz to have a Nob, how do you price that? Do you just cut a boy off (-6pts) and add a Nob? (+17pts)

Boss Nobz in boyz squads are free upgrades.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Question:

So far ive only played powerlevel since the new point system drives me nuts. When upgrading a unit of Boyz to have a Nob, how do you price that? Do you just cut a boy off (-6pts) and add a Nob? (+17pts)

No, sergeants and their equivalents are the same cost as an individual member for any squad (e.g. Boyz Boss Nob is 6 pts, Stormboyz boss nob is 8pts, Kommandos Boss Nob is 9 pts etc etc)

EDIT: Tag team ninja'd.

 Hades wrote:
Don't worry when our codex comes out it will be full of nerfs for footslogging and no buffs for anything else. Because buffs are only for Marines and we're filthy xenos

I have literally no doubt about this after 2 editions now.

No invulnerable saves, FNP cut in half, KFF neutered, 1 inch off movement range; he'll, the nerfs are already right there, in the index.

Considering the smorgasbord in the SM dex...free relics, double firepower on TL weapons, dirt cheap stormshields and power weapons, huge array of infantry weapons, B.S. 3 moving heavy weapons, heavy 6 assault cannons...

Cut that by at least 1/4 and that's the amount of changes/perks that will be in the codec compared to the index. Maybe if were lucky they'll give us 3 points off on power klaws and a few questionable warlord traits.

Also ninjad.

 dameanone wrote:
Points wise it seems the Kill Tanks are decent, Mek w/ KFF inside or big mek on bike with KFF outside to repair?

My experience so far: Even a Big Mek on foot can keep up with the tanks if you play more defensive / play shooty tanks. (If you REALLY need to get some extra points in your list.)
In every case i would place the Mek outside / take the bike Mek to repair the vehicle and shield additional stuff.
Since he can`t be picked as target and the tank will block LOS most of the time anyway he should be safe.

And that 9" bubble is really good.
I don`t get all the negative oppinions on the KFF, was worth it`s point every time.
You can easy shield 1-2 blobs of boyz and some tanks.

Anyone thought of having a Warboss with a Power Klaw and Big Choppa?

I desperately miss my ability to hit on 2s when using a Power Klaw and S8 seems decent enough against SM.

Sweet, thanksf

Lets pretend all this is shooting at a t6 vehicle with 4+, some rough and terrible math;
-Devs with Plasma Cannon do 3.55556 Damage, double it (7)for overcharged weapons
-Same with the Hellblaster squad
-Predator does 3.55556 with just it's autocannon, this is without firing the heavy bolters. (+1)
-It took 3x3 heavy weapon teams to get around the same points as others, they did 8 Damage to target.
-the Leman Russ I didn't bother with math for, shouldn't have included it
-the Tau Broadside did 3.55556 before adding the smart missiles (.666667)
-Exocrine did 4 Damage
-Lootas did 5.92

As incomplete and bad as this is, a few things I notice;
-Devs are cheaper, have a better weapon, a better save, and did more damage, just from a little closer.
-Heavy weapon teams have nearly the same survivability and weapon profile as Lootas, except the better BS gives them more output for same points
-The others can't really compare because they are not enough like the devs, Lootas, Heavy Weapon teams.

In short, Lootas do less damage then Devs and HWTs. They make up for this with an increase in range vs devs, who also have a better save for cheaper. Lootas, should they end up in CC, would have more attacks then Devs. Lootas do less damage at range then HWTs, but are much better in CC.

Mathhammer in a vacuum->Lootas should be holding down the trigger while moving to help make their cost back in CC, it is the only way.
Tacticshammer-> If you have Lootas on the table you need a squad of Stormboyz to tie up any shooting unit that would outperform your Lootas.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Anyone thought of having a Warboss with a Power Klaw and Big Choppa?

I desperately miss my ability to hit on 2s when using a Power Klaw and S8 seems decent enough against SM.

Depends on Meta, I guess. I like to call out "strength 12" against the big stuff, lol.

We don't have much that wounds T8 well. Plain ol choppa boyz do pretty well against marines, so you most likely don't need your boss on them.

