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Blades of Putrefaction doesn't work on Plaguebearers.

orkswubwub wrote:
I understand reaver vs knights is good - are people actually getting the DP into melee against knights on even a 50 50 basis though? It was much easier when it was possible to run the alpha legion prince wtih it due to warptime... Most competitive lists screen with a million IG infantry, maybe custodes bikers and one dominus sitting in the back. I'm high on the skullreaver but have a hard time getting into melee...

Am I reading right that an Alpha Legion DP was running around with a Skullreaver? Because that was like never an option...

 lindsay40k wrote:

Am I reading right that an Alpha Legion DP was running around with a Skullreaver? Because that was like never an option...

Not really relevant but it technically may have been for the hot minute daemons in CSM detachments could use the daemons codex stratagems (and thus the extra relic)? The DP would be a daemon character obviously.

 lindsay40k wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
I understand reaver vs knights is good - are people actually getting the DP into melee against knights on even a 50 50 basis though? It was much easier when it was possible to run the alpha legion prince wtih it due to warptime... Most competitive lists screen with a million IG infantry, maybe custodes bikers and one dominus sitting in the back. I'm high on the skullreaver but have a hard time getting into melee...

Am I reading right that an Alpha Legion DP was running around with a Skullreaver? Because that was like never an option...

It was legal on a technicality. The latest faq fixed it.

Edit

Sweet. You worried about the bloodletters getting overwatched on the way in? How do daemonettes make it into combat?

demonettes goes in Ds, with icon and die re roll usually they charge in the turn they drop in, i can take some casualties to Letters they hit anyway hard as trucks usually they remove what they charge anyway. Soon i will play again with 30 pink horrors instead demonettes. Remember that list is made for ETC format so maybe cant be good for ITC.


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Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just watched a battle rep only on youtube. Wow, I finally saw properly supported plague bearers in action and it was scary. This whole rerolls morale and on a 1, gets back d6 plague bearers is really op. And if they get stuck in combat with a unit that just only manages to kill off a few plague bearers every turn. they are almost impossible to remove.

Like, kill 3 models, oh, I rolled a 1 on two dice for morale (with possible rerolls), and now I put d6 plague bearers back... lol
And blades of putrification on a mass of 30 plague bearers are sick. Now I know why people go with 90 to 120 plague bearers. Properly supported, that is such a hard resilient army. The guy in the battle rep only brought 50+ plague bearers. If he had brought 90, he would have won that game easily.

maybe that guy should re read blade of putrefaction rules, he was cheating , anyway if you really want rely on PB's you need not less than 90+scrivener+poxbringer+sloppity and they perform really good.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I've found that Pink horrors are a fantastic way to deal with screens to compliment Khorne. A full 30 blob shooting at an IG gunline will do fantastic, at 3 shots a piece, hitting 50/50 wounding on 3+ with a herald nearby. Give or take 30 wounds against their chaff! And that's just first turn, to take down a 30 blob you'd need to put a ridiculous amount of dakka into them, due to that 4++.

Yeah 2x20 pinks and 1x30 bloodletters are the core of my list. And of course 30x plaguebearers. Daemons simply have amazing troops which works perfectly for all obsec-driven missions like ITC.

Today I actually played one of the new CA missions against an Ultramarines gunline. I won but it wasn't an easy fight due to the front line assault deployment allowing the gunline to sit directly on top of a building within rapid fire range of the single center objective, which could only be held by characters.

Removing marines in 2nd floor cover with daemon hordes is ROUGH, especially when all my smites are getting screened out by the vehicles. Luckily sheer volume of fire managed to go through enough 2+ saves to wipe them out. Then the DP flew in and death hex'ed Marneus Calgar...

 blackmage wrote:

demonettes goes in Ds, with icon and die re roll usually they charge in the turn they drop in, i can take some casualties to Letters they hit anyway hard as trucks usually they remove what they charge anyway. Soon i will play again with 30 pink horrors instead demonettes. Remember that list is made for ETC format so maybe cant be good for ITC.

