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 jhnbrg wrote:

...hit mods and save mods work makes it impossible to balance orks against other armies.

If they make it so 6s always hit it would make a whole lot of difference. Or at least make the Orks always hit on 6s. All the dakka in the world doesn't matter if it's impossible to hit. That "impossible" part bugs me the most of all!

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

Azhday wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

...hit mods and save mods work makes it impossible to balance orks against other armies.

If they make it so 6s always hit it would make a whole lot of difference. Or at least make the Orks always hit on 6s. All the dakka in the world doesn't matter if it's impossible to hit. That "impossible" part bugs me the most of all!

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

It depends on what you want to transport. The battlewagon is for transporting Nobz and Choppa-boyz. A hard-top is mandatory and the deff-rolla can be useful. No guns on the wagon, they are a waste of points.

The trukk is for transporting shoota-boyz or tankbustas. If you need your battlewagon to be open-topped, then use a trukk instead.

I have a question for the group; Zhadsnark or Warboss on bike with Ead Woppa Choppa?

Zhadsnark has big shootas, an extra wound, moves an extra inch and always advances 6. Not to mention a power Klaw hitting on 2s with mortal wound 6s on infantry and monsters.

Warboss on bike is 30ish points cheaper. With the relic his weapon is somewhat comparable and he gets an extra attack (2 of which are attack squig though). His gun is worse but can take kustom shoota or any other shooty weapons for more flexibility.

Is it me or is zhadsnark not an auto include anymore? I'll probably take him because I have the model and it's an evil sun named character but still what are your guys' thoughts?

Azhday wrote:

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

Generally speaking I prefer BWs but also trukks can be useful. I think BWs match better with choppy units since they can be T8 without penalizing the unit embarked. I take BWs for boyz, meganobz and sometimes nobz and trukks for bustas, nobz, burnas and flash gitz, sometimes for boyz as well. At 2000 points I usually bring 2-3 BWs with boyz and meganobz and 0-2 trukks full of bustas or a speed freaks list with 6+ trukks full of boyz, nobz, meganobz or bustas and no wagons.

I'd go with a second wagon, it matches better than having a wagon and a trukk. Two wagons and a trukk can work though.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I have a question for the group; Zhadsnark or Warboss on bike with Ead Woppa Choppa?

Zhadsnark has big shootas, an extra wound, moves an extra inch and always advances 6. Not to mention a power Klaw hitting on 2s with mortal wound 6s on infantry and monsters.

Warboss on bike is 30ish points cheaper. With the relic his weapon is somewhat comparable and he gets an extra attack (2 of which are attack squig though). His gun is worse but can take kustom shoota or any other shooty weapons for more flexibility.

Is it me or is zhadsnark not an auto include anymore? I'll probably take him because I have the model and it's an evil sun named character but still what are your guys' thoughts?

I just did this math recently to fit in another painboy. The 30 point difference for the benefits you mention is not enough IMO. I'm bringing a warboss on bike.

The hidden advantage of Zhad is that his mortal wounds occur on hit rolls, while the relic occurs on wound rolls. This means that zhad further benefits from waagh banners compared to the relic. His damage output is definitely higher under most conditions, and extremely high in specific conditions. I think the weapon range is negligible to irrelevant of a difference. However my list compensates for lack of Zhad with tankbustas and weirdboys, without good high-ap backup you almost need to include zhad with his -4ap alone.

hollow one wrote:
The hidden advantage of Zhad is that his mortal wounds occur on hit rolls, while the relic occurs on wound rolls.

I totally forgot that the WAAAGH banner stacked with this! Mindblown.gif

Not that I ever use a WAAAGH banner lol, but perhaps now....

Thanks for the feedback, I don't have many weirdboyz in my list and in so many games I play Zhad seems to survive on 1 wound (which would obviously mean dead Warboss) so I'll leave him in for now but will probably try replacing with painboy + Warboss on bike in the new year and see how that goes.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


I feel like you were somewhat lucky here. 3 Fire Prisms that move less than half I think would do some serious damage with average rolls using the appropriate shot type even without autarch support or linking.

2d6 shots x 3 = 21 shots average
14 hits average
9(.333) wounds
No saves = 3 dead Nob bikers.

First of all, the bikes were in cover, and he did use the second profile to shoot which is d3 shots and d3 damage. He got 12 wounds in (13 shots, 12 hits, 12 wounds) and killed four nob bikers doing so, IIRC 4 or 5 damage was lost to overkill. The last one was killed by scatter lasers and bright lances. Grotsnik was also in range to provide 6+ FNP, but it didn't do a whole lot.

So I the only thing I got lucky about was one of the wraith lords rolling two's for both his lances.

