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Index Heralds can use all the powers, Relics and Traits from the Codex, if they meet the requirements for same.
No, they cant. The designers commentary only gives you permission to use the index datasheet. And the index datasheet tells you which powers, relics and traits from the index they can use, if any.
I just finished the nurgle vid. Great stuff. There are a few notes I wanted to add
* 1k sons DPs are better than CD or Daemons. They get to pick from 3 schools, and can cast 2ce per phase. They are just flat out better for no extra cost.
* The way I look at nurglings is that you are paying 4 points per wound. Sure, it's low Toughness and STR, but point for point they are great troops. I've had them block insane charges before and just laugh.
* I'm not really feeling plague drones at 40ppm. I'll try bringing a few and seeing how they work.
* Soul grinders at 180 points are fantastic. I've never had a game where the grinder has been unable to get into assault. They also have decent shooting. They are a rockstar of a unit. If you want to leave them just as pure shooting and anti-assault units, you can plot them by a gnarlmaul and they will enjoy a 1+ save.
* The instrument gives +1 move, which is useful
* You can deep strike scabby. Hes just to expensive
I just finished the nurgle vid. Great stuff. There are a few notes I wanted to add
* 1k sons DPs are better than CD or Daemons. They get to pick from 3 schools, and can cast 2ce per phase. They are just flat out better for no extra cost.
* The way I look at nurglings is that you are paying 4 points per wound. Sure, it's low Toughness and STR, but point for point they are great troops. I've had them block insane charges before and just laugh.
* I'm not really feeling plague drones at 40ppm. I'll try bringing a few and seeing how they work.
* Soul grinders at 180 points are fantastic. I've never had a game where the grinder has been unable to get into assault. They also have decent shooting. They are a rockstar of a unit. If you want to leave them just as pure shooting and anti-assault units, you can plot them by a gnarlmaul and they will enjoy a 1+ save.
* The instrument gives +1 move, which is useful
* You can deep strike scabby. Hes just to expensive
I agree, 1k sons DPs are amazing, nurgle ones have a place too (and death guard ones), i also agree with nurglings theyre the best troop in the game (hence A+ grade) imo. The instrument is +1 advance and charge, its useful, but the 10 points can be better spent of plagues are not for damage in your list, i always cut them when plagues are walling for other stuff. Gnarlmaw doesnt work on the soulgrinder its a vehicle as far as cover, but im glad to hear he works for someone; i always compare him to my PBCs and auto pick PBCs.
Zid wrote: . Gnarlmaw doesnt work on the soulgrinder its a vehicle as far as cover, but im glad to hear he works for someone; i always compare him to my PBCs and auto pick PBCs.
Compare the soulgrinder to a PBC.
The grinder is T7 with 14 wounds, 3+ and DR.
The grinder has a (better) battle cannon (STR 6, D6 shots, -2 AP, 3 dmg). The 3 flat dmg on this is really good.
The grinder has an autocannon. (STR 7, 3 shots -1 AP, 2 dmg)
The grinder has 10 STR 8, AP-2 D3 dmg attacks in assault. If you have a loci nearby, any wounds of a 6 are D3+1 dmg.
You could also take the 5 swings at STR 16, D6dmg. I do this vs knights or other T8 targets so I'm wounding on a 2+.
The grinder never degrades weapon skill. It's a nice perk that it's always hitting on a 4+. Even when at the lowest profile it's still getting 4 swings.
I've had people throw 5 man units into my grinder to bog it down, only to have them ... well ... ground into bits.
One person said it best. A grinder is like a PBC that does not just stop and die if a cultist touches it.
I've been using 2-3 in each list and really liking what it has been bringing to the table. In more than one tourney they were my MVP
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/23 02:09:45
Zid wrote: . Gnarlmaw doesnt work on the soulgrinder its a vehicle as far as cover, but im glad to hear he works for someone; i always compare him to my PBCs and auto pick PBCs.
Compare the soulgrinder to a PBC.
The grinder is T7 with 14 wounds, 3+ and DR.
The grinder has a (better) battle cannon (STR 6, D6 shots, -2 AP, 3 dmg). The 3 flat dmg on this is really good.
