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 slave.entity wrote:
These days people build armies to kill 1-2 knights a turn. Dealing 8 wounds to a T7 3+/4++/6+++ model is trivial for a competitive list. And if your opponent has anything capable of pulling off a T1 charge, that bloodthirster is toast. Genestealers, disco lords, shining spears, knights... heck, psyker-heavy lists can do 8w in the psychic phase. I don't even want to get into what space marines can do to a bloodthirster...

Even if the bloodthirster survives past T1 the best outcome is for him to limp into combat at bottom bracket with a 50 point chaff unit.

It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away

It works only if your opponent fails to inflict 8W on the BT in the psychic phase. You have to deploy it at the front of your army, and If they smite it to half health, it falls and they freely targets whatever is the most dangerous thing in your army

I can’t see it working. The Knight-busting metagame doesn’t use Smite, because it’s so easily countered. Enable that metagame to throw it in, and it makes your wall easily killable in a single turn. If anything it’s more vulnerable to armies other than Tau, Necrons, Sisters and Khorne.

Ghazghkull could pull it off, but not us


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maaaybe soup could make it work with Ahriman and a souped-up Epitome on DTW duty

 p5freak wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
another major issue of pure melee demons lists are screens, they cant just remove them and the valuable units behind are safe. You can have a supesyan BT but if you forced to charge 5 scouts or 10 Tau drones... is useless.

How is it useless when the BT can regenerate wounds from them ?

if your BT charge scouts and then be wipped out from table..seem like is useless...of course i talk abour a capable opponent. You still believe that a decent opponent let you charge his IK, veichles, characters? If that is the case change opponent and find a capable one


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
These days people build armies to kill 1-2 knights a turn. Dealing 8 wounds to a T7 3+/4++/6+++ model is trivial for a competitive list. And if your opponent has anything capable of pulling off a T1 charge, that bloodthirster is toast. Genestealers, disco lords, shining spears, knights... heck, psyker-heavy lists can do 8w in the psychic phase. I don't even want to get into what space marines can do to a bloodthirster...

Even if the bloodthirster survives past T1 the best outcome is for him to limp into combat at bottom bracket with a 50 point chaff unit.

someone who know how competitive play is, high 5
before cv19 stop i played a list with 90 cultists discolord 6 obly and ts supreme command (ahrimann PD and termy sorc) BT die as soon as put his nouse out and will kill if lucky 10 cultists, GD aren't made for high competition sadly and i tell it because i own 3 KOS 1 LOC and 1 GUO i would like play them. Maybe Kos cause they are fast enough

 lindsay40k wrote:

It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away

What was the FAQ?

 blackmage wrote:


someone who know how competitive play is, high 5
before cv19 stop i played a list with 90 cultists discolord 6 obly and ts supreme command (ahrimann PD and termy sorc) BT die as soon as put his nouse out and will kill if lucky 10 cultists, GD aren't made for high competition sadly and i tell it because i own 3 KOS 1 LOC and 1 GUO i would like play them. Maybe Kos cause they are fast enough

I learned a lot from reading your posts in this thread when I was getting started with daemons at the beginning of 8th edition. Thanks for posting your experiences

Do you think you will be trying some 3x Exalted KOS lists with the new rules?

i will try 3x or 4x, im still unsure about GD but perhaps Slaanesh and new terrain rules might work. CD need a new codex anyway

As a long time competitive daemons player... I'm very disappointed.

The main issue comes from trying to buff greater daemons who's basic form is just ineffective in the current game of 40k. Maybe this will change for 9th edition, but I can only analyse from an 8th edition perspective.

Greater Daemons suffer from:
- Being too easy to kill. When most enemy armies are geared to kill at least one (T8 W24 3+/5++) Knight per turn, a Greater Daemon has T7 W16 5++.
- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain
- Crippling damage profiles. At top bracket they are reasonably mean, but by bottom or even middle tier they can be safely ignored by most armies. A Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage on bottom tier barely kills a single marine.
- No force projection. Most of the Greater Daemons can't act at range to any appreciable extent, which means they can only affect regions of the board that they can reach.
- No force multiplication. The Greater Daemons don't buff their army very well.
- Easily manipulated. Being a large-based single model with a low number of high damage attacks sucks really bad. It is very easy for enemies to manipulate your attacks by screens or tactical model placement/removal.

So anything in the book needs to address many of these points to make greater daemons palatable.

