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2017/08/20 23:08:59
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
pismakron wrote: Big Gunz are not bad, but they are definitely mediocre. They are just a bit to expensive to be good. And because of the template-nerf, kannon frag grenades and lobbas are absolutely atrocious.
But I disagree that all heavy support choices are useless. The battlewagon, gorkanaut and kmk are almost above average. Their real problem is that hordes of Boyz + Characters are much better against pretty much everything. And that is true of most of the index.
When I run a Gorkanaut the only time it has been even remotely successful is when it had a KFF Big Mek baby sitting it AND I had tons of other heavy stuff on the table, walkers and wagonz. If you take a gorkanaut by itself it will probably die turn 1 to a predator annihilator or 2 camping next to hit/wound reroll characters. Battlewagons are useless now except as a delivery method for Tank bustas. Their isn't any other unit that I would realistically put into a Battlewagon because boyz lose their +1 to attack as soon as they lose 1 model, Burnas suck, Meganobz are about 40% over priced, Nobz are still too fragile and lack offensive power. and a KMK is still utter crap, it is now massively over priced, it actually LOST durability and lost dakka because of the nerf to blast. f
I won't be surprised if GW nerfs boyz and characters instead of buffing everything else because they are that ridiculous.
Super heavy
Kill tank bursta kannon
Kill tank bursta kannon
Kill tank bursta kannon
2k points
With that many Weirdboyz you should have a painboy or two in the list. And while I like the killbursta tank, I think your list would be stronger if you swapped them for Ghaz and more boyz.
2017/08/21 06:32:24
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
I'm still fielding big/mek guns. They're overpriced but are still the best option for backfield scoring that we still need. Not too durable but the separation between grots and guns helps somewhat. The enemy can't wipe them in a single volley. Also, he needs to position correctly to kill those 2 grots - which is not always possible as there are some other guns around somewhere.
2017/08/21 06:57:30
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
I usually bring 2 KMKs too. I really need on objective in my deployment zone because other than the artillery I only have 5 vehicles and 2 bikers. BWs full of boyz are scary for many opponents so they tipycally soak the anti tank, but if KMKs were targeted by some anti tank weapons I'll take it, since I prefer having the vehicles fully operative.
With the current profile KMKs are only good for scoring and act like a bullet magnet in 1-2 turns if the opponent underestimates boyz and bustas in their transports and decides to aim at the artilley instead. For 96 points I still find a room for them, but they should be 15 points cheaper each.
2017/08/21 14:25:01
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Anyone see any value in lifta-droppas? They autohit once again, but are only D6 attacks. Upside is they practically autowound anything T5 or less regardless of their saves, downside is theyre pathetic against multiwounds. Probably the best application i can think of for it is to take out the lascannons. Long as i roll 4+ on a 2D6, thats 1 less lascannon to deal with (per shot). Drawback: 200pts for a BW with just a liftadroppa to kill probably 10 meqs in cover lol if only they also regained their "throwing" aspect on vehicles
kinda comical. They went from oldschool "completely demolishes vehicles, but terrible against anything else" to "terrible against vehicles, shreds any expensive low toughness model)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/21 14:27:11
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2017/08/21 15:25:52
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Vineheart01 wrote: Anyone see any value in lifta-droppas? They autohit once again, but are only D6 attacks. Upside is they practically autowound anything T5 or less regardless of their saves, downside is theyre pathetic against multiwounds.
Probably the best application i can think of for it is to take out the lascannons. Long as i roll 4+ on a 2D6, thats 1 less lascannon to deal with (per shot). Drawback: 200pts for a BW with just a liftadroppa to kill probably 10 meqs in cover lol if only they also regained their "throwing" aspect on vehicles
kinda comical. They went from oldschool "completely demolishes vehicles, but terrible against anything else" to "terrible against vehicles, shreds any expensive low toughness model)
I think GW decided that Orks shouldn't be able to kill Vehicles this edition. Everything that was good against Vehicles sucks except tank bustas who are massively over priced and require a transport to be relevant.
I have been dealing with vehicles with melee primarily. Bustas soften them up enough that hopefully boys+nob can whittle it down upon arriving.
Considering putting my 12 lootas inside 2 supa kannon BW instead of a trukk though. Maybe help cracking em open.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Toying with a more shooty list after reading more about supa kannons. Very pirate-y.
Da plan would be
Loota x5 inside supa kannon BW (x2)
Flash gits +5 runts inside trukk
5 bustas + squig (x2) inside trukk
BW rolla hard top with 17 boys warboss weird boy and banner nob
BW with rolla hard top 2 squads of 10 boys BC nobs
KFF mek on bike
KFF pushes with boys' wagons, bustas or gits maybe can fit into bubble also.
