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ajax_xaja wrote:
This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.

It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.

I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.

Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.

eh, the FAQ specifically calls out being removed from the table and then redeployed via spells...

 davou wrote:

eh, the FAQ specifically calls out being removed from the table and then redeployed via spells...

Not in the 'Tactical Reserves' section or whatever which is what has everyone's panties in a twist.

In fact, RAW there is nothing stopping you DaJumping across board turn 1. Only the most beardy would argue otherwise and it's an interpretation based on assumptions.

ajax_xaja wrote:
This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.

It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.

I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.

Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.

Nothing is "pretty damn obvious".

You know what I thought was fething obvious? BattleWagon's "Mobile Fortress" applying to units inside - aka the transport, and the occupants, don't suffer -1 to hit if the BattleWagon moves; I thought "hey, if the BattleWagon is ignoring the modifier, there's no modifier to pass on to the units inside" and "it makes sense, it would allow it to be a gun platform for shooty units; a veritable "mobile fortress" if you will"; but no - GW screwed Orks over.

This isn't the only ruling where something you think is the way it'll go, because it would make sense, was ruled opposite of what the RAI were thought to be.

What is "pretty damn obvious" however, is that Ork units LEAVE the battlefield, and are PLACED back onto it - the EXACT same way deepstrikers and other such abilities work.

And those btw, are denied round 1.

No complaints about only being allowed 3 KMKs? People were spamming them in their lists were they not?

I'm still amazed by the fact that Big Mek's can't repair vehicles they're embarked into.

They just keep marginalizing Mek units further and further into irrelevance.

ajax_xaja wrote:
This conversation's ridiculous, and people are reading too far into the Deep Strike / Da Jump ruling.

It's pretty damn obvious that GW meant for the DS ruling to be specifically for those in tactical reserve. The unit you're jumping in have already been deployed, and we saw this same discussion happen before with things like Da Jump'ed models being affected by Auspex Array.

I believe the final ruling was that Da Jump'ed units have already been deployed.

Sure it's sloppy wording on GW, but anyone trying to pull that on you is a dick.

From the BRB FAQ:
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the
Gate of Infinity
psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements

^ As written that's just not avoidable.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
No complaints about only being allowed 3 KMKs? People were spamming them in their lists were they not?

That is migated by each KMK slot giving you 6 so you can field 18 KMK if you want(and have money). Albeit does mean there's no point fielding 2 or more spearheads but battallion + spearhead ought to be enough for most. You want that battallion for 5 CP anyway. If you field multiple grot squads maybe even 2 battalions rather than battalion+spearhead.

Oh and having to deploy close to each others in same squadron is bit of a bummer. Harder to spread them around.

I'm inclined to believe that RAW you can not Da Jump turn 1. But I reckon RAI you are. It's a bit of a YMDC situation, might need some clarification. Consider how people used "Auspex Scan" vs Da Jump, I had some opponents insist they were arriving as reinforcements and they could shoot, and I had a TO agree with that as well. It's probably likely Da Jump isn't currently allowed turn 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rismonite wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.

Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!

"Just"?

I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.

@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.

Can we please discuss this further? It is like the only actual tactic topic I've seen show up in the tactics thread after pages of army composition and math nonsense.

You are saying if you can meet the floor with the turret of the battlewagon, you move right on? Has anyone stood infantry on the battlewagon to help make base 2 base with models crowding out a floor of a ruin?

Does anyone pretend that units can make base to base contact over stairs, ladders, or other surfaces between floors of ruin that aren't necessarily modeled to make combat work onto a crowded floor of a ruin?

Can a Battlewagon's turret allow it to suddenly wobblymodel itself onto the upperlevel of anything? Or do battlewagonz park next bikes downstairs? (or was this last edition's rule and I've been missing out?)

You can disembark 3" away from the hull of a BW. So if you buttress your BW against the top level of a building, you get 3" deep of boys on that level. But realistically this is not something you'll ever do. The ruin will not fit 20 boys in 3" deep, and you'll have to deploy most of them on the floor level. It sounds cute and useful, but in reality it is an extreme corner case that is not easily exploitable. Additionally you will not be able to disembark if the enemy fills the entire level up, since you can't stand there when you aim to charge. So the immortal units sitting on level 2 of a ruins is still a problem, fancy BW disembarking or not.

Major ITC tournament TO ruling no Da Jump turn 1. *mouth fart sound*

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Major ITC tournament TO ruling no Da Jump turn 1. *mouth fart sound*

Yeah that follows my auspex scan experience. Everyone considers Jumping units as reinforcements. We would need a specific FAQ that addresses this exact scenario, and it would likely be considered an exception, for us to jump turn1.

Who cares what a single TO rules? Unless GW put something out its irrelevant.