Let us know how the pinks compare to the daemonettes after your games. Btw, do you happen to know what the major differences are between ETC and ITC? I've skimmed over the ETC rules and it looks like it uses lots of... tactical objective cards? Doesn't that tend to make the games really swingy and random?

in Italy we play mainly full ETC rules+scenarios for big events or just rules but normal CA scenarios for "minor" events, usually in normal tournaments will be one maelstrom+EW mission then 2 EW taken from CA. Mix ew+maeltrom let a door open in some matches.
Demonettes are interesting but they still compete with letters (and letters are more reliable for a 2nd turn charge and they can damage anything), horrors give me some extra reach, they clean screens and can threaten some units i cant touch with letters/demonettes (some flyers, large units occupy the upper floor's ruins etc...)

 slave.entity wrote:


Let us know how the pinks compare to the daemonettes after your games. Btw, do you happen to know what the major differences are between ETC and ITC? I've skimmed over the ETC rules and it looks like it uses lots of... tactical objective cards? Doesn't that tend to make the games really swingy and random?

Etc mixes eternal war and maelstrom missions to make book missions "work". Its very, very objective oriented, so troops are a bigger thing. As opposed to itc, where kill power is more prime.

Why i say this is because ETC you can score objectives whenever, but in itc you cannot go back and score kills or bonus points after the turn has passed. Same thing, in a kill points etc mission and KP is a KP while ITC you are trying to slowly score the points each turn.

As well, ITC missions can (and will) be won with armies that have zero obsec units. ETC places a premium on obsec, especially if they implement acceptable losses as a normal, means less killing and more holding.

It will be interesting with LVO around the corner, i dont think demons will be top 5, maybe top 10. Theres one DG player that may take top 3, he won BAO and has had a lot of top place finishes. I wont be surprised seeing a lot of 1k sons, people really are trying to make mortal wound spam work, but i dont know how effective that will be with more horde armies being seen now. Tyranids have been making a great showing, will be interesting.


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Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just watched a battle rep only on youtube. Wow, I finally saw properly supported plague bearers in action and it was scary. This whole rerolls morale and on a 1, gets back d6 plague bearers is really op. And if they get stuck in combat with a unit that just only manages to kill off a few plague bearers every turn. they are almost impossible to remove.

Like, kill 3 models, oh, I rolled a 1 on two dice for morale (with possible rerolls), and now I put d6 plague bearers back... lol
And blades of putrification on a mass of 30 plague bearers are sick. Now I know why people go with 90 to 120 plague bearers. Properly supported, that is such a hard resilient army. The guy in the battle rep only brought 50+ plague bearers. If he had brought 90, he would have won that game easily.

Thing is if your speaking competitively, players need to prepare for 90+ plagues.... the kill power of plagues is terrible, but they have great board presence and are hard to kill, so you have to be able to kill a bunch, or bait out the stuff that really matters (demon princes, etc.). Guys in my local have started taking the flamer castellan and the other flamer knight and they destroy a plaguebearer unit quickly... as does lootas or a warpathed orc boyz squad (if theyre goff your likely going to lose the whole unit).

Its a tough shell to crack, but thats why you see it often in competitive nurgle lists; its good to hide your crunchy bits behind. But nurglings are just as good played properly, some might argue even better at times.

nurglings are great but they lack they staying power of bareres, and they damage really nothing, bearers with some support can threaten other infantry or light veichles

Good stuff. ETC seems like a fun way to play. Interesting how much they favor different list styles and unit choices.

As always thanks for the info, blackmage and Zid.

Yesterday I threw together a new version of my artillery-supported daemon soup list that swaps out the leviathan for an AVG knight. I can't believe how much more expensive they are than a butcher leviathan now with the points drops.

[1999 pts] [13CP]

Superheavy Auxiliary
Renegade Knight, 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon

Tzeentch Battalion
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Glamour of Tzeentch, High Magister
Changecaster, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate
2 x 20 Pinks
10x Brimstones

Daemons Battalion
Khorne DP, Skullreaver
Poxbringer, Miasma
27x Bloodletters
30x Plaguebearers
3x Nurglings

Had to sacrifice the third battalion for the superheavy auxiliary detachment unfortunately, and without a good Thousand Sons unit to stack buffs on Ahriman started making less and less sense. Overall I think a double gatling knight replacing Ahriman/leviathan gives me a little more kill power, survivability, and more importantly a more self-sufficient large threat on the table that doesn't rely on quite as many moving parts to function optimally. Having only 13CP makes me a little uncomfortable since I'd burn 6 of them before the game even starts. But a Chaos knight, 40 pinks, 30 bloodletters, and 3 daemon princes seems like pretty good kill power to me.

 blackmage wrote:
horrors give me some extra reach, they clean screens and can threaten some units i cant touch with letters/demonettes (some flyers, large units occupy the upper floor's ruins etc...)

