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SemperMortis wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.

How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?

In all 3 of my games I don't believe we made it past turn 3 because of how slow the army plays. And Keep in mind I was only running 174 Models (90 Boyz, 40 Stormboyz, 35 Kommandos, 4 Deff Koptas, Ghaz, Grotsnik, Weirdboy, Weirdboy, Big Mek) I don't think it would be a stretch for some armies to field significantly more then that by spamming boyz even more then I was.

On an unrelated note, I don't think horde is going to be viable in the near future. SMs especially are going to be excessively hard to beat once they start spamming Assault Cannons.

On another unrelated note, Kommandos need a buff. A 5 man squad of Kommandos with 2 Burnas has 3 pistol shots at range when they deep strike and that is it. When they assault they get 8 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2AP attacks and the Nob gets 4 S5 attacks. Either they need a buff to damage output or they need a buff to durability. If they came stock with a 4+ save or even a 5+ save that would significantly help them. Imagine deepstriking into cover and getting a 2+ save, it would drive enemies nuts, it would also give us more of a tactical advantage in using those units, no longer are they a Alpha strike/beta strike unit, they can also sit in cover near an enemy and then either draw fire or launch assaults elsewhere or get a more guaranteed assault.

I feel that for a big part it is actually the inclusion of the KFF and the way that rule is worded that slows down an already slow army. My last two games I have played without meks, simply because of the annoyance of trying to keep every model within the bubble with dissimilar advance rolls and everything. One if my bigger hopes for the codex would be, that the KFF becomes a regular aura effect like, say, doks tools.

With regard to kommandos I feel that you either give them big shootas and deepstrike them into cover near an objective, or you deepstrike them out of cover and try to get them into CC. So you either waste their cover-bonus or their mandatory choppas that cannot be swapped for shootas. It is like they are trying to fill two different roles that cannot be combined.

 JimOnMars wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.

How many tournaments are allowing reserves past turn 3? Or are we assuming that with orks on the table, we never get past turn 3 before the clock runs out?

Exactly what I was about to ask. Haven't seen any tournaments so far that are ignoring the turn 3 restriction on reserves, so maybe its the latter?

I was thinking about making a pre-measured circle the size of a KFF plus Big Mek base. Maybe if it was up on legs and had strings with beads tied to the ends as weights it could work pretty well despite inconvenient terrain and models.

 koooaei wrote:
How do you guyz max CP? On one hand, geting a lot of CP is really benefical. On the other it almost certainly forces you to go second. Also, footsloggers usually want larger squads of infantry. I guess, there's nothing bad in taking an extra 3*10 squads of boyz instead of big gunz or koptas.

I usually get the Battailion and add a Spearhead, Vaguard, Outrider, Air Wing and/or Supreme Command detachment. Of course 12 CP is more awesome than 7-8 CP, but I think one can do with less if you just don't roll everything possible.

Is having additional 2 counter-attacks/moral auto-passes or 4 re-rolls really worth bringing units you wouldn't field otherwise?

For example, I feel that there are few fast attack choices worth bringing in a battlewagon army, as all of them are vulnerable against weapons that are not worth shooting at battlewagons, making the whole point of the battlewagon army moot. Lootaz or Dakkajets work a lot better, as they either stay far away from any assault cannons and bolters, or have enough hard to hit wounds to be bothered by single damage weapons. No amount of re-rolls would keep my koptaz, buggies or storm boyz alive long enough to make them as good as the same amount of points in lootaz or dakka jets.
I guess I could hide some storm boyz in battlewagons, but that defeats the whole point of bringing storm boyz in the first place, doesn't it?
In addition, I couldn't possibly field enough battlewagons to fit 6 troops in there, and mixing speeds has never been a good idea. I guess trukks need to get cheaper before this becomes an option again.

If your army actually wants 6 troops and you have decent choices in each slot, you should go for it.

 Jidmah wrote:


If your army actually wants 6 troops and you have decent choices in each slot, you should go for it.

It's quite easy to field a decent brigade detachment actually. Ghaz plus 2 weirboyz are solid and you may want them anyway, 6x30 units of boyz are also solid, 3 min units of kommandos or some painboyz are effective as well, 3 single mek gunz as objective holders and 3 min units of stormboyz or single koptas to complete the detachment. You would still have a few spared points available.

