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 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Niiru wrote:


Lol aww, you think you're scary.

I have a couple people on here on ignore (not you), and it's not because I'm scared of what they say. It's not even because they make good arguments. It's because most of what they say is wrong, and then when you correct them they get childish and abusive.

So behave yourself, and I won't ignore you. Less of that "you don't know what you're talking about" nonsense, especially when you reply to a post you clearly didn't understand.

And tell me what I understood wrong:
I saw people saying "the unit has to be completely broken in every way to see competitive play". Which is completelly wrong. There are plenty "OK" units seeing competitive play if they have a niche to fill in the army. Most of the daemon units do not have a niche to fill since they're all the same "beatstick" type of unit.

And I'm not the one who started the ignore discussion. I just felt like I had to respond to that since it involved me.

ANYWAY...
Let's try this again:
I just got word that we'll be getting new models and rules(!). That's probably because the Daemon codex was rushed out for Nurgle. And now we'll get more Khorne and Slaanesh models and if my source didn't mistype - we'll get new rules, which could be a summoning overhaul to make it like Sigmar where you can always summon stuff and don't need reserves.
This is more than just "the revealed fiend" or the "slaanesh vs khorne box", btw. So yay, daemons might not be boring as fk to play in competitive kinda sorta maybe perhaps I hope.

There might be an update for rules for the new slaanesh models, but that's not very likely. The new fiend will likely just keep the same rules, with some points tweaks.

There certainly won't be a whole new daemons codex release with new summoning rules, at least not anytime soon. There will be a re-made space marine codex before they start on any of the other factions.

They may well release 'beta summoning rules' in the next big FAQ thought, but that won't be until sometime next year. A new daemons codex... likely be 2020 at the soonest.

Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way

I mean sure, eventually everyone will get new models and new rules, he's bound to be right eventually. If he said "in 2019" then it would be news. But 'at some point in an undefined amount of time' is not news, its clickbait without the clicks.

It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Ignores in dakka are useless. You keep seeing the person being quoted anyway. It's better to skim messages than to ignore people. Are you that afraid that my messages might hurt your feelings or something that you can't just skim them? To each his own I guess.

Also ignoring me is probably the worst thing you can do since I post all the time(so you won't understand half the conversation) and I post unit analysis(always substantiated by tournament results/mathammer or top player opinions) and leaks.

Edit: you actually quoted me talking about screamers without me being quoted. Meaning you clicked to view my message anyway. What's the point of the ignore then? To make you click every time I post something, lol? Ok, thanks for the effort I guess. Grow a thicker skin, were you really that sad that I said a unit you like sees no play and is suboptimal and needs a buff?

you are trying to teach garagehammer players (or casual players like they admit to be) how competitive game is, is a waste of time, they cant get it cause they dont play at that level, so yes screamers demonettes GD and so on are viable, is not a better or worse way to play is just one cant understand something is not used to face, when you go at serious tournaments with your awesome garagehammer list and rolled over every single game you understand... anything depend how you want play, my 2 cents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:
It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.

they are still good, drop them in AiP and buff them, they can single hand kill an IK with virulent blessing on them, pity they have ac 4+ an ap0 so if you are bit unlucky with die rolls or opponent save above average they deliver too few damage for 300+ points unit, btw they have a massive board control and not that easy to dislodge, im always undecided between them and letters, but hit on 2 and ap-3 usually makes the difference, so i go with 30 letters last but not least a full infantry list makes all your opponent antitank worthless, actually most are setup against IK's.

Niiru wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way

I mean sure, eventually everyone will get new models and new rules, he's bound to be right eventually. If he said "in 2019" then it would be news. But 'at some point in an undefined amount of time' is not news, its clickbait without the clicks.

Yes, but it's someone I trust 100%. We'll get new rules soon, I think.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Here's the quote: daemons are getting new models and new rules. This is not from a hype man, so that's actually NEW RULES. So I think they'll change daemons in a big way

I mean sure, eventually everyone will get new models and new rules, he's bound to be right eventually. If he said "in 2019" then it would be news. But 'at some point in an undefined amount of time' is not news, its clickbait without the clicks.