If they have guide/autarchs support and the Nob bikers are doomed forget about it - with average rolling that should be all she wrote. They ain't cheap units even base, then the the price flies up if you add power klaws and big choppas to the mix.

Don't fall in to the trap of believing Nob bikes to be a tough unit. They just aren't without an inherent invulnerable, FNP or ammo runt ablative wound. They are also real expensive (for Orks) and let's be honest, no-one is scared of 1 or 2 Nob bikers running around the field. Power klaws or not.

I don't see a trap. It's pretty obvious that you get 3 T5 wounds for 14 points per wound. That puts them somewhere above the survivability of lootas, koptas and tank bustas - all units in general considered too fragile, but not terrible.
Regular, footslogging nobs are twice as survivable for their points, and ammo runts are a lot better at wasting mutli-wound shots than simply having 3 wounds. And they are still not considered competitive.
A unit of 10 nobz in a deff rolla battlewagon is around 8.5 points per wound, but gets worse the fewer nobz you take.

So not falling in traps here, I just was used to them suffering instant death from some S10 or destroyer weapon, and they took roughly the same amount of punishment as the battlewagon before they died. That was pretty impressive, as the eldar army had no shooting left to do anything about the warboss that was out in the open after the last nob biker died.

The thing with warbikes is - you'd have had more of them, because they cost 27 ppm instead of 42. Since you get to throw a Nob in for that cost you actually get for 81 pts instead of 126 the following difference; 2 less wounds, 2 less attacks, 1 less strength on the 4 Boyz attacks, 6 lost shoota shots (that should always be put on Nob bikers for free). That's it. I don't understand why anyone would take Nob Bikers over more Warbikes since Warbikes are just as shooty really.

It's pretty simple. S5 AP0 shooting is not worth spending points on, because it will not do meaningful damage to anything that costs more than 8 ppm. If it were, we would put big shootas on our boyz mobs, because that's the cheapest S5 hits we can buy, even if you assume the big shoota boy to be advancing all game.
So if you ignore the dakka guns, Biker Nobz are still nobz, and bikes are just another way to get them into combat. Warbikers are boyz that cost 27 ppm and have to compete with stormboyz and kommandoz.

Strangely and kinda linked to the current discussion Semper's having - both biker units are primary shooting units. They are costed with 6 x str 5 (AP 0 is bogus) shots a piece and you're not gonna use those shots if you're stuck in cqc. For this reason I wouldn't recommend spending too much on Klaws and other cqc weapons on your Nob bikers if you're intent on taking them. And only take them with KFF on Bike (I've found Painboy on Bike to be a waste).

Nob bikers are not a shooting unit. No matter how you kit them, they will never be superior to bikes, buggies or skorchas in shooting. At best they are a melee-shooting hybrid, but their strength is definitely 14" moving PKs, not dakka guns.
Also, the nob bikers were inside KFF range after the BW popped and invisible before that happened. The autarch simply killed the KFF mek with two missiles before the fire prisms used their stratagem, the same would have happened to the biker mek.
As far as my experience goes so far, all pain boyz are a waste, as I'm simply unable to roll decent amounts of sixes. At least Grotsnik kills stuff while providing an aura that does next to nothing.

The actual solution would have been to just run two of them as PK biker warbosses with kombi-skorchas. Those are 118 points a piece, bring 7 T6 wounds each with character protection, hit on 3's, have a free attack squig and provided moral and waagh! auras to infantry.

The reason for me why they are unfortunately in the "utter trash" category is because warbikes do everything they do better and more cost effective. I only ever take them for fluff reasons and they've always felt like a points sink.

This is kind of an indicator that you are using them wrong. If you ignore the close combat options, you are just paying 15 points for an additional wound, when two additional wounds and another dakka gun are 27.
Nobz have been, and always will be, a fast close combat unit. Currently, they are just too expensive (and PKs too weak), but that doesn't change their job.

Also, please, please keep in mind that this game was not a list building exercise. I was full aware that I was taking crap units to the game (I brought a SAG and burnas, if that isn't indicator enough) and that I was going to lose. I could not bring a competitive army because that would have meant simply not finishing the game, since it is virtually impossible to finish a game with 3+ mobs of boyz within 2 hours.
So I was simply giving a bunch of units a go that I wouldn't be using otherwise - discussing how to improve my list is a waste, as the simple answer is "drop everything, run KMK, boyz and weird boyz".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

Azhday wrote:

 jhnbrg wrote:

...hit mods and save mods work makes it impossible to balance orks against other armies.

If they make it so 6s always hit it would make a whole lot of difference. Or at least make the Orks always hit on 6s. All the dakka in the world doesn't matter if it's impossible to hit. That "impossible" part bugs me the most of all!