SemperMortis wrote:

Battalion Detachment: 994pts
HQ:
Ghaz
Big Mek KFF

ELITES:
Mad Dok
Kommandos (Nob, 2 Burnas)

TROOPS:
Boyz x 30 (Nob/BC)
Boyz x 30 (Nob/BC)
Boyz x 30 (Nob/BC)

Vanguard Detachment: 322pts
HQ:
Weirdboy (Da Jump)

ELITES:
Kommandos (Nob, 2 Burnas)
Kommandos (Nob, 2 Burnas)
Kommandos (Nob, 2 Burnas)
Kommandos (Nob, 2 Burnas)
Kommandos (Nob, 2 Burnas)
Kommandos (Nob, 2 Burnas)

Outrider Detachment:
HQ:
Weirdboy (Warpath)

FAST ATTACK: 674pts
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Deff Kopta x 1 (Twin Big Shootas/Bomb)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob BC)
Stormboyz x20 (W/Nob BC)

Results time.

So Game 1 I went against an Eldar Player who brought a fairly diverse list, Wraithguard, Scorpions, Eldrad, Khaine, Maug, Fire Dragons, Guardians, and a few other things. It was a complete rout. I hate Eldar and despised them all through 7th but now they are a complete pushover. I scored a Crushing victory, 16 to 0. We were only able to finish my 3rd turn because of how slow my list played but by that point he had the Fire prism about to be assaulted, Khaine and that was about it. What happened was Turn 1 I advanced all my units, had all my reserves pop and appear in front of him/behind him and assault him, almost all got in, I also had a Unit of 30 boyz "Da Jump" and successfully assaulted a unit of Snipers and his warlord in a ruins. My Stormboyz held down an entire flank for the first turn and by the end of the 2nd the game was basically over. Ghaz didn't even get into CC.

Game 2 I was against a Smurf player who was playing gunline with a bunch of tanks and primaris Marines backed up by Papasmurf, Standard bearer and a Apothocary to bring back dead models. This was the absolute closest game I have ever played, I had all my reserves appear turn 2 except 1 unit of Kommandos I kept in reserve to cap an objective at the end of the game, this was a mistake, I should have kept 3 units in reserve for this purpose but I was desperate to tie up some of his ranged dakka. Papa Smurf turned good dakka into ridiculous dakka, my opponent got first blood because I killed his model and the stupid standard Bearer trick killed my deff Kopta :( I was finally able to advance down the field enough to get Ghaz into CC and papa smurf swept in to challenge him, Ghaz and 15 Boyz with a Nob managed to kill papasmurf, he got back up just in time for my weirdboy to blast him with smite. Last turn I made my kommando unit appear and grab on objective, i held another objective with stormboyz and had 30+ models sitting on another objective that he was contesting with about 3 of his Marines.....guess what? New Space Marine rule is that he always caps objectives even if I am closer and more numerous then him because reasons. It went from a minor victory for me to a Tie :(

Game 3 was a slaughter, I went against a Chaos player who surrendered turn 3 after I had killed his heavy support and he had (Both of us actually) forgotten to deep strike his obliterators and terminators. Crushing Victory.

I finished 3rd overall in the tournament, 1st place went to Demon smite spam, 2nd place went to a Marine player of indeterminate chapter (I Honestly can't remember).


After action report:

Kommandos: are GREAT late game objective grabbers, In tournament play I intend to do that more often then bringing them in as distraction units. They absolutely suck in every other way though. They aren't numerous enough to really threaten anything, they lack any kind of durability, and aren't terribly reliable in getting into CC with that 9in charge.

Deff Koptas: only managed to drop 2 bombs in 3 games between 4 koptas, They drew fire like a FNG. Worse, with 4+ armor they tended to die a lot unless I hid them in cover and then they weren't doing there jobs. Also, I am convinced that Big shootas are the way to go right now with them, Rokkitz are better but not worth the points cost. I would have used KMBs but I didn't want to kill myself.

Boyz: Work horses again, literally took out wounds on Papa Smurf, Eldrad, Demon princes, I mean they literally have to do everything because they are our best unit

Stormboyz: Lackluster, they need a CC boost more then anything. I loved the increase in movement but I wish they had better CC abilities. 3 Primaris assault Marines wiped out a unit of 20 almost single handed. I can see where bringing more would be more beneficial but I can also see where they stink and need more staying power and more hitting power.