Yes, but it's someone I trust 100%. We'll get new rules soon, I think.

Fair enough then. I would believe that new slaanesh unit rule updates might come along with the Emperors Children codex, that's what I think is the most likely. Followed by Khorne maybe getting some updates with the World Eaters codex release.

I just don't think it'll be a full 'codex daemons' update, just updates for units that are in those CSM legion codices. Still would be good though, especially for slaanesh.

Regardless of if you provide good unit analysis or leaks, being a dink about stuff is still being a dink.

But on the note of Wrath vs Rapture, my money is on new fiends, flesh hounds, and heralds. I dont expect wide overhauls, at least not for Khorne. The Khorne models by most standards dont look that bad for their age, but the flesh hounds and heralds are the odd ones out in how poorly they translated. Being failcast doesnt help.

Salt donkey wrote:
It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.

Yeah, they still look completely viable, certainly not pushed mine down the to-do list, exploiting FLY on the charge seemed a bit of a tall order for nine monster bases anyway

 vaklor4 wrote:
Regardless of if you provide good unit analysis or leaks, being a dink about stuff is still being a dink.

But on the note of Wrath vs Rapture, my money is on new fiends, flesh hounds, and heralds. I dont expect wide overhauls, at least not for Khorne. The Khorne models by most standards dont look that bad for their age, but the flesh hounds and heralds are the odd ones out in how poorly they translated. Being failcast doesnt help.

Keeper of secrets is probably on the cards and I can see a heavy suport unit maybe as slaanesh lack that atm a little. A new codex would make sense otherwise you get a free pdf with possibly 4-5 new units in.

Part of me does question why the daemons loci rules/relics etc. Weren't included in death guard or thousand sons though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:
It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.

"they are still good, drop them in AiP and buff them, they can single hand kill an IK with virulent blessing on them, pity they have ac 4+ an ap0 so if you are bit unlucky with die rolls or opponent save above average they deliver too few damage for 300+ points unit, btw they have a massive board control and not that easy to dislodge, im always undecided between them and letters, but hit on 2 and ap-3 usually makes the difference, so i go with 30 letters last but not least a full infantry list makes all your opponent antitank worthless, actually most are setup against IK's.

u might be right, btw overall letters are better , then if i would face a list like that i doubt who pilot it will be skilled like Sean is so i might have a chance anyway. Pretty impossible make a demon list strong against anything.

Greater Daemons need a huge overhaul so they don't melt in one turn.

 dan2026 wrote:
Greater Daemons need a huge overhaul so they don't melt in one turn.

every big guy melts in 1 turn in this edition, they just should cost lot less then they become playable, if they die is ok anyway....

Dudeface wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Regardless of if you provide good unit analysis or leaks, being a dink about stuff is still being a dink.

But on the note of Wrath vs Rapture, my money is on new fiends, flesh hounds, and heralds. I dont expect wide overhauls, at least not for Khorne. The Khorne models by most standards dont look that bad for their age, but the flesh hounds and heralds are the odd ones out in how poorly they translated. Being failcast doesnt help.

Keeper of secrets is probably on the cards and I can see a heavy suport unit maybe as slaanesh lack that atm a little. A new codex would make sense otherwise you get a free pdf with possibly 4-5 new units in.

Part of me does question why the daemons loci rules/relics etc. Weren't included in death guard or thousand sons though.

They weren't included partially because they were simply there for summoning purposes imo. The datasheets were just to fill up space, and since they still think (for some reason) that summoning is actually used, they give you the daemon datasheets for quick and easy reference.

 blackmage wrote:
u might be right, btw overall letters are better , then if i would face a list like that i doubt who pilot it will be skilled like Sean is so i might have a chance anyway. Pretty impossible make a demon list strong against anything.

True. I doubt many lists will be able to handle Sean's easily, At least we ignore the haywire part of the bikes (unless you like soul-grinders).I guess i just disagree that letters are objectively better. They are better at killing stuff sure, but its pretty clear which unit is more durable, especially against lists like Sean's which have a lot of S4 shooting. So my overall point is the two units serve different functions. The drones primarily control the board, whereas the blood letters kill things. Both can do the other units primary job, but are less effective at it. I just think drones are more effective at killing than letters are at surviving/holding the board, so I slightly prefer them.The exception for this is in an all hordes list, where the drones will attract all the multi damage weapons that would normally be ineffective. So my conclusion is that both units do different things, but drones are slightly better at their role than letters are at theirs..

of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.