Unrelated question:
TRUKK vs. BATTLEWAGON?
Which one do you prefer? Which one is more useful or verstile?
I own a BW and got a Trukk on sprues which I planned on turning into another BW with a Rhino and some toy solider tank tracks. So, second BW or first Trukk?

It depends on what you want to transport. The battlewagon is for transporting Nobz and Choppa-boyz. A hard-top is mandatory and the deff-rolla can be useful. No guns on the wagon, they are a waste of points.

The trukk is for transporting shoota-boyz or tankbustas. If you need your battlewagon to be open-topped, then use a trukk instead.

I wouldn't bother with shooting boyz in trukks. They won't kill anything through shooting.
Otherwise I agree. Close battlewagons or open topped trukks. Open topped battlewagons have no advantage over simply fielding two trukks.

One thing jidmah, I don't consider big shootas worth taking, nor do I consider warbikers.

But if you are comparing the two pt for pt you need to factor in that a Big Shoota boy is 12pts T4 6+ save. A Warbiker is T5 4+ save 27pts and has twice as much firepower and 1 more wound. They are roughly a toss up for which is better but neither is worth taking over more boyz and Nob Bikers are just as bad (Though I think in this edition they have the edge over regular Warbikers again)

If Warbikers were 18pts again it would be a different story, they might be worth taking again. That or a massive increase in their firepower/survivability.

Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

If fielding shoota boyz, I'd rather take 9 shootas and one big shoota, over 11 shootas. In firepower this is an upgrade. The tradeoff is one less boy for morale and melee purposes. So I would not say it's not worth it...
It only makes a minor difference though

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

then you have to factor in the cost of that survivability, which would be another 54pts worth of boyz. That is why I did a one for one comparison.

I do agree with you that without AP-1 or some extra shots its useless though. Gitdakka, if you are taking shoota boys in 8th, you aren't playing competitively. A Big shoota at 6pts isn't worth taking in any situation. I just ran a poll in the General forum and the consensus was 1-3pts for a big shoota and even then its more of a side upgrade then anything else. a Big Shoota is 1 S5 shot hitting a turn on average, which in my opinion isn't worth the investment.

 Jidmah wrote:

So if you ignore the dakka guns, Biker Nobz are still nobz, and bikes are just another way to get them into combat. Warbikers are boyz that cost 27 ppm and have to compete with stormboyz and kommandoz.

Warbikes are equivalent to Nobz in terms of durability. T5, 4+, 2 wounds. I don't believe they compete with or fulfil the same role as stormboyz or kommandoz at all. Nor do I think you can just ignore their 6 str 5 shots. They have them and they've been costed with them. If you don't use them you might as well take Nobs and just da jump them up the board.

This is kind of an indicator that you are using them wrong. If you ignore the close combat options, you are just paying 15 points for an additional wound, when two additional wounds and another dakka gun are 27.
Nobz have been, and always will be, a fast close combat unit. Currently, they are just too expensive (and PKs too weak), but that doesn't change their job.

I'm not using them wrong - I'm not using them at all. As I stated; for me warbikes do their job more cost effectively. As I said, if I do take them, it is entirely for fluff. Even with your own example, you spent an extra 36 pts on Power klaws that you never used. That, to me, is a waste. Perhaps you could argue that your opponent wouldn't have focused them if they didn't have the klaws but I think it fools the vast majority of people.

Also, please, please keep in mind that this game was not a list building exercise. I was full aware that I was taking crap units to the game (I brought a SAG and burnas, if that isn't indicator enough) and that I was going to lose. I could not bring a competitive army because that would have meant simply not finishing the game, since it is virtually impossible to finish a game with 3+ mobs of boyz within 2 hours.
So I was simply giving a bunch of units a go that I wouldn't be using otherwise - discussing how to improve my list is a waste, as the simple answer is "drop everything, run KMK, boyz and weird boyz"

I don't think it's a waste. I think it is exactly what we are supposed to discuss in this thread. Is there a scenario in which you think Nob Bikers are even slightly viable? Do warbikes always do the same thing better? Why would you pick one over the other? You made it clear that your list was due to time constraints and testing units you rarely use. Don't take what I said as a flame on you, my intention was to open up a discussion around warbikes vs Nob bikes. I don't think what I said is strictly correct by the way, I'm sure there is a weird edge case when Nob Bikers are more suitable. I want to know what they are.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

then you have to factor in the cost of that survivability, which would be another 54pts worth of boyz. That is why I did a one for one comparison.

