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the_Jakman wrote:
Hey my dudes, I'm considering adding a small Daemon battalion to my CSM list and was hoping for some advice and rules clarifications as I'm not up to date on the FAQs.
My main Alpha Legion force focuses on a large squad of Noise Boys infiltrating, Obliterators, and a battalion of R&H militia chumps. Any advice on how to better achieve a decent bloodletter bomb, or which HQ to take would be welcome. I'm thinking of adding the following, trying to make is as cheap as possible whilst still having a large bloodletter squad. The nurglings are there to primarily qualify as a battalion for CP, to lock down my intended location for my infiltrating Noise Marines, and to screen them from CC.

Daemon Battalion
Bloodmaster
Skulltaker
30x Bloodletters w/ Horn, Banner
2x3 Nurglings
483pts

My questions are,
Is the stratagem for summoning daemons for CP cost still a thing and can it be used to summon HQ? Ill have plenty of CP to spare.
Do the Loci from Skulltaker and Bloodmaster stack?
I've seen people talking about giving bloodletters a 3d6 charge, where does this come from? I can't seem to find it in the Codex or on Battlescribe.
Cheers for the help.

The way summoning works is instead of moving a character you roll 3 dice and you can summon any unit (even hqs and LOW as long as they can be summoned) that has the same god keyword as the character (or any god if the character is undivided/not affiliated with a single god) and has a PL equal or lower then the result. I.e Kharn the betrayer can only summon khorne daemons, Ahriman tzeentch daemons but an undivided character like a Black legion Lord can summon any daemon. If you roll doubles on the summon dice the summoner takes a MW and if you roll triples the caster takes D3 MW. The summoning stratagem just lets you use an extra dice for 4 total and give the summoned units rerolls of 1 if they stay within 3 inches of the caster in exchange for automatically applying the d3 wounds to the summoner regardless of the rolls. You still need to have points set aside for summoning in matched play though. There is a deepstrike strategem called Denizens of the Warp that is for all intensive purposes identical to tellyporta or webway gate for eldar and orks (1cp for a unit 1-8 PL, 2 for 9 or more PL). Though with the last chapter approved some aspects of summoning are in a confusing state right now.(particularly turn 1)

Daemon locuses are additional auras produced by a detachments hqs that only work if you have mono god detachments (i.e pure khorne or pure nurgle) but the basic HQ aura abilities do stack as long as they are applicable so skulltaker and a bloodmasters auras would stack and give their bonuses to a khorne daemon unit (even CSM daemon engines) within range.

The 3d6 charge comes from a stratagem banner you attach to the unit as an upgrade somewhat like ork 'ardboyz. The usual bloodletter bomb is putting the bloodletters in deepstrike with the strategem and giving them the relic banner.

After looking over some info about them, I'm thinking of switching out my Soul Grinder for a Skull Cannon. Is this a wise choice? If I did that, I would have points that I would use for a second Bloodmaster, another icon, two more Bloodletters. Another option would be to have a Defiler, a second icon, another Bloodmaster, and one Bloodletter. Which of these options looks the best?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm thinking of switching out my Soul Grinder for a Skull Cannon.

They fill very separate roles. A skull cannon is mostly ranged, with a little melee capacity. The Soul Grinder has a good deal of melee capacity with a bit less ranged damage.

Ranged Damage
The Grinder will be getting ~6.5 shots per turn, The phlem also does 3 damage flat, where the Cannon only does d3 damage.
The Cannon only had ~3.5 shots, per turn but will usually be standing still so it's hitting on a 3+.
If your Grinder is moving, it will have about 70% the ranged damage capacity as the cannon. If it stands still, it will have slightly higher damage output.

Melee Damage
The Grinder wins, hands down, in this capacity. The grinder can swing 10 times at STR 8, -2 AP, for d3 damage per hit. It can instead swing 5 times hitting for STR 16 at d6 damage.
The Cannon has a few decent swings in assault, and can charge to do a few extra mortal wounds. It does more damage than an imperial vehicle, but it's not on the same scale.

Durability
The Grinder has twice as many wounds. If you take the grinder as Nurgle (and you should) the grinder has the equivalent of 18.2 wounds. That's as much as 2.5 Cannons.
The Cannon never degrades, which is nice.