The problem with plague drones is that they have worse durability than plaguebearers(they also often do less damage as they fly forward and scrivener can't keep up) and do less damage than bloodletters. They aren't focused, they don't really fill a role. Also, when you have them it gives your opponent something to shoot anti-tank at, which is not what you want - if you can lose 7 pts to an anti tank shot instead of 34, you do it.

The FLY change basically makes them only attack the screen, which they're OK against, but if the terrain is ruin heavy(which most tables are) it gets really annoying to move big drone units.

 blackmage wrote:
of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.

Yeah I saw your list posted elsewhere, and I do think letters are better for that list. Full disclosure I'm currently running mine in a way different type of list

Salt donkey wrote:
I

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Death Guard) [69 PL, 1248pts] ++

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Nurgle [9 PL, 180pts]: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 6. Arch-Contaminator, Fugaris' Helm, Malefic talon, Warlord, Wings

Typhus [9 PL, 175pts]: 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 5. Putrescent Vitality

+ Elites +

Blightlord Terminators [27 PL, 473pts]
. Blightlord Champion: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
. Blightlord Terminator: Flail of Corruption
. Blightlord Terminator: Flail of Corruption
. Blightlord Terminator: Blight launcher, Bubotic Axe
. Blightlord Terminator: Blight launcher, Bubotic Axe
. Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
. Blightlord Terminator: Balesword, Combi-bolter
. Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
. Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter
. Blightlord Terminator: Bubotic Axe, Combi-bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger

Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger

Plagueburst Crawler [8 PL, 140pts]: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Daemons) [38 PL, 752pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Chaos Allegiance: Nurgle

Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic)

+ HQ +

Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 189pts]: Malefic talon, Warp bolter, Wings
. Nurgle: Miasma of Pestilence

Poxbringer [4 PL, 70pts]: Corruption, Virulent Blessing

+ Troops +

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings [3 PL, 54pts]: 3x Nurgling Swarms

+ Fast Attack +

Plague Drones [16 PL, 331pts]: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos, 8x Plague Drone, Plaguebringer

++ Total: [107 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

It’s a big bummer that deathguard and daemon miasma work on different things. The plan with this list is to run 3 blocks of tough things at my opponents. I run the flies with the Nurgle Deomon prince, typhus with blightlords, and the tanks with the poxbringer and warlord. I expect to lose 1 or 2 of these bricks, but not all three.

So as you can see my list kind of does the opposite of your list, making anti infantry guns less good.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
The problem with plague drones is that they have worse durability than plaguebearers(they also often do less damage as they fly forward and scrivener can't keep up) and do less damage than bloodletters. They aren't focused, they don't really fill a role. Also, when you have them it gives your opponent something to shoot anti-tank at, which is not what you want - if you can lose 7 pts to an anti tank shot instead of 34, you do it.

The FLY change basically makes them only attack the screen, which they're OK against, but if the terrain is ruin heavy(which most tables are) it gets really annoying to move big drone units.

I'll agree with somewhat annoying to move, I think you are being somewhat disingenuous when you say that they don't fit a role. They clearly do, a fast hard, to kill, board controller. Sure plauge bearers can be a lot harder to remove (although remember that plague bearers take a lot of damage from mass S4 and S5 attacks, and have more problems with moral then drones.) but they are also a heck of lot slower. There is a large difference between 7 inches of walking movement and 10 inches of fly movement. The 7 inches also assumes you will have a scrivener nearby, not always a guarantee later in the game.I'm still confused as to why blood letters keep getting compared to drones. Is everyone running pure horde daemons? There's got to be more lists than just that.

I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.

Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.

I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.

Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.

I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.

2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.

I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.

Salt donkey wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.

Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.

I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.

2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.

I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.