The grinder has an autocannon. (STR 7, 3 shots -1 AP, 2 dmg)
The grinder has 10 STR 8, AP-2 D3 dmg attacks in assault. If you have a loci nearby, any wounds of a 6 are D3+1 dmg.
You could also take the 5 swings at STR 16, D6dmg. I do this vs knights or other T8 targets so I'm wounding on a 2+.
The grinder never degrades weapon skill. It's a nice perk that it's always hitting on a 4+. Even when at the lowest profile it's still getting 4 swings.
I've had people throw 5 man units into my grinder to bog it down, only to have them ... well ... ground into bits.
One person said it best. A grinder is like a PBC that does not just stop and die if a cultist touches it.
I've been using 2-3 in each list and really liking what it has been bringing to the table. In more than one tourney they were my MVP
What does a grinder do that a defiler doesn't do better or same for cheaper? You only get 5 attacks... where are getting 10? Yes the plgehm is d3, but when will this come into play with varying d6 shots and BS 5 if you move? PBCs mortars miss, but you k ow they miss and they are extra shots on top of the main reason you use them (flamers and bullying), a grinder wants to get into CC so cant advance and shoot.
Yes the PBC gets shut down if you let it get tied up, but it lasta far fat longer than a grinder in most games. T8 vs T7 is pretty huge.
The thing with the grinder is its like a defiler, but with arguably worse weapons, less attacks, and 40 points more because it gets a demon ability. Nurgle and Slaanesh are usable, but not competitive when you put them against other stuff we have accesss too. If a defiler is underwhelming (which it is) why would i want a grinder? Because it looks cool and gets DR? Any well formed list can easily kill 2 in a turn, despite DR its just got a 5++ and 14 wounds. They just need to tier it once and its greatly neutered.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/23 07:28:49
Zid wrote: What does a grinder do that a defiler doesn't do better or same for cheaper?
Defilers are also fantastic. Grinders have DR, where defilers do not. That means your grinders have effectively 1/3 more wounds than your defiler. I am working on adding 3 defilers into my army to try out 3 grinders and 3 defilers -- ideally with the new HQ that gives them +1 BS.
Zid wrote: You only get 5 attacks... where are getting 10?
Look at the warpclaw profile. "Make 2 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon instead of one". Since were also talking defilers, they get 7 swings if they also have a scourge.
Zid wrote: Yes the plgehm is d3, but when will this come into play with varying d6 shots and BS 5 if you move? PBCs mortars miss, but you k ow they miss and they are extra shots on top of the main reason you use them (flamers and bullying),
TEven when they are all moving up, if you are bringing 3, you will be hitting with d6 phlem and 3 autocannon shots on average -- a bit more if you have a prince nearby. I'm not saying it's great long range fire, but it's done some work for me to take out critical threats to my army -- like fishing out mortars before they wiped out all my nurglings.
Zid wrote: a grinder wants to get into CC so cant advance and shoot.
This may be surprising, but sometimes I am not always moving my grinders forward. Last weekend I was in a game vs GSC, and I knew he was coming to me. I used my plague bearers to gain board control, I was holding 2 objective and I just sat and waited for him to appear and burn my screens. When he did, the grinders got involved. While often they are moving up to be a threat, that's not always the case.
Zid wrote: Yes the PBC gets shut down if you let it get tied up, but it lasta far fat longer than a grinder in most games. T8 vs T7 is pretty huge.
I agree. T8 is a nice perk. Even with having 2 wounds less than a grinder, the PBC is a tough nut to crack.
Zid wrote: The thing with the grinder is its like a defiler, but with arguably worse weapons, less attacks, and 40 points more because it gets a demon ability. Nurgle and Slaanesh are usable, but not competitive when you put them against other stuff we have accesss too. If a defiler is underwhelming (which it is) why would i want a grinder? Because it looks cool and gets DR? Any well formed list can easily kill 2 in a turn, despite DR its just got a 5++ and 14 wounds. They just need to tier it once and its greatly neutered.
I disagree. While some lists can destroy 1 grinder a turn, I've not played a game where I've lost 2 a turn -- even the lists where I've had 25 lootas shooting at them. In every game I've played with them, I've had my opponents comment on just how tough of a nut to crack they are. Since you want to look at what a defiler vs grinder gives you...