I think 7 CP are enough though and bringing the battallion plus another +1 CP detachment is better, not only for the more freedom you have in list building but also to minimize the drops as going first is essential, especially for orks. I tipically go for the battallion + spearhead since I want 3 BWs and some objective holders mek gunz, 8 drops in total.

We're gona have a lot more strategems to play around in the codex.

Even then unless some characters give bonus CP I don't think you'll see many ork lists with more than maybe 9. Taking choices just to fill slots creates a weaker list, which likely won't be overcome by strategems. So maybe if we get some points changes on units it would be doable to run a brigade, but right now a brigade seems to be wasting points filling up either fast or Heavy support or both. The bulk of that would be the 180 ork boyz + supporting characters. The rest of the list would be cheap min squads that don't contribute much. In addition many strategems may only work with certain units which if you are running a Brigade may mean you don't have those units, or enough of them to be worth while.

I think in general a battalion + 2 other detachments for 8 CP, or 2 Battalions + 1 other detachment , for 9 CP, will be better than a brigade for 12 CP. The advantage of the Brigade is only needing 3 HQ choices, over 4 or 5, but right now I'd rather have more weirdboyz in my list than bring buggies for the same cost. or 5 man storm boy squads.

Breng77 wrote:
Even then unless some characters give bonus CP I don't think you'll see many ork lists with more than maybe 9. Taking choices just to fill slots creates a weaker list, which likely won't be overcome by strategems. So maybe if we get some points changes on units it would be doable to run a brigade, but right now a brigade seems to be wasting points filling up either fast or Heavy support or both. The bulk of that would be the 180 ork boyz + supporting characters. The rest of the list would be cheap min squads that don't contribute much. In addition many strategems may only work with certain units which if you are running a Brigade may mean you don't have those units, or enough of them to be worth while.

I think in general a battalion + 2 other detachments for 8 CP, or 2 Battalions + 1 other detachment , for 9 CP, will be better than a brigade for 12 CP. The advantage of the Brigade is only needing 3 HQ choices, over 4 or 5, but right now I'd rather have more weirdboyz in my list than bring buggies for the same cost. or 5 man storm boy squads.

I think what really kills it is the taxes we have to pay to get those CP compared to other factions. Take Space Marine for example, for 86pts they can take a 5 man unit of scouts with Sniper rifles and camo cloaks, position them in a ruin somewhere and they magically become 2+ save, character/elite infantry killing gold. Not the worlds best unit by any means, but compare that to Grots. We pay for grots whose sole purpose in the game is to sit on an objective and die. Yeah they are cheaper but they also don't contribute to the game until the end when, if still alive, they get us an objective.

Yup, grots need changes to be worth taking. After having used some this weekend I feel like they either need to go down in points (maybe 2 points per model, I'd say 1 but that would be a bit much I think), or an increase in stats and access to better guns. I mean when you look at something like conscripts at 3 points and Gretchin at 3 points there is no area in which Grots can compete. At 2 points they could at least function as cheap bubble wrap as 60 points for 30 would be pretty good as then adding their Runt Herd would still keep them under 90 points. They would still be pretty easy to chew through for most armies at T2 with a 6+ save, but it would be better. Also 10 for 20 points would be a usable tax unit and objective sitting troop.

Or they could go up to T3 and get access to "grot shootas" at 18" assault 2 S3. This would make them slightly more durable (at least S4-5 would only wound them on 3s) and allow them to be a "good" shooting troop choice. As 90 points for 60 S3 shots that hit on a 3+ would be pretty decent anti-horde shooting. Or making their pistols Pistol 2 would work if you GW doesn't want to make new models.

As it stands they really are a tax unit that you are only taking because they are cheaper than an equally useless 10 boy squad.

The same is true with Fast and Heavy slots to an extent. Any really cheap choice is fairly useless and needs to be bigger to really have much of an impact.

Breng77 wrote:
Yup, grots need changes to be worth taking. After having used some this weekend I feel like they either need to go down in points (maybe 2 points per model, I'd say 1 but that would be a bit much I think), or an increase in stats and access to better guns. I mean when you look at something like conscripts at 3 points and Gretchin at 3 points there is no area in which Grots can compete. At 2 points they could at least function as cheap bubble wrap as 60 points for 30 would be pretty good as then adding their Runt Herd would still keep them under 90 points. They would still be pretty easy to chew through for most armies at T2 with a 6+ save, but it would be better. Also 10 for 20 points would be a usable tax unit and objective sitting troop.