Try hammer and anvil. You can be 36''+ away from someone, so no 22+3d6 won't make it. Your opponent has no reason to deploy on the front line to give you free charges unless he's also running a melee army.
Bloodletters are actually OK at surviving since if they can be shot on my opponent's turn - I did something very very wrong. Bloodletters are IMO better at repositioning themselves after charge because they go 6+2d6+1 charge, they can go through ruins in fight phase and they have small bases so they can fit through gaps. The minor shooting is honesstly irrelevant. I don't want anything to attract and absorb any firepower turn 1 that aren't Plaguebearers.
Fast FLY unit durability doesn't matter nearly as much. They can easily hop arround between ruins (with LoS blocking first floor) and be immune to fire that way (See ynnari shining spears). And plague drones, unless you're running them MSU do not have maneuverability. They cover so much board space that you can't hide them and you can't sniper characters with them.

To explain the lack of maneuverability - plague drones allow your opponent to make a giant circle around his characters because your 7-9 plague drones won't be able to fit inside without being within -1 of the enemy or without being outside unit coherency. Small bases, like shining spears limit your opponent's movement. They have to very carefully surround their characters.

PS: I don't think plague drones are bad btw. They're fine.

Salt donkey wrote:
It’s weird to me that people think Plague drones won’t be competitive after the fly nerf.
They are IMO still the best unit in the codex, despite the fly change. For the around same cost as a greater deamon, I can get a maxed out 9 man unit. That unit has 36, T5, 5++, 5+++ wounds. Additionally the 36 wounds are split across 9 guys, meaning that a lot multiple damage weapons will waste damage overkilling guys. Best of all, the unit can benefit from a ton of buffs. From defensive buffs like warp surge and -1 to hit, to offensive ones like virulent blessing, +1 hit 6s explode,and re-roll ones to hit, drones can have it all. This means it’s very possible to have them be both unkilllable and hard hitting in melee, which is rare for Daemons. I don’t leave home without at least 9 drones and will try to do more if able.

I can't agree enough. I've got 21 plague drones, and every time I've plopped them down, I've won by turn 3. I've faced several lists, from smash captain spam to knights and dark eldar. Plague drones are tough, fast, and you cannot hide. The only downside is lack of ap, but all you need is one of those 5dmg attacks to go through and you have done well.
As for the new models and rules, I can see Flesh hounds, Furies, Fiends and KoS getting some new models. New rules will come with chapter approved no doubt. A re-work to summoning would be wonderful. Right now its too high risk for too low reward.
To weigh in on ignores, I ignore several users, many people on dakka just don't contribute to conversations in a manner that isn't argumentative. There is, and never will be, a perfect list, as we have personal experiences, different metas, and different playstyles. Statistically a unit may be the best, but that doesn't make it the best for my area and my style. So the people who stir up gak and put others down for their opinions get ignored.

Also, Bloodletters and other lesser daemons got upgraded to ship with 32mm bases. No more 25mm if you buy new ones. I also just noticed that someone will come up with the worst possible scenario to prove their point that a unit isn't great, but assume the best cases for the units they like.

 blackmage wrote:
of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.

I’ve probably just missed it, but what is your PB/BL infantry list? I’ve got most of the models to run something like that so it would be good to get a look. Cheers.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

Salt donkey wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I'm comparing plague drones to bloodletters because they fit the same role: get to combat and kill stuff.

Plague drones take 2-3 turns of shooting before getting there. Bloodletters take 0 since they're not on the table to begin with. And once they both get there - bloodletters do a lot more damage.

I wouldn't say 3'' is "heck of a lot slower" especially since it's:
10+D6+1 compared to 7+D6+1. 10'' movement is not "fast", it's just "OK" in a world of eldar, knights and tyranids.

2-3 turns of shooting? try 1-2 (unless you think 22 +3d6 inches won't get the drones close enough to charge anything).It's a good thing those blood-letters wont take any shots while they are in reserve, because they die to stiff breeze. This is why I am saying these units preform different functions. I can expect letters to be able to drop down turn 2 and kill just about whatever they can charge. I can't expect them to; survive for very long after that point, reposition quickly after coming down, do any minor shooting, or attract and absorb any firepower turn 1. I can expect drones do all these things. Sure they can't get an easy charge out of deepstrike, or be as effective in CC, but that's why they are a different unit than letters. There is more to this game than what unit can "get to combat and kill stuff" the best. To put it bluntly, you are underestimating the value of maneuverability and durability.