* 3 dmg vs D3 with battle cannon. That's 50% more damage. Rarely has the 36" been an issue
* D3 dmg vs 1 dmg with the autocannon. That's double the damage
* More attacks vs masses with minions.
I also disagree that the defiler is underwhelming. For 144 points they are a nice package. As mentioned, I plan on trying out 3 of them to see how they mix. I think with the new updates to daemon engines coming up, were going to see a lot more of them in future lists.
Zid wrote: What does a grinder do that a defiler doesn't do better or same for cheaper?
Defilers are also fantastic. Grinders have DR, where defilers do not. That means your grinders have effectively 1/3 more wounds than your defiler. I am working on adding 3 defilers into my army to try out 3 grinders and 3 defilers -- ideally with the new HQ that gives them +1 BS.
Zid wrote: You only get 5 attacks... where are getting 10?
Look at the warpclaw profile. "Make 2 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon instead of one". Since were also talking defilers, they get 7 swings if they also have a scourge.
Zid wrote: Yes the plgehm is d3, but when will this come into play with varying d6 shots and BS 5 if you move? PBCs mortars miss, but you k ow they miss and they are extra shots on top of the main reason you use them (flamers and bullying),
TEven when they are all moving up, if you are bringing 3, you will be hitting with d6 phlem and 3 autocannon shots on average -- a bit more if you have a prince nearby. I'm not saying it's great long range fire, but it's done some work for me to take out critical threats to my army -- like fishing out mortars before they wiped out all my nurglings.
Zid wrote: a grinder wants to get into CC so cant advance and shoot.
This may be surprising, but sometimes I am not always moving my grinders forward. Last weekend I was in a game vs GSC, and I knew he was coming to me. I used my plague bearers to gain board control, I was holding 2 objective and I just sat and waited for him to appear and burn my screens. When he did, the grinders got involved. While often they are moving up to be a threat, that's not always the case.
Zid wrote: Yes the PBC gets shut down if you let it get tied up, but it lasta far fat longer than a grinder in most games. T8 vs T7 is pretty huge.
I agree. T8 is a nice perk. Even with having 2 wounds less than a grinder, the PBC is a tough nut to crack.
Zid wrote: The thing with the grinder is its like a defiler, but with arguably worse weapons, less attacks, and 40 points more because it gets a demon ability. Nurgle and Slaanesh are usable, but not competitive when you put them against other stuff we have accesss too. If a defiler is underwhelming (which it is) why would i want a grinder? Because it looks cool and gets DR? Any well formed list can easily kill 2 in a turn, despite DR its just got a 5++ and 14 wounds. They just need to tier it once and its greatly neutered.
I disagree. While some lists can destroy 1 grinder a turn, I've not played a game where I've lost 2 a turn -- even the lists where I've had 25 lootas shooting at them. In every game I've played with them, I've had my opponents comment on just how tough of a nut to crack they are. Since you want to look at what a defiler vs grinder gives you...
* 3 dmg vs D3 with battle cannon. That's 50% more damage. Rarely has the 36" been an issue
* D3 dmg vs 1 dmg with the autocannon. That's double the damage
* More attacks vs masses with minions.
I also disagree that the defiler is underwhelming. For 144 points they are a nice package. As mentioned, I plan on trying out 3 of them to see how they mix. I think with the new updates to daemon engines coming up, were going to see a lot more of them in future lists.
Im still not sold, and i run defilers pretty often and find them just average; this is all personal opinion though. I have faced soulgrinders several times and find they can be ignored, Nurgle ones are more annoying to kill, but the goal is to tier them once or twice and slow them down then kill other stuff.
Yes, the new stuff IMPROVED defilers, but its a lot of support to make an average model good. Its 150+ for the lord of discord (wounds 12 btw so dont expect it to live long), 98 for a MOP, and you will want first to get off the 4++.
All these supports add up quickly, i prefer stuff that can operate independent from buffs and do alright if i need it.