I do agree with you that without AP-1 or some extra shots its useless though. Gitdakka, if you are taking shoota boys in 8th, you aren't playing competitively. A Big shoota at 6pts isn't worth taking in any situation. I just ran a poll in the General forum and the consensus was 1-3pts for a big shoota and even then its more of a side upgrade then anything else. a Big Shoota is 1 S5 shot hitting a turn on average, which in my opinion isn't worth the investment.

I do play competative to some extent, not in the sense that I only play prewritten opti-lists, but I have joined tournaments and played to win with units I thought synergiesed well together. Saying that taking shoota boyz excludes me from a competative scene or discussion is not very professional.

I read your poll and it was not consensus. A lot of votes said they were fine at the current points. Consensus is when everyone agrees. 1-3pts had a majority opinion.

To just consider the 54 pts boyz extra wounds for the big shoota is rather short sighted. The whole unit fulfills an anti infantry role together, and the big shoota just adds some s5 shots and some range utility to it.

I believe shoota boyz have a usefull shooting role when comparing to bikes. Less mobile, but more mass of fire and can use da jump. And the shoota boyz have more attacks in melee so the unit is more flexible in that regard than bikes

Gitdakka wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Actually, you don't need to do that at all. The big shoota boy is hidden in at least 10 more boyz, so he is way more survivable than any warbiker you could get, not to mention more range.

On top of that, the boy already is part of any list you would field, so you simply trade an attack (choppa) for a big shoota, so the total investment for your list to get those shots is 6 points.

The reason no one does that, even though it's a minimal investment, is that shooting with a strength value of 5 or less without as much as AP-1 or huge volume (think hurricane bolter) is pretty much useless unless it's free. That affects big shoota much as dakka guns, lobbas or shootas.

then you have to factor in the cost of that survivability, which would be another 54pts worth of boyz. That is why I did a one for one comparison.

I do agree with you that without AP-1 or some extra shots its useless though. Gitdakka, if you are taking shoota boys in 8th, you aren't playing competitively. A Big shoota at 6pts isn't worth taking in any situation. I just ran a poll in the General forum and the consensus was 1-3pts for a big shoota and even then its more of a side upgrade then anything else. a Big Shoota is 1 S5 shot hitting a turn on average, which in my opinion isn't worth the investment.

I do play competative to some extent, not in the sense that I only play prewritten opti-lists, but I have joined tournaments and played to win with units I thought synergiesed well together. Saying that taking shoota boyz excludes me from a competative scene or discussion is not very professional.

I read your poll and it was not consensus. A lot of votes said they were fine at the current points. Consensus is when everyone agrees. 1-3pts had a majority opinion.

To just consider the 54 pts boyz extra wounds for the big shoota is rather short sighted. The whole unit fulfills an anti infantry role together, and the big shoota just adds some s5 shots and some range utility to it.

I believe shoota boyz have a usefull shooting role when comparing to bikes. Less mobile, but more mass of fire and can use da jump. And the shoota boyz have more attacks in melee so the unit is more flexible in that regard than bikes

Consensus means "General Agreement". In other words majority.

I never said you couldn't discuss the topic at hand and I never will because that isn't productive. Another way to do this would be to compare 66pts worth of Shoota Boyz with a Big Shoota to 2 Warbikers. Shoota boyz put out a plethora of S4 shots (18 to be accurate) and 3 S5 shots. 2 Warbikers put out 12 S5 shots (for 12pts less) 12 S5 shots do about the same dmg vs T4 at range as the Shoota Boyz (when you adjust for 12pt reduction) and against T5+ the warbikers are even more effective. The difference to me is that Boyz are better in general because Warbikers are so heavily overpriced. So the durability HEAVILY favors the boyz. As for using them competitively? you are still better off with Choppas and getting stuck in as quick as possible.

I have run all shootaboyz to good effect. It comes as a nasty surpise for Tyranid and Dark Eldar players especially. But Big Shootas are just not worth it. If you put them on all your boyz in a green tide, they could almost pay for another Warboss and another Weirdboy.

 Jidmah wrote:


Consensus means "General Agreement". In other words majority.

I never said you couldn't discuss the topic at hand and I never will because that isn't productive. Another way to do this would be to compare 66pts worth of Shoota Boyz with a Big Shoota to 2 Warbikers. Shoota boyz put out a plethora of S4 shots (18 to be accurate) and 3 S5 shots. 2 Warbikers put out 12 S5 shots (for 12pts less) 12 S5 shots do about the same dmg vs T4 at range as the Shoota Boyz (when you adjust for 12pt reduction) and against T5+ the warbikers are even more effective. The difference to me is that Boyz are better in general because Warbikers are so heavily overpriced. So the durability HEAVILY favors the boyz. As for using them competitively? you are still better off with Choppas and getting stuck in as quick as possible.