Or they could go up to T3 and get access to "grot shootas" at 18" assault 2 S3. This would make them slightly more durable (at least S4-5 would only wound them on 3s) and allow them to be a "good" shooting troop choice. As 90 points for 60 S3 shots that hit on a 3+ would be pretty decent anti-horde shooting. Or making their pistols Pistol 2 would work if you GW doesn't want to make new models.

As it stands they really are a tax unit that you are only taking because they are cheaper than an equally useless 10 boy squad.

The same is true with Fast and Heavy slots to an extent. Any really cheap choice is fairly useless and needs to be bigger to really have much of an impact.

We need good ranged shooting and more short ranged crap dakka isn't going to help. Yeah it would make grots slightly more competitive but not even remotely as good as boyz or conscripts.

I really want Grots to either get a HUGE buff to stats or get rid of them entirely. We don't need more cheap infantry models to spam but we do need shooting.

The issue is where do you get ranged shooting from. I mean another option for me would be to allow for big guns to be added to got squads similar to heavy weapons teams for IG in the past. or eldar HW platforms. But giving them +1 T and slightly better shooting for their current price at least makes them worth a look at half the cost of boyz.

I really don't see how else you get much shooting, it would need to be more long range grot options otherwise crap BS always makes that shooting so so.

For what it's worth conscripts are too good at 3 points. With their current shooting and durability, but the change I propose for gretchin makes them better at shooting than conscripts at 12" (without orders).

SemperMortis wrote:

 Da Squig wrote:


I only have 45 Stormboyz, I am wondering how well they would do if I ran 90 or so in 3 big squads and then fielded tons of Kommandos like I did last tournament.


NOTE: since this is a tactics post, KOMMANDOS FOR COMPETITIVE GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why? take 2-3 minimum squads for 45pts each and keep them in reserve until your last turn. Drop them on an objective in cover hopefully and watch as your opponent realizes that he just lost 2-3 objectives because you saved 135pts worth of models for that specific reason. They aren't that great in combat even with the 2 burnas so you might as well use their 1 good ability which is to pop up randomly 9inches from the enemy.

Ran 80 SB in my game on Saturday (2x 30man, 1x 20). The 30mans did fairly well, but I was rolling like ass for the Nobs. They were stuck in combat pretty much the entire game. Twin Asscans gave the 20man squad a bad time.

Tried out 4x min Kommando squads on Sunday (Only one 30man SB squad though) and they did surprisingly well, they even killed some stuff. I had run Zhad up a board edge alone to bust up a vehicle, then plopped down a Komm squad so that the nearby Hellblaster squad couldn't target him. 4th squad just came in T3 and sat on an objective which is fine, but 3 squads would probably have sufficed.

I;m looking at coming up with a mek list, with dreads and tanks and such, and I was wondering what peoples thoughts were about killa kanz vs grot tanks?

My list at the moment would have a couple of dreads with skorchas and CCWs, some boyz and stormboyz, and I'm considering a kill tank with gigabursta (not sure on this yet though.

So I could add one of the following:

Killa Kanz x6 with 6 Rokkit Launchas (378pts)

Grot Tanks x6 with 7 rokkit launchas (commander has 2) (264pts)

I figured these were the best places for rokkits due to the extra BS, and the grot tanks proved slightly more dakka for the points (though they have less wounds etc, but I could buff the unit up to 8 tanks and still be cheaper).

What do you guys think?


Alternatively, I could go for smaller units and mix a bit...

Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)

Grot Tanks x4 + 5 Rokkit launchas (180pts)

Total = 363pts.

This gives a mix, and the kanz going solo means less problems with morale losing models and incoming damage overflow.

Niiru wrote:
I;m looking at coming up with a mek list, with dreads and tanks and such, and I was wondering what peoples thoughts were about killa kanz vs grot tanks?
My list at the moment would have a couple of dreads with skorchas and CCWs, some boyz and stormboyz, and I'm considering a kill tank with gigabursta (not sure on this yet though.
So I could add one of the following:
Killa Kanz x6 with 6 Rokkit Launchas (378pts)
Grot Tanks x6 with 7 rokkit launchas (commander has 2) (264pts)
I figured these were the best places for rokkits due to the extra BS, and the grot tanks proved slightly more dakka for the points (though they have less wounds etc, but I could buff the unit up to 8 tanks and still be cheaper).
What do you guys think?
Alternatively, I could go for smaller units and mix a bit...

Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)
Killa Kan + Grotzooka (61pts)

Grot Tanks x4 + 5 Rokkit launchas (180pts)
Total = 363pts.
This gives a mix, and the kanz going solo means less problems with morale losing models and incoming damage overflow.

So i've been doing the same thinking (in fact I have a very similar list - just building my killtank).
All of the following is just my opinion, so take it as that
If your going to run a 6 man killa kanz unit I would opt to put a mix of weapons on them. 6x rokkits is only netting you an average of 3 hits a turn at quite an expensive shooting platform. Not to mention its 2 hits a turn if your advancing (which, considering these are your only real CC orientated units you probably will be). I am giving my 6 2x skorcha, 2x rokkit, 2x kmb. The reasons for the KMBs are that they are cheap, but still provide the same profile as the rokkit, you can then elect to put wounds onto the KMB kanz first. I intend to have my Big Mek or some meks sitting with the kanz in order to heal up wounds. The skorchas are there because you can still advance and fire for D6 autohits. also, gives charge protection and after your KMB kanz have died you can then elect between the rokkit and skorcha kanz dependent on what the opponent still has on the table.

As for Grot tanks. You have to have a Big Mek to field them (just an FYI as you hadn't stated HQ choices.) They have the gretchin keyword, so a runtherd with the lash allows them re-rolls of 1's in fight phase. (if you manage to make use of that why god damn killa kanz dont have gretchin keyword I dont know...) Grot tanks are better for rokkits imo, I am running mine with KMB's, but thats just because I want to save points. I am unsure whether the commanda has to take 2 different weapons. As it states Grot tanks may choose one of the following, commanda's may choose 2; ( are something along those lines).

So if anyone can clarify if that means we can double stack the same?

The 2D6 movement could be very effective for getting some long assaults off, as technically you could get a 12" move and then a long charge, so personally I feel like you need to make use of their melee profile to maximise their potential, but I need to test that. Could be useful to tie up a unit while the kanz get there. Banner nob gives all of them the +1 to hit rolls. So if you manage to get into CC with a banner nob and a lash runt nearby they make 9 attacks at Str 4 that hits on 5's with re-rolls of 1s. which is still pretty sucky, but at least they are T5 with 4 Wounds, so as long as its not a CC unit they should be able to hold well.

Grot tanks main issue is the min squad of 4, with LD5. Meaning if you lose 1 tank you are looking at morale losses. A warboss nearby can inflict d3 mortal wounds to autopass, but that could be pretty brutal considering they are only 4 wounds. Killtank looks amazing (imo), I plan on using mine to get Ghaz and 2 units of kommandos into the fray. With a banner nob. The melee profile is awesome, getting like 8 attacks at Str 10, and D3 mortals on the charge, str8 on folliowing turns. Give it some skorchas, or put the kommandos inside for 4D3 autohits. Banner nob also buff the killtank. and finally what I feel is its best attribute, is that its WS3, so WS2 with banner and when it loses wounds, it doesn't lose str or attacks like the morka/gorka/meka dreds... meaning that its still WS3 with banner when on half wounds with 8 attacks at Str 10/8. Basically, its a bit of a beatstick imo. Im going to use mine to charge smaller units to inflict maximum damage and hope to wipe them on their phase. as that way you mitigate the falling back cant shoot stuff.

Deffdreads still seem very expensive. Personally i'd take more kanz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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On another note;
is there any consensus on warbikes vs nob bikers?
the 3W on the nob bikers seems to pair nicely with the painboy on bike, as you can take a 2 damage hit which the warbikes cant. They also have the keepin' order ability and you can equip 2-3 with BC's and Kombi skorchas for some nice dakka output. Then keep a couple barebones for taking wounds and healing up with the painboy?

May be quite pricey, but seems dead killy compared to warbikers. Thoughts? I have like 6 bikes I almost finished and I could easily turn into nob bikers.

Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


If your army actually wants 6 troops and you have decent choices in each slot, you should go for it.