The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.

Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GW FAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Who cares what a single TO rules? Unless GW put something out its irrelevant.

The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.

Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GW FAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.

I would argue that the precedent for all other considerations of removing the board and putting them back is always considering them as reserves (e.g. when considering movement, when considering heavy weapons, when considering buffs, when considering opposing stratagems etc), I would find it very unlikely that this situation is any different. If I wanted to jump turn 1, I wouldn't know what rule to point at if they started pointing at all the FAQs that tell me my boys count as reserves...

edit: If i'm honest I would probably lose the "turn 4 dajump kills boyz" arguement if someone was trying to play it RAW. But as I said, RAI im sure this is considered an exception much like turn 4 jumping. But no where in any rule book does it make that clear.

I'm a little confused. How has the FAQ entry about tactical reserves got anything to do with da Jump? I've read the pdf and it seems to be clear that it is referring to units that are held in tactical reserve only.

What am I missing?

If you're referring to the quote above about "counting as reinforcements", that doesn't mean that they're tactical reserves. It makes no sense.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Who cares what a single TO rules? Unless GW put something out its irrelevant.

The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.

Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GW FAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.

Because that's setting precedence when RAW already supports that...

And the FAQ answer doesn't make any indication it is ONLY for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 r_squared wrote:
I'm a little confused. How has the FAQ entry about tactical reserves got anything to do with da Jump? I've read the pdf and it seems to be clear that it is referring to units that are held in tactical reserve only.

What am I missing?

If you're referring to the quote above about "counting as reinforcements", that doesn't mean that they're tactical reserves. It makes no sense.

You remove unit from table. You then set it up. Unit is no longer on the battlefield when you da jump it before setting it there.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Who cares what a single TO rules? Unless GW put something out its irrelevant.

The FAQ responses to firing heavy weapons or auspex scan only refer to those specific cases. They have no bearing on whether you can move out of deployment zone with da jump turn 1.

Since you aren't arriving from 'Tactical Reserves' I'd say its pretty clear you can, RAW. Unless GW FAQ otherwise I don't see a RAW counter argument, only people making assumptions based on other FAQ answers.

Because that's setting precedence when RAW already supports that...

And the FAQ answer doesn't make any indication it is ONLY for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 r_squared wrote:
I'm a little confused. How has the FAQ entry about tactical reserves got anything to do with da Jump? I've read the pdf and it seems to be clear that it is referring to units that are held in tactical reserve only.

What am I missing?

If you're referring to the quote above about "counting as reinforcements", that doesn't mean that they're tactical reserves. It makes no sense.

You remove unit from table. You then set it up. Unit is no longer on the battlefield when you da jump it before setting it there.

RAW doesn't support it though as I said. People are taking meaning from an FAQ response about COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I've said this before but obviously it bears repeating - the rules are permissive. They give you permission to do something. Unless they explicitly state you count da jumped or another psychic power as reinforcements for all rules purposes then you do not. They're still not tactical reserves either.

Just because you 'remove a unit from the table' it does not mean it becomes a tactical reserve. Nor does it mean it needs to follow the same rules. If people actually read the beta tactical reserve rule it explicitly states 'when units enter the battlefield on a player's first turn'. If you've had a psychic power cast on you, you were already on the battlefield and don't fulfill this criteria.

We should just take this to YMDC. Both sides have valid points.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


RAW doesn't support it though as I said. People are taking meaning from an FAQ response about COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I've said this before but obviously it bears repeating - the rules are permissive. They give you permission to do something. Unless they explicitly state you count da jumped or another psychic power as reinforcements for all rules purposes then you do not. They're still not tactical reserves either.

Just because you 'remove a unit from the table' it does not mean it becomes a tactical reserve. Nor does it mean it needs to follow the same rules. If people actually read the beta tactical reserve rule it explicitly states 'when units enter the battlefield on a player's first turn'. If you've had a psychic power cast on you, you were already on the battlefield and don't fulfill this criteria.

RAW does support it. And again the FAQ response makes no indication it's only for that. Aaaaand whole T1 limitation makes zero reference that it only applies to tactical reserves. It says it applies to units ARRIVING to battlefield on turn 1. Da Jump units are arriving to the battlefield on turn 1 if it's cast on turn 1.

You WERE on battlefield but then you LEFT the battlefield. And then you ARRIVE to battlefield again.

Just because I was at work in the day doesn't mean I'm at work after I have left the work. However when I arrive to work next day I'm...well look at that ARRIVING.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


RAW doesn't support it though as I said. People are taking meaning from an FAQ response about COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. I've said this before but obviously it bears repeating - the rules are permissive. They give you permission to do something. Unless they explicitly state you count da jumped or another psychic power as reinforcements for all rules purposes then you do not. They're still not tactical reserves either.