Oh yeah, I've definitely found that units on 2nd floor ruins are a huge pain to kill with a daemon horde list thanks to the dumb 'you can't charge me' rules surrounding model placement. Primaris marines in cover on the 2nd floor of an unchargeable ruin is total BS for melee-oriented armies. And pinks have to dump so much fire at them to get through all of the 2+ saves. Last time I played against an Ultramarine gunline camping in 2nd floor cover I believe his Primaris did as much damage blowing itself up with plasma as I did with pinks. My opponent forced me to destroy a bunch of his vehicle screens first before I could effectively deal with his 2nd floor Primaris via smite. And infernal gate. Landing that infernal gate on Marneus, ancient, lieutenant, 2 squads of hellblasters, and a squad of intercessors was supremely tight.

 slave.entity wrote:
Good stuff. ETC seems like a fun way to play. Interesting how much they favor different list styles and unit choices.

As always thanks for the info, blackmage and Zid.

Yesterday I threw together a new version of my artillery-supported daemon soup list that swaps out the leviathan for an AVG knight. I can't believe how much more expensive they are than a butcher leviathan now with the points drops.

[1999 pts] [13CP]

Superheavy Auxiliary
Renegade Knight, 2x Avenger Gatling Cannon

Tzeentch Battalion
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength
Thousand Sons DP, Death Hex, Glamour of Tzeentch, High Magister
Changecaster, Flickering Flames, Gaze of Fate
2 x 20 Pinks
10x Brimstones

Daemons Battalion
Khorne DP, Skullreaver
Poxbringer, Miasma
27x Bloodletters
30x Plaguebearers
3x Nurglings

Had to sacrifice the third battalion for the superheavy auxiliary detachment unfortunately, and without a good Thousand Sons unit to stack buffs on Ahriman started making less and less sense. Overall I think a double gatling knight replacing Ahriman/leviathan gives me a little more kill power, survivability, and more importantly a more self-sufficient large threat on the table that doesn't rely on quite as many moving parts to function optimally. Having only 13CP makes me a little uncomfortable since I'd burn 6 of them before the game even starts. But a Chaos knight, 40 pinks, 30 bloodletters, and 3 daemon princes seems like pretty good kill power to me.

 blackmage wrote:
horrors give me some extra reach, they clean screens and can threaten some units i cant touch with letters/demonettes (some flyers, large units occupy the upper floor's ruins etc...)

Oh yeah, I've definitely found that units on 2nd floor ruins are a huge pain to kill with a daemon horde list thanks to the dumb 'you can't charge me' rules surrounding model placement. Primaris marines in cover on the 2nd floor of an unchargeable ruin is total BS for melee-oriented armies. And pinks have to dump so much fire at them to get through all of the 2+ saves. Last time I played against an Ultramarine gunline camping in 2nd floor cover I believe his Primaris did as much damage blowing itself up with plasma as I did with pinks. My opponent forced me to destroy a bunch of his vehicle screens first before I could effectively deal with his 2nd floor Primaris via smite. And infernal gate. Landing that infernal gate on Marneus, ancient, lieutenant, 2 squads of hellblasters, and a squad of intercessors was supremely tight.

You lose the 6" extra spells in that list (all models must be 1k sons legion). A renegade knight doesnt make sense in your list, they work best supported by other heavy ranged options; to minimize how much damage they take (or force opponents into a lose-lose). Ahriman is great for the +1 to deny as well

Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.

You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?

a Ik in ur list will be focused by EVERY At weapon in opponent list, if you want support it maybe helverins are a good choice or maybe contemptors considering they cost less now, i should play a Tz demon batt and a supreme Ts command for me would work better.
Guess your list is 1750?

 slave.entity wrote:
Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.

You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?

Levithans (2 or more), plaguebrust crawlers, helverins, essentially stuff that causes your opponent to have to choose what to aim all his heavy stuff at. T8 with a 4++ seems hearty, but it really isnt as durable as it seems without other targets for your opponent; especially because its effectiveness diminishes a lot once tiered (i have a lot of battle reps with mine, i always run it with 3 plagueburst crawlers). Thats just me, a renegade knight isnt as plug and play as imperial ones.