It's quite easy to field a decent brigade detachment actually. Ghaz plus 2 weirboyz are solid and you may want them anyway, 6x30 units of boyz are also solid, 3 min units of kommandos or some painboyz are effective as well, 3 single mek gunz as objective holders and 3 min units of stormboyz or single koptas to complete the detachment. You would still have a few spared points available.

Sure, but I was trying to say that this approach does not work for battlewagon bash, dread mobs, biker armies and other ork archetypes. Especially considering that GW allows you to field some armies without any troop tax now.

I think 7 CP are enough though and bringing the battallion plus another +1 CP detachment is better, not only for the more freedom you have in list building but also to minimize the drops as going first is essential, especially for orks. I tipically go for the battallion + spearhead since I want 3 BWs and some objective holders mek gunz, 8 drops in total.

Same for me, 3 BW + KFF mek spearhead is pretty much an auto-include in any battlewagon army for +1 CP.

koooaei wrote:We're gona have a lot more strategems to play around in the codex.

I don't think that it's too much to assume that most our stratagems will be centered around charging or fighting, which is where we are already using our points. Is somehow doubt that there will be stratagem that is good enough to include 200 points of useless units.

Breng77 wrote:Yup, grots need changes to be worth taking. After having used some this weekend I feel like they either need to go down in points (maybe 2 points per model, I'd say 1 but that would be a bit much I think), or an increase in stats and access to better guns. I mean when you look at something like conscripts at 3 points and Gretchin at 3 points there is no area in which Grots can compete. At 2 points they could at least function as cheap bubble wrap as 60 points for 30 would be pretty good as then adding their Runt Herd would still keep them under 90 points. They would still be pretty easy to chew through for most armies at T2 with a 6+ save, but it would be better. Also 10 for 20 points would be a usable tax unit and objective sitting troop.

Or they could go up to T3 and get access to "grot shootas" at 18" assault 2 S3. This would make them slightly more durable (at least S4-5 would only wound them on 3s) and allow them to be a "good" shooting troop choice. As 90 points for 60 S3 shots that hit on a 3+ would be pretty decent anti-horde shooting. Or making their pistols Pistol 2 would work if you GW doesn't want to make new models.

That would just make them shoota boyz though. I think a better solution would be giving them some sort of heavy weapon, turning them into something similar to tactical squads or eldar guardians.

Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.

Or they could get rid of Mek Gunz/Big Gunz entirely and make them a upgrade for grot mobs. 1 Gun for every 5-10 Grots or so. That would actually make me want to take grots lol, also it would require GW to lower the costs of Big Gunz/Mek Gunz because they are currently over priced for what little dakka they provide.

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians.

Won't happen, as the rules don't allow for mixed toughness units.
Unless you want your Big gun at T2?

SemperMortis wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.

Or they could get rid of Mek Gunz/Big Gunz entirely and make them a upgrade for grot mobs. 1 Gun for every 5-10 Grots or so. That would actually make me want to take grots lol, also it would require GW to lower the costs of Big Gunz/Mek Gunz because they are currently over priced for what little dakka they provide.

I would be fine with that I think for points fixing you wouldn't need to do really anything. Just treat the gun like the Eldar HW platform where it's statline is mostly the same as the grots (better save, different WS, extra wounds, but same T), then make the platform 2 points + gun. Especially with Grot BS bonus, having say 3 kannons for 17 points each, with BS3+ would be pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians.

Won't happen, as the rules don't allow for mixed toughness units.
Unless you want your Big gun at T2?

I want grots at T3, but I'd be fine with T2 guns if they have 30 ablative wounds.

Breng77 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians. Which I would be cool with, I just think making their pistols better would also need to happen as likely would an increase to T3 because at T2 they die way too easily.

Or they could get rid of Mek Gunz/Big Gunz entirely and make them a upgrade for grot mobs. 1 Gun for every 5-10 Grots or so. That would actually make me want to take grots lol, also it would require GW to lower the costs of Big Gunz/Mek Gunz because they are currently over priced for what little dakka they provide.

I would be fine with that I think for points fixing you wouldn't need to do really anything. Just treat the gun like the Eldar HW platform where it's statline is mostly the same as the grots (better save, different WS, extra wounds, but same T), then make the platform 2 points + gun. Especially with Grot BS bonus, having say 3 kannons for 17 points each, with BS3+ would be pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Yeah the only way to really do that without new models would be for GW to allow them to take a single big gun in the unit similar to elder guardians.