Just because you 'remove a unit from the table' it does not mean it becomes a tactical reserve. Nor does it mean it needs to follow the same rules. If people actually read the beta tactical reserve rule it explicitly states 'when units enter the battlefield on a player's first turn'. If you've had a psychic power cast on you, you were already on the battlefield and don't fulfill this criteria.

RAW does support it. And again the FAQ response makes no indication it's only for that. Aaaaand whole T1 limitation makes zero reference that it only applies to tactical reserves. It says it applies to units ARRIVING to battlefield on turn 1. Da Jump units are arriving to the battlefield on turn 1 if it's cast on turn 1.

You WERE on battlefield but then you LEFT the battlefield. And then you ARRIVE to battlefield again.

Just because I was at work in the day doesn't mean I'm at work after I have left the work. However when I arrive to work next day I'm...well look at that ARRIVING.

This has got to be one of the most stupid arguments in the history of stupid arguments. "It doesn't say I can't use it for that." is not an indicator that you can. It doesn't say in the overwatch rules that I can apply them to any shooting attack as I want but we all know I can't. It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that my warboss can't suddenly decide to start firing pink horrors out of his backside but we all know he can't.

The rules are permissive. You can't take a ruling for one thing and apply it to another, that's not how the game is structured.

RAW doesn't support it at all, as I've explained time and time again. I don't know why you're struggling so hard with this but it might be because you're not even quoting the rule word for word. It says (as I said above) when units 'ENTER THE BATTLEFIELD'. If my unit is already on the battlefield because they've had a psychic power cast on them, they cannot enter again. They've already entered. The rule is also entitled "TACTICAL RESERVES" so something tells me, I reckon, that it applies to "TACTICAL RESERVES".

By your logic my units embarked in transports are automatically destroyed after turn 3. That's not right is it? Of if they enter a transport from turn 4 onward they are also destroyed. Or if they are "Da Jumped" after turn 4 onward they are destroyed. We know all of this is false and they are ideas built on exactly the same assumptions as what you're doing here.

This is unbelievable, honestly.

I can't wait for the official ruling to clarify what we should all know already.

"any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."

in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:


RAW doesn't support it at all, as I've explained time and time again. I don't know why you're struggling so hard with this but it might be because you're not even quoting the rule word for word. It says (as I said above) when units 'ENTER THE BATTLEFIELD'. If my unit is already on the battlefield because they've had a psychic power cast on them, they cannot enter again. They've already entered. The rule is also entitled "TACTICAL RESERVES" so something tells me, I reckon, that it applies to "TACTICAL RESERVES".

Ah so because I left from work I can't enter it again because I have already entered?

You ignore the fact that the unit left the battlefield. It is no longer there. Remove models. Take them to other room.

Then you bring back. What that is if not entering?

What it is when you come to where you aren't? you weren't on battlefield anymore. It's not relocation within battlefield. You aren't there. You can't relocate within something you aren't on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZoBo wrote:
"any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."

in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?

Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.

Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.

You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.

tneva82 wrote:

 ZoBo wrote:
"any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."

in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?

Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.

Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.

You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.

but the unit was first "deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone"...

 ZoBo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 ZoBo wrote:
"any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."

in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?

Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.

Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.

You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.

but the unit was first "deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone"...

So? The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere. If you arrive on the first turn you must deploy in the deployment zone.

Unless you are arguing that units undergoing Da Jump don't deploy, in which case how do you place them on the table?

I don't understand how you don't see the significance of a major ITC event taking up this ruling.

It's going from "lol, no one would ever think that" to "if you go to a tournament, there is a definite chance turn 1 da jump won't be allowed"

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 ZoBo wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 ZoBo wrote:
"any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)."

in order to use Da Jump on a unit, the unit "has been deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone". Why is there an issue here?

Yes you were. Then you leave. Poof. You are no longer in battlefield. To be there again you need to enter it. You can't be in battlefield without entering it. But with da jump you leave it. if you don't enter it then guess you died then and unit is removed.

Except wait. Da Jump says you arrive there. Thus your first quote applies.

You aren't relocating within same battlefield. You are entering it. In first turn.

but the unit was first "deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone"...

So? The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere. If you arrive on the first turn you must deploy in the deployment zone.

Unless you are arguing that units undergoing Da Jump don't deploy, in which case how do you place them on the table?

"The quote doesn't specify that once a unit is deployed it can then be deployed anywhere."

no, it does not specify that. it does however, specify that the unit must be deployed wholly within the controlling player's deployment zone...which it was. and then you use da jump on it to set it up elsewhere on the table...this is what differentiates it from things like deepstrike and such.