Ghaz: Beat stick. Buffed units, killed units, drew fire, kept boyz in the fight. God of War, he is an auto-include.

Mad Dok: I used him to great success healing my characters and ripping apart units that got to close to me. He earned his points back on 6+ FNPs but only because for the 1st turn or 2 he was surrounded by 90 boyz. If you aren't playing a horde spam then don't take a Dok.

Weirdboyz: Still amazing. Killed Papa Smurf, stripped wounds off units, buffed boyz. Auto-include

Big Mek with KFF: he did alright, utterly useless except as a giant mobile walking bubble. He may have earned his points back but again, only for the same reason as the Painboyz would have.

OVERALL: This list is competitive but so slow and boring to play. Constantly measuring and ensuring those boyz are in the buff zone became a massive annoyance. the only thing worse then my movement phase was the Smurfs shooting phase, rerolling literally everything.

Nice job.

Sounds like a painboy (in addition to Mad Doc) might have been more convenient than the KFF mek. In the tournament, were there any times where Mad Doc wanted to cover two units but couldn't?

ETA: You didn't seem to face any flyers. Maybe the koptas & stormboyz would have found more use against a flyer list?

I did not know that Space Marines can capture objectives just for being Space Marines.

Sounds like a bunch of BS your opponent made up just to not lose.

Good job all the same, sucks that the list was boring to play with.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I did not know that Space Marines can capture objectives just for being Space Marines.

Sounds like a bunch of BS your opponent made up just to not lose.

Good job all the same, sucks that the list was boring to play with.

Yep, new rule in the SM codex. Their infantry gain ObSec.

Also in regards to the flyer. My 1st opponent brought an eldar flyer...Stormboyz were useless against it. Want to know why? THEY CANT CATCH IT! Something I never thought about in planning lists against flyers, flyers are so fast that they basically zoom around the board ignoring your stormboyz.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I did not know that Space Marines can capture objectives just for being Space Marines.

Sounds like a bunch of BS your opponent made up just to not lose.

Good job all the same, sucks that the list was boring to play with.

The SM obsec rule is for Troops only.

Just ordered my first Orks off ebay, going for a bit fluffy mad max themed list (every ork has a vehicle to ride or drive)

To start I was going to do 2 battlewagons w/ 20 slugga boyz each, 2 trukks, one with 10 lootas/spannas and the other with 10 tankbustas, and a smattering of warbuggies, wartrakks, bikers. My first instinct is a boss and mek on bikes but I don't know how good the other units are (like weirdboy). I'm thinkin a dakkajet or burna bomber would make a nice finish.

I know I said fluffy, but I would still like win games here and there, and not off the enemy just having awful luck/no strategy. Is a list like mine even remotely viable? All I know this ed is that the tankbustas are supposed to be really good for their cost, and 30 boyz blobs are good too but the wagon only holds 20...

Finally, as a crons player, my eyes are glazing over at all the 5+ BS. Gun options barely seem worth taking other than the kombi flamer on the boss/mek/nobz

How do you guyz max CP? On one hand, geting a lot of CP is really benefical. On the other it almost certainly forces you to go second. Also, footsloggers usually want larger squads of infantry. I guess, there's nothing bad in taking an extra 3*10 squads of boyz instead of big gunz or koptas.

 koooaei wrote:
How do you guyz max CP? On one hand, geting a lot of CP is really benefical. On the other it almost certainly forces you to go second. Also, footsloggers usually want larger squads of infantry. I guess, there's nothing bad in taking an extra 3*10 squads of boyz instead of big gunz or koptas.

I use the brigade with BWs to group units. Orks are one of the few races that love 6 units of base troops, so why not?

Between Kommandos, Stormboyz and big/mek gunz it's easy to fill up the other slots.

I have been playtesting 3 squads of 5 Tank Bustas in a Battle Wagon with 5 bomb squigs. bonus for having small squads is you can shoot 3 squigs and throw 3 grenades in one turn if close enough. might seem like a small difference but it makes them very deadly.