Cost
The Cannon costs half as many points as the Grinder. That's where it wins out. You can bring 2 Cannons for 1 Grinder, which means if you are looking for decent cheap ranged damage, the cannon is a good option.

My review on Grinders
I’ve been playing with them a good deal since they dropped to 180. The best with to run them IMHO is Nurgle. DR means that you are saving 55% of the wounds done to you — compared to the 50% you save as Tzeentch.

The DR effects all wounds (even mortal), which means that you have a chance to resist mortal wounds. Nurgle grinders also get to use DR when they are rolling their 3+ save, which comes up quite often. In one game I had my nurgle grinders tie up a squad of 30 boys for 3 game turns.

Grinders fill one of two roles. They either camp out on an objective, or move forward to engage and cause problems.

If they are camping, they do a good job for deterring, as few things want to get close to the objective with a grinder on it. The problem is that a troops choice that assults a grinder camping on an object will take the objective from the grinder. This has happened to me on more than one occasion, so you need to ensure you have other support units near by to stop the deep striking troops.

The other use for the grinders is to rush forward to cause mayhem. Their weapon skill never degrades. This means that until they hit the last profile, they can still do some decent damage in assault. I usually wind up using the warp claw, as you get 2 ‘to hit’ rolls for every attack. 10 attacks helps to mitigate the 4+ WS. As each of those swings are STR 8 (9 if for some reason you have a herald nearby) -2 ap, and D3 damage, they do quite a bit of work.

Statically, the iron claw is better against vehicles. It’s not by a lot, but that’s what you want to use against targets with 3+ wounds.

The shooting is OK from the grinders. I’ve done some damage with the phlegm bombardment. Being a heavy d6 gun, it’s pretty random in it’s effect. I’ve had it hit 4 times, and I’ve had it only shoot once. You should have seen my opponents face when he assaulted my grinder with a marine smash captain only to have him die to phlem overwatch.

The harvester cannon is a bit more reliable in shots, but it’s not the greatest weapon. I’ve had it pluck off a few wounds from time to time.

What really makes the grinders shine is their durability. 14 wounds with DR means they have effectively 18.2 wounds! To add insult to injury, you can heal them with Revolting Regeneration and Fleshy Abundance. This can be a great way to bring a grinder up from the lowest profile.

As mentioned, I’ve had them take enormous amounts of firepower before cracking. I had one absorb 75 loota shots and live with 1 wound left (I was slightly lucky there, but not abnormally so)

Overall, I think at 180 points, they are good units. Not great units. Not overpowers units (especially given the number of anti-knight weapons out in the meta today) but good units. For my nurgle army, they give some needed extra punch.

 p5freak wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Such a lame change.

Yea, its lame that 30 pinkies cant get a 3+ inv anymore, for 1 CP

except they still can! XD
They roll a D6+1 on their save, and with the stratagem they need a 4+.
Guess what
that
amount
to?

Fun fact : GW has no idea how to play their own game!

VoidSempai wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Such a lame change.

Yea, its lame that 30 pinkies cant get a 3+ inv anymore, for 1 CP

except they still can! XD
They roll a D6+1 on their save, and with the stratagem they need a 4+.
Guess what
that
amount
to?

Fun fact : GW has no idea how to play their own game!

Horrors dont have the +1 save rule other tzeentch daemons have. The wording explicitly states pinks have a 4++ (invalidating warp surge), Blues a 5++, and brims a 6++ so you can't warp surge pinks. The closest they get is their extremely situational locus. The real atrocity is how much longer in comparison it is taking GW to apply an identical nerf to a faction that is abusing high invulnerable saves far worse then daemons have since the days of 4++ brimstones (Knights and Rotate ion shield).

pink horrors cant get 3++ save just 4++ they dont have +1 save on dice, maybe now with cursed earth something can change

 blackmage wrote:
pink horrors cant get 3++ save just 4++ they dont have +1 save on dice, maybe now with cursed earth something can change

That aura only applies to Daemon Astartes of the same Legion

oh then i misread ty

I am really liking having Slaanesh daemons allied in with my Emperor's children. The soul grinder and keeper of secrets have been spectacular in my games with them. The slaanesh warlord traits, spells, and their few strategems are all really good.

What are everyone's thoughts on the keeper of secrets?