I'll finish my point with this. Unit flexibility is a trait that easy to underestimate in the land of theory, but very valuable in actual games. If you haven't had the chance to field a large amount drones I'd highly recommend it. They will likely pleasantly surprise you.

Try hammer and anvil. You can be 36''+ away from someone, so no 22+3d6 won't make it. Your opponent has no reason to deploy on the front line to give you free charges unless he's also running a melee army.
Bloodletters are actually OK at surviving since if they can be shot on my opponent's turn - I did something very very wrong. Bloodletters are IMO better at repositioning themselves after charge because they go 6+2d6+1 charge, they can go through ruins in fight phase and they have small bases so they can fit through gaps. The minor shooting is honesstly irrelevant. I don't want anything to attract and absorb any firepower turn 1 that aren't Plaguebearers.
Fast FLY unit durability doesn't matter nearly as much. They can easily hop arround between ruins (with LoS blocking first floor) and be immune to fire that way (See ynnari shining spears). And plague drones, unless you're running them MSU do not have maneuverability. They cover so much board space that you can't hide them and you can't sniper characters with them.

To explain the lack of maneuverability - plague drones allow your opponent to make a giant circle around his characters because your 7-9 plague drones won't be able to fit inside without being within -1 of the enemy or without being outside unit coherency. Small bases, like shining spears limit your opponent's movement. They have to very carefully surround their characters.

PS: I don't think plague drones are bad btw. They're fine.

Well I mean... I'm not sure it's possible for someone to put their entire army 36" away, wouldn't they have to fit their whole gunline (and they'd have to be playing a totally static gunline, so Mars Admech or Girlyman) into the very corner of their deployment area. Which would pretty much mean their whole army would be maybe 2 Dunecrawlers + Cawl.

Realistically, at least some of their army will be ~24-30 inches away, and so it would be turn 2 charges pretty much every time.

Bloodletters would of course still be a little better if you pay to deepstrike them, as they'd be safe turn 1 and then have an almost guaranteed turn 2 charge with blood banner. But this costs 2 CP to pull off, which certainly adds to their cost, and if they do fail their charge (or when the opponent falls back next turn) they'll be deleted from the board by the gunline (as they'd only be able to charge chaff from deepstrike anyway more than likely, unless you've removed the chaff by then but that will be more likely a turn 3 charge making them slower).

Course this is a stupid argument you're making in general, because they're totally different units with totally different roles and strengths. I'm not sure why you wouldn't run them both.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
of course letters are glass cannons, i run a whole infantry list with 90pb's characters behind them (princes spoilpox poxbringer sloppity) and 30-60 letters, i guess in that kind of list letters works better, heavy weapons are a joke against that list and here around lot are setting up for IK's so lot of heavy weapons.

I’ve probably just missed it, but what is your PB/BL infantry list? I’ve got most of the models to run something like that so it would be good to get a look. Cheers.

this is the list


18 cp at start a whole Korne detachment to get charge re roll and tons of resilient bodies for board control, crimson crown+warlord trait is huge, hit on 2+ re rolling 1's on charge and generate extra attacks on 6's, have the herald warlord is bit risky cause he is a glasscannon, sometimes i make Nurgle Dp or spoilpox warlord, that's safer.
tyr 2 times 20-0
orks 20-0
tau 18-2
necron 2 times 18-2
mixed Sm 18-2 16-4 (very unlucky game) 20-0
De 20-0
Am 16-4 and 12-8
chaos with 200+ cultists lost 8-12
this is match i remember
lately im playing 2x28 letters with icon and instrument and 1x10 letters i can get some loss in overwatch and still have 2 attacks.

Question: do you know about surrounding the enemy and not letting them fall back? Because when you say "when opponent falls back", he can only fall back if every units I can charge has FLY or there is only 1 unit within 3D6+1+6 range. Every other time I will surround something. This is what people playing against me learn the hard way. A gunline can never win against this if they have no melee units (which I kill first if I can so they can't defend).

