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 AuntHerbert wrote:

I feel like Flamers received a double buff. Giving an extra mobility option to Heralds also benefits them a lot.

Except tzeentch heralds are really bad. Tzeentch psychic powers mostly suck, except flickering flames. Boon of change is random, gaze of fate is ok. The fluxmaster and changecaster are horrible. Those heralds can only cast one power, they are S3/T3, have no ranged weapon, and only WS4+ with 2 attacks, and they cost 78/99 pts. Tzeentch is the god of magic, it makes a lot of sense that his psykers are among the worst in the game

That's 78/99 points, that buff Flamer attacks with +1 strength AND +1 to wound, If you bring enough Flamers and mostly care about buffing them, that ain't that bad.
If you want to show an Eldar player what's up, spend 5 CP to drop 18 Flamers and a Herald from warp, and watch a fully equipped Waveserpent desintegrate at impact.
That worked already before the current buffs.

Over 400 points and 5 CP with short ranged guns and a giant footprint to kill a Wave Serpent?

 Eldarain wrote:
Over 400 points and 5 CP with short ranged guns and a giant footprint to kill a Wave Serpent?

400 points payed for a 600 points change in atrition balance (other than his wave serpents, your flamers are still alive, after all, and he has to deal with them) ain't bad in my book.

Also, if his game plan is "Nananana, noone can hit my stuff" snuffing his most expensive model on turn 2 will seriously mess with his head.

Also, short ranged guns - on a mobile platform, with 4+ invuln saves.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Lol @ fiends wiping out units with the Stratagem. It is true, but it is anti-synergy. You want fiends *not* to kill something, so the fiends and whatever is with them can stay locked in combat.

Locked in combat except for units with the FLY keyword, which can't be locked. Whenever my fiends get locked in combat I get counter-charged in opponents next turn and I lose my fiends.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
That's 78/99 points, that buff Flamer attacks with +1 strength AND +1 to wound, If you bring enough Flamers and mostly care about buffing them, that ain't that bad.
If you want to show an Eldar player what's up, spend 5 CP to drop 18 Flamers and a Herald from warp, and watch a fully equipped Waveserpent desintegrate at impact.
That worked already before the current buffs.

What ? How are you casting flickering flames on 18 flamers ? You can only do that on 9 flamers, one unit. And you need to manifest it first, you can fail at that, or it can be denied.

I've personally started looking at a battalion of 1 Fluxmaster, 1 LoC, 3x 10 Brimstones and 1x 9 Flamers.

Relatively cheap as things go, but, it's all going to depend on the new CP setup as it'll be a CP hungry detachment alongside my Thousand Sons.

Kdash wrote:
I've personally started looking at a battalion of 1 Fluxmaster, 1 LoC, 3x 10 Brimstones and 1x 9 Flamers.

Relatively cheap as things go, but, it's all going to depend on the new CP setup as it'll be a CP hungry detachment alongside my Thousand Sons.

I would always include one Blue Horror with every unit of Brimstones, just so you can chose to cast 1 Smite per turn without burning up a model.

I didn’t want too write anything yet, as we do not know all the rules yet. But so far, it’s just an updated codex with minimal addons.

But dear people. On the index or whatever it’s called (start of the book where you see what the book includes) we do see stuff for allegiance, lords of the warp, legions demonica and updated datasheets for some things like bloodcrushers (hope they get something good).

An Exalted greater Daemon. We only know that they get 1-2 more abilities but hopefully they also get a few wounds more and something.

As for the flamer unit. They are good, possible the best of Tzeentch. Drop in 6-9 and cast flickering flames to kill or seriously hurt something and then give them a 3++ invul for better survival.

Sadly Tzeentch is suppose to be the psychic God but I fell that it gave that up in 8th Ed and started to shoot instead.

 p5freak wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:
That's 78/99 points, that buff Flamer attacks with +1 strength AND +1 to wound, If you bring enough Flamers and mostly care about buffing them, that ain't that bad.
If you want to show an Eldar player what's up, spend 5 CP to drop 18 Flamers and a Herald from warp, and watch a fully equipped Waveserpent desintegrate at impact.
That worked already before the current buffs.