And does it?
Bloodthirster: I think the best ability is actually the +2" charge. Deepstrike a Bloodthirster, a 7" charge with rerolls is a 5/6 chance. The ability to HI 6" makes it hard for most enemies to run away.
Lord of Change: Most of these are decent - to the point that I wouldn't mind rolling on this table - but the -1 to hit is a standout when combined with Impossible Robe & Incorporeal Form. Spell thief is obviously brilliant in the right match.
Nurgle: +1T and +1FNP are big increases to survivability. Still not sure I'd take one.
Slaanesh: Two good increases to survivability with a 4++ and -1 to wound, but my favourite is actually the movement one. A Keeper of Secrets with the Celerity of Slaanesh warlord trait would have a threat range of 21+3D6".

Stratagems.
Khorne: The Infantry strat is way overcosted, and the Bloodcrusher strat sounds good but given Bloodcrusher base size I think it will be extremely rare to actually work like you would want. Flesh Hounds and Skull Cannons are bad and bad strats don't make them better. :(.
Tzeentch: Actual good strats here as a combo with Flamers and Fluxmasters: deepstrike the flamers, teleport the fluxmaster, flamer something with additional MW's will take out any target short of a titanic.
Nurgle: Rust and Decay is bad and has anti-synergy with nurgles other abilities. The Nurgling infestation ability is fun.
Slaanesh: The strats for Daemonettes and Seekers are really good. The strat for fiends is terrible and you should feel bad for using it.

Relics:
Ok, 2 nitpicks here.
1. There is obviously room for a 4th relic on each page. Is GW really that lazy?
2. These are maybe the most restricted relics in the game. you can only take it on an Exalted Greater Daemon and Only if a god of that type is your warlord?
Khorne. Eh. A bloodthirster dying and being reborn 24" from your opponent still isn't a threat.
Tzeentch: All ok, but not sure that you'd take any over the Impossible Robe.
Nurgle: The regain wounds one is very solid, especially with the 4+FNP trait. It also helps that Nurgle's other relics are terrible.
Slaanesh: I like the Whip of Agony a lot, its possibly enough to shoot your way out of combat with a screening unit.


Overall: There's a handful of decent options in here. Strictly better than nothing, but unlike some other other Codex's Psychic Awakening I don't see anything in here that I immediately want to build an army around. WHich in my humble experience means none of it is strictly competitive.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Wow, Jewel of Excess makes the Epitome a very reliable Hysterical Frenzy caster and DTW machine

You can only give the relic to Exalted daemons, so the Epitome can't have the jewel of excess.

Trasvi wrote:
As a long time competitive daemons player... I'm very disappointed.

The main issue comes from trying to buff greater daemons who's basic form is just ineffective in the current game of 40k. Maybe this will change for 9th edition, but I can only analyse from an 8th edition perspective.

Greater Daemons suffer from:
- Being too easy to kill. When most enemy armies are geared to kill at least one (T8 W24 3+/5++) Knight per turn, a Greater Daemon has T7 W16 5++.
- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain
- Crippling damage profiles. At top bracket they are reasonably mean, but by bottom or even middle tier they can be safely ignored by most armies. A Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage on bottom tier barely kills a single marine.
- No force projection. Most of the Greater Daemons can't act at range to any appreciable extent, which means they can only affect regions of the board that they can reach.
- No force multiplication. The Greater Daemons don't buff their army very well.
- Easily manipulated. Being a large-based single model with a low number of high damage attacks sucks really bad. It is very easy for enemies to manipulate your attacks by screens or tactical model placement/removal.

So anything in the book needs to address many of these points to make greater daemons palatable.

And does it?
Bloodthirster: I think the best ability is actually the +2" charge. Deepstrike a Bloodthirster, a 7" charge with rerolls is a 5/6 chance. The ability to HI 6" makes it hard for most enemies to run away.
Lord of Change: Most of these are decent - to the point that I wouldn't mind rolling on this table - but the -1 to hit is a standout when combined with Impossible Robe & Incorporeal Form. Spell thief is obviously brilliant in the right match.
Nurgle: +1T and +1FNP are big increases to survivability. Still not sure I'd take one.
Slaanesh: Two good increases to survivability with a 4++ and -1 to wound, but my favourite is actually the movement one. A Keeper of Secrets with the Celerity of Slaanesh warlord trait would have a threat range of 21+3D6".

Stratagems.
Khorne: The Infantry strat is way overcosted, and the Bloodcrusher strat sounds good but given Bloodcrusher base size I think it will be extremely rare to actually work like you would want. Flesh Hounds and Skull Cannons are bad and bad strats don't make them better. :(.
Tzeentch: Actual good strats here as a combo with Flamers and Fluxmasters: deepstrike the flamers, teleport the fluxmaster, flamer something with additional MW's will take out any target short of a titanic.
Nurgle: Rust and Decay is bad and has anti-synergy with nurgles other abilities. The Nurgling infestation ability is fun.
Slaanesh: The strats for Daemonettes and Seekers are really good. The strat for fiends is terrible and you should feel bad for using it.