I've already said why I don't use them. I use every non-deamonette daemon troop + HQs+tsons psykers. That's it. My opponent's anti-tank is useless against me (other than making plaguebearer FNP harder) and if he only brings anti-horde he loses to knight lists and doesn't even win against me most of the time. Which is why I've only lost 1 tournament game in 8th ed and it was in a random pairing 500pts doubles maelstrom tournament where 22letters and 2 skullreaver activations failed to kill an injured flyrant -.- ). I'm ofc not saying I'm the best player on the planet - just big fish small pond.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Question: do you know about surrounding the enemy and not letting them fall back? Because when you say "when opponent falls back", he can only fall back if every units I can charge has FLY or there is only 1 unit within 3D6+1+6 range. Every other time I will surround something. This is what people playing against me learn the hard way. A gunline can never win against this if they have no melee units (which I kill first if I can so they can't defend).

I've already said why I don't use them. I use every non-deamonette daemon troop + HQs+tsons psykers. That's it. My opponent's anti-tank is useless against me (other than making plaguebearer FNP harder) and if he only brings anti-horde he loses to knight lists and doesn't even win against me most of the time. Which is why I've only lost 1 tournament game in 8th ed and it was in a random pairing 500pts doubles maelstrom tournament where 22letters and 2 skullreaver activations failed to kill an injured flyrant -.- ). I'm ofc not saying I'm the best player on the planet - just big fish small pond.

Oh cool, so you must be on the winners tables on all the recent tournaments, surprised you're not more famous on here. Definitely surprised you're not a whole lot more humble and helpful, rather than being brash and braggardly.

I mean, someone who has only ever lost 1 game in any major tournament in the last 12 months is pretty huge. Record breaking even. I'll get Guinness on the phone.

Citation heavily needed on that tournament record.

Did you miss the last sentence? 40k isn't big here in the competitive sense. We've only had 5 RTTs in 8th ed(1000,750x2,1500,1000,500x2 points). I have no illusions of grandeur. If a top player like Nick Nanavati says something like "Plague Drones are the best daemon unit" or a Major tournament is won with a list that has a lot of Plague Drones - I'll definitelly change my mind.

I can re-tell all my games if you want.

3-0 the weekend after daemon codex with pinks, letters and nurglings (1000 pts): hard game against nids, easy as fk game against anti-tank admech(I deepstrike proofed the entire board so his elysians coudn't land by turn 2), moderate game against ynnari where a banner proc helped me surround
3-0 with orks. Got randomly paired with my practice partner (nids). Crushed every game. (first 2 games were against cheating TAU who used the seismic something artifact globally every turn instead of within 12'' and tried to cheat in multiple other ways and a cheating IG who kept trying to use infantry only stratagems on vehicles and vehicle only stratagems on infantry... Third game was Lord of Skulls and noise marines where we ignored the lord of skulls and killed everything else)
2-0-1 (1 draw) with daemons. The draw was against a CSM+daemons list(he won the tourny as he got paired against someone who lost his game and I got paired against eldar who won). Barelly won against Eldar due him hiting the time limit(he quit tournaments after this loss because he felt time limits are unfair). Then crushed Ynnari.
<at this point I found out a LOT of fight/charge phase tactics>
3-0 with my Nurgle+Tsons. 4 people tournament, but they actually had good lists. Not even close. Game results were: 37-4(alpha legion, who deepstruck his obliterators too far away), 39-5(knights who I killed with smite equivalents) and a concede(necrons who lost his 2 games) before even playing.
2-1 with a joke list in a casual tournament(30 letters, skullreaver DP, 7 furies) where I got a very casual player(he had valkyrie carrying 10 vanilla IG infantry and forgot to use orders and didn't even know what move move move was) as a random partner and failed to kill a 10 wound flyrant with 22 letters(21 1s on hit, he also made 900% of his 4+ and 2 skullreaver DP activations(wound roll: 1 1 1 1 1 2 3...)

BTW, Plague Drones have been in ONE top documented 20+ people tournament list from May 18 to Aug 18:
https://i.imgur.com/WxwxcA2.png
They're not that great dude...