Well you did say I was not a competative player because I use shoota boyz. Does that sound inviting to the tactics discussion to you? I think that was uncalled for.
Anyway which unit would be best against t3 targets? Shoota boyz wins over bikes in my book. Sometimes you want to clear cheap screens with shooting to reach more juicy targets behind with melee units.

And against certain targets, like genestealers I would put more value in shoota boyz, as charging multiple boyz units in across the battlefield will only lead to them using interrupt strategem to get free kills, sometimes whole mobs at a time. Shooting works well against such targets, and later forces them to suffer even more from overwatch (which shoota boyz does well). Against targets like marines in cover, melee is better.

It's not like I only use one of the two tactics. I have melee slugga squads and shoota squads. I find uses for both and they can support each other.

Just as a note, I never said you were not a competitive player, I said you weren't being competitive with that build. If you found that to be insulting I sincerely apologize because that was not my intent in anyway.

Shoota boyz do have some merit. The more attack buffs they get, the less noticeable the difference between them and choppaboyz is. And they can occasionally score an extra kill from afar here and there.
(No idea why US flag. In Germany atm)

SemperMortis wrote:
Just as a note, I never said you were not a competitive player, I said you weren't being competitive with that build. If you found that to be insulting I sincerely apologize because that was not my intent in anyway.

Well if that's what you meant, I should not have taken it as an insult, so then no apology is needed. But thanks for making that clear.

Anyway I think I also made it clear why I see shoota boyz as usefull. So to me they can be a part of a competative build as they have their own tactical merits. They are essential in my army and have at times performed in ways slugga boyz would struggle. Such as da jumping behind a screened character and killing him with shootas and rokkits, where slugga boyz would rely on a 9" charge, which is more risky.

Shoota Boyz also perform well against units that you either want to tie in combat or where 20 odd Slugga Boyz would be overkill.

I can think of a few times I've gotten my Slugga Boyz in combat and they just obliterated the opposing unit with like half the damage to spare. Might as well have shot another unit before charging.

Shootas are also useful to ping a dfferent unit with damage before charging after being jumped up the board. They definitely have uses; despite being strictly less killy than their Slugga brothers they can spread damage across more targets and that can be useful.

Shoota boyz are competitive, and 1-2 mobs of shootaboyz in a green tide can be worthy. In fact with da jump shootas are usually more effective than sluggas since they can shoot and charge another target, while slugga & choppa boyz can only charge. Since in competitive games deepstriking boyz are always going to charge screeners or expendable units the extra attack granted by the choppa can be overkill.

If you play with embarked units, slugga & choppa boyz are always superior than shoota ones though.

 Blackie wrote:
Shoota boyz are competitive, and 1-2 mobs of shootaboyz in a green tide can be worthy. In fact with da jump shootas are usually more effective than sluggas since they can shoot and charge another target, while slugga & choppa boyz can only charge. Since in competitive games deepstriking boyz are always going to charge screeners or expendable units the extra attack granted by the choppa can be overkill.

If you play with embarked units, slugga & choppa boyz are always superior than shoota ones though.

I always jump my shoota boyz first, exactly for the reason stated above. Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Shoota boyz are competitive, and 1-2 mobs of shootaboyz in a green tide can be worthy. In fact with da jump shootas are usually more effective than sluggas since they can shoot and charge another target, while slugga & choppa boyz can only charge. Since in competitive games deepstriking boyz are always going to charge screeners or expendable units the extra attack granted by the choppa can be overkill.

If you play with embarked units, slugga & choppa boyz are always superior than shoota ones though.

I always jump my shoota boyz first, exactly for the reason stated above. Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

With the new mob-up stratagem you can jump 40 boyz forward. And those extra boyz you can conga-line all the way back to a Painboy and a Warboss, making your mob a LOT more survivable in your opponents turn. Regards

Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

Sums up my years of playing orkz and wasting time with handfulls of dice.

Sixty dice!
*opponent looks scared*
and... 8 wounds... normal saves....
*opponent looks relieved*

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

Sums up my years of playing orkz and wasting time with handfulls of dice.

Sixty dice!
*opponent looks scared*
and... 8 wounds... normal saves....
*opponent looks relieved*

60 shoota shots will lead to 10 wounds vs T4 or 13.4 wounds vs T3. 15 tacticals will do exactly the same amount of damage within rapid-fire range, while costing slightly more. The difference is that the shoota-boyz will do a massive amount of additional damage if they make the charge, whereas tacticals are totally pointless in CC. Regards

pismakron wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:

Sixty shots will net twenty hits and ten wounds. That's nothing incredible (sad how sixty shots will net us less than ten wounds after saves) but it's some nice insurance in case they don't make their charge.

