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pismakron wrote:
My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.

That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.

That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.

Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.

That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.

That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.

Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.

I imagine -2 AP weapons can do away with this silly 'invulnerable save'.

+1 Toughness could be useful though. For all the crap that t-shirt saves get, being wounded on 5s rather than 4s is handy from time to time, as my 7th Grotesques can attest too.

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.

That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.

That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.

Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.

I mean if they both applied to all models that change would be great for mech orks. I'd be happy to have T9 2+ save gorkanauts, T8/9 3+ save wagons, T8 2+ save deff dreads. 2+ save Kans. Against most weapons this is better than the current for those units. Also for Deffkoptas and buggies. The +1 save is worse for 6+ save units. The +1 T is dependent on the weapon it is as good or better than the 6+ FNP for every S but 6 and 7. Now I assume the pain boy would still only work for infantry and bikes.

SemperMortis wrote:

pismakron wrote:
My wife just returned from nottingham where she attended a two-week course for nurses courtesy of the Danish state. When she was there she watched a game of 40k, with the following house rules: A kff conferred a +1 to the armor saves of all nearby units, instead of the 5++ to all units fully inside the 9" bubble. And the painboy conferred a +1 to Toughness of all nearby units, instead of the FNP.

That would be an effective way of speeding up the game I guess.

That would effectively cripple my Ork Army against my meta. Asscan spam, Heavy bolter spam and pretty much just a plethora of weapons with at least -1AP are everywhere. The only thing that those buffs would be good for is to make bikers almost as durable as they should already be.

Out of curiosity, how does +1 armor instead of a 5++ speed up the game? Daisy chaining back to a character is still as time consuming as making sure all units are within 9inches of a bubble. And the Painboy giving +1 to toughness does almost nothing in this game these days. I am not, and have never been scared of S4 bolters or even hurricane bolters, Its the assault cannons and such that eat my hordes and those 2 buffs actually make asscans move effective not less so. Dont get me wrong, the game does play slow but I would rather have a slower game where I stood a chance rather then a fast game where I pickup my models by the end of turn 2.

I really don't know about the specifics, as it was just an odd pair of houserules in a game I didn't watch in person.

As for the speed thing, I definitely think that the normal aura effects are a lot easier to work with in the movement phase than the nine inch kff buble. Advancing across the table with ninety Boyz that ALL has be to fully inside the nine inch bubble is a pain the ass. In my last two games I haven't used big meks, and the turns just go much faster and more smoothly, but, not surprisingly, losses are also higher.

gungo wrote:
Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut.

I really hope orks won't get characters, new or old, that size!! I hate huge models, especially if they're not vehicles. Anything bigger than the current ghaz or the BW should be banned IMHO, these models are actually huge. Things like celestine, the yncarne or guilliman are a mistake, they should be half their size. Or even the primaris, that are extremely silly in their gigantic size. GW miniatures are supposed to be 28mm scale figurines. I can't stand horrors like the AOS maw-krusha or other gargantuan heroes and I really hope 40k won't go that way.

 Blackie wrote:

gungo wrote:
Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut.

I really hope orks won't get characters, new or old, that size!! I hate huge models, especially if they're not vehicles. Anything bigger than the current ghaz or the BW should be banned IMHO, these models are actually huge. Things like celestine, the yncarne or guilliman are a mistake, they should be half their size. Or even the primaris, that are extremely silly in their gigantic size. GW miniatures are supposed to be 28mm scale figurines. I can't stank horrors like the AOS maw-krusha or other gargantuan heroes and I really hope 40k won't go that way.

I disagree based on the fact that the game is already going that way, so Ghaz being smaller than many normal characters seems wrong. That said even in the case of those larger models not existing Ghaz needs to be a bit bigger than he is. Normal Meganobz are the same size or taller than he is. He should be ~ the size of a centurion, and on a 50mm base.

Now that guys carrying flags are back and useful, they need to retcon Makari back to life.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
What kind of mileage have y'all been getting out of either of the Orkanauts? Thinking of picking one up for myself eventually.



On a side note the Dakkajet has been putting in good work for me so far.

My Morkanaut has yet to disappoint. It's KFF coverage is quite large and because I have lots of threats like the Dakkajet it doesn't get too much focus before my Orks take a toll on my opponent's stuff. The Dakkajet has some of the best shooting in the army. It has the full compliment of shots that you could possibly roll on a Deffstorm Megashoota at BS 4+! Solid unit.