Kannon wagons deploy far away and shoot stuff.
On a BS5+ model that works out to be 7 shots and 2 hits on average. Its closer to being appropriately priced but not yet there, worse, the only units that can take it are super over priced :(
Batting this list around, it outs a decent amount on the table but your opponent will have a lot to handle. Boyz Jumped turn one should be fun with another BW headed up to unload 20 more. Gork's and dreads should make short work of things once in CC (you know, what Orks armies are designed to do best).
Orks struggle at dealing with heavy armor; super heavies like Knights, etc, can be pretty problematic.
The Forgeworld "Primaris Redoubt" listed on the previous page looks like it could be decent against it; 2d3shots, BS3+ (against TITANIC), S16, and 2d6 damage - might put a real dent into them.
Haven't mathed out expected wounds however.
2017/08/22 05:57:29
Subject: Re:Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Since we're all sharing lists:
My local group plays with +1 on the roll to go first, so I'm leaning into MSU to deliver nobz this weekend (someone gave me the idea in this thread for using 9 boyz as ablative wounds for a nob), not tried this before. The 3 trukks should bring the drops down significantly anyway, three 10 man boyz with a weirdboy/waagh banner/painboy stacked inside. The battlewagon holds the entire spearhead detachment as well, so we're looking at 9 drops I think for this list.
I'm planning a mechanised sweep forward, maybe a turn two jump the 30 boyz (hopefully able to hide until they get jumped), with two stranded squads of 10 boyz for objectives. With the stormboyz, trukks, and jump, I'm looking at a pretty good beta strike turn 2 with everything. I like to use trukks to soak overwatch where possible and I've not tried the BW with flash gitz yet, unfortunately I think I have to get Kaptin Badrukk out of the vehicle for the flashgitz to benefit from his aura. Otherwise the beta strike has waagh banner painboy and KFF to protect the vehicles on the way in. In this list the smites from the weirdboyz are really my tank killers, with the trukks hopefully they will find their targets and still be safe with the boyz surrounding them.
MSU gave me the ability to bring two battalions, so I'm running 10 CP with this list. Without the leadership of the 30 boyz I have no warboss or Ghazkull to protect from morale, so I suspect this list will collapse in later turns. But we'll see. I think a warboss instead of kaptin badrukk is strictly correct, but I'm trying this out. If I had the models I would likely bring another 15-20 stormboyz instead of the two stranded boyz squad.
Quick question on the FW Squiggoth and Gargantuan - the Stampede ability says it goes off on a 2. Is that meant to be a 2+ or literally only on a 2? Looked around for a FW ork FAQ but couldn't find anything.
2017/08/22 08:07:33
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
cheesedupree wrote: Quick question on the FW Squiggoth and Gargantuan - the Stampede ability says it goes off on a 2. Is that meant to be a 2+ or literally only on a 2? Looked around for a FW ork FAQ but couldn't find anything.
2+, it was faq'd
2017/08/22 11:03:50
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
On a BS5+ model that works out to be 7 shots and 2 hits on average. Its closer to being appropriately priced but not yet there, worse, the only units that can take it are super over priced :(
Only S8??? Basically a rokkit launcha, with better range and number of shots but with no rerolls against vehicles that tankbustas have and mounted on a super expensive platform. A unit of KMKs is capable of more damage for the same cost.
No thanks. It should be at least S10 AP-3 D6 to be worth taking.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/22 11:05:27
2017/08/22 12:51:15
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
On a BS5+ model that works out to be 7 shots and 2 hits on average. Its closer to being appropriately priced but not yet there, worse, the only units that can take it are super over priced :(
Only S8??? Basically a rokkit launcha, with better range and number of shots but with no rerolls against vehicles that tankbustas have and mounted on a super expensive platform. A unit of KMKs is capable of more damage for the same cost.
No thanks. It should be at least S10 AP-3 D6 to be worth taking.
