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 Blackie wrote:
5 tankbustas didn't menage to do their job pretty much eveytime...I ended up with 2x5 tankbustas

It's like giving presents that people don't need.
"Oh, a stapler! Doubt they'll need it. But what if i give them 20 Staplers!"

How do you kit out your kommandos? 5-man squads with burnas? Big shootas?

So reconsidering options has me rereading the index. Has anyone had any experience with zzap guns? Ap3 with 3 damage is a pretty good profile and with them all being separate units you can dedicate one shot at a time at targets before moving on to the next. 180 points for six is cheap and building them is as simple as raiding the hardware store or IG HW teams.

i suspect LOS will be a problem depending on terrain since all of the official terrain (not sure how many people use those) tend to be quite narrow for anything that isnt a typical infantry to sit on.

pismakron wrote:
How do you kit out your kommandos? 5-man squads with burnas? Big shootas?

I've tried 3-4 units of 5 dudes with only free upgrades. 2 regular kommandos, 2 dudes with burna and a nob with slugga & choppa. If you expect to go second anyway they can be quite useful. I haven't tried a big squad with or without snikrot though. But they look quite expensive in large squads and since you may want them on later turns I don't know if you can afford a single unit that costs that many points that stays out of the game for several turns.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
It is entirely possible for orks to design an army where almost everything can assault turn 1. At 2k points you can easily get 180 orks into charge range if you use a bunch of kommandos. That is without really min-maxing for Kommando drops. Min maxing for drops can get you 220 Orks charging turn 1. It isn't a hugely effective list, but you could do it.

You still need 9" to make those charges, and if your opponent is not a complete idiot, he will force you away from his valuable units through deployment. By now everybody is expecting Da Jump with 30 boyz in turn 1.
In my game yesterday (Search and Destroy deployment) there was no place in their deployment zone of place even a single kopta.

Which is why I said it isn't hugely effective. That said 180-220 orks 9" away from your opponent turn 1 would be tough to deal with. You could also bring them in in waves etc. Removing the wrap with the first wave and then bringing in the second. It is subject though to failing key charges, which is why it isn't over powering.


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 Blackie wrote:

pismakron wrote:
How do you kit out your kommandos? 5-man squads with burnas? Big shootas?

I've tried 3-4 units of 5 dudes with only free upgrades. 2 regular kommandos, 2 dudes with burna and a nob with slugga & choppa. If you expect to go second anyway they can be quite useful. I haven't tried a big squad with or without snikrot though. But they look quite expensive in large squads and since you may want them on later turns I don't know if you can afford a single unit that costs that many points that stays out of the game for several turns.

yeah I considered doing 2-3 big squads and Snikrot, then Da jumping a banner up with them to have a bunch of 2+ re-rolling orks. The problem is they don't really hit harder than the same points in boyz would because they have fewer attacks. They also have no durability so they would wipe a unit and get killed. They really need better shooting options so they can make use of their cover bonus. I also have considered 2 big shootas on a small squad to sit on an objective, but I always end up removing the big shootas for need of points elsewhere in my list.

Min 45 point squads with Nob and 2 Burnas have been good for me as a distraction unit/objective grabber. They are great in the relic, and in maelstrom missions. The relic keeps me wanting to bring snikrot, but he usually doesn't make the cut as those points are better in almost ever other circumstance spent elsewhere.


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 Hades wrote:
So reconsidering options has me rereading the index. Has anyone had any experience with zzap guns? Ap3 with 3 damage is a pretty good profile and with them all being separate units you can dedicate one shot at a time at targets before moving on to the next. 180 points for six is cheap and building them is as simple as raiding the hardware store or IG HW teams.

The issue to some extent is the random strength. The random strength has me worried that I would miss with my good strength shots, and hit with my S2 shots. They are less random than some things, but kannons seem better at S8 -2 D6 damage. It has worse Ap but mostly better damage, and as good or better Strength 72% of the time unless I'm blowing CP re-rolls on the random strength.

Breng77 wrote:


Min 45 point squads with Nob and 2 Burnas have been good for me as a distraction unit/objective grabber. They are great in the relic, and in maelstrom missions. The relic keeps me wanting to bring snikrot, but he usually doesn't make the cut as those points are better in almost ever other circumstance spent elsewhere.

I don't think they should be more deadly in shooting or close combat, they should only be more durable. It would be nice and appropriate if snikrot gives them a buff like a +3 to their save.

 Blackie wrote:

Breng77 wrote:


Min 45 point squads with Nob and 2 Burnas have been good for me as a distraction unit/objective grabber. They are great in the relic, and in maelstrom missions. The relic keeps me wanting to bring snikrot, but he usually doesn't make the cut as those points are better in almost ever other circumstance spent elsewhere.