Sums up my years of playing orkz and wasting time with handfulls of dice.

Sixty dice!
*opponent looks scared*
and... 8 wounds... normal saves....
*opponent looks relieved*

60 shoota shots will lead to 10 wounds vs T4 or 13.4 wounds vs T3. 15 tacticals will do exactly the same amount of damage within rapid-fire range, while costing slightly more. The difference is that the shoota-boyz will do a massive amount of additional damage if they make the charge, whereas tacticals are totally pointless in CC. Regards

Yeah, and that's fine with me, it's just that the rest of our army has no way to get anywhere near that many shots, which is why our shooting is still terrible. Lootas at their best get 45 shots at S7, so 15 hits, which is pretty darn good, but that's a very expensive, unwieldy, and fragile unit that will only get those 45 shots 33% of the time. Shootas are honestly some of the best shooting we have in the entire army and they're only as strong as a unit of TACs (shooting-wise).

I honestly just wish GW would give orks the volume of shots they are famous for having in the fluff. Shootas are our best example of that. A ridiculous number of shots resulting in only average wounding. I'd be happy with that. I would honestly be elated if orks were given at least average shooting.

But I'm not going to keep wishlisting in this thread since it's been done to death here. We're here for tactics.

Speaking of which, the Morkanaut is usually pretty lackluster on its own, but I feel that fielding one along with a Gorkanaut could actually be pretty nasty. That's a lot of wounds to chew through, especially if you do KFF placement correctly. Would it be worthwhile to include both in a dread mob list, or leave behind the morkanaut for more walkers? I'm honestly leaning towards the morkanaut for the armor and KFF coverage.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Warbikes are equivalent to Nobz in terms of durability. T5, 4+, 2 wounds. I don't believe they compete with or fulfil the same role as stormboyz or kommandoz at all. Nor do I think you can just ignore their 6 str 5 shots. They have them and they've been costed with them. If you don't use them you might as well take Nobs and just da jump them up the board.

I really don't get your argument here. Both warbikers and biker nobz have not changed notably since 4th edition, the only thing that changed was their point costs making them more or less efficient and the defensive bonus of their bikes.
The bike "upgrade" in 8th edition index is +1 wound, +1 toughness, 4+ armor, 14" movement and the two dakka guns and costs 21 points for warbikers, 25 for nobz, 26 for a big mek, and 27 for warbosses.
So in vaccuum, is that upgrade worth it? Definitely not, as Semper explained, a single big shoota with 18" range is probably worth around two points, the defensive stats might be worth another 6-8 points, putting it at 12 points, meaning any model in either unit is probably overcosted by at least 9 points. That's the answer to why they don't work.
All the shooting comes from that "upgrade", and since it's overpriced, there is no reason to field it unless you want the 14" movement and defensive stats out of it - and you don't want it for regular boyz.

On top of that upgrade, you have one unit of 11 choppa boyz + pk nob or (for 4 points less) a unit of 7 nobz with 3 PKs. One is mediocre in combat and can clean up weak units or hold objectives, the other a melee death star that will probably put a huge dent into anything they charge.
That's the reason why warbikers are a shooting unit. 12 boyz will not shift anything in combat so they are more valuable when shooting.
Nob bikers should aim to use that shooting as much as possible, but their main goal is driving into combat. Dakka guns might even help with that, because they only thing they are good at is clearing out bubble wrap.
Mathhammer tells us that three PKs have good chance of putting around 8 damage on a vehicle with T7 or T8, and 14" movement makes sure they can be used each turn after the first until they die. Their role is pretty much comparable to winged daemon princes, if it weren't for high point costs.
Jumping regular nobz is superior only because in this edition both regular nobz(+ammo runt) and weird boy are properly costed, and biker nobz are not. In all previous editions, nob bikers have been superior to regular nobz.

TL;DR: Warbikers are a shooting unit for no other reason but that they suck in close combat. Biker nobz are strong in close combat, and two dakka guns don't make them shooting units just because you payed premium for them.

I'm not using them wrong - I'm not using them at all. As I stated; for me warbikes do their job more cost effectively. As I said, if I do take them, it is entirely for fluff. Even with your own example, you spent an extra 36 pts on Power klaws that you never used. That, to me, is a waste. Perhaps you could argue that your opponent wouldn't have focused them if they didn't have the klaws but I think it fools the vast majority of people.

He blew them off the board because they were one of three units that could actually destroy a wraithlord or fire prism and because they would have been in charge range for anything in turn 2. Without the PKs, he would have ignored them, because the wraithlord would have slaughtered them in combat.
Any melee upgrade is a waste if the unit gets killed before the unit reaches combat, so argument is kind of moot.
If you're fielding nobz and you are not buying melee upgrade for them, you are wasting the single reason to use nobz in the first place.