Even looking at FW, orks have very little high damage, high AP, high strength attacks. The absolute best is stompa/gargantuan melee, but knightspam would kill them before they got to melee anyway
Its like...do you want high rate of fire but crap AP, or low rate of fire and good AP? Damage isnt a value you can look for, practically anything cheap enough to bring does at most 2 damage outside of melee (Rokkits being the best exception, but theyre expensive too just not overbearingly). Even the Bursta Kannon which is S10 AP-4 still does a flat2 damage...really something that massive does the same damage as an autocannon, which can be spammed like nothing else?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/22 13:31:50
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2017/08/22 19:00:19
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
Guaranteed 11 Rokkits with rerolls vs vehicles on t4 6+armor single wound models... so 11 wound pool
Vs
2d6 rokkits at t7-8 with 4+ save and 16 wounds.. averaging 7 Rokkits a turn.. less dps more resilient but can also ferry around small squads (who can use vehicle as mobile gun boat)
Figure not a terrible idea, if you plan to mobilize your lootas anyway to protect them from small arms and chargers.. trukk is 80ish for it to do nothing practically. Add 110 points to it and boom you're holding 6 lootas and have a supa kannon. Granted you'd have to do that twice to transport all 12 lootas so +220 points onto 2 trukks.
60" range nothing to sneeze at either
With my list it's 4d6 kannon Rokkits, 10 busta Rokkits, 1d3 x6 loota shots (x2), 15 snazzgun shots a turn while crossing board to Krump..
Firing power is missing anti infantry at this point though. Not enough snazzgun shots
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not to mention those 11 Rokkits are attached to a movement 5 model... with a 24" range... so 29"+d6" advance threat range... max 35"
Vs 60" range of kannon... with 12" movement for 72" threat range
Just another point for the supa kannon
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/22 14:49:22
Why do you guys need some much dakka in your Ork lists? They designed the army to work better in CC. Find ways to get into CC not pour more points into dakka units that don't work that well.
2017/08/22 15:14:03
Subject: Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh!
srsly though, you can't melee flyers, you can't melee stuff 60" away, sometimes you need to shoot something off an objective that our boys will never get to unless you use your jump to get them there, when it may have been more advantageous to jump them elsewhere and shoot the gits off the Objective
It's just tactical flexibility
boys will outshine about everything point for point, but they can't shoot 60" or assault flyers. Green tide will be most competitive build we have for some time.. I don't think there is fault in trying other ways though. Many of us didn't start playing orks in hopes of playing a horde. Some don't want to buy new models, some don't like painting them all, some don't like moving them all each turn. YMMV. No harm in trying to make shooting work better for us. I think an ork gun line is doomed to fail as it stands but a combined arms force... with a strong shooting phase and strong melee while not overly dedicating to either... could be a healthy build.
Warboss (ghazgul preferably)
KFF mek on bike
Waaaagh banner nob
Weird boy
^ standard characters
Painboy I haven't used this edition but he's better suited to follow ghaz around and heal him over giving FNP to random units nearby. Seems to be better to use mad doc grotsnik over standard painboy with his klaw
Boss buff nearby units with ability to advance and charges also gives +1A if it's ghaz.
KFF gives 5+ invuln to stuff WHOLLY within its 9" radius (bear for vehicles)
Banner nob gives +1 to hit to units within 6" (so boys hit on 2+)
Weirdboy smites stuff, gives +1A to a unit, or teleports them
Boys are your best anti infantry so far.
Can always give a unit of nobs or mega nobs all kombi skorchas to help
Anti about anything is boys boys boys. Drown them in attacks. Boss nobs with big choppa or klaw can whittle down 2+ saves.
The consensus seems to be gunboats aren't most competitive, neither are our vehicles.
Notable mentions are
Battlewagon ard case deff rolla. T8 holds 20 boys, not open topped with ard case. Deff rolla means 6 attacks hitting on 2+ doing S8 -2 AP and 1 DMg each. Boys disembark, wagon moves up and charges boys' target first to absorb overwatch with t8 4+ save.
Kill tank with any big gun is good. Guys transported only hit with shooting on 6s so better to put a melee unit in it or something with kombi skorchas. This thing has Bs 4+ to do work with racks of Rokkits and it's big gun
One of the big walkers has had a lot of success, can find info in this thread. Morkanaught or gorkanaught. Ones supposed to do good, and other not so much.
Dakkajet puts out good dmg to light vehicles and infantry
Lootas are good shooting/DMg vs higher T targets. Tankbustas are the preferred but flash gits are a bit more flexible shooting infantry or vehicles. Can wound anything on a 5+ with 4+ to hit and re rolls.
Nobs with 3 point power stabbas are great anti meq with ap-2
Hopefully helpful. Jidmah (I think) did a great break down of each unit about 40 pages back, lol.
Gorkanaut is generally considered pretty good, though i have good results with triple deffdreads too (not alone, they need a KFF around and preferebly some other vehicle too such as a BW, killakanz, or heck a gork would draw attention too. Once they get melee they shred things, getting there is the problem)
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
6000 points