Won't happen, as the rules don't allow for mixed toughness units.
Unless you want your Big gun at T2?

I want grots at T3, but I'd be fine with T2 guns if they have 30 ablative wounds.

This right here is perfect.

On an unrelated note, I think until our codex gets released I am going to put my Deff Koptas on the shelf as well. That means I have officially retired my Koptas, Warbikes, Kanz, Dreadz, Morkanaut, Lootas, Meganobz and Mek Gunz/Big Gunz.

On the plus side, I do think that with those saved points in my competitive list (240ish) I can field another Boyz blob and then reinforce my Kommandos with another squad. This will be the worlds slowest list to play and GW is solely to blame for making that our only useful strategy with our lists. That will bring my list to 120 Boyz in 4 Mobs, 40 Kommandos in 8 mobs (nob and 2 burnas per mob) 2 Stormboy Mobs of 20 Models each and then a smattering of HQ choices like Ghaz, Weirdboyz, Grotsnik and a KFF Big Mek.

This actually might make me stop playing my army if we don't get a new codex soon. solo competitive builds become very boring very quickly. And ironically this list is extremely weak vs Girlyman lists or IG Conscript lists.

I've been trying some off lists for competitive games. My last go was

Vanguard
Ghaz
3 Killsaw MANZ
3 x 5 Kommandos w/ 2 burnas
2 x 10 Gretchin

Spearhead
Big mek on bike with KFF
Gorkanaut
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla and ard case
2 Deffdreads w 2 xskorchas

Supreme Command
MA warboss
4 x Weirdboy
Pain boy

I won vs Razorback spam marines with this list, but it was not a super optimized list (no Girlyman or conscripts)

My findings having played this list were as follows
-Grots are terrible for basically anything other than a cheap troop to sit an objective out of LOS.

- Deff dreads are ok but too slow to be really good, they need to be able to advance and charge to be really any good, or have a faster move

- Kommandos are a great distraction/objective unit. In cover they are surprisingly durable, and they can play a lot of tricks. Burnas are meh, but free so I take them.

- T8 is a big deal over T7. Getting wounded on 6s by most small arms fire, and 5s by most other weapons is huge (4s on missiles is big as well. My Gorkanaut was a hero this game as he has decent shooting, and is great in CC.

- Ghaz is way better than a regular warboss against most things, but the Warboss is still decent, and advance and charge adds a lot.

-Weirdboyz are amazing, Da jump and smite are both great powers, Warpath is ok, I wish head banger was target model, without that it is worthless. I'm really looking forward to 3 more powers in our codex

-Painboy is probably only worth it if you are running blobs or big squads of multi-wound models. I thought he would heal up my ICs but I was too spread out for that really to happen.

-Big mek is good, but I like being able to spread out and that limits his effect.

-Manz are good against vehicles.

So base on this I am looking at going with

Vanguard
Ghaz
25 Boyz + Boss nob
10 Gretchin
3 Killsaw MANZ
3 x 5 Kommandos w/ 2 burnas

Spearhead
Big mek on bike KFF
Big Mek Kff
2 x Gorkanaut
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla and ard case

Supreme Command
3 x Weirdboy


My thoughts are that this will provide more T8 for my opponent to deal with. 2 Meks will let me spread out a bit and be able to fix 2 vehicles per turn. The addition of boyz gives me another da jump option if my opponent has a screening unit of infantry.

 Jidmah wrote:

koooaei wrote:We're gona have a lot more strategems to play around in the codex.

I don't think that it's too much to assume that most our stratagems will be centered around charging or fighting, which is where we are already using our points. Is somehow doubt that there will be stratagem that is good enough to include 200 points of useless units.

I hope there is - i love useless units.

Breng77 wrote:


Snip

Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.

How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?

Solar Shock wrote:

Deffdreads still seem very expensive. Personally i'd take more kanz.

Yeh, problem is I have one normal deff dread and one kustom-built deff dread that I made, and I'd really prefer to use them in lists :(

I also have 6 killa kans, 3 of which can be transformed into grot tanks.

Solar Shock wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Snip

Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.

How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?