Relics:
Ok, 2 nitpicks here.
1. There is obviously room for a 4th relic on each page. Is GW really that lazy?
2. These are maybe the most restricted relics in the game. you can only take it on an Exalted Greater Daemon and Only if a god of that type is your warlord?
Khorne. Eh. A bloodthirster dying and being reborn 24" from your opponent still isn't a threat.
Tzeentch: All ok, but not sure that you'd take any over the Impossible Robe.
Nurgle: The regain wounds one is very solid, especially with the 4+FNP trait. It also helps that Nurgle's other relics are terrible.
Slaanesh: I like the Whip of Agony a lot, its possibly enough to shoot your way out of combat with a screening unit.


Overall: There's a handful of decent options in here. Strictly better than nothing, but unlike some other other Codex's Psychic Awakening I don't see anything in here that I immediately want to build an army around. WHich in my humble experience means none of it is strictly competitive.

more or less agree on anything, this is main reason why the whole CD codex have to be reworked this PA will bring something but not enogh to bring back demons to be competitive, we can at least hope that new terrain rules in 9th gve our MC a chance.

I'd love to see 9E buff monsters. Greater daemons, carnifexes, wraithlords... even Guilliman could use a buff.

if they really did what they are talking about terrains, can happen we see some more MC around. Seems like some terrains with specific keyword will completely block LOS, is a huge buff to models like, magnus, mortarion, GD, tyranids MC.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away

What was the FAQ?

Sorry, correction - the new 9ed rule that you can’t stack modifiers. AL are wrecking with a list where an unkillable Lord Discordant T-poses for an untargetable Possessed horde. If you can avoid taking four smites, the buff BT list would do the same. But that’s a big if - the meta could quickly adapt to a proof of concept

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away

What was the FAQ?

Sorry, correction - the new 9ed rule that you can’t stack modifiers. AL are wrecking with a list where an unkillable Lord Discordant T-poses for an untargetable Possessed horde. If you can avoid taking four smites, the buff BT list would do the same. But that’s a big if - the meta could quickly adapt to a proof of concept

you really play 40K? compare an exalted BT with a an AL discolord is one of most no sense things i ever read in this forum, meta dont need to adapt to possessed bomb, its alreday ready, and i dont ever consider what GK does to that list.

 blackmage wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

It’s not about the BT, it’s about replicating the brutal ‘invisible Possessed’ AL list that’s been FAQ’d away

What was the FAQ?

Sorry, correction - the new 9ed rule that you can’t stack modifiers. AL are wrecking with a list where an unkillable Lord Discordant T-poses for an untargetable Possessed horde. If you can avoid taking four smites, the buff BT list would do the same. But that’s a big if - the meta could quickly adapt to a proof of concept

you really play 40K? compare an exalted BT with a an AL discolord is one of most no sense things i ever read in this forum

They both serve the job of "Stand in front of my blob of Possessed to make them untargetable and don't die."

Won't the Bloodthirster be better at that job now too as the gimmick that protects the Disco lord is getting dismantled?

no because BT DIE...

 blackmage wrote:
no because BT DIE...

Unless they're capped at taking 8 wounds a phase...

I mean, even then, it's not as RELIABLE, but it's there.

it DIE we already playtested with my group of play.

 blackmage wrote:
no because BT DIE...

That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.

Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.

A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for

Trasvi wrote:

- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain

HOW big they are? Here getting 1 knight into hidden isn't impossible at all. Armiger level fairly easy. Are they bigger than knights? Havent' seen new GD models live.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
no because BT DIE...

That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.

Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.

A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for

sadly can grant you that are more than 1 army that deliver 16+ wounds to a BT in a turn, shot+psychic and if not enough you are finish in melee, LOD had a -4 to hit outside 12" bubble -3 inside the bubble and -2 in melee, basically same inv.save and better armor save, and just 160pts, totally a different level.

tneva82 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

- Impossible to hide. The models are huge, so they can't be protected by terrain

HOW big they are? Here getting 1 knight into hidden isn't impossible at all. Armiger level fairly easy. Are they bigger than knights? Havent' seen new GD models live.

Maybe 'impossible' is hyperbole - somewhere out there someone has terrain which is just 2'x2' walls I'm sure - but in practice you need terrain that has the express purpose of hiding them.
I have to say I envy your terrain setup if hiding a knight is easy for you. Out local meta has been very very slow on the knight-hiding size of terrain. (Hell its hard getting infantry hiding sometimes). Sometimes (not often) there will be one suitable piece in each deployment zone but nothing in the mid table that can really block LOS to a knight.