Heafstaag wrote:
I am really liking having Slaanesh daemons allied in with my Emperor's children. The soul grinder and keeper of secrets have been spectacular in my games with them. The slaanesh warlord traits, spells, and their few strategems are all really good.

What are everyone's thoughts on the keeper of secrets?

It’s not bad now it’s had a price cut. With the right opponent and right deployment, Celerity and Fiends can put it in a terrific position on turn one. IME it’s not especially likely to survive turn one, buuuut it’s cheap enough now that it’s not the end of the world.

Main problem is that the Slaanesh locus - advance and charge - is something that you can build a list around, and it being targetable means you can’t rely on it to get your Maulers and Daemonettes and DP and Possessed running full tilt. So, I generally bring a herald on Steed as well. Not sure how she’ll do when all these new Sniper marines start appearing...

Heafstaag wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on the keeper of secrets?

I've not played one -- mostly because I don't own one of those models. They are in dire need of a update in models. My buddy plays one on a regular basis. These are some of the thoughts he has given me.

Squishy
All slaanesh units suffer from one weakness -- bullets. T7, 12 wounds and a 5++ just does not last that long. A squad of 10 Intercessors will do (2/3 to hit * 1/3 to wound * 2/3 failed save * 20 shots) = ~ 3 wounds on the target. If they are deathwatch using poisoned ammo, that jumps to ~7 wounds.
Unlike other greater deamons, they only have 12 wounds. This will probably change when they get a model update, but for now their model is extremely tiny. This means you can hide it more easily. Against people who are not familiar with them, they might not be targeted if people don't know their threat.

Fast
At full profile, they are moving 12" plus advance and then they charge after advancing. That's a solid threat range of 22.5". This means that most units will have generally one round to shoot at a keeper before it gets stuck in. This makes them as fast as a DP with wings (though they cannot ignore terrain like FLYing creatures can)

Hard Hitting
At full profile, they are STR 7, 6 attacks, AP-3, 3 damage with another D3 attacks on top of that. This averages 8 attacks. This great against specific targets, like dreads -- but falls short against other targets like orks just because the 3 damage and -3 AP is wasted.
As an added bonus, enemy attackers are -1 to hit in assault.

Psykers
A KoS can cast 2 powers a turn and deny once a turn. Some of these powers are pretty cool -- like Hysterical Frenzy and Symphony of Pain. Sadly, Hysterical Frenzy is harder to get off than you might think. Since the psychic phase comes before the assault phase, your KoS will not be within 1" of an enemy unit to use. Your opponent is likely to fall back out of range during the movement phase, preventing you from using it during the psychic phase. You can get around this with units like Fiends, but it's it's not something you have to line up.
Even if you are just using smite and another psychic power to do mortal wounds, you can expect to deliver ~4 mortal wounds a psychic phase, which is pretty solid. There is a point of diminishing returns on this, as smite gets harder to cast and you can only use each slaanesh damage power once per phase....

Warlord
Personally I would not suggest taking the KoS as a warlord. With only 12 wounds, they are easy to kill if your opponent wants to. If you wanted to play pure Slaanesh, take a DP as they are under 10 wounds. If you did want to take one, there are a few decent options. Fatal Caress will give you ~1 more mortal wound of damage a round. Murderdance will give you ~10 attacks per on the round you assault. Celerity of Slaanesh bumps the intial movement to 15". They are all good -- but nothing really stands out as 'great'.

Relics
Soulstealer can be really nice as it let's the KoS heal wounds as it's delivering damage. You can easily heal 4 wounds per fight phase, making your KoS stick around longer. The Mark of Excess could be useful under the right circumstances. Overall though, they are somewhat lackluster compared to the Armor of Scorn or the Impossible Robe.

Greater Daemon
If you are going to run with a carpet of daemonettes, which at 6 PPM is not completely unreasonable -- then these guys increase the LD to a 10. This means when normally you would pick up models (and you will, as the slaanesh weakness of bullets is discovered often) you are picking up 3 less per unit per morale phase. It's not a big difference -- but will save a few models.