I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz. There seems to be a couple major options that come to mind -

Setup A - 235pts
Boss Zagstruk
3 Squads of 5 Stormboyz, each with a boss nob + big choppa

Setup 2 - 145pts
a Squad of 15 Stormboyz, with a boss nob + powerklaw


The reason I picked these particular options is because they put the same amount of bodies on the table (though the first includes a character as well). Option A is set up as small squads because of Zagstruk's ability to let them pass morale tests, so the small squads is more of an advantage. However, it is more expensive and not sure if it is worth it.

I'm not really sure if the Big Choppa or Powerklaw is more useful on stormboyz though. It is far too expensive on the 3 small units to take 3 powerklaws, and Zagstruk does already have power-feet...

Any thoughts? What's the typical ideal stormboy loadout?

Niiru wrote:
I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz

I don't usually bother with less than 20 (unless padding Brigade slots), but after the last couple games I've had, I may not even bother with squads that small anymore. I need the bodies as screens or to play aggressively and I've been finding my 30 man squads to be around the ~10ish boy mark when I really need them and they can still put in some work at that size.

This is one of the few places I like PKs over BCs, but I wouldn't bother on a smaller squad, it'll just get shot to pieces.

I ran 20 Stormboyz with a Nob/BC it was a bit underwhelming but it did scare my opponent and keep him from unloading dakka on my Boyz squads.

Niiru wrote:
I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz. Any thoughts? What's the typical ideal stormboy loadout?

I have been running mine as full 30 man squads. I have 2 squads so 60 and will start work on a 3rd. They have been performing well. Not as punchy as 20+ boys but they are very fast and still can kill stuff or tie it down till you get someone there to kill stuff.

I had a game with smaller units 15 5 and maybe a 30. The 15 was ignored mostly since there were bigger threats like the 30 man and other boys so it made it mostly intact but the five man did not do much at all. Tried to grab an objective then got plastered easily.

tl:dr bigger is better with them and redundancy means something should get there.

 Da Squig wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm curious how people are running their Stormboyz. Any thoughts? What's the typical ideal stormboy loadout?

I have been running mine as full 30 man squads. I have 2 squads so 60 and will start work on a 3rd. They have been performing well. Not as punchy as 20+ boys but they are very fast and still can kill stuff or tie it down till you get someone there to kill stuff.

I had a game with smaller units 15 5 and maybe a 30. The 15 was ignored mostly since there were bigger threats like the 30 man and other boys so it made it mostly intact but the five man did not do much at all. Tried to grab an objective then got plastered easily.

tl:dr bigger is better with them and redundancy means something should get there.

I only have 45 Stormboyz, I am wondering how well they would do if I ran 90 or so in 3 big squads and then fielded tons of Kommandos like I did last tournament.


NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.

SemperMortis wrote:

NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.

How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?

Do burna kommandoes keep a choppa for an extra attack?

 koooaei wrote:
Do burna kommandoes keep a choppa for an extra attack?

Yep.

 JimOnMars wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.

How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?

In all 3 of my games I don't believe we made it past turn 3 because of how slow the army plays. And Keep in mind I was only running 174 Models (90 Boyz, 40 Stormboyz, 35 Kommandos, 4 Deff Koptas, Ghaz, Grotsnik, Weirdboy, Weirdboy, Big Mek) I don't think it would be a stretch for some armies to field significantly more then that by spamming boyz even more then I was.

On an unrelated note, I don't think horde is going to be viable in the near future. SMs especially are going to be excessively hard to beat once they start spamming Assault Cannons.

On another unrelated note, Kommandos need a buff. A 5 man squad of Kommandos with 2 Burnas has 3 pistol shots at range when they deep strike and that is it. When they assault they get 8 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2AP attacks and the Nob gets 4 S5 attacks. Either they need a buff to damage output or they need a buff to durability. If they came stock with a 4+ save or even a 5+ save that would significantly help them. Imagine deepstriking into cover and getting a 2+ save, it would drive enemies nuts, it would also give us more of a tactical advantage in using those units, no longer are they a Alpha strike/beta strike unit, they can also sit in cover near an enemy and then either draw fire or launch assaults elsewhere or get a more guaranteed assault.