And i know you will probably disagree because of your success with a single levithan; i will say from a competitive angle if i see multiple things that can touch me across the table and kill me is much more threatening than a single knight thats not a castellan. The gat knight fills the same role as the horrors in your other list, though it can beat up light vehicles

yes or also helverins+PBC then your opponent have hard time to decide where shot his heavy weapon

Hmm I like that a lot and have run something similar before with the 2x20 bloodletters. Only 6 CP to deep strike 4 big daemon bombs though so that's really nice. Btw, I play 2000 points games usually so I wonder what would be a good choice for the remaining 250 points.

Maybe the leviathan in my previous list works a little better than the renegade knight due to being 1) Smaller/easier to hide T1. 2) tougher with the -1 to hit (glamour) and 1+/4++ sv (in cover, weaver). Does that sound right? I usually don't ever have problems with losing a leviathan T1 since it's relatively easy to hide and can fit inside a ruin easily for the 1+ save. I suppose a renegade knight is a lot more vulnerable by comparison since it's too big to hide and only has a 3+/5++ compared to the 1+/4++.

 slave.entity wrote:
Hmm I like that a lot and have run something similar before with the 2x20 bloodletters. Only 6 CP to deep strike 4 big daemon bombs though so that's really nice. Btw, I play 2000 points games usually so I wonder what would be a good choice for the remaining 250 points.

Maybe the leviathan in my previous list works a little better than the renegade knight due to being 1) Smaller/easier to hide T1. 2) tougher with the -1 to hit (glamour) and 1+/4++ sv (in cover, weaver). Does that sound right? I usually don't ever have problems with losing a leviathan T1 since it's relatively easy to hide and can fit inside a ruin easily for the 1+ save. I suppose a renegade knight is a lot more vulnerable by comparison since it's too big to hide and only has a 3+/5++ compared to the 1+/4++.

Right. One opposing view, though, is your levithan fills an anti tank role; the gat knight does not. As well, the knight probably wont even attempt to hide most games anyway; and he can see a lot of stuff... unless your playing itc where first floor blocks los.

I use a knight often and love him, he just requires you building around him and knowing he might bite it turn one.

 Zid wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.

You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?

Levithans (2 or more), plaguebrust crawlers, helverins, essentially stuff that causes your opponent to have to choose what to aim all his heavy stuff at. T8 with a 4++ seems hearty, but it really isnt as durable as it seems without other targets for your opponent; especially because its effectiveness diminishes a lot once tiered (i have a lot of battle reps with mine, i always run it with 3 plagueburst crawlers). Thats just me, a renegade knight isnt as plug and play as imperial ones.

And i know you will probably disagree because of your success with a single levithan; i will say from a competitive angle if i see multiple things that can touch me across the table and kill me is much more threatening than a single knight thats not a castellan. The gat knight fills the same role as the horrors in your other list, though it can beat up light vehicles

Nah dude I believe you. Good to get the opinions of experienced competitive players. The comparison of renegade knights to the loyalist ones makes perfect sense. And yeah, it does seem the S6 guns on the renegade knight creates too much overlap with the horrors in my list. With the leviathan having at least some S8 (even though it's relatively light AP1 S8) provides me with more flexibility than 24 S6 shots.

 slave.entity wrote:

 Zid wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Oh yeah, that's true damn. The two Tsons DPs was fine in the Tsons battalion I had before but now that I don't have it I lose a lot of the benefits of using them, namely the +6" to cast and the unnerfed smite spam.

You don't think a renegade knight works as a big, solo dakka platform? What kinds of other heavy ranged options would you support it with?

Levithans (2 or more), plaguebrust crawlers, helverins, essentially stuff that causes your opponent to have to choose what to aim all his heavy stuff at. T8 with a 4++ seems hearty, but it really isnt as durable as it seems without other targets for your opponent; especially because its effectiveness diminishes a lot once tiered (i have a lot of battle reps with mine, i always run it with 3 plagueburst crawlers). Thats just me, a renegade knight isnt as plug and play as imperial ones.