What ? How are you casting flickering flames on 18 flamers ? You can only do that on 9 flamers, one unit. And you need to manifest it first, you can fail at that, or it can be denied.

Don't cry on my shirt, run it through a mathhammer app of your choice. Also, don't strawman my arguments.

jivardi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Lol @ fiends wiping out units with the Stratagem. It is true, but it is anti-synergy. You want fiends *not* to kill something, so the fiends and whatever is with them can stay locked in combat.

Locked in combat except for units with the FLY keyword, which can't be locked. Whenever my fiends get locked in combat I get counter-charged in opponents next turn and I lose my fiends.

My tactic is to run my KoS near my fiends. The fiends lock the enemy with the Keeper, making the Keeper immune to shooting. If the enemy charges the fiends, heroically intervene with the Keeper and pop the -1 attack in an aura Stratagem.

Unless you used the LD reduction strat last turn on the fiends and the enemy was able to disengage because of the extra casualties. Then the keeper gets shot off the board.

Tazberry wrote:
I didn’t want too write anything yet, as we do not know all the rules yet. But so far, it’s just an updated codex with minimal addons.

But dear people. On the index or whatever it’s called (start of the book where you see what the book includes) we do see stuff for allegiance, lords of the warp, legions demonica and updated datasheets for some things like bloodcrushers (hope they get something good).

An Exalted greater Daemon. We only know that they get 1-2 more abilities but hopefully they also get a few wounds more and something.

As for the flamer unit. They are good, possible the best of Tzeentch. Drop in 6-9 and cast flickering flames to kill or seriously hurt something and then give them a 3++ invul for better survival.

Sadly Tzeentch is suppose to be the psychic God but I fell that it gave that up in 8th Ed and started to shoot instead.

The full rules have been leaked. Here is a mirror https://imgur.com/a/FViUEMk

Note that one rule is missing from this: Daemonic Jealousy. You cannot CHOOSE the same exalted trait twice in your army. You CAN have the same exalted trait twice if you receive it randomly


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A few highlights:

-IMO, all the exalted tables except for Slaanesh are good enough to roll randomly on twice instead of picking 1 buff. MAYBE you want to pick on the GUO table, just to avoid the 4 and 6 result, which aren't bad but don't seem particularly great for what a GUO wants to do. Slaanesh definitely has 3 not so great results and 3 much better results. If it were me I would choose the 1 result if I had a turn 1 tempo slaanesh army and the 2 or 3 results (maybe both on 2 separate keeprs) if I had a turn 2 tempo slaanesh army.

-The artifacts seem to be the weakest point overall. The Tome for Tzeentch is good but not better than the Impossible Robe, the Rune of Brass is solid for Khorne in the situation of you being against a smitespam army but otherwise it's basically down to the Axe, which is a 50-50 chance of your Bloodthirster getting to use the Knights get back up strat for free...with extra restrictions.

-stratagems seem meh, with Tzeentch ones being the best and Khorne ones being the worst, probably down to the baseline functionalities of the units they go on...khorne units start out pretty bad. Tzeentch can now guarantee a smite for 1 unit of horrors even after they've smited with their more important psykers, they can give a unit of flamers a few mortal wounds, and they can give screamers a much needed +1 to wound vs heavy targets.

It's mostly about those exalted tables though. I would consider Greater Daemons to just, from now on have a 1cp cost per guy. Zero reason to take a Greater Daemon and not grab one of these traits or roll for 2 depending on what you've got.

Those cant be the full rules. The infinite forms of corruption is missing, thats 2 pages. There are 10 pictures leaked, but its 12 pages of new rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:

I feel like Flamers received a double buff. Giving an extra mobility option to Heralds also benefits them a lot.