I don't think they should be more deadly in shooting or close combat, they should only be more durable. It would be nice and appropriate if snikrot gives them a buff like a +3 to their save.

I would like them to have a static +2 to their cover bonus, but an option for them to take shootas would allow them to better use the bonus in the first place. Or if their boss Nob could take shooty options. A squad with 3 Rokkits might be worth it as a suicide squad.

I'm surprised that I don't hear more about Snikrot on this thread. He's the cheapest Character and brings some decent buffs to arguably our best unit. Plus his model is amazing!

I like him but he doesn't mesh well with the current point of kommandos which are cheap distraction units. His aoe ability is okay but isn't a huge help. He is not especially Killy and he still costs more then a squad of 5extra kommandos. Honestly he would be taken more if he gave all blood axe kommandos within 6in +1 cover sv or of his Melee wpns had a better profile.

The other big issue which will get worse with the codex is he is going to screw up any clan tactics being the ONLY character who doesn't work well with other clans.
I have a feeling the majority of army lists will be evil suns (zhardsnark) or goff (ghazskull, zagstruk, buzzgrob). Unless bloodaxes (snikrot) or deathskulls (mad doc) have a phenomenal clan tactic or relics you likely won't see those clans too often.

There really isn't a lot to talk about now until we get some FAQs or new datasheets from fw or a new codex. But I'm hopeful gw can turn this ship around since we do have a good base to build on now with strong boys, strong psykers, strong characters. It's just our vehicles, some elite units and shooting units that need a boost.

Nobz question.... (I do love some Nobz...). I see the multi wound on runts, single on a Nob plan. Rules are that you allocate all wounds on an already wounded model till he's dead, yes? So that one bolt that gets through the Nob armour is gonna cost you that Nob one way or another right? I've been sticking all wounds on runts regardless of source with that thought in mind.
It's situational ofc, all depends on the volume and source of fire directed at them but still, I'm wondering how allocating singles on the Nobz actually pays off. It's a risk innit?

Incidentally, I really like my little group of combi rokkit Nobz. Obviously they're waaaay too expensive to be competitive but they're like super tankbustas. Rerolls on everything, ablative wounds etc. I put them in a wagon with my 5 bustas (that's all I have) and love the extra multi situational punch they have.
Don't match up to the 6 combi skorcha Nobz in the Supa Skorcha Big Trakk (the Fire Engine) ofc, but hey...

You can always kill 1 nob with bolter wounds etc. to use the good armour save.
With only 1 loss you are imune to morale and keep the ammo runts a bit longer.
Depends on mobsize and wargear.

If you have a wounded nob you have to allocate all wounds to him.
A good opponent will kill the ammo runts with cheap stuff before getting the LasCa`s ready for the nobs.

v0iddrgn wrote:
I'm surprised that I don't hear more about Snikrot on this thread. He's the cheapest Character and brings some decent buffs to arguably our best unit. Plus his model is amazing!

The issue with him is whenever I consider taking him my thought is, is he better than another weirdboy or KFF mek (if I need an HQ) or a Painboy, or 10 boyz, or 5 commandos and extra points.




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gungo wrote:
I like him but he doesn't mesh well with the current point of kommandos which are cheap distraction units. His aoe ability is okay but isn't a huge help. He is not especially Killy and he still costs more then a squad of 5extra kommandos. Honestly he would be taken more if he gave all blood axe kommandos within 6in +1 cover sv or of his Melee wpns had a better profile.

The other big issue which will get worse with the codex is he is going to screw up any clan tactics being the ONLY character who doesn't work well with other clans.
I have a feeling the majority of army lists will be evil suns (zhardsnark) or goff (ghazskull, zagstruk, buzzgrob). Unless bloodaxes (snikrot) or deathskulls (mad doc) have a phenomenal clan tactic or relics you likely won't see those clans too often.

There really isn't a lot to talk about now until we get some FAQs or new datasheets from fw or a new codex. But I'm hopeful gw can turn this ship around since we do have a good base to build on now with strong boys, strong psykers, strong characters. It's just our vehicles, some elite units and shooting units that need a boost.

He is an ok buff to big Kommando units, but those units are not durable enough to make that a huge deal. His biggest advantage to me is as an untargetable relic caddy that can grab it turn 1 and get Da jumped back on the same turn or as an untargetable objective holder. He is also decent against vehicles if he can charge, but not amazing.