DR is a huge boon over the defiler, but otherwise the defiler imo is better. Plus of course its gonna be hard to crack if you were playing the gnarlmaw benefitted this guy otherwise hes a large space marine.
If they work for you, great! Id rather spend 180 points and grab another demon prince (1k sons, khorne, or nurgle).
Edit: your right, didnt see the warp claw. That does make him pretty decent in CC.
Double edit: lord discordant costs around the same as a defiler, but with ws 2/ bs 2, so i could see running 3x lords over defilers
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/03/23 13:05:32
Zid wrote: If they work for you, great! Id rather spend 180 points and grab another demon prince (1k sons, khorne, or nurgle).
As a heads up, I've been finding my DPs are getting sniped more by assassins, GSC and SM scout snipers. Snipers are becoming more and more common. The GSC one with the relic sniper is bonkers, as it can also cause perils. I'm starting to shy away from running multiple DPs because of this. They are not as 'protected' as they were.
We can also expect the Catellen to get nurfed soon -- probably with the next FAQ. With the majority of the top tables at LVO having one in their list, it's gotten the attention of GW.
This will dramatically change the game, which is the biggest problem running things like greater daemons provides.
These combine to make normal greater daemons more viable.
I've been running a GUO with good results. You mentioned the -1 to hit within 7" was garbage, but I've had some good luck with it. What I've done is give the GUO the power that makes him -1 to hit, and when he's stuck in he's then -2 to hit. This makes him a lot more durable. About a third the time I deep strike him. The other times I've just rushed him forward with the grinders.
Edit : Thanks for the discussion.
Double Edit : Snipers are also going to change the daemon meta. You can't rely upon Sloppity or Spoilpox to be around. You can't run 90 plaguebearers and use those 2 to boost your plaguebearers with no fear any more. That's why i'm looking into other ways to support the daemon carpet. Grinders / Defilers are really good support to a plaugebearer blob. 30 plague bearers with one of those inside are great for board control.
Like you, I play ITC. My lists are designed to 1) Hold Objectives 2) Kill 1 unit a turn 3) Complete secondaries when possible. Don't nurglings make great engineers?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/03/23 16:21:40
Have a question on Nurglings. These are like scouts right? So, what happens if they got multiple units Vindicare and scouts, and we have multiple units of Nurglings, then what happens ? Roll off? place one by one taking turns ?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Have a question on Nurglings. These are like scouts right? So, what happens if they got multiple units Vindicare and scouts, and we have multiple units of Nurglings, then what happens ? Roll off? place one by one taking turns ?
It depends on your deployment type. If the missions says 'player A deploys then player B deploys', then you put all your nurglings out during your deployment.
If you are taking turns deploying units, well...you still put them out as normal deployment. The difference is that you can block their scouts with your nurglings. (and they can block you)
So if they are using those new infiltrators with omni scramblers, and they happened to go first, does this mean they can screen out where we can place our nurglings with those omni scramblers ?
When we place our nurglings, does it count as setting up in the battlefield as reinforcements ?
Zid wrote: If they work for you, great! Id rather spend 180 points and grab another demon prince (1k sons, khorne, or nurgle).
As a heads up, I've been finding my DPs are getting sniped more by assassins, GSC and SM scout snipers. Snipers are becoming more and more common. The GSC one with the relic sniper is bonkers, as it can also cause perils. I'm starting to shy away from running multiple DPs because of this. They are not as 'protected' as they were.
We can also expect the Catellen to get nurfed soon -- probably with the next FAQ. With the majority of the top tables at LVO having one in their list, it's gotten the attention of GW.
This will dramatically change the game, which is the biggest problem running things like greater daemons provides.
These combine to make normal greater daemons more viable.
I've been running a GUO with good results. You mentioned the -1 to hit within 7" was garbage, but I've had some good luck with it. What I've done is give the GUO the power that makes him -1 to hit, and when he's stuck in he's then -2 to hit. This makes him a lot more durable. About a third the time I deep strike him. The other times I've just rushed him forward with the grinders.
Edit : Thanks for the discussion.