Cost
A KoS comes in at the bargain basement of 160 points.
How good is this? At this point I honestly don't know. I would need to try a few lists with 3 of these, 3 heralds and carpets of daemonettes.

thinking of digging out my Tzeentch daemons project again. What mono tzeentch army would you guys rock in the current game?

was thinking 2k brigade
prince, x3 fate skimmer , x4 10 brims, x2 30 pinks, 3x exalted flamers, 3x 4 screamers, 3x chariots

lots of shots, lots of high strength shooting, can hold up in combat, plenty of bodies.

 Latro_ wrote:
thinking of digging out my Tzeentch daemons project again. What mono tzeentch army would you guys rock in the current game?

was thinking 2k brigade
prince, x3 fate skimmer , x4 10 brims, x2 30 pinks, 3x exalted flamers, 3x 4 screamers, 3x chariots

lots of shots, lots of high strength shooting, can hold up in combat, plenty of bodies.

Looks good, would make a couple of tweeks. Swap 1 prince out for changeling, 6+++ would be handy in this sort of deathball.

Use extra points to bring 1x 30 pinks and 2x 20. Deepstrike smaller units for 1 CP save them from being annihilated by serios long range anti infantry turn 1 and still get assault 3 weapons.

 Latro_ wrote:
thinking of digging out my Tzeentch daemons project again. What mono tzeentch army would you guys rock in the current game?

was thinking 2k brigade
prince, x3 fate skimmer , x4 10 brims, x2 30 pinks, 3x exalted flamers, 3x 4 screamers, 3x chariots

lots of shots, lots of high strength shooting, can hold up in combat, plenty of bodies.

Why not do 2 battalions instead of 1 brigade?
This keeps you from getting stuck fielding things like flamer chariots -- which are really expensive for what they do.
It also opens up the door to add in some flamers if you want, which are really good for their role of clearing out hordes.
Have you considered adding a LoC? At the new point cost, with the impossible robe, they are decent.

my local tourney scene only allows one use detachments so just in the habit of building to that.

did think about the LoC they're not that shabby in combat either.

yea the chariots seem a bit of a meh compared to normal exalted flamers but i thought they might be decent for some extra CC punch.

Hey everyone.

Looking at doing mono Khorne Daemons for my next army (because Bloodletters are my fav daemon models )

But I have no idea how they do on Tabletop...

Any suggestions on a 750~1000point army list?

Any guidance would be great!
(I do have a Start collecting box on order, is it a worthwhile place to start?)

Fragmentize wrote:
Hey everyone.

Looking at doing mono Khorne Daemons for my next army (because Bloodletters are my fav daemon models )

But I have no idea how they do on Tabletop...

Any suggestions on a 750~1000point army list?

Any guidance would be great!
(I do have a Start collecting box on order, is it a worthwhile place to start?)

A Letter Bomb (25-30 Bloodletters with Icon, Instrument, and Banner of Blood strat, all in Deep Strike) is an extremely powerful option. Combine with the Khorne fight twice strat, and you can easily kill a knight in one turn, or clear out literal dozens of infantry models. It's 235pts+1CP to start, and well worth the cost.
You need 25-30 in order to survive some overwatch and still have the large unit bonus.

Mono Khorne Battalion

Fragmentize wrote:
Hey everyone.

Looking at doing mono Khorne Daemons for my next army (because Bloodletters are my fav daemon models )

But I have no idea how they do on Tabletop...

Any suggestions on a 750~1000point army list?

Any guidance would be great!
(I do have a Start collecting box on order, is it a worthwhile place to start?)

Solo Khorne can be tough because you can't really foot slog bloodletters. I'd take as many bloodletters and daemon princes as you can squeeze in.

Give the bloodletters the banner. I generally run in 20s as that saves CP when deepstriking them.

Both relic khorne weapons and the armour if scorn are fantastic. If you can take 2 daemon princes with skullreaver and pay a CP for one extra that would help.

2x 20 bloodletters with banner plus 10 (to fill battalion)
2x Daemon princes with wings is 760 points

If you save your last 3 CP you can let a daemon prince or unit of bloodletters fight twice... which is always nice

 Latro_ wrote:
did think about the LoC they're not that shabby in combat either.

Hmmmm...that definitely changes things for you. What are your models limited to? I've had good luck with 180pt soul grinders -- but I'm not going to suggest you go drop $250 on models. The Tzeentch Loci is pretty 'meh'. How committed to running Tzeentch are you? Would you be open to going unaligned?

You could put together something like this...