As for the screwing up clan tactics that really isn't an issue as if you really wanted to use him for his buff you just take a blood axe vanguard detachment for him and his commandos while your other stuff is in a different clan in a different detachment. I think this will be popular way to organize armies by taking best advantage of clan tactics for models with a specific role. For instance if goffs get say +2" to their charge rolls, and Blood axes are -1 to hit for models more than 12" away, you won't take goff lootas you will take blood axe lootas to sit in your back field with more durability.

 Grotrebel wrote:
You can always kill 1 nob with bolter wounds etc. to use the good armour save.
With only 1 loss you are imune to morale and keep the ammo runts a bit longer.
Depends on mobsize and wargear.

If you have a wounded nob you have to allocate all wounds to him.
A good opponent will kill the ammo runts with cheap stuff before getting the LasCa`s ready for the nobs.

I did try this earlier against a deep struck Deathwing squad. Lost 2 fresh Nobz to the 1st 5 boltgun wounds, my remaining runts to the next 3 (2 went down with the wagon) and a 3rd Nob on a final pair of armour fails. Even had Mad Doks 6++ nearby. I figured I'd carry on to the 2nd Nob thinking the 4+ will kick in soon. So much for save rolls, lol.
Did see the logic of the tactic in table top potential tho

Just had a 2k match against my buddy who plays Ynnari and was having real trouble against his Rangers and flyers. The flyers I've resolved myself that I just can't hit and try to ignore them, but the Rangers with their character sniping ability is really irritating. I had my Weirdboy out of LOS, but because he could see the top of his staff was able to shoot him. Even with a Painboy nearby the amount of extra Mortal Wounds from wounding on 6s murdered a Weirdboy and Warboss within 2 turns..

The only real counter I can see there is bringing Ghaz instead, but man... really not fun to have your auras removed despite bubble wrapping 90 boyz. I really hope for some 'obscurment' rules or something for terrain in the upcoming Chapter Approved.

 kowbasher wrote:
Just had a 2k match against my buddy who plays Ynnari and was having real trouble against his Rangers and flyers. The flyers I've resolved myself that I just can't hit and try to ignore them, but the Rangers with their character sniping ability is really irritating. I had my Weirdboy out of LOS, but because he could see the top of his staff was able to shoot him. Even with a Painboy nearby the amount of extra Mortal Wounds from wounding on 6s murdered a Weirdboy and Warboss within 2 turns..

The only real counter I can see there is bringing Ghaz instead, but man... really not fun to have your auras removed despite bubble wrapping 90 boyz. I really hope for some 'obscurment' rules or something for terrain in the upcoming Chapter Approved.

Sucky rules are sucky. I'm hoping they go back to hull/body of model and weapons/ornaments are excluded for LOS.

I just played a 1500 point game against some Primaris Raven Guard, and basically had my boyz tabled at the top of turn 1...

Completely obliterated by "Deep Striking" Raven Guard (Stratagem) Aggressors. Each Aggressor puts out 12 + 2D6 STR 4 shots, and they come in squads of 3-6.

How do you even play around something like that?

Also, same opponent says that Space Marines can use Auspex Scan against Da Jump'ed boys. Does that sound right?

ajax_xaja wrote:
How do you even play around something like that?

By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.

I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...

Each agressor kill around 6 boyz. His mucb do bolter agressor cost?

 Weazel wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:
How do you even play around something like that?

By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.

I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...

Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.

A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.

Could be a real problem for orks.

Spend a vp to steal ini and get 30% chance of insta-winning. They need to be within rapid fire range, right?

Just bring 3 BWs full of boyz and ghaz. You'll likely get first turn and SM anti infantry weapons would be wasted.

I know green tides are more effective overall but it seems that the game is going toward an anti infantry meta since many players fear hordes. Against tons of anti tank weapons mechanized orks lists would struggle a lot but what I currently see is mostly a spam of twin assault cannons, bolter shots, poisoned shots, lasguns.... I don't bring tons of dark lances myself with my DE since against too many possible and common lists they would be invalidated.

 kowbasher wrote:
Just had a 2k match against my buddy who plays Ynnari and was having real trouble against his Rangers and flyers. The flyers I've resolved myself that I just can't hit and try to ignore them, but the Rangers with their character sniping ability is really irritating. I had my Weirdboy out of LOS, but because he could see the top of his staff was able to shoot him. Even with a Painboy nearby the amount of extra Mortal Wounds from wounding on 6s murdered a Weirdboy and Warboss within 2 turns..

The only real counter I can see there is bringing Ghaz instead, but man... really not fun to have your auras removed despite bubble wrapping 90 boyz. I really hope for some 'obscurment' rules or something for terrain in the upcoming Chapter Approved.