Double Edit : Snipers are also going to change the daemon meta. You can't rely upon Sloppity or Spoilpox to be around. You can't run 90 plaguebearers and use those 2 to boost your plaguebearers with no fear any more. That's why i'm looking into other ways to support the daemon carpet. Grinders / Defilers are really good support to a plaugebearer blob. 30 plague bearers with one of those inside are great for board control.
Like you, I play ITC. My lists are designed to 1) Hold Objectives 2) Kill 1 unit a turn 3) Complete secondaries when possible. Don't nurglings make great engineers?
After Nick Rose abadoned GSC, and a lot of the big wigs are turning away, i dont think they will be so common. But yes, the vindicare makes many demon hqs useless unless theres stuff to hide behind. This is particularly why i prefer nurgle DPs because they can get the auto d3 mortals strat done to them as easily as tzeentch, lol.
I dont disagree, i am a big fan of epidemus and i keep trying to make nurgle demon engines with him work. Pbcs do this very well, but you are right.
The main reason i say that is greater demons are very, very squishy. If you deep strike, you rely on a 9" charge to get use of the strat. GUO is not very hard to kill, especially in netas used to Mortarian w/ miasma, its basically the same thing. But if you are finding success with it, thats great! I prefer Death Guard as my warlords because the plate relic is amazing, or the Skullreaver prince.
Zid wrote: The main reason i say that is greater demons are very, very squishy. If you deep strike, you rely on a 9" charge to get use of the strat. GUO is not very hard to kill, especially in netas used to Mortarian w/ miasma, its basically the same thing. But if you are finding success with it, thats great! I prefer Death Guard as my warlords because the plate relic is amazing, or the Skullreaver prince.
The relic plate is bonkers good.
One of the things I'm going to try is mixing in some 1k sons with my tzeentch daemons. I'm bringing my nurgle brigade for 5cp, then some flamers to deep strike and a squad of Sarab Occult Terminators. Then for my last unit I was going to bring a supreme command of 1k sons daemon princes. I'm going to play around with it and let you know how it works.
Don't get me wrong about the GUO. He still dies. In the past 6 games I've played in, he has died 5 times. Has he 'earned his points back'? It depends on the game. He wrecked a knight, and a necron tessearact. I've also had him walk over enemy HQs. Bumping nurgle daemons LD to 10 helps when my plaguebearers are getting shot to bits. His role is not just 'earning his points back' however. There is a reason I try not to use that term. It's because the game is not won by the number of points a model kills. It's scored on objectives, killing units, and secondaries. I'll gladly trade 1500 points for 300 points of models if it makes me get those objectives.
I don't mind my opponent killing the GUO, because I'm feeding it to him. If it gives me board control for X turns in Y space, then it's 'earned its points back' by giving me more battlepoints.
The GSC guy I played was Todd Silber, who is an extremely good player here in the New England area. He brought 2 brigade and 1 battalion of GSC, so he started the game with 32 CP, and gathered another 3-4 over the game. He did not bring a single genestealer (other than the patriarch). It was a brutal assault list that showed up in your face. That's going to be a sleeper list that will not catch on until you see it clobber someone at a GT.
My biggest challenge running nurgle at ITC events is this : Nurgle is a point deny list. It's really hard to kill a unit at turn from nurgle lists. This limits the amount of points my opponent can extract from me, but because my army is also not that killy it also limits the points that I can earn. Most games have ended in the mid to late 20s in points. Sometimes I'm a few points ahead, sometimes I'm a few points behind, but rarely is it a blowout of 30-15.
Tzeentch does not have that same issue. Tzeentch is more killy and can merge with the 1k sons more easily (see the SOT idea above).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/23 17:39:41
Zid wrote: The main reason i say that is greater demons are very, very squishy. If you deep strike, you rely on a 9" charge to get use of the strat. GUO is not very hard to kill, especially in netas used to Mortarian w/ miasma, its basically the same thing. But if you are finding success with it, thats great! I prefer Death Guard as my warlords because the plate relic is amazing, or the Skullreaver prince.
The relic plate is bonkers good.
One of the things I'm going to try is mixing in some 1k sons with my tzeentch daemons. I'm bringing my nurgle brigade for 5cp, then some flamers to deep strike and a squad of Sarab Occult Terminators. Then for my last unit I was going to bring a supreme command of 1k sons daemon princes. I'm going to play around with it and let you know how it works.