If I want them to they have been making combat. The battlewagon/gorkanaut helps with this for the warbosses (which are all I really want in combat), 1 Turn of battlewagon move + advance ~15" then Ghaz disembark + Move + advance is about 11". So that is 26" + 2D6 charge. Da Jump also helps. My list isn't really concerned with chaining buffs as much given I don't have many boyz. My boyz will often wait until Ghaz is up front, then weirboyz will jump them forward so they get the buff. Then both charge.

In an all foot list I think it is harder to get characters into combat, unless you go all storm boyz, and use da jump on a character.

Breng77 wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Snip

Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.

How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?

If I want them to they have been making combat. The battlewagon/gorkanaut helps with this for the warbosses (which are all I really want in combat), 1 Turn of battlewagon move + advance ~15" then Ghaz disembark + Move + advance is about 11". So that is 26" + 2D6 charge. Da Jump also helps. My list isn't really concerned with chaining buffs as much given I don't have many boyz. My boyz will often wait until Ghaz is up front, then weirboyz will jump them forward so they get the buff. Then both charge.

In an all foot list I think it is harder to get characters into combat, unless you go all storm boyz, and use da jump on a character.

I did have some trouble getting my Warboss into combat the last time I played. I put him behind my footlsogging boyz, so he wouldn't get shot, but this meant they could charge when he couldn't. Then, between pile-ins and consolidations they ended up leaving him in the dust. I did try to use Da Jump on him as he sadly shuffled by my Weird Boy, but that got denied and then he got shot off the board. Not much glory in that game for my poor Warboss.

It's been less of an issue for guys on bikes (which my bosses almost always are) and for Meks I don't really care since they're not a big combat force.

Even so, unless it would leave my warlord in a position to be shot up, I'm going for the charge even if it leaves a character behind. I want boyz in combat, where it's safe.

Solar Shock wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Snip

Question Breng, and for others,
in a lot of battreps what I am often seeing is a lot of daisy chaining of boyz/units back to a painboy/warboss etc... But what I also seem to notice is that I am often not seeing those characters make it into combat. Which seems wasteful. for example the Big meks and painboys often are just sitting at the back, and while they are giving those 6+ FNP rolls, they need like almost 10 in a game to make the points back. So they have a chain to Ghaz in one batrep and the dude charges but he gains +1A and seems to basically waste it, as he only gets 2/3 of the boyz into combat, making the buff the same as if he had simply got them all into combat range.

How are you finding your IC's? are they making it to combat?

It depends on the characters. Big meks for example are there mostly to give an invuln and come with a S4 AP0 melee weapon which makes them pretty bad in close combat; I tipycally use a biker mek only for the KFF and his shooting, which is something little but still something. Weirdboyz are a bit better in close combat and they may get into assault but even if they stay out of combat they should make their points back. However painboyz come with a stock power klaw and they usually buff hordes of boyz that screen them which means you want them charge with the boyz. Warbosses/ghaz should assault as well since they're the best ork fighters and they usually do.

Among all characters I'd keep out of combat the big meks and the weirdboyz, but if you have tons of bodies that are going to charge, you can let this characters join the party as well.

Niiru wrote:

Yeh, problem is I have one normal deff dread and one kustom-built deff dread that I made, and I'd really prefer to use them in lists :(
I also have 6 killa kans, 3 of which can be transformed into grot tanks.

Then go for it! I have the same. most of my models are conversions, so I feel i must play them, else I wasted a hell of a lot of time! Maybe grab a couple meks to give yourself lots of vehicle repair ability?
I almost made my kanz able to become grot tankz, but I realised I wanted them in the same lists, so I ended up just making a separate squad of each.


As for IC's, yeh I agree about the types of ones who want to be in combat, but I also feel like giving a BM on bike a BC could be worth it. he's mobile enough and with the added Str should hopefully dish out some pain. how have you found IC's survivability then? I feel like that maybe about mid game, it could be worthwhile for painboys and the big meks to start getting into combats to soften stuff up, rather than sitting back buffing a far more dwindled force. But I dunno. im running a BM on bike with BC in my next game, so il see how it goes.

Just one question : Slugga boyz or Shoota boyz ?

I have tons of Shoota but after a few games, it seems to me Sluggas would fair better since I almost always Advance...

Thoughts ?