Grotsnik might help since he gets his 5+ from his rules then the 6+ from dok tools against mortal wounds. In any case, rangers are pretty terrible at killing mobs of boyz, deff dreads, nauts or battlewagons. Depending on how well his flyers do at killing those, that might be a solution.

ajax_xaja wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:
How do you even play around something like that?

By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.

I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...

Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.

A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.

Could be a real problem for orks.

I think there is a number of approaches:

1) Always use a CP and try to seize initiative twice. Unless playing nids

2) Consider deploying your characters in a trukk to reduce the number of drops. A greentide list can be as low as 7 drops this way.

3) If you have many drops consider screening your bigger squads. In my current green tide list i have 3 30 Boyz squad and 12-15 ten Boyz squads. If I see lots of deepstrikers i can screen my packed blobs with spaced out min-squads. That way he will waste his rapid fire on a 10-boy squad. That won't work against agressors though, because a 6" screen will hurt you too much.

4) If you use KFF and/or painboy, it is pretty straight forward to deploy in a way so that the buff reaches all Boyz. If he deepstrikes his agressor squad and kills 15 Boyz rather than 30, then his agressor squad has not paid for itself.

5) Always remember to drop a comment about the primaris agressors being butt-ugly.

6) Mech or walker lists hard counters agressors but are pretty vulnerable to a lot of other stuff.


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ajax_xaja wrote:
I just played a 1500 point game against some Primaris Raven Guard, and basically had my boyz tabled at the top of turn 1...

Completely obliterated by "Deep Striking" Raven Guard (Stratagem) Aggressors. Each Aggressor puts out 12 + 2D6 STR 4 shots, and they come in squads of 3-6.

How do you even play around something like that?

Also, same opponent says that Space Marines can use Auspex Scan against Da Jump'ed boys. Does that sound right?

Wait a minute? How do each agressor put out 12+2D6 str 4 shots?

pismakron wrote:
Wait a minute? How do each agressor put out 12+2D6 str 4 shots?

Assault 6 + Assault D6 per guy and they get to shoot twice if they remain stationary.

 Weazel wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Wait a minute? How do each agressor put out 12+2D6 str 4 shots?

Assault 6 + Assault D6 per guy and they get to shoot twice if they remain stationary.

I thought they were deepstriking? Deepstriking and disembarking units counts as having moved, right?

pismakron wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Wait a minute? How do each agressor put out 12+2D6 str 4 shots?

Assault 6 + Assault D6 per guy and they get to shoot twice if they remain stationary.

I thought they were deepstriking? Deepstriking and disembarking units counts as having moved, right?

They don't deep strike, they are deployed like any other model. IMO it's OP AF but what can you do.

 Weazel wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Wait a minute? How do each agressor put out 12+2D6 str 4 shots?

Assault 6 + Assault D6 per guy and they get to shoot twice if they remain stationary.

I thought they were deepstriking? Deepstriking and disembarking units counts as having moved, right?

They don't deep strike, they are deployed like any other model. IMO it's OP AF but what can you do.

Sounds like an oversight that needs to be faqed.

ajax_xaja wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

ajax_xaja wrote:
How do you even play around something like that?

By getting 1st turn and clobbering them up with da boyz. But if you're going second you are done for.

I suppose auxpex scan works. Da Jump is worded similarly to any other deep strike rule...

Gah, was hoping that this wasn't the only answer.

A squad of aggressors only costs 129 points, and they're removing a full 30 man blob of boyz easily if going first.

Could be a real problem for orks.

Auspex scan would not work against Da Jump
The rules says "Use this stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battle field as reinforcements..." Reinforcements in the rules refers specifically to units coming in from reserve, the boyz (or any other unit) being Da Jumped are not in reserve, just removed from the table, and set up within 9" of the enemy.

As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save. So to wipe a mob you are looking at 4 squads of aggressors on average. Or 2 if they did not move. So 260 points assuming no KFF or Painboy. Depending on your army you can make it so that all such units can only ever target 1 squad and will then die to counter assault, or can only target vehicles if you have them, or gretchin. It will really back you up in your deployment but with move + adavnce and charge against the agressors and da jump that doesn't matter a whole lot.

Breng77 wrote:

As for aggressors they really should not be wiping full mobs especially if you set up planning to go second. Using a KFF and or Painboy. Even without those though 3 Agressors should kill about 8 boyz, drops to about 6 with KFF/Cover/Painboy, 5 with Painboy and other improved save.

How did you get this numbers? If i get it right, every aggressor kills 5-6 orks. 6-7 if he gets re-rolls of 1-s to hit from a captain. So, a squad of 3 kills ~20 boyz. If there's no boss nearby, the rest will run away. But you should really have a boss near a blob.