Doesnt the KFF now require the entire unit to be within 9" to let any of its models benefit from it?

Pretty much prevents any non-vehicle from ever using it (or character)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Doesnt the KFF now require the entire unit to be within 9" to let any of its models benefit from it?

Pretty much prevents any non-vehicle from ever using it (or character)

If it was still 6" range I would agree with you but it just means you need proper placement and thanks to not having to worry about blast/flamer templates you can actually bunch up the boyz enough that they'll be in that 9" bubble. You definitely need to run multiples in the case of horde armies and a lot of the complaints for the KFF is how it restricts army movement, which is fair. I think it still makes up for it though as it saved my behind more times than I can count against enemy firepower especially for my vehicles or my dreds during my first try-out for a dred mob.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Doesn't the KFF now require the entire unit to be within 9" to let any of its models benefit from it?

Pretty much prevents any non-vehicle from ever using it (or character)

Correct and incorrect. You have to have the ENTIRE unit inside the bubble to get the benefit, however, I was able to cram 95 models under that bubble without much effort. The important thing to remember though is that this isn't all that great. If I could pay an extra 10-15pts and make it a 4++ it would be HUGE, but a 5++ just doesn't do as much as it should because you have to remember, THAT IS YOUR ARMOR SAVE!

By that I mean Ork infantry don't use their armor first and then save the ++ for those high powered -AP weapons. We instead substitute our armor for the KFF save the entire time, so a 5++ isn't that spectacular. A better way to look at that KFF save is to divide the cost of the Big Mek with KFF and add it to 60ish boyz, thats the price you are really paying to get a model with a 5+ save, and when you do that you quickly realize that we are overpaying for both the KFF and boyz.

As to vehicles, Its a necessity but again, our opponents either have better saves (normal and ++) or have some kind of ability to reduce damage like -1 to hit and such. So the KFF is great with vehicles but still not an auto-include.

 JohnU wrote:
Now that guys carrying flags are back and useful, they need to retcon Makari back to life.

Kinda late for that since his bosspole was actually the lucky stikk relic.




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 Blackie wrote:

gungo wrote:
Regardless after 3 major still ongoing wars and the fact ghaz is the warboss of warbosses in the largest modern era waaagh. He should be much bigger at this point as he will continue to grow. He may not reach prime ork status yet but he should definitely be at least the size of a dreadnaut.

I really hope orks won't get characters, new or old, that size!! I hate huge models, especially if they're not vehicles. Anything bigger than the current ghaz or the BW should be banned IMHO, these models are actually huge. Things like celestine, the yncarne or guilliman are a mistake, they should be half their size. Or even the primaris, that are extremely silly in their gigantic size. GW miniatures are supposed to be 28mm scale figurines. I can't stank horrors like the AOS maw-krusha or other gargantuan heroes and I really hope 40k won't go that way.

ironically people consider primarus marine truescale and what an actual marine size should be based on current lore and size of cadian models. current marines are actually to small and thus comparing primarus marines (truescale) to Guilliman. He is also correctly sized.... however you can still cry about his pauldrons which are HUGE.

Ghaz is already suppose to be the largest surviving ork in LORE. He should already be the size of a carnifex whereas true prime orks which were ancient orks were imperial knight sized. You can claim ghaz isn't old enough to be a prime ork yet but he should definitely be larger then mega nobs.


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SemperMortis wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Doesn't the KFF now require the entire unit to be within 9" to let any of its models benefit from it?

Pretty much prevents any non-vehicle from ever using it (or character)

Correct and incorrect. You have to have the ENTIRE unit inside the bubble to get the benefit, however, I was able to cram 95 models under that bubble without much effort. The important thing to remember though is that this isn't all that great. If I could pay an extra 10-15pts and make it a 4++ it would be HUGE, but a 5++ just doesn't do as much as it should because you have to remember, THAT IS YOUR ARMOR SAVE!

By that I mean Ork infantry don't use their armor first and then save the ++ for those high powered -AP weapons. We instead substitute our armor for the KFF save the entire time, so a 5++ isn't that spectacular. A better way to look at that KFF save is to divide the cost of the Big Mek with KFF and add it to 60ish boyz, thats the price you are really paying to get a model with a 5+ save, and when you do that you quickly realize that we are overpaying for both the KFF and boyz.