 Rismonite wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Well, a battlwagon doesn't have a base, so you measure from the hull. Without turrets you can easily get within 1" anything sitting on the first floor, if you build like my avatar shows, you can reach second floor as well.

Jidmah wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Did you just invent use for battlewagon? 2nd floor camper clearer!

"Just"?

I have disembarked from the top of my battlewagons into ruins since 6th edition.

@koooaei: I can't find it right now, but in some designer commentary they clarified that only actual hull counts, not stuff attached to the hull. For GW's imperial sector ruins a trukk will most definitely not be able to reach second floor.

Can we please discuss this further? It is like the only actual tactic topic I've seen show up in the tactics thread after pages of army composition and math nonsense.

You are saying if you can meet the floor with the turret of the battlewagon, you move right on? Has anyone stood infantry on the battlewagon to help make base 2 base with models crowding out a floor of a ruin?

Does anyone pretend that units can make base to base contact over stairs, ladders, or other surfaces between floors of ruin that aren't necessarily modeled to make combat work onto a crowded floor of a ruin?

Can a Battlewagon's turret allow it to suddenly wobblymodel itself onto the upperlevel of anything? Or do battlewagonz park next bikes downstairs? (or was this last edition's rule and I've been missing out?)

You completely misunderstood me.
Assuming you have a GW imperial sector ruin with bottom level, first floor, second floor and a unit of scouts is completely covering the second floor, so any model with a base trying to charge up the ruin cannot come within 1" of them.
If you now declare a charge with your battlewagon, you simply park it in front of the ruin, with the long side of the battlewagon touching the ruin wall. It does not move up any level, because as a vehicle, it is explicitly forbidden from doing so.
The battlewagon does not have a base, therefore you measure from its hull. When you measure from the base from one of the scouts to the turret, you'll find that the battlewagon is within 1" of the scout and has thus succeeded its charge. The battlewagon driver then proceeds to unattach the deff-rolla from the battlewagon, carry it to the top of the ruin and smash the scouts with it.
Disclaimer: Exact placement of the battlewagon depends on each specific ruin, but with most ruins you can find a way to get within 1", since some of the enemy models need to be very close to walls and edges to block any enemy models from moving up.

It works the same way for disembarking. For example, if someone has a screen sitting in cover on the bottom floor of a ruin, you can disembark into the first level of the same ruin without moving the battlewagon within 1" of the screen, assuming you can fit all the models within 3" of your battlewagon model. This works with any model that does not have a base.

It's also important to note that you are not allowed to move models onto other models for any reason. Therefore orks cannot stand on the wagon in order charge up a ruin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hollow one wrote:
We should just take this to YMDC. Both sides have valid points.

This. Please leave this thread for tactics.

Ok back to ork tactics

Now that the Meka dread has most of the options for the mega dread added in the faq and forgeworld has a free shipping on orders of £100. I want to order a Meka dread (w mega dread body since I think it looks better). I think I’m getting the kill kannon arm as it’s a great stand in for rattler or killkannon arm and I believe those are the best weapons for the Meka dread but should I pick up the kill saw arm or the klaw? I’m leaning toward the klaw becuase it looks better imho and kill saw doesn’t have rules yet but I think it may in the future. So what do you guys think is the best loadout? And is the mega charga ability and KFF a free option since they have no points profile? So it’s 255pts for a Meka dread with killkannon a rippa klaw and Kff?

I think the chinork is by far our best transport for tankbustas. I just have no desire to spend a ridiculous amount on hard to build resin models that may not have a use when they decide to discontinue it. At least the Meka/mega dread is a decent standin for an exceptionally large deff dread. I also only need one of them to form either a good melee unit or a great Kff bubble unit.

Warboss on bike w headchoppa
20x stormboys (nob w bc)
Zhardsnark
Meka dread w kff, killkannon and rippa

Chinork x2
Tankbustas x2 8+2 squig

30 boys plus 10 boys nobs w bc (use mob up strat and jump them)
Weirdboy (da jump)

Kmk x4

That seems like a relatively decent base for an army list.
2 warboss bikers and storm boys with a kff moving Meka dread. Should be enough melee ability and durable bullet sponge.
The 40 boy blob should be fairly durable too.

Nick Nanavati confirms no da jump turn 1.

Who is Nick Nanavati_

He also reckons that Orks will be fine and that they only received buffs.

Nor does he work for GW so his opinion, though valuable, is not gospel.

aaaaaaaand FLG said the same. RIP da jump turn 1 until more GW clarification

Yeah, we really have to wait for an official word from GW on the Da Jump ruling. I can honestly see validity to both sides of the argument, and unfortunately it is not clear as mud because GW has consistently shown that they do not know how to write clear rules. My hope is that abilities such as Da Jump are still useful turn 1, but I can honestly see GW going either way with an official ruling.