Does anyone think the new Primaris marines ability to nullify drops around them will put an extra emphasis on the speed of Slaanesh? Especially since they’ll inevitably get more stuff/updated this year?

ah furies, thats a sweet way to save pts on a brigade. Surley that list still gives you the loci no? you can just give the furies and soul grinders the tzeentch KW

i take it karios is out of flavour owing to no way to get a 3++

do you go sword or klaw on the soul grinders? not sure which of the three you'd use vs a knight? they all have benifits. Guess iron claw is maths better and worth taking the warp claw if facing hordes

maybe this then?

 Latro_ wrote:
ah furies, thats a sweet way to save pts on a brigade. Surley that list still gives you the loci no? you can just give the furies and soul grinders the tzeentch KW

Yes, you do. You can give those marks to grinders and furies.

 Latro_ wrote:
i take it karios is out of flavour owing to no way to get a 3++

Yes. The Impossible Robe is why the LoC is the better choice. Edit : You can use Warp Surge to get Fatey down to a 3++ every round. That will chew up 12 CP over the course of a game if you have to pop it every turn (which you wont). Fatey hits a bit harder in assault at high profiles. His psychic powers are better. If you have the CP to burn (which you do) fatey is not a bad choice.
It also depends on your point of diminishing returns with psykers. Each Tzeentch power can be cast 1ce per turn. You have 6 powers plus a diminishing smite. Fatey casts 3 times, your hearlds cast 2 times for 5 casts per turn. In that list you should be fine. If you had 8 casts per turn, then you are hitting saturation, as you won't be able to get all your powers off. In those cases you need to split to a different school (nurgle, etc) to allow you to get more casts.

 Latro_ wrote:
do you go sword or klaw on the soul grinders?

I got with the klaw, as it gives you 10 attacks vs hordes. Mathwise, it's better to use it vs anything T7 or less.

 Latro_ wrote:
not sure which of the three you'd use vs a knight? they all have benifits. Guess iron claw is maths better and worth taking the warp claw if facing hordes

Well, basically anything T7 or less.

Fate Skimmer : I was about to say something along the lines of 'you are likely better off just grabbing a fluxmaster'. Given that snipers are going to rapidly become more abundant (with assassins, GSC, and Primaris scouts) that 8 wound herald may be the way to roll. It also gives you an 11 point discount over buying 2 screamers. Why are you not grabbing the horrors on them for 5 points?

Otherwise it seems like a pretty decent list. Not a 'great' list, but that's because you are limited by what you can bring by only taking one brigade. What kind of missions do you plan on playing with it? Malestrom? ITC? ETC?

This is my current list that I'm running.
I'm using my plaguebearers in a similar way you are using your horrors -- board control. My grinders and DPs are my punching. Nurglings are deployed to block things like teleporting orks. The flamers are held in reserver for 1 CP each then dropped to take down enemy weak points (6d6 hits is no joke). The SOT also are held in reserve to drop down into a good firing postion to take advantage of bolter discipline. 40 hellfire bolt rounds and 4 missiles is no joke. This is an ITC list, designed to limit kills against me, grab a kill every turn, and to hold objectives.

Can't find a post talking about it but how usable are the Khorne units found in Wrath and Rapture? I'm thinking about picking it up and using it with my World Eaters.

Thought they faqd it so warp surge could only get you to a 4++? Brigade was just for the cp I'm open to any mix of detachments so long as no dupes and max of 3, that's how it generally is round here.

Like a theme with armies hense the mono tzeetch, I own a ton of khorne and nurgle daemons 60 bl 60pb 25 hounds etc etc

 DrGiggles wrote:
Can't find a post talking about it but how usable are the Khorne units found in Wrath and Rapture? I'm thinking about picking it up and using it with my World Eaters.

Karanak: interesting provider of DTW coverage & aura buff, uniquely combining cheapness, smallish base that can fit between the trees, and speed

Flesh Hounds: they’re okay but not as good as a letterbomb

Bloodcrushers: there’s pages and pages of attempts to find a single unit against which they are more efficient than letterbombs, as attackers or defenders. There’s nothing, even with the +1W

How did slaanesh armies turn out after the point buffs + the new units in wrath and rapture, i'm getting my army back soon from the painter and haven't had a chance to play in awhile.