As to vehicles, Its a necessity but again, our opponents either have better saves (normal and ++) or have some kind of ability to reduce damage like -1 to hit and such. So the KFF is great with vehicles but still not an auto-include.

considering how strong boy blobs are already in the meta... You aren't overpaying for anything....it is one of the best units in game.... I know you have the label of being completely pessimistic on everything but crying about boyz is way out of place.

Yeah boyz are kinda nuts. Which is kinda counter-intuitive for me because i like toyz. I only own....200ish boyz i think but i have 5 dakkajets/battlewagons, 4 dreads, 6 kanz, 10 koptaz, 30 bikes, you get the idea lol.
Even just a stock unit of boy blobs with sluggachoppa (26 of them +pk nob) managed to cause 36 wounds to a marine squad lol. And i even forgot about their green tide +1 attack for more than 20 models rule. So they rolled 78 instead of 104 dice and still managed to cause that many wounds lol. I'm used to that only happening if im wounding on 3s pounding some guardsmen, not against marines.
Really my only complaint about boyz is on the Nob: theres no bosspole rules....wtf gw?

I still take painboyz even though i feel the 6+++ doesnt really work very often because even if he saves 4 boyz he's probably done enough, and he keeps the boss alive something fierce (seriously that heal is awesome). Plus, that one is model-specific so positioning isnt as punishing.
Thats the main thing about the KFF that bugs me. If even ONE BOY in your squad isnt in 9" they dont get the invul. It makes no sense to me for that to happen. On one hand it makes it much easier to tag all your vehicles but on the other it doesnt cover large units easily.
almost wish it was back to the 6" model specific rule.

..speaking of koptas why the frak are they vehicles now? lol that caught me off guard when i was corrected on attempting to painboy them thinking they were bikes (since...yaknow..jetbikes previously?)

gungo wrote:


considering how strong boy blobs are already in the meta... You aren't overpaying for anything....it is one of the best units in game.... I know you have the label of being completely pessimistic on everything but crying about boyz is way out of place.

I also play in a seriously competitive meta apparently because my opponents regularly bring Girlyman gunlines or spam enough dakka to wipe out boyz mobz every turn. One specific list i ran into recently was quad Asscan Razorbacks support by Girlyman with some throwaway infantry out front. 48 TL shots with shred that ignore my armor. I moved into range turn 1 because of necessity and he mowed down a blob of boyz every turn. 48 shots = about 43 hits and S6 Vs T4 = about 37+ wounds a turn. That 5++ And 6FNP did work for me but I was still getting my butt kicked. Turn one he killed 1 blob with lucky shooting/wounding and bad rolls on my part, turn 2 He repeated that trick and used his now rapid firing infantry to ensure the kill because I rolled rather well. Turn 3 I finally got into the assault and tied up all his infantry only for them to fall back and shoot the last blob I had left off the table.

With all of that said, I am not saying boyz aren't already good, I am saying that the KFF isn't all that good right now for its price and usefulness, I would love to get a MFF back

the girlyman tactic might as well just remove 1/16th of the dice you are rolling and then make that many saves. Kinda ridiculous they gave reroll hits AND wounds to a 3+ army that can spam heavy weapons.
Face that with my orks and i literally just feel like im banking on 5++ luck because he literally can NOT miss/fail to wound me.

This is why i dont play competitive 40k. There is always atleast 1 army that has an autowin list and only loses through sheer bad luck or it didnt shoot first.

The kff makes its points back and then some every game I play.
Sounds like you need movement trays to keep everyone in kff range.
The painboy is not really that useful, mad doc is really the only decent option with boy blobs and that's because he is fairly durable and provides semi reliable pk action. The handful of boys he saves per game is just extra if your lucky he can heal wounds on himself or another character like ghaz.

Boys even got a bump with chapter approved making blob lists objective secured.

Also guilliman and conscript blobs are the best list in game currently. Conscripts are on the chopping block due for a nerf and likely small points bump for guilliman. Then you can cry about the next net list! Maybe ynnari/harlequins or tau commanders (which looks like nerfbaf bait soon as well)


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 Vineheart01 wrote:
the girlyman tactic might as well just remove 1/16th of the dice you are rolling and then make that many saves. Kinda ridiculous they gave reroll hits AND wounds to a 3+ army that can spam heavy weapons.
Face that with my orks and i literally just feel like im banking on 5++ luck because he literally can NOT miss/fail to wound me.