Don't get me wrong about the GUO. He still dies. In the past 6 games I've played in, he has died 5 times. Has he 'earned his points back'? It depends on the game. He wrecked a knight, and a necron tessearact. I've also had him walk over enemy HQs. Bumping nurgle daemons LD to 10 helps when my plaguebearers are getting shot to bits. His role is not just 'earning his points back' however. There is a reason I try not to use that term. It's because the game is not won by the number of points a model kills. It's scored on objectives, killing units, and secondaries. I'll gladly trade 1500 points for 300 points of models if it makes me get those objectives.
I don't mind my opponent killing the GUO, because I'm feeding it to him. If it gives me board control for X turns in Y space, then it's 'earned its points back' by giving me more battlepoints.
The GSC guy I played was Todd Silber, who is an extremely good player here in the New England area. He brought 2 brigade and 1 battalion of GSC, so he started the game with 32 CP, and gathered another 3-4 over the game. He did not bring a single genestealer (other than the patriarch). It was a brutal assault list that showed up in your face. That's going to be a sleeper list that will not catch on until you see it clobber someone at a GT.
My biggest challenge running nurgle at ITC events is this : Nurgle is a point deny list. It's really hard to kill a unit at turn from nurgle lists. This limits the amount of points my opponent can extract from me, but because my army is also not that killy it also limits the points that I can earn. Most games have ended in the mid to late 20s in points. Sometimes I'm a few points ahead, sometimes I'm a few points behind, but rarely is it a blowout of 30-15.
Tzeentch does not have that same issue. Tzeentch is more killy and can merge with the 1k sons more easily (see the SOT idea above).
I run Nurgle/1k sons all the time, its pretty insane how well it works together. Scarabs are pretty incredible, Flamers feel like you are double dipping unless hordes are so common for you. Flamers are good assassins too, ds in and pick up a sniper or support character (12" flamers goooooood).
I generally go with Death Guard myself, Blightlord terminators are incredible, and arxh contaminator is probably my favorite warlord trait in the game combined with what DG can bring. Ive recently began runnning GW dreads and they are crazy good.
One thing i love is we do have a lot of routes to go, its just not as easy to plug and win like Castellan + whatever other stufd you want to run. I also fear Deathwatch is about to become very common, which is bad for demons :/ i like your idea with Scarabs, sadly i dont have any. I feel like you could do a tzeentch vanguard or aomething and mix and match 1k sons and demons, as long as you dont feel like you will be missing the 6" to cast.
The 1k sons supreme command detachment is the secret sauce in that mix too. That unlocks all your 1k sons stratagems, and you still have the daemons one from your nurgle brigade.
I think your sweet spot with flamers is 6 in a squad too. That puts them just at 1CP to deep strike, and they are doing 6d6 auto hits (21 hits on average). If you manage to get a flickering flame on them, that will do some serious work. If you get a herald nearby in addition to that, you can do serious work on a ork boys squad.
I seem to face a lot of 'loota bombs', so having something that can quickly tear apart the grots is pretty critical to me.
I've been thinking about your video, and really liking the idea of using the SoT with Pox, Prescience, and vets of the long war in one round. You are looking at 40 shots, hitting on 2s, and wounding most things on 2s with a -2 AP. Even against a Knight, the bolt guns are wounding on 4s. The 4 crack missiles also wounding on 2s. If you have a prince near them, the math looks like this...
(35/36 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * 40 shots = 19.44 wounds
(35/36 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (3.5 wounds per shot) * 4 shots = 11.34 wounds
On average that's one very dead knight. Sure, it will take a lot to pull off. Two powers and a 1 CP stratagem. The look on your opponents face though....priceless.
labmouse42 wrote: The 1k sons supreme command detachment is the secret sauce in that mix too. That unlocks all your 1k sons stratagems, and you still have the daemons one from your nurgle brigade.
I think your sweet spot with flamers is 6 in a squad too. That puts them just at 1CP to deep strike, and they are doing 6d6 auto hits (21 hits on average). If you manage to get a flickering flame on them, that will do some serious work. If you get a herald nearby in addition to that, you can do serious work on a ork boys squad.