Except tzeentch heralds are really bad. Tzeentch psychic powers mostly suck, except flickering flames. Boon of change is random, gaze of fate is ok. The fluxmaster and changecaster are horrible. Those heralds can only cast one power, they are S3/T3, have no ranged weapon, and only WS4+ with 2 attacks, and they cost 78/99 pts. Tzeentch is the god of magic, it makes a lot of sense that his psykers are among the worst in the game

I don't mind the Fateskimmer personally. +1S aura is better on Tzeentch than basically anyone else because you've got some fairly good strength break points in the army (Screamers S6->7, Flamers S4->5, Horrors S3->4 are often a +1 to wound) and only one cast doesn't hurt that bad. He's a good choice to be your Warlord since he's less likely to be focused down and the Daemonspark trait is good where he probably wants to be on the board (Aura buffing your lads) and you've got a pretty obvious power that's just made for him in Flickering Flames. You take Boon as the second one and you can allow him to double-cast with a stratagem on the turn when you want him to put down both buffs on a big horror blob or unit of flamers.


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 p5freak wrote:
Those cant be the full rules. The infinite forms of corruption is missing, thats 2 pages.

I don't know, that's what I've seen. Maybe that's like a name generator or something, or else there's more rules I haven't seen.

the_scotsman wrote:

I don't mind the Fateskimmer personally. +1S aura is better on Tzeentch than basically anyone else because you've got some fairly good strength break points in the army (Screamers S6->7, Flamers S4->5, Horrors S3->4 are often a +1 to wound) and only one cast doesn't hurt that bad. He's a good choice to be your Warlord since he's less likely to be focused down and the Daemonspark trait is good where he probably wants to be on the board (Aura buffing your lads) and you've got a pretty obvious power that's just made for him in Flickering Flames. You take Boon as the second one and you can allow him to double-cast with a stratagem on the turn when you want him to put down both buffs on a big horror blob or unit of flamers.

Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.

It’s not the full rules as it is 26 pages of rules for daemons plus a name generator.

As I said above. It’s missing stuff like updated datasheets for some things and “lords of the warp” whatever that is. Also “allegiance” Which I hope is new rules and BETTER rules for mono God.

Soon enough we will know and can try it out.

 p5freak wrote:

Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.

And now please list all of them, that also come with a relevant aura buff....

Just imagine the strength buff as the result of an auto-resolve psy power to fulfill all of your fluff wishes.

 AuntHerbert wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Over 400 points and 5 CP with short ranged guns and a giant footprint to kill a Wave Serpent?

400 points payed for a 600 points change in atrition balance (other than his wave serpents, your flamers are still alive, after all, and he has to deal with them) ain't bad in my book.

Also, if his game plan is "Nananana, noone can hit my stuff" snuffing his most expensive model on turn 2 will seriously mess with his head.

Also, short ranged guns - on a mobile platform, with 4+ invuln saves.

Wave serpents are practically the last thing you want to shoot when you're fighting eldar. They're bullet sponges with extremely high durability for their points cost.

As an eldar player, I would be thrilled watch you sacrifice 5CP and 2 maxed out flamer units to kill a single screening unit.

Yes, but as a desperate salt miner, you don't care anyways.

 AuntHerbert wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.

And now please list all of them, that also come with a relevant aura buff....

OTOH, S3/T3, no ranged weapon, 2 attacks in melee, WS4+ for 78 pts. A chaos sorcerer has S4/T4, boltgun, WS3+, 3 attacks, better melee weapon, can cast two powers, 3+ sv for 88 pts.

I don't "sacrifice" the Flamers, I place them on the board, where the Eldar player has to deal with them, and remove his biggest craft while I do so.

The Eldar can't kite them with Shuriken weapon, as Flamers match the 24" threat range, and the longer range guns aren't really effective against Flamers.
And no, if you want to tell me, that an Eldar Player can ignore something, that can pop his tanks in a single turn, I will laugh in your face.

The expense of 5 CP IS questionable, with good positioning and use of terrain it's probably possible to home in those Flamers much cheaper, even when starting on the board.
But that really doesn't undermine my point, that Flamers are good and fielding a Herald to buff them makes sense..


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 p5freak wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.

And now please list all of them, that also come with a relevant aura buff....