Size-wise both the Bloodthister and Lord of Change wings are a bit taller than an Imperial Knight (and less compact in pose). Propbably on par or a little taller than a knight with turret..
Great Unclean One and Keeper of Secrets are a little shorter than Knights.
Regardless, they are at least the same size category as a knight, which is a major factor in limiting their use.


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 blackmage wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
no because BT DIE...

That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.

Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.

A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for

sadly can grant you that are more than 1 army that deliver 16+ wounds to a BT in a turn, shot+psychic and if not enough you are finish in melee, LOD had a -4 to hit outside 12" bubble -3 inside the bubble and -2 in melee, basically same inv.save and better armor save, and just 160pts, totally a different level.

Its an interesting thought - just positioning him as a boolet sponge in front of a character blob, but I agree there are too many armies that can do wounds in more than one phase...

It's the wings. Bloodthirster/Lord of Change wings aren't just really tall, they're REALLY wide. Flyrants have the same problem.

Knights are big too but all of their little add-on bits generally conform to the area inside the oval footprint of their base, so if you angle it right you can often hide them behind a large building. The widest part of a knight is usually at the bottom edge of its shoulder armor.

With Bloodthirsters, Lords of Change, Magnus, Mortarion, and flyrants, their widest point is near the very top of their wingtips. Often higher up than a knight is tall.

Buildings tend to get thinner the higher up you go, so if your model's widest point is also its tallest you're going to have a really hard time covering up every last bit. There's always an extra wingtip poking out from behind that just won't fit.

if rumors are correct maybe wings will not count anymore
@Trasvi if you want a bullet sponge use a LOC with impossible robes, -1 to hit and -1 damage, it doesnt kill much but add bit of psychich power and its durable.

9e battalion rules revealed. Soup is getting nerfed hard. Does not look great for daemons due to our heavy reliance on soup but maybe the points overhaul will help.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/?fbclid=IwAR3X4Peve0Kba8YmQjAOzgio6WLpmTqhCkWK-J52PhrGeovzx8qpSM-19JY

I actually like the new rules a bit. Take Khorne for example, DS in, kill one unit or two then die because Of fall back. Now we got a stratagem too kill the unit(s) who fall back at least.

And I do like that it cost cp for having more detachments but yes, it will benefit knights and elite armies the most but how about fighting a Knight list with no guards? I do want to see more fluffy list (even tho I don’t know anything about the fluff) instead of thinking about what too soup just for more cp.

Taking daemons and some csm with points left over for summoning of the other gods (your csm. Character).

 slave.entity wrote:
9e battalion rules revealed. Soup is getting nerfed hard. Does not look great for daemons due to our heavy reliance on soup but maybe the points overhaul will help.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/?fbclid=IwAR3X4Peve0Kba8YmQjAOzgio6WLpmTqhCkWK-J52PhrGeovzx8qpSM-19JY

i think is a good thing after all, maybe we can hope will not see some abominations like some armies in 8th edition, start with 1 free battalion is nice, then up to you add more and pay extra cp. It take back bit to 5th edition. Demons might play mono faction, most depend by the rest of rules and how codex will be in 9th

 lindsay40k wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
no because BT DIE...

That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.

Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.

A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for

Yeah... I would think that your oppoenent would have to tailor the list in order to accomplish that.

Frankly, I'm excited that the BT can get 2+" charge... just DS him in turn 2. In doing so, not sure that the 8W cap would be worth it.

 whembly wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
no because BT DIE...

That’s what I was saying before. 8W damage cap/phase works on a 16W T-poser if you can avoid taking 8 mortal wounds from psychic whilst standing in front of your army. Which you really can’t guarantee without swim heavy Psyker investment of your own, making it a swingy gimmick.

Even if you can make it work, if you lose first turn, you’re still getting deleted T2 and then everything’s unloading on your flock of Daemon Princes.

A fun gimmick to try in the garage, and a gatekeeper to many Tau and Necron gunlines, but not worth buying a BT for

Yeah... I would think that your oppoenent would have to tailor the list in order to accomplish that.

Frankly, I'm excited that the BT can get 2+" charge... just DS him in turn 2. In doing so, not sure that the 8W cap would be worth it.

for me the only potenial use for him

An exalted BT has an 82% chance of making a 7" charge out of DS assuming CP reroll or locus of rage. That is pretty reasonable.

 slave.entity wrote:
An exalted BT has an 82% chance of making a 7" charge out of DS assuming CP reroll or locus of rage. That is pretty reasonable.

still to see what ppls will play in 9th, seems like GW want make model cost more (cultist 6pts intercessors 20pt) so we can hope players will not field 200 cultists, or a charge from DS is useless because you charge a screen and nothing more, i realy wish we play less models, that open much more opportunities.