I seem to face a lot of 'loota bombs', so having something that can quickly tear apart the grots is pretty critical to me.
I've been thinking about your video, and really liking the idea of using the SoT with Pox, Prescience, and vets of the long war in one round. You are looking at 40 shots, hitting on 2s, and wounding most things on 2s with a -2 AP. Even against a Knight, the bolt guns are wounding on 4s. The 4 crack missiles also wounding on 2s. If you have a prince near them, the math looks like this...
(35/36 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * 40 shots = 19.44 wounds
(35/36 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (3.5 wounds per shot) * 4 shots = 11.34 wounds
On average that's one very dead knight. Sure, it will take a lot to pull off. Two powers and a 1 CP stratagem. The look on your opponents face though....priceless.
I like the way you think! If i had 10 occults i would totally do this, lol. Marines seem to be making a huge comeback here, damn deathwatch.
Zid wrote: I like the way you think! If i had 10 occults i would totally do this, lol. Marines seem to be making a huge comeback here, damn deathwatch.
I've been thinking of how this is going to effect the meta. A lot more bolter shots is going to have an impact on the smaller daemons. Will we move from plaguebearer carpets to smaller units of brimstone? I don't know yet. We will have to wait until it shakes out and see.
Scarab Occult Terminators are quite awesome now that they have always 4 shots each at full range. I am building a list that has both board control elements as strong alpha strike capabilities with a bloodletter bomb and a Tzaangor bomb.
Is a single Lord of Change too fragile of a character to run, even with the 3++ and reduced damage by 1?
If I get turn 1, the pink horrors can, when provided with the right buffs put out an insane amount of fire power to really whittle down enemy infantry units. Turn two the bloodletters and the terminators drop, who together will probably eat most of my CP.
With the banner of blood and their ability to fight twice the bloodletters are capable of not only getting their charge off on whatever they want to charge but also killing just about any unit they come in contact with.
I can also drop the terminators and shave some points to get a knight in there or even a knight and 2 helverine armigers.
Barnie25 wrote: Is a single Lord of Change too fragile of a character to run, even with the 3++ and reduced damage by 1?
I've ran it a few times, and the answer is 'yes'.
That 3++ is really clutch to save against those heavy hits.
Do you really need those cultists? You can merge them with daemons if they share the Tzeentch keyword. If you can find a way to get a supreme command of 3 1k sons characters, you can still access the VotLW stratagem.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/25 00:05:07
p5freak wrote: My chaos daemons codex has a herald of slaanesh on p.101.
Not a mounted one.
Index Heralds can use all the powers, Relics and Traits from the Codex, if they meet the requirements for same.
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pretty sure they can't use the codex power, as the index datasheet specify which power list they can use, and they make direct reference to the page number and powers from the index, and nothing from the codex say that the updated discipline completly replace the index discipline. As far as the game is concerned, they are 2 different discipline.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/25 19:08:06
Codex and Index both say "from the Slaanesh discipline". The general rule where something is reprinted in a Codex is that it replaces the Index. Ergo, "the Slaanesh discipline" is now to be found on p.133 of the Codex, not p.69 of the Index. Aside from Smite, none of the Index Datasheets make any reference to specific powers that I can see.
EDIT - Your point about the page numbers is a good one and not something I had previously considered. I don't know what to make of it, frankly, so I think I'm gonna kick this over to YMDC.
EDIT 2 - There's already a seven-page thread in YMDC about whether Index Librarians can use Codex powers and there is no conclusive answer, IMO.
To bolster my point however, I will point out that Codex: Chaos Daemons says, on page 132, that;
Before the battle, generate the psychic powers for PSYKERS that can use powers from the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh discipline using the table below.
Emphasis in original.
A Herald on a Seeker Chariot and a Herald on Steed, therefore, would be "PSYKERS that can use powers from... ...the Slaanesh discipline" and would generate powers "using the table below".