OTOH, S3/T3, no ranged weapon, 2 attacks in melee, WS4+ for 78 pts. A chaos sorcerer has S4/T4, boltgun, WS3+, 3 attacks, better melee weapon, can cast two powers, 3+ sv for 88 pts.

Actually S4, as they are always in range of their own aura. But you don't buy them for melee, and you usually don't buy a sorcerer for his bolt gun. And as I said, just imagine the buff being worded as
"Locus of Tzeentch has a warp power of auto resolve, can't be denied, and can't cause perils. Select all TZEENTCH DAEMON units with at least one model within 6". Add 1 to the Strength characteristic of each model in that unit" That's a good power
Oh, forgot to mention, also that Chaos Sorcerer has no invuln save. Which is more relevant than his melee or shooting stats..
Ohh, and the Herald is also a Tzeentch Daemon character, so, if fielded in a mono Tzeentch detachment he randomly removes enemy melee hits within 12" which is also more relevant...
Yeah, sure horribly horribad package in comparison.

 AuntHerbert wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Tzeentch psykers shouldnt need a stratagem to cast a second power. Pretty much every psyker for about the same points can cast two powers.

And now please list all of them, that also come with a relevant aura buff....

OTOH, S3/T3, no ranged weapon, 2 attacks in melee, WS4+ for 78 pts. A chaos sorcerer has S4/T4, boltgun, WS3+, 3 attacks, better melee weapon, can cast two powers, 3+ sv for 88 pts.

Actually S4, as they are always in range of their own aura. But you don't buy them for melee, and you usually don't buy a sorcerer for his bolt gun. And as I said, just imagine the buff being worded as
"Locus of Tzeentch has a warp power of auto resolve, can't be denied, and can't cause perils. Select all TZEENTCH DAEMON units with at least one model within 6". Add 1 to the Strength characteristic of each model in that unit" That's a good power
Oh, forgot to mention, also that Chaos Sorcerer has no invuln save. Which is more relevant than his melee or shooting stats..
Ohh, and the Herald is also a Tzeentch Daemon character, so, if fielded in a mono Tzeentch detachment he randomly removes enemy melee hits within 12" which is also more relevant...
Yeah, sure horribly horribad package in comparison.

The buff locus of tzeentch isn't worded like that, what are you talking about ?
The roll 2D6 in the fight phase and discard higher dice is almost useless. If you roll a 1 or 2 on one or both dice it does almost nothing. The majority of units hits on 3 or 4.

ARE _ YOU _ABLE _ TO _READ ???

 Aunt Herbert wrote:
just imagine the buff being worded as

If the buff actually were a psychic power, that is what it - would - have to sound like. So I rewrote it, so it would be easier even for a saltmining troll like you to compare them. But off course, you just reverted to your default position of complaining and crying. I should have known better.

And the Tzeentch detachment locus is decent against a specific type of attackers: melee specialists, with a good WS and the ability to turn single hits into multiple wounds. But please, don't bother to discuss it, I run out of soft tissues for you.

indeed mono Tz was a dominating force... in 3 years of 8th edition tournaments, only Tz units i met was pink horrors and foot heralds, yeah a force to be reckoned. But the problem is not Tz itself, is the whole CD codex, outside of friendly games it sucks, i played CD for the whole 8th edition, at any level of play, after space marines release, they stand no chance, the strongest list that was played (60+ Pb's and TS soup) is unplayable against marines with all their re rolls and tons of sniping, CD need a deep drastical improvement or you will keep play them just in friendly or low competitive games.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

jivardi wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Lol @ fiends wiping out units with the Stratagem. It is true, but it is anti-synergy. You want fiends *not* to kill something, so the fiends and whatever is with them can stay locked in combat.

Locked in combat except for units with the FLY keyword, which can't be locked. Whenever my fiends get locked in combat I get counter-charged in opponents next turn and I lose my fiends.

My tactic is to run my KoS near my fiends. The fiends lock the enemy with the Keeper, making the Keeper immune to shooting. If the enemy charges the fiends, heroically intervene with the Keeper and pop the -1 attack in an aura Stratagem.