This is why i dont play competitive 40k. There is always atleast 1 army that has an autowin list and only loses through sheer bad luck or it didnt shoot first.

Gw has been going through netlists fast...in two months we have seen plasma scion spam nerfed, stormraven nerfed, razorwing spam nerfed, brimstone spam nerfed, genestealers buffed and immediately nerfed, honestly a conscript nerf is due really soon and maybe a guilliman point bump and things should be a bit better. I'm sure we will get a FAQ (at least on conscripts) before nova at the end of the month since the chapter approved post said nova will implement the new changes.

Unfortunately the codex didn't nerf girlyman and razors.

To be fair stormravens weren't nerfed, the list with only those flyers was. Stormravens are still among the best units in 40k.

Plasma scions are still broken. Even with the prime they are extremely cheap for what they do. I expect a serious nerf (I mean paying that damn plasma like other imperium factions, 13 points instead of 7) when their codex comes out. At the moment a plasma gun in scions hands cost basically like a big shoota, but that AM forces can deep strike, have bs4+ and thanks to the prime they can even re-roll 1s, which means rapid fire overcharged plasma all over your face. Enough to wreck any mechanized list, which is how I play orks, and I fear them more than everything else.

 Blackie wrote:
To be fair stormravens weren't nerfed, the list with only those flyers was. Stormravens are still among the best units in 40k.

Plasma scions are still broken. Even with the prime they are extremely cheap for what they do. I expect a serious nerf (I mean paying that damn plasma like other imperium factions, 13 points instead of 7) when their codex comes out. At the moment a plasma gun in scions hands cost basically like a big shoota, but that AM forces can deep strike, have bs4+ and thanks to the prime they can even re-roll 1s, which means rapid fire overcharged plasma all over your face. Enough to wreck any mechanized list, which is how I play orks, and I fear them more than everything else.

The raven list was nerfed, as were scions, both are still really good.


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 koooaei wrote:
Unfortunately the codex didn't nerf girlyman and razors.

Which is kind of amusing because they removed things like las/plas turrets, but not the assault cannon turret, even though no such Turret comes in the Razorback kit. I guess they want people to buy the Landraider crusader kit or Baal Pred kit to get the turrets for their razorbacks as that is the only GW assault cannon turrets that exist.

 Blackie wrote:
To be fair stormravens weren't nerfed, the list with only those flyers was. Stormravens are still among the best units in 40k.

Plasma scions are still broken. Even with the prime they are extremely cheap for what they do. I expect a serious nerf (I mean paying that damn plasma like other imperium factions, 13 points instead of 7) when their codex comes out. At the moment a plasma gun in scions hands cost basically like a big shoota, but that AM forces can deep strike, have bs4+ and thanks to the prime they can even re-roll 1s, which means rapid fire overcharged plasma all over your face. Enough to wreck any mechanized list, which is how I play orks, and I fear them more than everything else.

On the other hand a game dominated by plasma scions and gurliman-buffed las-predators makes things a lot easier for boy-hordes. But I agree that plasma-scions are good against pretty much anything else in the game. Lootas, tankbustas, walkers, transports, artillery, nobz, meganobz and bikers are all hardcountered by deepstriking plasma-scions. Plasma scions are great against light vehicles, heavy tanks, walkers, monstrous creatures and elite infantry.

Yeah 4 storm Ravens back up by las/missile dreds and shrike to give everything rerolls to hit kills 60+ Boyz a turn under a kff and painboy with splitfire nailing any vehicles/big guns that could of threatened them. They're very much not nerfed.

Have you tried screening you vehicles with stormboyz? Just to keep the scions out of rapid fire range?


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 Hades wrote:
Yeah 4 storm Ravens back up by las/missile dreds and shrike to give everything rerolls to hit kills 60+ Boyz a turn under a kff and painboy with splitfire nailing any vehicles/big guns that could of threatened them. They're very much not nerfed.