I am flip-flopping between a second unit of Pinks in my list and a unit of 6 Flamers, so I decided to do a damage output comparison. However, damage isn’t the only consideration. Pinks fill up a Troop slot, while Flamers don’t, so I have to add the troop tax to the cost of the Flamer unit. 6 Flamers + 10 Brims = 180pts 20x Pink Horrors with Icon = 155pts This is VERY ROUGHLY the same points cost (although 25pts is 25pts).
Both units have a similar function: clear hordes. The damage comparison will determine which one is better at it, but I’ll wait till the end to get to that. Objectives The Brims can sit on a backfield objective while Flamers threaten other parts of the board. But the Pinks are ObSec, so those midfield objectives they control are that much harder for the enemy to contest. Flamers+Brims can also more easily be on two objectives, since they are two units. While it’s possible for the Pinks, spreading out that much will detract from shooting effectiveness, so it’s a bad idea. I’d call that a near-tie in terms of which choice holds objectives better, with a very slight advantage to the Pinks (simply because having midfield ObSec is good). Durability Brims + Flamers have a total of 22 wounds and Pinks have a total of 20. The average save of Brims+Flamers is worse than the Pinks’ save. Flamers are vulnerable to multi-damage weapons. Brims can hide more easily due to their small size. Pinks are vulnerable to morale, but can Blink (although it isn’t likely). I’d say the Brims+Flamers win this category. You only actually have to kill 12 in order to statistically wipe the Pinks from morale. Flamers+Brims 97 Marine boltshots 189 guardsmen lasguns Pink Horrors 90 Marine boltshots 120 guardsmen lasguns Mobility Flamers and Pinks are both going into the Warp for 1CP each; although Flamers can realistically start on the board, depending on matchup, hide (because of smaller unit size), and still get some good shooting because of 12” FLY. When they arrive, the Pinks have a slightly longer range, which helps reach multiple chaff units at once, if you want to split fire (though that’s not the best idea given their average BS). However, the Flamers have a smaller footprint, meaning it’s more difficult to screen them out. When they are on the board, the Flamers are definitely quicker and can FLY; their smaller footprint and greater movement means that they can hit units that the enemy is trying to keep hidden. I’d definitely give this category to the Brims+Flamers. Assault While neither unit is good in combat, the Pinks can much more easily surround an enemy model. (Yes, I’ve had Pinks lock down vehicles before, and it’s as dumb as it sounds). Flamers present an ENORMOUS charge deterrent—IF you can charge, you WILL get flamed. Flamers can also fall back and still shoot the next turn. I’d call this a win for the Flamers+Brims. Shooting Pinks get 60 shots, while Flamers get 6d6. On average, that's 30 hits for Pinks, and 21 hits for Flamers. I’ll test against a variety of targets, and assume that both units have a Changecaster and Flickerfire. I’ll even include Princely rerolls for the Pinks in parentheses. I have put Flamers in orange and Pinks in violet/pink. Standard Deviation was smaller for the Flamers. It was around 2.5 for the Flamers, and 3.6 for the Pinks. I can do this many wounds… Marines 8.75 6.67 (7.78) Guardsmen 14.62 16.67 (19.5) Cultists 17.45 20.83 (24.31) Ork Boyz 17.5 16.67 (19.44) Eldar Rangers 8.75 5.5 (6.5) Altaioc Rangers 8.75 2.75 (3.25) Plaguebearers at -1 7.82 5.93 (6.91) Pink Horrors 8.75 12.5 (14.58) Flamers 8.75 10 (11.67) Vehicles 5.25 5 (5.83) Marine Flyers 5.25 3.33 (3.89) Eldar Flyers 7 5 (5.83)
So, overall, across a large variety of targets, the two units are pretty close. Flamers edge it out against things with good toughness and save (Marines, vehicles) and against things with negs to hit (obviously); Pinks edge it out against the softest screens (Cultists, Guardsmen, lesser Daemons). On the tabletop, Flamers will have a better target priority, because of their 12” FLY; they aren’t tied up in combat; they deter assaults.
If you already have one unit of Pinks, then a second unit is not as useful as a unit of Flamers, in my opinion based on the stuff I learned here. Overall, I think I’m gonna say that Brims+Flamers are the winner. So I’ll be adjusting my list accordingly.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
otherwise hes a large space marine.
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