Unless you used the LD reduction strat last turn on the fiends and the enemy was able to disengage because of the extra casualties. Then the keeper gets shot off the board.

Yeah, Fiends are a combo unit that want to enable a beatstick to be a spiky tarpit. I dunno how competitive it’ll be, but I’m cautiously optimistic it’ll be usefully flexible, being able to choose between the Fiends enabling the KoS to pick between taking hostages and eating their souls to heal


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Wow, Jewel of Excess makes the Epitome a very reliable Hysterical Frenzy caster and DTW machine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you try to sextuple exalt a GD, a rules lawyer will argue that you only reroll if the roll is a double, not if you already have the result you rolled. Don’t make any plans for this all-your-eggs-in-one-basket approach until we’ve seen 9ed *and* the EW FAQ.


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If you really wanna stack exaltations, probably best to have one random and one chosen? Even then, you may be disappointed come the FAQ

It seems to me like you've got one subfaction that really wants to pick the Exalted buffs, and that's slaanesh, and one that really wants to roll, and that's Tzeentch. I can think of almost no situation on that Tzeentch table where I'd rather have 1 power than another 2. Maybe if I really want to dump a bucket of mortal wounds with infernal gateway I want to pick Lord of Flux, but I think mostly I'd stick with rolling 2.

For slaanesh, it's going to depend on how the rest of your army is structured. If you've got a turn 2 tempo list and your gameplan revolves around having enough meat on your bones to survive a full turn's firepower before you get your daemonetes and your syll'eskes and your keepers into combat with all the buffs and stratagems to allow even the beaten-up version of your force to tie up the enemy and take them out, then you want to pick the -1 to wound and the 4++ traits for your keepers. If instead you want to take chariots and seekers and fiends and get your gak into as much of the enemy as possible turn 1 to stop them from getting that initial salvo, then you really want to have realm-racer to get that fairly reliable turn 1 charge.

For Nurgle and Khorne, I'd say it's situational. +2 to Charge really makes deep striking a bloodthirster a serious option for consideration, but there's also some solid buffs in there that if you were to just plop a thirster down on the board, I think it'd make sense to just roll on the table and get 2 buffs. The big problem that thirsters (and by extension, the rest of khorne) has is being utterly, totally useless until they get into combat, and it's really easy to degrade a bloodthirster enough with shooting just to slow it down and ensure it never arrives. Make the thirster nasty enough, and degradation doesn't matter nearly as much. Make it tough enough, and you can't as easily degrade it for its point cost. If both routes work, just having more for the same CP cost makes sense.

Use one exalted BT with the max 8 wounds loss per phase ability, 6+ FNP warlord trait, and the new relic axe which allows him to get back up on 4+. The rest of the army is DPs, and anything else hides in the warp. Your opponent can only shoot the BT T1. He wont be able to kill him T1. If your opponent manages to kill the BT on T2, you have a 75% chance (4+ with reroll) that he gets up again. On T2 your entire army hits your opponent in the face.

another major issue of pure melee demons lists are screens, they cant just remove them and the valuable units behind are safe. You can have a supesyan BT but if you forced to charge 5 scouts or 10 Tau drones... is useless.

 blackmage wrote:
another major issue of pure melee demons lists are screens, they cant just remove them and the valuable units behind are safe. You can have a supesyan BT but if you forced to charge 5 scouts or 10 Tau drones... is useless.

How is it useless when the BT can regenerate wounds from them ?

These days people build armies to kill 1-2 knights a turn. Dealing 8 wounds to a T7 3+/4++/6+++ model is trivial for a competitive list. And if your opponent has anything capable of pulling off a T1 charge, that bloodthirster is toast. Genestealers, disco lords, shining spears, knights... heck, psyker-heavy lists can do 8w in the psychic phase. I don't even want to get into what space marines can do to a bloodthirster...

Even if the bloodthirster survives past T1 the best outcome is for him to limp into combat at bottom bracket with a 50 point chaff unit.