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 blackmage wrote:
fiends sucks they are unplayable, seldom they survive enough to use their deny fall back ability, if they reach CaC.

Beasts of Nurgle fall under the same camp as this, but at least they have DR to make them somewhat marginally more survivable.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
fiends sucks they are unplayable, seldom they survive enough to use their deny fall back ability, if they reach CaC.

Beasts of Nurgle fall under the same camp as this, but at least they have DR to make them somewhat marginally more survivable.

But they're slow, and worse than Plague Drones.

yes plague drones are superior in every way, but they still need lot of support to be really dangerous, virulent blessing+Dp to re roll 1's and scrivener for 3+ to hit, or they are average, with no ap and 4+ to hit, i played them for a while and now switch to bloodletters, they hit like trucks also with no support, pretty fragile compared to drones but i need something can really kill quickly anything i can face.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
fiends sucks they are unplayable, seldom they survive enough to use their deny fall back ability, if they reach CaC.

Beasts of Nurgle fall under the same camp as this, but at least they have DR to make them somewhat marginally more survivable.

But they're slow, and worse than Plague Drones.

Yeah, that's my point. Beasts suck this edition. (in both 40k and AOS)

I was doing a comparison between Fiends and Beasts, where at least DR makes them a fraction better than Fiends but still in the gak pile.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I got a Herald of Tzeentch today, and I was wondering, is the Irritating Chant worth using the three Blue Horrors with my Herald, or should I just add them to a general Blue Horror unit?

I think it’s situational and kinda gimmicky. There’s potential in Blue Scribes synergy, but I’m not convinced such flimsy units can pull much off outside of casual. I’m gonna put them on mine and have it join a group of TS heroes, see what kind of impact they make.

I have had some success with fiends, its all about the target your charging i have found. I run mine straight at a unit that has no cc ability like a predator or rhino thats causing problems. Normally they get shot right away because my opponents know what will happen if they get into cc (nothing is as annoying as watching your las pred try to melee a slaanesh fiend and having to send someone to go save it from being stuck in cc). But that makes them a distraction carnifex, buys other things time to move.

Do NOT get me wrong, they die a lot more often than i get to actually use them, and against anything with some dedicated cc punch (you have powerfist in that tac squad? Pass...) they will die quick. They need to be looked at and modifed by gw somehow. I hope the new release will do something for them but i doubt it. But they are not total garbage, they just have a very specific use now that goes against their fluff.

Let's assume almost everything in the Daemons codex goes down in points. How would that change your playstyle?

i doubt anything will go down, i wont bet plaguebearers will stay at 7pts each, i can bet they will cost 1-2 pts more,every competitive list at major tournaments played 90/120 or more, in ETC i face regularly lists with 120/150 Pb's

Id want Greater daemons, bloodcrushers, blue horrors and screamers to get reductions. The first two in particular are laughable

I know it's a bit late but does the CA change to warp surge mean you can't use it on any tzeentch daemons except blues and brimstones?

operkoi wrote:
I know it's a bit late but does the CA change to warp surge mean you can't use it on any tzeentch daemons except blues and brimstones?

Nope, pinks are the only ones totally barred. They have a natural 4++ while every other tzeentch daemon gers a 5++ but with a +1 mod attached. So everyone except pinks is fine.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Id want Greater daemons, bloodcrushers, blue horrors and screamers to get reductions. The first two in particular are laughable

Ain't that the damn truth. All of the Greater Daemons need 80-100 points taken off. They are nowhere near durable enough for their points, especially with the nerf to Warp Surge (meaning no more 3++ Bloodthirsters with Armor of Scorn). And honestly even with a decent points drop Bloodcrushers will likely still suck because they directly compete with Bloodletters, which do the same job much better. Bloodcrushers really just need new rules, some new tactical niche that they can fill (that Bloodletters or other things cannot).

Yeah I find that even at T7 3++ with -1 to hit, any big 14-18 wound monster will get effectively 1-turned by the opposing force at 2k points. Usually either dropped to the lowest bracket or killed outright on T1. Almost certainly dead on T2.

Plaguebearers I've found to be stupid good. Point for point possibly the most resilient unit in the game, and on top of that have the option to be buffed to extreme CC damage output and Eldar infantry speed.

 blackmage wrote:
yes plague drones are superior in every way, but they still need lot of support to be really dangerous, virulent blessing+Dp to re roll 1's and scrivener for 3+ to hit, or they are average, with no ap and 4+ to hit, i played them for a while and now switch to bloodletters, they hit like trucks also with no support, pretty fragile compared to drones but i need something can really kill quickly anything i can face.

How many plague drones in a 2k list have you been experimenting with? I've had great success with 30-60 bloodletters but am interested in swapping them out for plague drones sometimes for variety.

plague drones cant ever fill same letter role, they are resilient but they need ton of support to be effective, a Dp to re roll 1's scrivener for +1 to hit and virulent blessing, hit on 4+ and ap0 make them bit underwhelming, i played 2x8 time ago (often in Ds depend by opponent list) with couple of nurgle Dp's, now i play 3x20 letters and never swap anymore for drones, with fly nerf then they cant fly over screens like they sometimes might do before, str 5/6 ap -3 ac 2+ 2 attacks and stratagem which make them attacks twice makes all the difference in favour of letters, 3 waves of 20 and you can handle anything also with no support.

Makes sense. Man the fly nerf hurt so many units. Especially plague drones since they have such enormous base sizes.