And i know you will probably disagree because of your success with a single levithan; i will say from a competitive angle if i see multiple things that can touch me across the table and kill me is much more threatening than a single knight thats not a castellan. The gat knight fills the same role as the horrors in your other list, though it can beat up light vehicles

Nah dude I believe you. Good to get the opinions of experienced competitive players. The comparison of renegade knights to the loyalist ones makes perfect sense. And yeah, it does seem the S6 guns on the renegade knight creates too much overlap with the horrors in my list. With the leviathan having at least some S8 (even though it's relatively light AP1 S8) provides me with more flexibility than 24 S6 shots.

It does, the knight is usually used to shred elite infantry and infantry based heavy weapons (reapers); he does a great job at mulching infantry in general.

I was thinking of including a single renegade Knight as a way to deal with flyers or enemy armor.

I play mono Slaanesh and that’s whats given me the most trouble. I don’t have any shooting to deal with the flyers and only DPs can fly up to smack them. Which is obnoxious.. I wish Keepers could fly.

The new enrapturess has me thinking of using her instead though. I can hide them in my mass of infantry and effectly Tier down flyers with the melta shot so they’re not as effective.

depend what kind of list you play, a single IK in an infantry or almost infantry list mean the Ik die turn 1 against a decent shooting list

From what I've read, placing the daemons of different gods in the same army does work, though it works best with CSM support. Are there downsides to having multiple kinds of daemons in an army? I want to put together an army heavily reliant on Tzeentch and Khorne daemons, with possible Slaaneshi and Nurgle daemons. Is creating such an army worth it? I've heard that it drains command points extremely fast.

Bloodletters vs Tzaangors. Any thoughts? Tzaangors can't deepstrike multiple units but you can use a relic to transport one blob of them backfield.

I normally run both. Patrol detachment of tzaangors, dp of tzeentch and a bomb of bloodletters and a herald. Make dp the warlord and give it eatherstride. T1 advance tzaangors and dp up, then end of movement pop the relic to move tzaangors up to charge range. Then cast gaze of fate for free reroll and warptime on the dp, he should now be in charge range. Gaze of fate helps make sure tzaangors get in. Eatherstride gives free reroll if the dp needs it to charge. T2 bloodletters pop out and finish whatever is left.

Rest of tson forces / khorne demon forces are focused on killing chaff to make a hole for bloodletters t2 or help make sure dp is hitting what it wants to hurt.

weaver9 wrote:
Bloodletters vs Tzaangors. Any thoughts? Tzaangors can't deepstrike multiple units but you can use a relic to transport one blob of them backfield.

With Webway Infiltration, yes they can.

Kinda wondering when GW are going to realize that Psyker isn't equivalent in value to +1A...

they fill same role, main difference is AP -3 the chance for 2 damages and str 5 for letters, tzaangors are more synegic with Ts powers, i still prefer letters but they both have reasons to be played


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
I normally run both. Patrol detachment of tzaangors, dp of tzeentch and a bomb of bloodletters and a herald. Make dp the warlord and give it eatherstride. T1 advance tzaangors and dp up, then end of movement pop the relic to move tzaangors up to charge range. Then cast gaze of fate for free reroll and warptime on the dp, he should now be in charge range. Gaze of fate helps make sure tzaangors get in. Eatherstride gives free reroll if the dp needs it to charge. T2 bloodletters pop out and finish whatever is left.

Rest of tson forces / khorne demon forces are focused on killing chaff to make a hole for bloodletters t2 or help make sure dp is hitting what it wants to hurt.

why you need to move Tzaangors during mov phase? with dmc ainyway they get 9" away from enemy units so move them is pointless if you want use dmc on them 1st turn, then im pretty sure if you advance in mov phase then you cant use DMC and still charge with tzaangors, dmc let them fall back and charge but not advance in movement phase then charge.

I was talking to someone who plays Deathguard + Nurgle and told me you are able to run both armies in the same detachment by using the Nurgle keyword. His example was that you could make a Nurgle Battalion detachment and within that detachment you could also link a Deathguard Battalion I'm the Nurgle Battalion to let you run Pleaguebears and PBCs in the 1 detachment rather than having 2 separate ones.

I am just wondering if this is legal to run and if so what are the pros + cons to running DGuard + Nurgle in a shared detachment rather than separate detachments for both armies.

You lose the DG trait (RF at 18", no move penalties for shooting) and the Nurgle Daemons' Locus, and far more importantly, you don't unlock stratagems without a pure DG or Daemons detachment.