I don't think it's a waste. I think it is exactly what we are supposed to discuss in this thread. Is there a scenario in which you think Nob Bikers are even slightly viable? Do warbikes always do the same thing better? Why would you pick one over the other?

I think I have explained most of your questions above, but a short summary:
- No, I don't think biker nobz are viable currently. If I had fielding a unit of nobz with ammo runts for the same points, would have had 9x 2+1 = 27 wounds (nob bikers were 15) and most likely more damage would have been lost to overkill. The klaw would have survived eldar turn 2 and probably killed the wraith lord that was charged by the warboss.
- Warbikers are worse in my opinion. Their shooting is terrible and they have next to no close combat ability. They really have no role right now. Fast boyz is done better by storm boyz, shooty boyz is done better by lootaz, tank bustas and even shoota boyz.
- Biker nobz can at least kill tough stuff in combat. Since the bike "upgrade" is the overcosted part, being able to field more bikes for the same points is not a good thing. Foot nobz and MANz are better right now, but they are not an auto-lose unit. It's more like fielding lootas instead of KMK. It probably won't work as well, but will still do something.

You made it clear that your list was due to time constraints and testing units you rarely use. Don't take what I said as a flame on you, my intention was to open up a discussion around warbikes vs Nob bikes. I don't think what I said is strictly correct by the way, I'm sure there is a weird edge case when Nob Bikers are more suitable. I want to know what they are.

Nob bikers have always been awesome when they get into your opponent's backfield and start destroying expensive, hard targets. Currently they simply don't have the survivability to do that. If exhaust cloud makes a return (in whatever shape), that might change. As of now, regular nobz reach the enemy almost as fast as they do, so the huge point investment for the extra speed is not necessary.

 Jidmah wrote:
I really don't get your argument here. Both warbikers and biker nobz have not changed notably since 4th edition, the only thing that changed was their point costs making them more or less efficient and the defensive bonus of their bikes.
The bike "upgrade" in 8th edition index is +1 wound, +1 toughness, 4+ armor, 14" movement and the two dakka guns and costs 21 points for warbikers, 25 for nobz, 26 for a big mek, and 27 for warbosses.
So in vaccuum, is that upgrade worth it? Definitely not, as Semper explained, a single big shoota with 18" range is probably worth around two points, the defensive stats might be worth another 6-8 points, putting it at 12 points, meaning any model in either unit is probably overcosted by at least 9 points. That's the answer to why they don't work.
All the shooting comes from that "upgrade", and since it's overpriced, there is no reason to field it unless you want the 14" movement and defensive stats out of it - and you don't want it for regular boyz.

On top of that upgrade, you have one unit of 11 choppa boyz + pk nob or (for 4 points less) a unit of 7 nobz with 3 PKs. One is mediocre in combat and can clean up weak units or hold objectives, the other a melee death star that will probably put a huge dent into anything they charge.
That's the reason why warbikers are a shooting unit. 12 boyz will not shift anything in combat so they are more valuable when shooting.
Nob bikers should aim to use that shooting as much as possible, but their main goal is driving into combat. Dakka guns might even help with that, because they only thing they are good at is clearing out bubble wrap.
Mathhammer tells us that three PKs have good chance of putting around 8 damage on a vehicle with T7 or T8, and 14" movement makes sure they can be used each turn after the first until they die. Their role is pretty much comparable to winged daemon princes, if it weren't for high point costs.
Jumping regular nobz is superior only because in this edition both regular nobz(+ammo runt) and weird boy are properly costed, and biker nobz are not. In all previous editions, nob bikers have been superior to regular nobz.

TL;DR: Warbikers are a shooting unit for no other reason but that they suck in close combat. Biker nobz are strong in close combat, and two dakka guns don't make them shooting units just because you payed premium for them.

I don't get your argument here either - I'm always hearing how awesome Boyz are in close combat and I've had experience of this myself. To the point where I have had far too many attacks and done far too much damage to make full use of. I wouldn't call 7 Nobs with 3 Power Klaws a Death Star either. If I'm taking 12 Warbikers I'm going to take 4 units of 3 so I'm getting 4 Nobs and 8 Boyz. I think I get what you're saying though; they fulfill different functions and your need for this game was for something that could damage armour, which, obviously, Warbikers would struggle with.

I just wonder if you'd have been better with split groups of Warbikers with PK Nobs leading each, even if just 1 or 2 make it - it's more than what managed in your game? Also when you have 4 units of 3 that is 4 possible objectives you can take or contest, you have more board presence, flexibility etc but of course the cost is the kill points you give up. Interesting to consider I think.