Aside from the FLY nerf, Plague Drones also can’t do what Bletters do because when they have high damage output it’s both (1) dependent on getting multiple buffs off, and (2) based on your opponent failing saves against high damage low AP attacks. Sure, they can disengage from hordes, but bloodletters can eat their way through moderately large waves of 1W models, potentially scoring VPs on the way.

yes that is, btw they are still viable,sure they aren't a powerhouse but they cam find a place in mononugle armies and still be decent, they just need too much support.

Interesting thoughts about the Plague Bearers. In my games they usually don't survive turn 1-2, but I only have 30 in 1000pts. games or 60 in 2000points games. And if they reach combat they're also not that killy despite scrivener/herald and psychic buffs. Usually the HQs are the ones' that do the killing, especially Poxbringers are extremely good for their points, I usually max them out, sad that rule of 3 hit them, I'd use 5 of them if I could .
Playing Nurgle Daemons and DG I've had much more success with plague marines than with Plague bearers, despite Dakka saying it should be the other way around .

Those are definitely interesting results. The -2 to hit warp surge 4++/5+++ seem pretty unbeatable for the value at 1000pts games. I ran 30 in a somewhat casual 1500pt game against Magnus/Thousand Sons a couple of days ago and they were basically unkillable over 5 turns.

What kind of lists do you go up against typically?


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 lindsay40k wrote:
Aside from the FLY nerf, Plague Drones also can’t do what Bletters do because when they have high damage output it’s both (1) dependent on getting multiple buffs off, and (2) based on your opponent failing saves against high damage low AP attacks. Sure, they can disengage from hordes, but bloodletters can eat their way through moderately large waves of 1W models, potentially scoring VPs on the way.

<3 bloodletters. Best unit and best sculpt of 8E. Reminds me that I need to take some photos of my bloodletters to post in my blog thread.

Hard to pull off Miasma when the opponent has +1 to deny the witch.
Long Fangs can ignore to hit modifiers straight away.
Necrons have my will be done and Tesla.
Tau can snipe characters.
Harlequins walk through Plague bearers easily.

I'm not saying Plague bearers are bad for their points, they're clearly not. It's just that in my experience they're just cannon fodder to live long enough until the real damage dealers reach the enemy - the HQ choices. And I've won most of the games with Daemons, just not in a way I would prefer. It's usually turn 1-2 - most Plague Bearers get blown to pieces while Nurglings hold objectives and slow down enemies that try to take these objectives from them, Turn 3-5 Herolds and princes smite and kill the enemy in CC. Sometimes Drones or Beasts are in the mix as well, but they're also just tying the enemy up until some HQ comes around for the kill. It's a little different when Epidemius is on the field and gets his tally going, then Plague Bearers become strong (but at this point the enemy is usually pretty broken anyway)
Unlike Plague Marines Plague Bearers in a mono-nurgle army face the problem of being the only target to shoot at, while Plague Marines in DG are usually the last (due to Drones, Princes, PBC, Helbrutes...). And at the same time Plague Marines have decent firepower.

Morale is usually a problem for Plague bearers. Every other game you might be lucky to save some with a banner or the piper, but it's in no way reliable and I'm always hesitant to pay 2CP to save 7-12 plague bearers from running away (especially when I've already invested points in banners and/or piper). How do you guys do it?

i think you need improve ur way of play
i beaten necrons, tau and arlequins more than 1 time, maybe 30 are too few but you sure need to play better lists
Morale is a problem for demons but i never lost 1 single unit to morale tests, keep 2Cp when needed and play blilepiper with +1 morale trait. Last tournament i tabled Tau a space wolf and draw against a whole anti horde list (and i mean a list setup to beat lists like Pb's spam), so no, Pb's are great. I think ur problem is the list not the Pb's, start play 60-90 and see how things will change.
About damage, i killed many things with Pb's with banners virulent blessing for example, anwyay caompetitive demon lists play always heavy hitters like letters and Dp's, the Pb's are the anvil (controlling the table and tarpit enemy units) then letters/dp, the hammer, will come and they wreak havoc.
PS: harley have no chance against 90/120 Pb 2/3 Dp's and 60 letters they will be tabled anytime.

Yeah, I'm not a competitive player and I don't intend to buy more plague bearers, 60 are definitely enough, especially as I'm running out of model alternatives . And as I said I still won most of these matchups, it's just that it wasn't because of plague bearers but because of poxbringers or the Daemon prince. And I'm playing mono nurgle so letters are out of question. Usually I ally in some DG for some much needed ranged hitting power. The two together work pretty well, but again, plague bearers usually don't do much than soaking up firepower and dieing, which is at least something I guess.
We'll see what CA brings. If the Great Unclean One gets reduced in points, he'll also be an answer to my morale problem.

so you won your games thx to poxBRINGERS (ore you meant poxWALKERS)+Dp ? because if you won thx to poxbringers i doubt you play against any skilled player.

 blackmage wrote:
so you won your games thx to poxBRINGERS (ore you meant poxWALKERS)+Dp ?

Pretty sure they did indeed mean the Bringers of Pox. They mentioned the Rule of 3 limiting how many could be taken.

i dont ever know how you can win against someone with 2 neurons working thanks to just poxbringers.

Ironically, rumors are coming in now that Greater Daemons are getting 75-100 points off.

Might finally break out the ol Tzeentch again if this is true. Have Kairos and 2 Lords ready to go, and I'd happily buy a third.

Rumored points drops:

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2018/11/08/chapter-approved-2018-leak-compilation/

Am I crazy for thinking that Horrors have a 3++ from ephemeral form and ephemeral daemon stacking with each other? Is it just a typo or am I missing something?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Am I crazy for thinking that Horrors have a 3++ from ephemeral form and ephemeral daemon stacking with each other? Is it just a typo or am I missing something?

Do they have Ephemeral Form?

Ahhhh, good catch. They don't.