Fiends are still pricey gimmick tier. The new character is cool, her 24” aura is bad news for psykers.

Is Khorne in 40k paying the price for being OP in AoS?

I don't play AoS, but from what I gather they seem pretty well-represented competitively over there.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 DrGiggles wrote:
Can't find a post talking about it but how usable are the Khorne units found in Wrath and Rapture? I'm thinking about picking it up and using it with my World Eaters.

Karanak: interesting provider of DTW coverage & aura buff, uniquely combining cheapness, smallish base that can fit between the trees, and speed

Flesh Hounds: they’re okay but not as good as a letterbomb

Bloodcrushers: there’s pages and pages of attempts to find a single unit against which they are more efficient than letterbombs, as attackers or defenders. There’s nothing, even with the +1W

Thanks, main reason why I was asking is my usual opponent runs a psychic heavy DG force. I figured DTW from Karanak and the Flesh Hounds would be useful with shutting that down.

On the Bloodcrushers- I'm assuming they aren't as useful as a letterbomb just because of the difference in # of attacks?

 Latro_ wrote:
Thought they faqd it so warp surge could only get you to a 4++?

Read the wording of Tzeentch power, it gives a +1 to dice roll for their save. It does not work on horrors (who don't have the form but have a 4++) or anyone wearing the impossible robe or armor of scorn.

 Latro_ wrote:
Brigade was just for the cp I'm open to any mix of detachments so long as no dupes and max of 3, that's how it generally is round here.

IMHO daemons just don't have the good fast attack or heavy support to really make a Brigade work. There are lots of good reasons to split into multiple chaos gods. Going with just one severely limits your options. IMHO, it's better to have 2 battalions than a Bridgade. You can fill out your troops with nurglings and brimstone horrors and be just fine.

 Latro_ wrote:
Like a theme with armies hense the mono tzeetch

Themed armies are great. Themed armies are, by their very nature, not at competitive. Dakka is pretty far from a bastion of competitive 40k now a days. Much of the advice given here is just bad.

What's Competitive for Chaos
Right now the 1k sons book is the best chaos faction.

Take the 1k sons DPs. They are flat out better than the CD DPs. They can cast an extra power a turn. They get 3 schools to pick from -- giving a lot more options. Scarab Occult Terminators are roughly the same price as imperial versions, when you include their 15 points CMLs. Ahriman is a mini LoC for half the price.

They are just better in every way. Don't take my word for it. Look at the LVO lists that scored 5-1 or better. There were a lot of daemon lists in there, but they took 1k sons in addition to daemons.

Can You Make Pure Daemons Work?
I've been struggling with this for the past 2 months, since I got back into 40k. In a non-hyper competitive game, absolutely.
There are a few good gems in the daemon book that I've found.

* 6 flamers porting in. Since they have a range of 12", you can deep strike them away from a screen and give it a good roasting. With flickering fire/herald they can do a staggering amount of damage to screens. ~2 squads of these is about your sweet spot.
* Soul Grinders : They are really good for their cost at 180. Decent shooting. Good assault. I'm happy with them so far.
* Exalted Flamers : These units are solid for their cost.
* LoC : This guy with an impossible robe is still great.
* Rotigus is good for his cost.
* Plaguebearers are still very hard to shift troops.
* Nurglings are still great for denying deep striking units
* Horrors can do a good amount of shooting damage. Porting 20 in lets you get an alpha strike of 60 shots for 1 CP.

There may be more, I just have not found it yet through my games. If you have found more, please let me know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DrGiggles wrote:
On the Bloodcrushers- I'm assuming they aren't as useful as a letterbomb just because of the difference in # of attacks?

Bloodcrushers are 47 points a pop compared to the 7 for bloodletters.
That means for every crusher, you can afford 6.7 bloodletters.
The bloodcrusher has 6 attacks. The bloodletters would have 6.7 attacks, and will be hitting on a 2+. The crusher hits with a higher STR.
The bloodcrusher has 4 wounds. The bloodletters have 6.7. The bloodletters also have 6.7 different wounds, which means one LC kill is a lot less painful on a crusher over a letter.

Most of those are close to a wash. The big advantage 'letters bring is they are a troop choice. I've lost games because my objective was swarmed by a troop choice making my heavy support no longer hold it.