He blew them off the board because they were one of three units that could actually destroy a wraithlord or fire prism and because they would have been in charge range for anything in turn 2. Without the PKs, he would have ignored them, because the wraithlord would have slaughtered them in combat.
Any melee upgrade is a waste if the unit gets killed before the unit reaches combat, so argument is kind of moot.
If you're fielding nobz and you are not buying melee upgrade for them, you are wasting the single reason to use nobz in the first place.

As I said above, perhaps your PKs would have reached if they had been split in Warbikes as above?

I understand what you're saying in relation to your game and I particularly agree with your last point - no reason to take Nobz without the melee upgrades of some sort I think.

I think I have explained most of your questions above, but a short summary:
- No, I don't think biker nobz are viable currently. If I had fielding a unit of nobz with ammo runts for the same points, would have had 9x 2+1 = 27 wounds (nob bikers were 15) and most likely more damage would have been lost to overkill. The klaw would have survived eldar turn 2 and probably killed the wraith lord that was charged by the warboss.
- Warbikers are worse in my opinion. Their shooting is terrible and they have next to no close combat ability. They really have no role right now. Fast boyz is done better by storm boyz, shooty boyz is done better by lootaz, tank bustas and even shoota boyz.
- Biker nobz can at least kill tough stuff in combat. Since the bike "upgrade" is the overcosted part, being able to field more bikes for the same points is not a good thing. Foot nobz and MANz are better right now, but they are not an auto-lose unit. It's more like fielding lootas instead of KMK. It probably won't work as well, but will still do something.

I think you're underestimating Warbikes. I definitely wouldn't say they have "next to no close combat ability". This is absolutely bogus. Boyz are considered one of the strongest close combat units in the game. They are simply weaker against targets with higher Toughness, in comparison to Biker Nobs with PKs, although you will always take a Nob in a Warbiker squad and said Nob can also take a PK. Their role is the same as Nob Bikers, they are both a hybrid unit. For me, they are more efficient that Nob Bikers in this role though because as part of their hybrid role they are expected to travel around the board. Your Nob Bikers should be hitting a target and wrecking it before (likely) dying, not flying around to support weaker flanks, grabbing objectives or pestering units. Nobz as you've described (and I agree with) hit hard and focused, Warbikers are floaters in comparison, much more flexible.

Warbikes aren't "fast boyz". They are fast, shooty, tougher boyz. Yes; Stormies are better as "fast boyz" but they aren't half as durable and they have no shooting to speak of. Lootas are better as "shooty boyz" but they aren't half as maneuverable. Tank Bustas are too vulnerable and too obvious a target. Nobz (walking) are much more durable and more killy but they are less maneuverable without outside support.

Nob bikers have always been awesome when they get into your opponent's backfield and start destroying expensive, hard targets. Currently they simply don't have the survivability to do that. If exhaust cloud makes a return (in whatever shape), that might change. As of now, regular nobz reach the enemy almost as fast as they do, so the huge point investment for the extra speed is not necessary.

Yea I agree with you on this too. Exhaust cloud needs to return, or they could have outflank, or they could have an appropriate cost for their bikes.

 Jidmah wrote:

TL;DR: Warbikers are a shooting unit for no other reason but that they suck in close combat. Biker nobz are strong in close combat, and two dakka guns don't make them shooting units just because you payed premium for them.

Bikes and nob bikers are very different units, especially in this edition. Bikers are a pure shooting unit that can tarpit stuff thanks to their speed, and maybe bubble wrap some ork vehicles to save them from plasma rapid fire range, melta range, or charge range while nob bikers are essentially fast nobz that don't need a transport. But considering how much they cost and their real survivability a unit of meganobz in a trukk can be more killy and has twice the wounds including the transport. Bikers compete with trukk boyz, stormboyz but also buggies essentially, biker nobz with nobz and meganobz. At the moment I'd only take skorchas and meganobz with killsaws, maybe rokkit buggies and nobz with big choppas and runts but I think they're both sub-optimal compared to skorchas and meganobz.

I'd never use biker nobz, IMHO they're among the worst units in the codex. They can maybe be viable only if playing PL kitting all of them with pks and kombi skorchas.

When i played against bike spam list, it did the majority of damage in mellee. Shooting was fine too but it's definitely wrong to not take into consideration the choppiness of even a small amount of boyz and nobz.
And they're quite durable vs d1 weapons. If not for the prevalence of plasma, bikers would have been a decent unit. But you can't rely on your opponent not taking d2 weapons. Painboyz might help from time to time, i guess. You get a 30 ish % chance to save a biker. Which isn't that bad.