But 60 Boyz a turn is not necessarily enough for those kind of lists anymore. Ghaz, Grotsnik and 30 Boyz can easily destroy a guilliman parking lot or similar outfit. Regards

pismakron wrote:
Have you tried screening you vehicles with stormboyz? Just to keep the scions out of rapid fire range?

That would be a tailoring move since orks lists with many vehicles may be viable only beacuse everything in those lists is T6 or better, invalidating the anti-infantry weapons in the first turns. If you field stormboyz and don't go first the opponent will now have some juicy target for his anti-infantry units. And you also end up with more drops. You're right about plasma scions since you will probably go first anyway and you keep them out of rapid fire range but against other armies? I think hoping not to face many scions command squads and going with a full mechanized list is more TAC


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pismakron wrote:


But 60 Boyz a turn is not necessarily enough for those kind of lists anymore. Ghaz, Grotsnik and 30 Boyz can easily destroy a guilliman parking lot or similar outfit. Regards

Maybe in tournaments with time limitations. In a real game with 5+ turns, if you field a green tide and lose 60 boyz a turn you're gonna be tabled.

The problem is whoever thought twin linked guns needed to double shots and give the army easy access to re-rolls needs to be fired. From one of those Sigmar airship cannons

 Hades wrote:
The problem is whoever thought twin linked guns needed to double shots and give the army easy access to re-rolls needs to be fired. From one of those Sigmar airship cannons

That is part of it if those auras were infantry models within 6", it would help that a lot. It also didn't help that the assault cannon gained 2 shots, which meant that the twin assault cannon gained 4 shots.

I think if things were costed a bit better it would be good too. If twin weapons for marines were like twin weapons for orks things would be a bit different.

Twin big shoota is a 133% increase in points, so is the twin rokkit launcha (rack of rokkits/kopta rokkits)

If you did that for the twin marine weapons

Twin heavy bolter would be 23 points
Twin assault cannon 49 points
Twin lascannon would be 58 points

etc

Right now the worst marines get is a 100% increase (twin lascannon is the cost of 2 lascannons), the assault cannon is only a 66% increase, twin heavy bolter is 70% increase.

If an assault cannon razorback was 114 points it wouldn't be a huge change, but it would add up over the course of an army.

Breng77 wrote:

 Hades wrote:
The problem is whoever thought twin linked guns needed to double shots and give the army easy access to re-rolls needs to be fired. From one of those Sigmar airship cannons

That is part of it if those auras were infantry models within 6", it would help that a lot. It also didn't help that the assault cannon gained 2 shots, which meant that the twin assault cannon gained 4 shots.

I think if things were costed a bit better it would be good too. If twin weapons for marines were like twin weapons for orks things would be a bit different.

Twin big shoota is a 133% increase in points, so is the twin rokkit launcha (rack of rokkits/kopta rokkits)

If you did that for the twin marine weapons

Twin heavy bolter would be 23 points
Twin assault cannon 49 points
Twin lascannon would be 58 points

etc

Right now the worst marines get is a 100% increase (twin lascannon is the cost of 2 lascannons), the assault cannon is only a 66% increase, twin heavy bolter is 70% increase.

If an assault cannon razorback was 114 points it wouldn't be a huge change, but it would add up over the course of an army.

Yeah, just one more reason why I need to track down whomever wrote the Ork Index and beat them with a blunt choppa. A shooting army pays less for more shots then a CC army does......One more step down GWs illogical ladder

Anybody hoping we get access to snipers with our codex?

Would be neat to have a single infantry elite model sniper or perhaps an upgrade for kommandos.

Even if bs 4+ and on a 1 hits nearest model in firing path friend or foe, or perhaps nearest model to his intended target within 6" or so.

Would be very orky



How are y'all dealing with character auras you need to remove now? They have been targets of charges for me when I can kill the screens and get by

House sized orks remain a ridiculous thing.

skyfi wrote:
Anybody hoping we get access to snipers with our codex?

Would be neat to have a single infantry elite model sniper or perhaps an upgrade for kommandos.

Even if bs 4+ and on a 1 hits nearest model in firing path friend or foe, or perhaps nearest model to his intended target within 6" or so.

Would be very orky



How are y'all dealing with character auras you need to remove now? They have been targets of charges for me when I can kill the screens and get by

In the fluff Grots use sniper rifles....just saying.

Kommando grots, or grot snipers should be a thing !